The Shadow Lass thread where there are several good comments about the v4 Umbra got me to thinking that now that we have a bit of distance from the last incarnation of the Legion I think people are starting to lighten up on the negatives about the team.
So...what did you really like about the DnA Legion? Starting with a shocking and very dark story about The Blight we saw the Legion get beaten down and and mind controlled and that story led to the total destruction of the Legion we knew and led on into Legion Lost, Legion Worlds and a relaunch of The Legion.
Characters changed a bit, the UP changed, Legion World was created and Lightning Lad was killed and resurrected (as usual). What happened in here that really lit up the Legion for you during that 3 or 4 years of our favorite futuristic teenagers?
Was it Brainiac 5's spikey hair? MO'nel's buff pecs and heroic attitude? The Oversight Watch? A Batman villian a thousand years from now?
We've hashed over the things we didn't like about DnA for a long long time now so now let's share the things we DID like. _______________________
In a way I sort of liked the lack of depth to their run on the Legion. There was a more ordinary comic bookish approach to the team and there was action action ACTION all the time. It was a different sort of Legion for me, more cliffhangers than usual and a bit more in the way of bloody handed battles and property damage just for the hell of it. Something of a "What If the Legion were a Marvel Book" than most people go for when they write the LSH. There was a lot of energy in that first couple of years. Yeah, they were kind of shallow in the long run but there was quite a bit of really interesting work there for a while.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Legion World.
The ideas raised in the Robotica storyline.
Brainy's Spiky hair, for sure.
Dream Girl's upgrade into Khund-trained advisor.
Invisible Kid's portrayal (which began before DnA took over - but they continued/reinforced it).
The return of Karate Kid.
Saturn Girl's diner dream.
Posted by Star Boy on :
The redefinition of Thom as a gravity-wielding hero with fine and powerful control, from a vague "i make things heavy" guy with erratic Daxamite powers.
And Dream Girl as a Khund-trained sleepless precog warrior! Posted by Blacula on :
DnA got me reading the Legion again after PMS had driven me away and there were a lot of things I liked about their take on the team.
* I really liked Legion of the Damned. It was such a different type of Legion story and I think their portrayal of the few desperate surviving Legionnaires facing insurmountable odds was a very good one. It felt more like a War comic than a Legion comic and I think that was appropriate. (I also loved Coipel from his very first panel so that helped.)
* I was amazed at how much they made me like Brainiac 5, a character I've never cared for before or since. Dropping that stupid .1 was a good start.
* Dropping Thunder from the team was a good move IMO.
* I liked the way they foreshadowed the coming of Robotica years later with their very first Legion story.
* I *LOVED* Legion Lost! IMO this is one of the best Legion stories ever! I loved every twist and turn and surprise and also really liked their take on all them members here - a surprise to me as pretty much all of them were my least faves. My complete love for DnA after this story made their rapid decline, and so soon after, all the harder to bear.
[ July 02, 2005, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: Blacula ]
Posted by Shadow Kid on :
In my opinion, Legion Lost is the second best legion story ever (after GDS 'natch) so DnA get major props for that.
I also liked:
- Olivier Coipel's art. He was just about the first A-grade artist to tackle the legion in maybe ten years
- Their note-perfect characterization of Brainy
- Wildfire's new suit
- Nura as kundish warrior
- Thom's power upgrade
- Luornu as mature, capable leader-ish figure
- Venge and Oversight Watch showed promise as interesting new villains
-Ra's as future president
- That kewl issue where the legion fought the Justice League
I was also very intrigued by the idea of an Saturn Girl/Ultra Boy relationship before it all turned to crap
I really didn't have any problem with DnA's legion until Coipel left. For the most part it was a fun, exciting, intelligent ride.
Posted by Yellow Kid on :
Yeah, thir Nura was one of the best versions yet. Her upgrade was very interesting and showed some serious potential. I loved it when they got to the XS - Star Boy tean up on Xanthu and made a point of saying that XS had grown into her Flash powers. I had really high hopes that she'd become a major player as a Flash level speedster instead of just being super-fast.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
My list:
--Legion Lost was a good story, though I don't think it holds up quite as well in retrospect.
--They made Monstress a compelling character.
--The Kwai and the Progeny were both interesting alien species.
--They fixed Dreamer, and fixed (or at least ignored the problems with) Wildfire.
--At least four of the Legion Worlds issues (#1, #3, #4, #5) were fantastic.
--Interesting new minor villains (Nadir, the Oversight Watch, the gang the Oversight Watch fought)
--Robotica.
--Making the Legion Academy an important part of the Legion universe again.
--The general idea of the Credo story was good, even if the execution was poor.
Posted by Tromium on :
Up until Foundations (which started out great, imo, but didn't deliver at the end), I liked *almost everything*. It was a universe turned upside down.There was danger and surprise at every turn. Anything could happen, and did. It also had an epic sweep and mythological resonance (especially LOST) that had been been missing from the Legion for many years prior. Special kudos to the artists: Olivier Coipel, Chris Batista and Steve Lightle for his guest turns.
The accusation of shallow characterization has some validity if you're a reader whose favorite characters were largely neglected for five years. Quite a few Legionnaires were pushed backstage to make way for the Chosen Ones, i.e., Saturn Girl, Brainy, Ultra Boy, Kid Quantum and a few others on whom the spotlights shone again and again. Yet few can deny the depth of L:LOST and L:WORLDS. There were even some fine character moments in THE LEGION, at least at the outset (think of Lyle and Imra in the Kwaiverse). Personally, I was satisfied with the characterizations, and particularly liked how the writers depicted Brainy, Umbra, Sensor and Dreamer. I loved Shikari to pieces. Though I couldn't abide DnA's Saturn Girl, the diner waitress/Kwaiverse dream issue is among my very favorite stories about her.
I'm a long-time Element Lad fan, so it might come as a surprise that I didn't suffer a stroke when he was transformed into a genocidal monster. Truth be told, the character who went by his name wasn't the Jan I'd known and cared out in the past (Stern & Peyer warped him long before DnA). Still, he was close enough to the "real" Jan that I was moved to tears by his tragedy. I wept for Montress, too, and for Garth, for whom LOST was a great coming-of-age story. It as a cathartic reading experience, and I return to it once or twice a year. It hasn't lost it's punch, imo. I *WAS* outraged to the point of apoplexy by the Jarth thing, but even that feeling subsided in time. At the very end I actually found it perversely funny. My way of coping, I guess. Go figure.
DnA frustrated with their dangling plotlines and overstayed their welcome, but all things considered, it was my kind of Legion. I sorely miss the action now, above all else. In contrast, WaK's so-called "character-driven" stories seem pretty sluggish to me, and the external threats they've created (Lemnos, Terror Firma) come across as mundane compared to cosmic-scale horrors like The Progenitor, Ra's Al Ghul and Robotica.
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
No question in my mind that DnA and Coipel saved the Legion from cancellation. At the start, I found the Damned saga both shocking and compelling in what was happening to my Legion (I was mainly afraid that my favorite characters would be maimed and dragged through the mud a la Giffen and Beirbaums, but thankfully that was not the case). I still think the Blight are the scariest villians the Legion has ever faced, much the way the Dark Circle should be portrayed. The Lost and Legion Worlds stories were also extremely well done, visually and literally the best thing to happen to the Legion in some years. Somehow, DC editors must have gotten too involved or DnA just lost interest in the Legion because the stories for Dream Crime and Foundations were bland, even with the great Batista artwork. DnA fixed Monstress, Wildfire, and Universo, gave us the Progenitor, Robotica, The Blight and CREDO, plus an interesting look at Ra's al Ghul, reintroduced Superboy to the Legion, and gave us a new slant on some Legionnaire characters. All of this will be good enough to remain part of the Legion mythos, no matter how many reboots we suffer through.
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
Aside from Cub, "Jarth" and Terrorformed Kinetix, I pretty much liked all the premises behind DnA's stories. They also brought me back after I had dropped both titles during PMS. The problem was their followthrough. But I did really like:
- The Blight to seriously darken things up, effectively blotting out the Archie-Legion. - they made WILDFIRE a Legionnaire, ignoring his new origin, gave him an interesting new kind of suit (thanks Coipel) and did a great job with his characterization. - Legion Lost - Ra's al Ghul as recurring threat - Legion World - DnA's take on most characters, including Brainy, Mon, Ultra Boy, Triad, Umbra, Invisible Kid, Dreamer, Star Boy, XS, Ferro, Karate Kid, Spark, Kid QII, Shikari and Gates. - They brought back Timberwolf - Dream Crime and Foundations started out good
[ July 02, 2005, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: DrakeB3004 ]
Posted by Jorg-EM on :
I actually didn't care for the Blight story at all.
Legion World was a bit better but I didn't last over 4 issues.
Legion World on the other hand I did like a bit.
And the Legion series was amazing IMHO.
I agree with DrakeB3004. It was a departure from the Archie Legion. (thank god)
So what they retold the Darkseid and Universo stories? The Legion NEEDED that I thought. For all it's worth I thought the actual members were much cooler than the current version who remind me of the Archie Legion a bit.
(Cub and Jarth sucked big time though)
Posted by Jorg-EM on :
I also was impressed with the Shikari and the Kwai. Also liked that they ignored Wildfire's messed up origin.
Posted by Disaster Boy on :
i'll chime in:
i skipped the archie legion, i bout 5yg to legion of the damned. i picke dit up because the art was good and i wanted to see the archie legion get slammed and grow up. i loved coipel's run. legion lost was great. this legion really grew on me.
more good things:
make dream girl kick butt again, khund training etc.
saturn girl being so manipulative.
kinetix being a cop.
umbra's personality.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Another thing was how they made Tinya thoroughly unlikeable (to me, anyways). I've adored, liked or been indifferent to various legionnaires - but Tinya was the first one, not cast as a bad guy/traitor, that I genuinely disliked. If she were real, I'd cross the street when I saw her. Whiney, snippy, judgemental, used Brin, a questionable mother - made worse by her being so pretty ... so that was an interesting characterization, all in all.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I thought they made most of the Legionnaires (at least the ones they actually let speak) incredibly unlikeable. I didn't consider that a good thing, though... Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Like Tromium Crystal, up until Foundations, I liked the majority of what DnA did:
'Legion of the Damned' was a welcome story that really gave the title some energy again. I think Copiel's artwork here was a bit sloppy, but he only got better as time went on. Above all else, DnA made many of the reboot Legionnaires seem like themselves again, Cham being the best example IMO. The follow-up three parter was even better.
'Legion Lost' was good, although I wouldn't put it in my top ten favorite stories like many. I thought it was slow and kinda boring for the first seven or eight issues, and I much prefer "Mutiny of the Legionnaires" from the Silver Age to Lost. Still, the final issues of Lost were excellent and very dramatic, and I didn't mind what happened to Jan, Garth and Monstress, as it all seemed to fit.
I liked that DnA came on board and starting making fast and direct changes to characters that were basically sucking IMO. Thunder left, Monstress gained some depth and then died, and Kid Quantum became interesting (before she started dominating the Legion). The made Wildfire himself again, through ignoring dumb continuity and subtle changes, and they gave Kinetix a nice story in Legion Worlds before they screwed her up later.
Legion Worlds the mini-series was great and showed a lot of promise. The first eighteen issues or so of the regular series were great too. Smaller things I liked:
- Like EDE, the series of minor villains they introduced.
- Triad being an awesome force to reckon with.
- Dreamer going from her post-boot ditz self to a bad ass Khund trained fighter.
- Star Boy being so effective.
- The gradually reformation of the Legion, which was well done. Also, the things they didn't throw in our faces, like Cosmic Boy being his heroic/center of the Legion self, but not taking up pages upon pages to get that across.
- Robotica/Computo/Venge and the questions raised there, especially Brainy's role.
- The huge cosmic scale threats and the action early on. It became too overdone later, but it was awesome when they started. The Proginator and Robotica especially. The Credo had tremendous potential, with great history and continuity that really seemed to flow from previous stories.
There was a tremendous amount of good early on during the first three years of DnA's run, and the Legion was better for them coming on. Around Foundations, however, an editor should have stepped in and starting demanding they make some changes in the direction they were going in.
Posted by Invisible Brainiac on :
I give DNA major props for making me love Umbra and making her more consistent than the Archie Umbra. I also like how Live Wire and XS matured.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
It's hard to believe that it's been a year since DnA's last Legion story (cover dated July 04) and five and a half years since "Legion of the Damned" began (Dec. 99). This period will not go down as one of my favorites in Legion history, in part because even though the last few "Archie Legion" stories were lame, I enjoyed that era. It came closer to capturing the feeling of the early '70s Legion than DnA ever attempted. (And even though I've said repeatedly that I don't want to live in the past, or read about characters who do, I still have a fondness for that era; it's my frame of reference for the Legion. The pre-DnA period captured the feeling of that era while adding much that was new.)
Still, I agree with so many others that LEGION: LOST was DnA's most memorable contribution. It challenged the Legionnaires in ways they had never been challenged before. The smaller cast enabled DnA to develop the heroes' personalities and test each one as an individual -- a trait much missed from their regular series run.
Even the drastic changes DnA made, such as Lightning Lad's sacrifice and Element Lad's transformation, seemed inevitable. DnA understood that being a super-hero is dangerous business, and that heroes sometimes have to pay a terrible price. In some ways, LOST was a coming of age ritual, in the same way that the death of Invisible Kid and the marriage of Bouncing Boy and Duo Damsel accomplished for the earlier Legion.
[ July 02, 2005, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by Mr. Kayak on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Around Foundations, however, an editor should have stepped in and starting demanding they make some changes in the direction they were going in.
if i understood correctly what happened at DC, i think that the problems with DnA's stories happened just when the editor started to push too much with his ideas on the writers. before dream crime, the legion was more a sci-fi book than a super-heroes', and i liked that very much because my vision of the book is also like that.
Posted by MLLASH on :
DnA/Coipel is to the postboot LSH what Cary Bates/Dave Cockrum were to the preboot LSH.
Their tenure saw a rise in sales, saw the Legionnaires get all hot & sexy under Olivier's lucky pencil, and characterization (after LLOST & LWORLDS) was at a minimum, which for me is preferable to crap characterization.
DnA definitely had their favorites, but ocassionally they would do something stellar with one of their non-faves... see Gates' escape/rescue with Brainy giving him a piggyback ride; see Triad deliver the defeating blow to Ra's al Ghul; see SciCop Kenetix (before they clayfaced her. I will never ever ever understand why they did that when they had such a great handle on her personalit-- Feh. No bitching. Sorry.)
And I have not forgtten the energy and momentum THE LEGION had when it debuted. Coipel had become a shining star, cliffhangers left and right, snappy patter everywhere. It was fun.
And I enjoyed their issue with Keith Giffen, too.
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Kayak:
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Around Foundations, however, an editor should have stepped in and starting demanding they make some changes in the direction they were going in.
if i understood correctly what happened at DC, i think that the problems with DnA's stories happened just when the editor started to push too much with his ideas on the writers. before dream crime, the legion was more a sci-fi book than a super-heroes', and i liked that very much because my vision of the book is also like that.
Yeah - for me, the turning point (for the worse) was Superboy's interjection. The rest of L25 was good, but after that, the story became Superboy-centric. It was as if they had a plot, then the editor stepped in, ordered them to use Superboy heavily, and they rewrote the TnT sequence of L25 (which I suspect was originally meant to put Cos on Braal to follow up on the LWorlds Magno issue - notice how all their previous arcs until this one had spun out of LWorlds material) and scrapped the rest of the arc and started again - and it didn't work. Not least since all their plots had to be dropped.
I personally wonder if it was originally meant to be a Valor arc - they'd hinted at making that revelation twice before, after all, in LWorlds 1 and Legion 8, and Batista had said something at a con tied into the adoption of the all-red suit, which came about illogically in L32 in the end - and they crudely rewrote it to use Superboy, which required extra material to introduce Kon, which pushed their own subplots out of the book and/or an editorial edict for "accessibility" made them drop it.
[ July 03, 2005, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Reboot ]
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Probably what made me most enthusiastic about the DnA (and which is probably the best thing about Waid's Legion as well) was the sense of a vision of where they wanted to take the team. In interviews they spoke of the Legion becoming this huge organization, with outposts in both galaxies. I remember them saying that they basically had the series plotted out through #50. Part of the problem with the Archie Legion was it felt like they were just treading water, telling stories but without anything of any importance really happening.
I lost a lot of faith in them when I found out that they apparently didn't really have anything particular in mind with, e.g. the Sharn Nux/Computo combo at "Endpoint", the "prize" the Fatal Five was after, etc.
Posted by Owl Lad on :
I enjoyed the introduction of Gear and them finding a place for Bouncing Boy.
The reintroduction of Nightwind was outstanding and shortlived.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Of course, credit for re-introing Nightwind and Infectious Lass must go to Gail Simone, not DnA.
Posted by the boy with UltraPowers on :
for most of the part i loved DnA's run on "THE LEGION" !!
i would say that the first 14 issues were the greatest [ along with "DAMED", "LOST" and "WORLDS" before them !! ]
up until 14 DnA had introduced loads of great plots and hints as to waht to come, and although "DREAM CRIME" and 'FOUNDATIONS" were fun stories, they dragged on a bit too long, and we never got a relsove to some of the cool things they had hinted at before ...... that would be my biggest complaint !!
but overall they were great for the LEGION !! and of course, how could i forget the AMAZING art of OLIVIER COIPEL !! who was a MASSIVE part of me LOVING those first 14 issues !! oh how i had wished he'd stayed around till at least 25 or so .....
Matthew.
Posted by Invisible Brainiac on :
DnA really did reinvigorate my love for the Legion; it was only after they came along that I started having our comic book shop reserve copies of the next issues for me.
Others:
- Giving Kinetix the best characterization she had in over 3 years; even though it was for only a few brief moments. - Chuck and the Bouncing Boy - Live Wire's sacrifice - Giving Monstress more depth - using M'Onel effectively and well - Shikari and Timber Wolf - making me like Chameleon, Spark, Kid Quantum, Sensor and Ferro a lot more - giving Gear a personality - making Dreamer and Insect Queen much cooler - exploring the "law vs vigilantes" question with Dyrk Magz - cool moments with Shvaughn Erin, esp in the Robotica arc - Damned, Lost and Worlds as a whole, plus the first year or so of the Legion
Posted by Jorg-EM on :
I really liked Ferro. His relationship with Superboy was interesting. Both from the 20th century. Both boys of steel. Kon-El was also buddies with Karate Kid it seemed. I was looking foward to these three (and possibly Sensor) forming a clique.
Shvaugn Erin! Loved their Chuck!
Posted by reservations on :
timberwolf. dreamer.
And the M'Onel vs Ra's thing. I mean M'Onel needs an arch nemesis worthy of his rep.
Posted by Yellow Kid on :
Good point. Mon vs Ras and Mon vs Glorith were the high points of his heroic career. It's too bad they were in different continuities. I liked Valor's appearance in Legion Worlds so much that I could imagine that a DnA mini series starring Lar Gand might relaunch his solo career in a really big way. That would be a seriously cool book...heh..and as long as the 20th C and the 30th C aren't directly connected there'd be no conflict over continuity glitches.
Posted by Shadow Kid on :
I forgot about the M'Onel issue of worlds. That is maybe my favourite legion issue in the last five years so snaps for that DnA.
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