quote:Originally posted by Kid Quislet: Hey, the Bierbaums were there when Giffen was running loose, as were the DC editors. Anyone of them could have, and should have said "Hey Keith, your mangling of these characters is destroying a tradition built up over 30 years. Why don't we try something Constructive rather than Destructive?" Instead, they all stood around and watched the inevitable sinking of what was previously a solid ship.
no offense, but it's always easir to say what others should have done, and it's always easier to gauge that after the fact. We have no idea what it seemed like at the time, or what all the factors they had to balance. DC has a long history of treating creators (especially those less-than-star-level) like crap. They may well have done as much as they could have; we do not know.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
We do know that they lobbied against some of Keith's ideas. The whole Shvaughn-is-a-man thing, for example, was their way of saving her life when Giffen wanted to kill her to amp up the Roxxas-Jan feud.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Let me start by saying that I hold the "Five Year Later" Legion in very high regard. The Rebirth and Terra Mosiac story arcs are, perhaps, some of the best comic books ever published. They wouldn't have been what they are without the Bierbaums. Giffen was the mad genius. Tom and Mary were the heart and soul. It wouldn't have worked without the combination.
These stories are unique. They couldn't have been written about any other characters - not the JLA, not the Avengers, not the Teen Titans, and certainly not with a team of newly introduced heroes. It had to be the Legion. It was the Legion. It was the story of the adults that the Legion came to be, and I was so proud of how they turned out.
The Adventure Era laid the foundation. It gave us this crazy 30th century, these fun characters, their unique interactions, and that heart that Tom and Mary later capatalized on.
The Bates/Conway/Cockrum/Grell era modernized the whole thing. This era made the Legion the cool kids who were quickly growing up.
The Levitz era was truly about growing up, and growing in general. It was a slow boil. These kids and young adults went through a hell of a lot. The tragedies were starting to take their toll but they tried hard to hold onto the hope and optimism. The stakes got higher and higher. By the end of the Levitz run each Legionnaire had grown and changed. They had unique personalities. Much more so than any other super hero team. These personalities were not forced. They felt natural. We knew these people. They were ready for the next step.
Giffen came along with a bold vision that would take them quickly to that next step. Remember, we never really get to see comic book characters age. The problem with that is that we had just seen the Legion grow up. There had to be a next chapter. Giffen wanted to throw all of the old conventions out the window and drop us right into the middle of the Legion's adulthood. He brought us a more frightning universe. He hit us over the head with the intervening tragedies. He dropped us right into the middle of a terrible war and Earth's darkest hours. It was complex. It was complicated. We had to work damn hard to figure it all out. It was layered like an onion. We had to peel it and pull it apart. When we finally got to the middle, there were the Bierbaums with the Legion's heart. Tom and Mary knew how proud Rokk was. They knew how much Jo valued loyalty and a good time, but how heavy his burden was. They knew Imra's worries. They knew Vi's guilt. They also knew her strength. They knew how deeply Ayla could love. They knew Mysa's vulnerablities and courage. They knew how much we all depended on Brainy and that he relished that despite his outward appearance. Most of all they knew the Legion wasn't just any old super hero team. They were family.
Giffen's vision would have floundered without Tom and Mary. Tom and Mary's later stories weren't that compelling without Giffen's madness. But for a couple of years there the chemistry was just right, and I am glad that I was able to be there for it.
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: We do know that they lobbied against some of Keith's ideas. The whole Shvaughn-is-a-man thing, for example, was their way of saving her life when Giffen wanted to kill her to amp up the Roxxas-Jan feud.
And in doing so, they condemned her to a fate worse than death (IMO). Turning her whole motivation for changing sex and joining the Science Police into a crush on Element Lad made the character seem foolish and superficial. The writers' so-called understanding of transsexual psychology goes beyond ignorant into barbaric! Worst of all is the implication in later issues that she can only prove her true worth as an SP by living as a man.
Well said. Wonderful analysis of the Legion as it grew up and how "Five Years Later" fit into their overall arc.
I never really had a problem with the stories TMK told. I mainly disliked the way in which they were told, some of which was Giffen's fault (nine-panel grids, incomprehensible artwork), and some of it DC's (the rewriting of the Legion's history, which gutted the whole purpose of having them grow up, in my opinion. It's hard to believe these were the same characters when you had "Valor" and "Andromeda" running around instead of Superboy, Mon-El, and Supergirl).
But, certainly, the seriousness of TMK and TM stories enabled the writers to show much deeper sides of the characters. I just re-read # 39 last night, which contains a very touching scene between Vi and Ayla. Ayla tries to remain positive in the aftermath of the earth's destruction, and Vi scolds her for not being affected by all the deaths. When Ayla breaks down and cries, saying that she has to be strong, and Vi replies that she doesn't have to be strong all the time, it moved me.
Likewise, the nightmares and hallucinations that other characters experience are all too real. It particularly hit home when Brainy replays his attempts to save earth, wondering if he could have done anything differently. How many of us have done the same thing in the face of tragedy?
It's hard to imagine any Legion writers besides Tom and Mary pulling this story off.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Whatever the dynamic betwee Giffen and the Bierbaums, it resulted in two issues i consider nearly perfect stand alone issues, #5 Proclamation (Mordruverse) and #38 Requiem.
#38 I thought would have made a great starting story for a new non-legion comic but on second thoughts I wonder if I would have been as affected if not for the emotions shown by characters that I was attached to. This was probably the only time I like the O'Ryan character.
Of Bierbaum only, I really enjoyed Beginnings and All ME Lad issue.
Most displeasure I had with issues past #38 probably had to do with me not particularly enjoying Sprouse or Immonem.
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Stealth: And in doing so, they condemned her to a fate worse than death (IMO). Turning her whole motivation for changing sex and joining the Science Police into a crush on Element Lad made the character seem foolish and superficial. The writers' so-called understanding of transsexual psychology goes beyond ignorant into barbaric! Worst of all is the implication in later issues that she can only prove her true worth as an SP by living as a man.
Young boys and girls often do comparably foolish things for their romantic idols. (It is mentioned in the text pages that Sean was 15 when he ran away from home and that he started taking Profem shortly after.)
LSH # 31 is less about a man who becomes a woman than about learning to accept oneself as one is. This theme is mirrored in what happens to young Jan (the SW6 Legionnaire), who inadvertently kills some Dominators in the story and has trouble living with it. The scenes of young Jan grieving over his actions are deliberately captioned with older Jan's narration of the "Trommite cub" story. The Trommite cub fails to accept the truth of his father's wisdom that killing others is akin to killing oneself. So he kills the father and is shunned by his mother, animals, and townsfolk. In effect, he "destroys" himself by losing out on any chance of friendship. This is certainly what young Jan must have feared would happen to him. (Fortunately, it didn't, as his comrades conclude that the killings were accidental.)
Likewise, Sean "destroys" himself by trying to become something he is not (a woman). Like young Jan, though, he gets a second chance. It was very brave of Sean to realize he needed to make it on his own without Jan's help. In a way, he embraces "death" -- but the death of a false identity. How many of us would willingly give up our own dependence on someone or something (a drug, perhaps?), knowing that it will result in the "death" of who we are, but may lead to greater growth?
The idea of a long-time, favorite female character turning out to be a man may be rankle some fans (and I, too, was prepared to dislike this story until I read it), but TMK made it work. Like Sean, we're not supposed to be too comfortable with what happens to him; like him, we're not supposed to even "like" it that he (or we) have to go through this difficult period of adjustment. But, like him, we have to be brave and face the truths of our lives.
To me, that's a much better use of the character than a meaningless death from which he/she would likely have recovered, anyway.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
It's not a portrait of transsexualism that I find believeable. No real-life transsexual that I've ever been aware of, not even those who begin the transition in their teens (and I've read lots of case studies) would do it just because they have a crush on a male celebrity. I reiterate, TMK's so-called understanding of transgender psychology goes beyond ignorance into barbarism.
And furthermore, this doesn't jibe with Levitz's portrayal of Shvaughn. She had no angst, and she didn't act like she had anything to prove. That's what made her such an appealing character to myself and many others.
posted
If you see Sean as a representative of transsexuals, then maybe it doesn't work. But if you see him as a unique character who had easier access to gender modification than we do now, and whose family history (his parents came from a world where women were women and men were men) had predisposed him to be ashamed of himself, then maybe his actions are more understandable.
Young girls starve themselves because they want to look like the women they see on TV. Young boys take steroids so they can compete with larger, stronger athletes. People of both sexes and all ages take drugs, drink, and engage in other behavior that is harmful to themselves just to fit in with some social order at school or work. Viewed in this larger context, do Sean's actions seem so unrealistic?
[ June 27, 2007, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
You make a good point. I have a great deal of difficulty putting this in the larger context you've provided. I feel that TMK took a very sensitive subject and handled it with a tremendous lack of sensitivity (to say nothing of poor research, if indeed there was any research done at all, which I doubt). The plight of the transgendered is a cause near to my heart, because hatred towards transgenders crosses every line: people of every race, gender, creed and sexual preference have persecuted transgendered people, and I do my part in trying to conquer this last frontier of intolerance. TMK's story does a disservice to everybody.
posted
I understand where you're coming from, and, certainly, greater sensitivity and understanding needs to occur in all of us for issues such a transgenderism.
But it's easy to criticize writers for lack of research (I know I've done this myself) while overlooking the fact that they tried to address a taboo issue at all and also to present it in a sympathetic light. Sean/Shvaughn isn't psychotic, or a villain, or someone whose problem is easily resolved. Nor is he a stereotype (look, for example, at representations of gay or black characters throughout the history of comics). To me, he comes off as a complex character whose decision to embrace his true identity is admirable.
Oh, and your point about Levitz's portrayal of Shvaughn is well taken. I haven't read those issues in awhile, but it is common for the personalities of characters to change from writer to writer. Tenz's humorous personality, for example, didn't develop until much later.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
It's the repercussions of a story like this that worry me. Intolerant people (especially intolerant parents of children with gender issues) are likely to point to this story as proof that their ignorant and potentially harmful opinions are correct. Think how much more the children may suffer because of stories like this. I believe that if writers are going to deal with an extremely sensitive topic, they have a responsibility to consider what effect it might have. TMK -- and for that matter, Neil Gaiman when he dealt with the topic in Sandman -- were irresponsible, and therefore earn nothing from me but scorn.
posted
It's been my experience that ignorant people point to anything to justify their harmful opinions. Look at how many people use the Bible to justify slavery, racism, hatred of homosexuals, hatred of Jews, etc.
In the 1970s, it was said that half of the audience of "All in the Family" saw Archie Bunker as a buffoon; the other half saw him as a hero.
So, while it's right to be concerned about ignorant people spreading hatred, their opinions are of little value in discussing the merits of a story. Writers must tell the story that needs to be told, regardless of who is going to interpet it in whatever way. If writers spend their time second guessing how their audience will react, they will never write anything of consequence.
It's also hard for me to envision parents using this story as some sort of message against their children. For one thing, parents who discriminate are not likely to take a comic book seriously. For another, this story is too sophisticated (meaning it doesn't have enough action) for most kids to want to read, unless they are fairly old and have already formed their own opinions.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
My distaste for what Giffen did to the Legion during 5YL isn't hindsight - I was actively opposed (as a regular reader) to a lot of what was going on at the time. The Shvaughn/Profem debacle was the last straw, as I cancelled my subscription to the Legion after that for the first time since I started as a seven year old with the Superboy back up stories.
I totally agree with you, Stealth. The Shvaughn episode shouldn't have happened, and I contend that other events going on as well should have at least been questioned, if not totally opposed. I cancelled my subscription - an unthinkable action for me at the time - but I acted in the best way I could. The Bierbaums and the DC editors had greater influence. They didn't do much of anything until it was already out of hand. I still hold them accountable.
-------------------- "My dance card was getting fuller than a contestant's at a Jandan shurg-off." - Exnihil, The Lost Klordny
From: Frederick, MD | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: LSH 40Anyhoo, the big focus of the issue is the official first meeting between the Adult LSH and their young counterparts on the SW6 LEGIONNAIRES team, and it is an emotional, stirring meeting.
The Jo/Jo/Tinya scenes are heartbreaking in this issue, and get me every time.
Great, great issue with tons of little moments.
Shame on them for Squire Burroughs though.
Jerry--I enjoyed reading your description of how TMK, especially T&M fit into Legion lore. Well said.
Blockade Boy--I agree pretty much about #5 and #38. Two pretty much perfect issues. I reread #5 all the time because its just so damn well done.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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