posted
The whole Sean/Shvaughn thing was a shock to me and I thought the pro-fem thing was kind of... But it didn't prove that Jan was gay. It proved that gender was unimportant to him. What mattered was a person's soul, not their genetalia. I thought that fit in with Jan's personality perfectly.
On the other hand, by creating Bounty, TMK took a character that I didn't care for at all and made her interesting to me. I liked Bounty much more than I ever did Dawny and I liked it when Dawny made it back to the team. I think, given a little more time to be shown and developed, she would have come through as a stronger, yet humbled and more mature, character. I liked the wings, but their loss didn't rock my world.
posted
Oh, and for the record, I like much of the TMK era. This Sean/Shvaughn thing, the Proty/Garth thing, and the Dawny mutilation were the negatives for sure!!
-------------------- Craig C.
- Time travel stories are told in chronillogical order.
From: Santa Ana, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
And the scene where Lydda heads to the nursery where all the Legion-babies are sleeping and dims the lights in order to protect them from the invaders was a wonderful handling of her character that I've never forgotten.
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: And the scene where Lydda heads to the nursery where all the Legion-babies are sleeping and dims the lights in order to protect them from the invaders was a wonderful handling of her character that I've never forgotten.
You right about that, Lash. Although this era is my least favorite, that was one of the best uses of Lydda ever.
-------------------- "Hey Jim! Get Mon out of the Zone!! And...when do we get Condo back?"
From: Paragon City on patrol | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I loved this story- particularly as it fit with the later #50. However, I've always seen why people who were/are fond of Shvaughn Erin would be pissed off by it.
Still, I think it stands on its own merits. In fact, I think it's the most fully realized depiction of the adult/teenage SW6 Legionnare counterparts. There was the later issue that showed all (or most) of them meeting-- but each pair only got a panel or two. The Ultra Boys and Violets stood out here, but none of them got the attention that the Jans got in this issue.
I think I love this issue mostly for the way young Jan is characterized-- and for the hints about adult Jan... hints I'd been convinced of before I ever encountered any sort of Legion fandom suspicions.
Adult Jan's telling of the 'trommite cub' story to distract Shvaughn while SW6 Jan dealt with the shock of killing several Dominators was beautifully presented, I thought. There's a sadness underlying the dialogue and art that I find almost palpable.
As for Sean/Shvaughn and the profem-- in the text piece at the end, Sean infers that the use of profem (and it's 'opposite' promen) was a sort of underground counter-culture kind of thing popular in a specific group (the Freebie commune of Tupelo!?- started by Matthew Lesko, perhaps:)), in which Sean found himself after leaving home.
The way Sean wrote about Duar, his homeworld, made it seem a bastion of intolerance in the 30th century. At least Sean's immediate family and community were described that way.
I always got the impression that Sean would've taken the profem even if he'd never heard the words 'Element Lad'- in fact, he did start taking it before he could've had any reasonable expectation of meeting Jan Arrah.
Which isn't to say that it still doesn't make Shvaughn stalkerish- but no more so than Night Girl.
I agree that this isn't a perfect continuation of the lady cop featured in the Levitz years- but after all, this was a rebooted Legion before there was an 'official' reboot. Everything from the moment Mon-el punched the Time Trapper on was a whole new continuity. After all, I never read any Adventure stories featuring Kid Quantum or Laurel Gand, did you?
I don't believe *that* Shvaughn Erin would've come from such a sad, demeaning background (and I don't mean the gender-switch) any more than I think that the Levitz Sun Boy would've become such a scum.
posted
I'm sorry, Lash LaRue, but I do have to demur from your use of "maligned" here. That word usually goes beyond evidence that's brought to bear, to suggest dishonest or improper motives on the part of those who make criticisms -- at least, to me.
It's perfectly legitimate to suggest that TMK didn't have the skills to carry out stories based upon 30 years of Legion continuity. (Remember, the after-Mordruverse, before-Zero-Hour stories were asserted to be part of that continuity.) Destruction of what came before, in serial storytelling, is always a far easier narrative task than preservation of or building upon what came before.
TMK may have been adept at constant destruction, but it's quite reasonable to step back further and contend that this injured or ashcanned much of the Legion's legacy, especially as to many character nuances. That's what happened with Shvaughn Erin and ProFem -- or, at least, many of us have been saying this in some manner or another.
To say that making this point ends up "maligning" TMK's work is to suggest -- to me -- that it isn't reasonable to even make such critiques in the first place, or that it's done out of improper motives, or both.
This may be my rhetorical hair-splitting -- often my foible, I admit -- but I don't see how I and others frame this as being any less worthy of discussion than how Todd does such framing above. I wanted to rule this possibility out.
From: Starhaven Consulate, City of Angels | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: I'm sorry, Lash LaRue, but I do have to demur from your use of "maligned" here. That word usually goes beyond evidence that's brought to bear, to suggest dishonest or improper motives on the part of those who make criticisms -- at least, to me.
It's perfectly legitimate to suggest that TMK didn't have the skills to carry out stories based upon 30 years of Legion continuity. (Remember, the after-Mordruverse, before-Zero-Hour stories were asserted to be part of that continuity.) Destruction of what came before, in serial storytelling, is always a far easier narrative task than preservation of or building upon what came before.
TMK may have been adept at constant destruction, but it's quite reasonable to step back further and contend that this injured or ashcanned much of the Legion's legacy, especially as to many character nuances. That's what happened with Shvaughn Erin and ProFem -- or, at least, many of us have been saying this in some manner or another.
To say that making this point ends up "maligning" TMK's work is to suggest -- to me -- that it isn't reasonable to even make such critiques in the first place, or that it's done out of improper motives, or both.
This may be my rhetorical hair-splitting -- often my foible, I admit -- but I don't see how I and others frame this as being any less worthy of discussion than how Todd does such framing above. I wanted to rule this possibility out.
that's your opinion mr Bird, and like arseholes everyone has one.
IMO opinion it was the best era because they trashed the history and somehow made the characters that were becoming parodies more human, vulnerable, believeable and interesting , but hey if you want 2 dimensional teenage fantasties carry on ignoring that era... it's all a moot point now anyway isn't it?
Gawd, I miss character driven plot lines. Has Rokk or Vi EVER been more interesting than when they were in Giffen's hands? No, I didn't think so either....
From: home sweet home... unless i'm posting from work | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
{ that's your opinion mr Bird, and like arseholes everyone has one. }
You know, S.B., I don't make such content-less swipes against anyone. I bring up some genuine point in response, at least, even if it's only stressing some point of discussion mores. (As it was here.) Why did you even bother to quote what I wrote?
Please call me Grey or Steve, by the way. "Mister," here, is condescending.
{[...] but hey if you want 2 dimensional teenage fantasies carry on ignoring that era ... }
I could fully respond about how I don't at all "ignore" that era -- rather, I know a great deal about it, and I detest it -- but making that distinction appears to be pointless. Whatever you may want here, it's not discussion.
From: Starhaven Consulate, City of Angels | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: Whatever you may want here, it's not discussion.
that'll be two of us then yeah?
oh and the Mr Bird comment wasn't meant to be snide, there's a banter that has developed amongst my friends were when we're "discussing" something that both sides feel strongly about we call each other Mr, or Ms, "Insert- Surname-Here", apologies for that, re-reading it it did look condescending didn't it? oops! not meant I assure you....
From: home sweet home... unless i'm posting from work | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think 'much-maligned' is a pretty apt description of how this story is viewed- and written about in reader comments. Often quite dismissively, I think.
There's more to this story than the profem plot surprise-- no one ever comments on that.
Frankly, the responses have always surprised me, a bit-- though not that it puts me in a minority (of those who like this issue), as that's something that recurs for me again and again... sigh.
It's distressing to me that those who would be in 'my' minority are dwindling more and more. I'm sure those that identify themselves as 'Element Lad' fans would be as split about the events of this issue as is the 'wider' readership... but fewer and fewer of us are around.
No matter what the various new surveys reveal, Element Lad was the character most often voted leader or deputy leader by the fans. I'm afraid most of the folks that voted for him in those reader elections are long gone-- some chased off by the lackluster way Jan was presented in the reboot, others by the reboot itself, and more by the events of LEGION LOST.
The optimistic, hopeful part of me is encouraged by recent preview images and solicits... but, frankly, the older, wiser me realizes the boom might be at the lowering point.
posted
[MLLASH] { Now, Grey! You're putting far too much importance to my snappy alliterative patter! }
You're probably right. I wouldn't have worked well as a lyrics collaborator with, say, Cole Porter. {g}
Still, either supporting or criticizing TMK seems to bring out strong emotions, as Fat Cramer brings up in another thread -- so it's hard to assume that words about them are chosen without their being well-aimed. (Or that they're simply for alliteration.) Well, better those poles of interest than not being passionate about the era at all, I would say.
From: Starhaven Consulate, City of Angels | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
[Mystery Lad] {[...] There's more to this story than the profem plot surprise -- no one ever comments on that. }
Yes, there is -- but the ProFem concoction and what it says about Shvaughn create the plot device, and an utterly faulty one, on which the story turns. By analogy, we wouldn't say that Christopher Reeve's riding accident meant that his central nervous system was invalidated ... but he remains no less incapacitated.
{[...] not that it puts me in a minority (of those who like this issue), as that's something that recurs for me again and again ... sigh. }
Why should this depress you, particularly? As long as you are settled in your own mind about it? And as long as others, and you, remain persuadable about such matters?
Having others who agree with you shouldn't be a prime mover. I'd prefer that many others agree with me about the value and virtues of Dawnstar (and a good number do), but that doesn't affect how I see her as a character and artistic icon.
{[...] I'm sure those that identify themselves as 'Element Lad' fans would be as split about the events of this issue as is the 'wider' readership ... but fewer and fewer of us are around. }
I'm not sure I see a basis for your melancholy. If anything, I see more self-identified Jan Arrah fans among Legion net.partisans every year.
Where this has been diluted recently is, as you say, with DnA having turned him into a cosmic genocidal maniac. Many have shied away from this, including you. Perhaps some have also felt they thus can't or shouldn't care about Jan as such any more, either. I doubt that they were strong partisans of him in the first place.
In any event, Jan appears to be positioned for near-term resurrection as something else.
From: Starhaven Consulate, City of Angels | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
