posted
I loved the concept, it gave a comic that I had grown up with the chance to grow up....
The idea that we no longer knew everything to do with the character was brilliant! How badly did they NEED that growing space?
The knowledge that the characters would be greatly changed (as ANYONE between early twenties to late twenties will go through) was inspired!
I could go on but I'll finish where I started - I loved it!
From: home sweet home... unless i'm posting from work | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Somebody: After all, if there had been no 5YG, there would have been no Superboy Edict from Carlin.
Wasn't Superboy and pocket universe still a part of continuity at the end of Magic Wars? If there was no gap, why would the edict have not happened?
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: Serial tales usually show growth and slow changes in a core group of characters. They're typically open-ended, without any definite broad destination shaping the characters' choices. Everything possible is left open to continue with the same characters indefinitely. Nothing about their lives is irrevocable, which rules out deaths or absences of key characters.
Every one of these aspects works against a "gap." As I noted above, it encourages arrogance on the writers'/creators' parts, relying on the characters' growth and continual change which we, the audience, have in part not seen. It's an unearned basis for storytelling, in a sense. It's not done to save time, as with jumping ahead in a closed-end play or movie or miniseries. Showing the passage or effects of time is the essence of a serial story.
Based on your premise (paragraph one) the conclusion (paragraph two) seems TO ME forced. It is okay to show growth and change in a serial fashion but skipping a few years is arrogant?
Perhaps I'm not getting your point.
Zero Hour CHANGED histories and I could easily understand the "arrogance" (and necessity) in that but a story skipping over even exciting possiblities doesn't seem to me analogous.
By analogy, wouldn't the Projectra/KK/Fero Lad flashback story preceeding Universo Project be considered arrogant as it filled in personality details not previously displayed? If so, is this arrogance necessarily bad?
From my reader's perspective I see flashback and skipping time frame reading the same (considering both are a thousand years in the future ). Is there a reading perspective I could bring to the two cases to make them impinge differently?
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Why don't we just make it a 50-year gap, and have everyone be dead?
I suppose though, that it was worth trying once--or for reincarnations of cancelled series.
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Somebody: After all, if there had been no 5YG, there would have been no Superboy Edict from Carlin.
Wasn't Superboy and pocket universe still a part of continuity at the end of Magic Wars? If there was no gap, why would the edict have not happened?
Because Carlin hated what Giffen was doing and demanded all Super-related characters (including Mon-El, because of the "El") be retroactively removed from Legion history completely. (After it was done,it was pointed out to Carlin that the Pocket Universe was a major part of Superman's history - because of Matrix/Supergirl and the execution of the PU Kryptonians, and SBoy was reinserted to the minimal possible extent)
Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sanity or Madness?: Seems to me like a lot of people here can't seem to grasp the concept of... well... a concept, preferring instead to discuss THE Five Year Gap.
I haven't actually read any TMK issues, but frankly the concept of "Big Time Jump" stinks to me. Develop a situation, don't just make Huge Changes™ because you can.
It's hard not to fall into the trap of discussing the only 5 year gap most of us know.
I'm trying to think of other instances - outside of comics, 'cause I don't know any in comics. Most serial novels (like mystery series) seem to keep pretty much to the same flow of time that readers are experiencing i.e., the characters may age from year to year, but hardly faster than the readers themselves and usually more slowly.
The "Rabbit" books by John Updike (I think?) - Run Rabbit Run, Rabbit Redux, etc. may have been an exception but, alas, I never read them. I think the main character, Rabbit, jumped ahead in quite a few years with each book.
It's quite a different approach from telling a story about an old man, for example, with flashbacks to his younger years. There we are given clues or explanations from the past which help to interpret someone's behaviour in the present. The story is in the present; it's not a series that follows a plot and characters, then jumps several years leaving a true "gap" with unknown, reader-fill-in-the-blanks.
posted
A few other instances of a "gap" come to mind. DOONESBURY, for one. Gary Trudeau took a year off, and when he came back, 10 YEARS had gone by. This was no doubt the model Keith was following, and I'm surprised no one's mentioned it yet.
There's also GRIMJACK, where, between issues-- no break at all!-- the book jumped 200 years forward and introduced the reincarnation of its hero.
And of course, there's STAR TREK, where the 1st movie picks up a coyuple years later-- but the 2nd movie picks up 10 YEARS after the 1st one!
Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Or the Next Generation picking up 80 years after the first series. TV does it quite a bit. The new season of 24 will be picking up 3 years (IIRC) after last season's finale.
posted
I wouldn't count Next Gen - that's more akin to the present day/Legiontime DC split than the 5YG. Sure, there's the odd survivor, but then, as has been shown (and, to some extent, complained about in recent years), there are DC-present survivors in Legiontime too.
Another example is the Three Musketeers books, where the second book is 20 years after the first, and the next 10 years further down the road - though I'm not sure how close this is to the Legion 5YG model.
Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Babylon 5 skipped 20 years between its second to last episode and the final episode. Of course, this was planned all along, so it may not be the same was what's being discussed.
Time jumps can be useful. They evoke a sense of mystery: How did our characters wind up here? They can also be used to jumpstart creativity in a fading series, as has been mentioned. So, as a concept, I don't mind time jumps. Like Lash, I tried it with some of my characters once, and was surprised at how some of them turned out and what they'd been doing in the interim.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think the CONCEPT was daring and innovative. However, one reason it appealed to me is that it was like my own "10 year gap" from comics. Just as I aged from the last time I read comics, so did the Legion. I'm not sure I would have been as positive if I'd still been reading them the whole time, and I was disappointed with not knowing WTF happened during the Gap. It also seemed like the dissatisfaction with the Gap led to ZH, and my opinions on THAT are well known, and unprintable.
Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have nothing aginst the concept of "the gap". I think it's just as valid a storytelling tool as "meanwhile..." or flashbacks. Why shouldn't a creator be able to use it? You can debate whether or not you felt it was done well, or whether or not you liked it happening to the Legion, but I thought TMK was great and the gap as a storytelling tool made for "must read" stories, to find out what had happened in the interim.
From: New York, NY | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by profh0011: A few other instances of a "gap" come to mind. DOONESBURY, for one. Gary Trudeau took a year off, and when he came back, 10 YEARS had gone by.
Ooh, Ooh, Funky Winkerbean did the same. The reasoning as I recall was to get into more adult concepts without throwing out great characters in which the readers and Batiuk had vested. It worked wonderfully with some great storys being the result.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lonesome Dove: The Series had a three year gap between seasons one and two. Like LSH, it was much darker in the second season. I think there was some backlash over it, but I wasn't watching during the first season, so I'm not sure.
There was quite a gap between the regular Amethyst series and the four issue mini that followed.
I think in general a multi year gap works best if there's been a gap from the readers point of view as well. If a series has been canceled for five years it would probably feel strange to pick off right where the story left off. When there's only a month or two in between, however, I think the writers are taking a big risk.
-------------------- arachne3003.deviantart.com Current Obsession: Birds of Prey/Secret Six
From: Canada | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't really mind a jump like that. In other media, I don't think that it's even an issue. The Indiana Jones movies had gaps between each of them, and weren't even made in a chronological sequence. But part of the reason I think we accept the gaps in that case is that the character remains essentially the same throughout. Where I don't think a gap works well is when the resumption has characters and situations so far removed from the prior incarnation that it's obvious it was simply a house-cleaning exercise that allowed the creators to hew to their own vision without having to do a lot of tedious plot/character development to move the storylines where the creators want them to go. I think that unless there's a clear plan to at least reveal the crucial details from the gap, then it can get frustrating for the audience. I think that comic books are a pretty chancy medium to do a gap, simply because most readers are accustomed to having "continuity" in which a pretty linear flow of information about the characters is laid out. Similarly, I don't think a gap would work well in an afternoon soap opera because the viewers are used to a straightforward flow of events. Other series, especially serial dramas, frequently have a gap every year from the end of one season to the next. "ER" is a series that comes to mind, depending on whether or not a season ends on a cliffhanger type of episode.
From: Douglasville, GA | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
). Is there a reading perspective I could bring to the two cases to make them impinge differently?
