This is something I hope to start a series of, so, er, I hope no one goes and steals my thunder or something and starts another one of these! Thanks!
So…as the history of the LSH progressed, members kept being introduced, especially in the early years. If you think about it though, the introduction of each new member must have had social consequences for the group as a whole—especially as seen in relation to other events occurring at that time both in terms of Legionnaire-related things (re: Death of Lightning Lad) or social things (re: Jo and Tinya start going out).
Having historical hindsight is also beneficial, as we know later how things turned out and can make some connections that might not be self-evident early on.
Of course, what the writer intended when he wrote something could by and large be entirely inconsequential. Who cares if they meant for Luornu and Tinya to be good friends and maybe Vi feel a little left out? It sure might seem like that with 40 years of retrospect and character development!
So, these will a lot briefer in the beginning, but I hope they garner interest:
Phantom Girl and Triplicate Girl
The two of them joining would not have changed the chemistry of the group that much, since there were only three before that. If anything, though, I can see these things occurring immediately:
1. The Founders begin to naturally be bound together more often, since they have a previous relationship. In direct relationship, Tinya and Luornu would strike up an immediate friendship, since both are non-founders in such a small group.
2. Saturn Girl begins her reputation as an ice queen. I can easily see Imra beginning to push away from other members, which would cause these new females, particularly because they were both female and would expect more empathy, to wonder why she was such an ‘iron butt’. I do think, however, that this really didn’t start happening until later on, but the foundations for it were immediate as soon as there was new members.
3. With new girls, you would expect to see possible new chemistry between members. However, I expect Cos was so caught up in the founding and creating of the Legion, that he never gave much thought to dating Tinya or Luornu. Not that either girl minded though, since they probably were too. I also really believe that Imra and Garth really did fall in love very early on, and Garth never gave much thought to dating anyone else on the team, just like I don’t think Imra ever much thought to being with Cos (this is preboot).
4. I also think that Luornu had the ‘girl next door’ bit to her right away, and Tinya had the ‘most popular girl’ quality, but they also were close friends. From here on in, girls that joined would be hard-pressed to follow the lead of these two, with Tinya at the lead. And the boys would be wise not to cross them.
*I should also mention that I consider all of these Legionnaires to be extremely likeable, and don’t have anything against any of their characters. In fact, I think all of the Silver Age Legionnaires were extremely likeable. But I’m sure there were some social dynamics in a group of 20+ teens.
Thoughts on the social dynamic when Tinya and Lu joined? I hope long posts don’t drive people away…
[ July 06, 2005, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Cobalt Kid ]
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: 4. I also think that Luornu had the ‘girl next door’ bit to her right away, and Tinya had the ‘most popular girl’ quality, but they also were close friends. From here on in, girls that joined would be hard-pressed to follow the lead of these two, with Tinya at the lead. And the boys would be wise not to cross them.
Lu=Betty Tinya=Veronica
I agree with that. Same dynamic except for fighting over the same boy. But that's why the Adventure era wasn't the Archie Legion. Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
You know, I never thought about the idea that part of Saturn Girl's image can be attributed to the fact that she's not really part of the "girl's clique" that's founded when Tinya and Lu join, being a founder and everything, but also different from the other founders in being female. That's a really interesting insight, Cobie.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I have similar thoughts for just about every LSHer! I got really into thinking about it the other night for some reason and couldn't wait to share.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Things were happening so quickly in those early days, did Tinya and Lu even have much time to impact things before the NEXT newbie came along and caused a stir?
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: Things were happening so quickly in those early days, did Tinya and Lu even have much time to impact things before the NEXT newbie came along and caused a stir?
Well they had a little more time than the Founders did between when they (Lu and Tinya) joined and when the next three did.
The Legion was founded on 1/6/2973 (that's January 6th for you backwards Europeans ). Lu and Tinya joined on 3/3/2973 (my 981st wedding anniversary).
Reep, Lyle and Gim then joined up on July 10th that same year.
[ July 06, 2005, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Lightning Lad ]
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I do think there must have been some impact by Tinya and Lu, although I'm sure that as the group got larger, the impact felt by each new member was felt more. By the time Gym and Cham came, which was fairly quickly, I do think Tinya and Lu were the type of people to have settled into specific roles in the LSH for the early days.
But you do have a point Lash, things moved so quick then that I don't think the impact was massive. But the Tinya/Lu clique I think set the foundation for almost a pecking order of other Legion girls (sans Imra) for a little while, at least until after Ayla.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Lightning Lad:
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: Things were happening so quickly in those early days, did Tinya and Lu even have much time to impact things before the NEXT newbie came along and caused a stir?
Well they had a little more time than the Founders did between when they (Lu and Tinya) joined and when the next three did.
The Legion was founded on 1/6/2973 (that's January 6th for you backwards Europeans ). Lu and Tinya joined on 3/3/2973 (my 981st wedding anniversary).
Reep, Lyle and Gim then joined up on July 10th that same year.
That'll be our topic for tomorrow that I start! Posted by Mystery Lad on :
There was also the 'larger world' social consequences of breaking the 'one superheroine to a team' convention.
Black Canary (on two different teams!), Scarlet Witch, Crystal, Lilith and Polaris were 'seconds' on their respective teams... but three heroines on one team... unheard of! But it was a couple hundred or a thousand years in the future... wouldn't have happened, otherwise.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
Cool topic, Cobie-- I remember when the reboot-that-was began, I wanted to spend a little more time with just the founders and Lu and Tinya... though I was impatient as anyone else to see my 'favorites' survive the transition.
If Garth and Imra were already focused on each other (which I'm not so sure about, really-- I don't think Imra was really *into* Garth till he 'died'...), it would make sense for Cosmic Boy to be friendlier with the newcomers. I agree the founders would probably spend a lot of time together, but of the three, I'd guess that it'd be Rokk who'd be friends with Lu and Tinya.
Then again, Garth was shown to be a bit of a flirt... and I can't imagine that Imra would make *no* overtures to the new superheroines.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Wasn't it Lu, Tinya and Imra that appeared to Kara as her "super-girlfriends"?
I wonder bet Imra lost to be forced to join Lu & Tinya on that little escapade?
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
I'm sure that Imra thought nothing of having these new girls arrive. I'm sure she knew that several new members would be joining the team, they'd all be tested and fall into place. Being "girlfriends" was never a priority for Imra, so if Lu and Tinya buddied up, that'd be no problem for Imra. Later, as she found herself lumped in with all the other girls, Imra would try to fit in, discussing fabrics, etc, but this was never her comfort zone. Later we know that Imra never became one of the "girlfriends." Her closest female relationship would be with Ayla, her sister-in-law. We all know about Imra's "Ice Maiden" and "Iron Butt" reputation, otherwise.
Also, I don't think of Tinya and Lu ever really becoming that close. Tinya was the type of girl who respected skill, power. I think of her as holding everyone to a very high standard, their very best. She'd accept Lu for what she was worth, and be friendly to Lu, but never really close.
Luornu was always full of doubt about her place in the Legion, however, she held in there and maintained herself, and had an illustrious career, personifying the idea that it doesn't require great power to be a good Legionnaire. Meanwhile, with her attractive personality, she became very well liked and popular.
I'm sure that the boys were very well aware of these beautiful girls. Certainly they ogled over Imra. I can imagine Cos dating both girls, and have it go bad. This could lead to a "no dating" rule, later changed (in order to be more realistic) to the no marriage rule. Garth, of course, would not want to stray from his eye on Imra.
I believe that the glamour and prestige of the Legion increased incredibly when the girls joined. Then, it got even bigger and more impressive as each new member joined. Naturally, there could be no bigger change in Legion history than when Superboy (and Supergirl) joined!
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Do we really see much of the Lu-Tinya friendship in the Adventure Era? I know it's mentioned in Levitz (v3 #51, as I recall), but I'm not really keying into any scenes of the two of them together.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Hm...v3 #51 kind of cemented that idea in my head. I'll have to look. But I assume they would be, especially early on, with only Imra as the other girl. This, of course, may have changed when others joined and various things happened over the years. But for these early months, I can easily see them being the in-crowd, and setting themselves up to be that way for when later heroes joined.
Posted by Tromium on :
Tinya was in Lu's wedding party, and Imra was her maid of honor. That's really the first hint I recall that these girls had any sort of personal relationship.
Posted by Tamper Lad on :
Could you guys use a fresh view? I've just read the silver age stuff for the first time. I've also studied team dynamics from a workplace perspective in school.
A founder's clique or Lu/Tinya joining at the same time is not really important from a interpersonal dynamic POV in a team of only five members.
The tipping point where this changes is the "super girlfriends issue". Though Imra is not really portrayed icy/take charge until Adventure 304, I think her withdrawal from the team starts when Brainy joins because I see B5 and SG having similar personality types and interests (science etc). This is also the point where a Lu/Tinya friendship would take the lead as the alpha legion girls.
[ July 06, 2005, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Tamper Lad ]
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
This will maybe be more appropriate when Cobie gets to Brainy and Supergirl's joining, but this discussion has prompted me to wonder about the motives for Imra, Lu and Tinya journeying back in time to offer membership to Supergirl.
Maybe each of the girls was dissatisfied in their friendships with the others and saw Kara as being the puzzle-piece that would make everything fit.
She shared intellect with Saturn Girl, resolve with Phantom Girl... hmmm- what with Triplicate Girl?
Posted by MLLASH on :
Innocence.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Good comments and insight all around! I think there is loads to be gained from these discussions, and I'm particulurly interested in seeing how the relationship between Saturn Girl and the other Legionnaires (particulurly Tinya) developed over time.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Do we really see much of the Lu-Tinya friendship in the Adventure Era? I know it's mentioned in Levitz (v3 #51, as I recall), but I'm not really keying into any scenes of the two of them together.
They were the only girls on the team in Adv. 348. Invisible Kid orders them to stick together when the team splits up to search Regulus's ship.
In Adv. 362, one of them tells the other about "the most darling new outfit" she has in her quarters and offers to show it to her. Don't remember which is which though.
In Adv. 368, when the girls pair off to work on decorating their new dorm, Lu and Tinya are working together over the robo-sewing machine. (Only Projectra refrained, choosing to lounge on the sofa instead. Too royal to get her hands dirty with the peasants?)
Those are the only instances where the 2 were paired that I can recall offhand from the Adv. days. Of course, they were often miscolored as each other. Maybe that's why they were so close...
[ July 07, 2005, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: jimgallagher ]
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Choosing to have all girls go back in time to meet Supergirl seems like a total Luornu idea to me. Imra would never have even considered the "girlfriends" angle. She would have chosen the most appropriate representation of the group possible, whatever that may have been. Probably the most diverse grouping. Tinya would have wanted the most powerful grouping. I think she might have wanted to have the whole Legion go. I imagine Lu really wanting to play on the fact that Kara was the lone super girl of her time, that she needed the fellowship of other super girls. The rest of the team probably just said "Well, why not?" and went for it. It ended up being quite charming and fun afterall. THAT is something Lu brought to the Legion, charm and endearing ideas that the others might have been too stuffy to think of.
This *is* fun, Cobie. I never would have thought of any of that if not for these threads...
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Thanks Dean! When I first thought of these, I thought the same thing, and started thinking about Legion stuff differently for the first time.
And I can totally see it as a Lu idea too, now that you mention it.
Jim, good call on the Tinya/Lu pairing. Little things like that often led to future writers to make bold assumptions of the past--I don't see why we can't do the same!
Posted by legionadventureman on :
Wasnt Phantom Girl a bridesmaid at Duo Damsel's wedding to Bouncing Boy? That certain says a lot about closeness...
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Oh yeah, PG was the one who sprung DD from jail in Adv. 360. Maybe she volunteered for the job because she couldn't stand the thought of her pal rotting in jail.
Posted by legionadventureman on :
Thats what made PG such an effective Espionage Squad member - dhe was sneaky!
Posted by Tamper Lad on :
I think Imra and Tinya never liked each other much, but I think the breaking point was Imra's lack of empathy during the incident when Jo was believed to be a criminal Adv 316. Look at that scowl on SGs face yikes.
Imra seemed to be on much better terms with Lu though, SG shared a catty comment about Nura in her first appearance Ad 317.
Also Lu and Imra (Ayla too) have some fun hitting on Jimmy Olsen in issue 76 of JO. If you take Legion appearances in JO to be canon of course.
Though for the most part Imra "wore a cape" around the inverted rocket ship. I think Lu was always Imra's first choice to do girl things with. Also considering they were the two earliest legion wives.
Of course their relationship culminated in the Time Trapper Conspiracy years later.
[ July 08, 2005, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Tamper Lad ]
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Yeah, I can see Tinya and Imra not really getting along, but with Lu as a kind of buffer between them, friends with both.
It's also interesting to consider Lu's later crush on Superboy from this angle, since, after Lu fell out of the picture, Tinya would later become close to Mon-El's girlfriend, Tasmia. If Lu's intentions towards Kal had been successful, would we have seen the three girlfriends of the three "superguys" always hanging out together? Maybe some of Lu's cattiness towards Shady in the Mordru story can be explained by this fear that one she "sinks her claws into" Mon-El, she knows she and Tinya will be hanging out together a lot?
Posted by legionadventureman on :
But surely Luornu could not have the foresight to have known that Shady and Phantom Girl would indeed get friendly during the Levitz years? Its not as if Dream Girl could have told her what to expect.
And she above all, knew what the future would hold
Posted by LoneWolfLondo on :
Great thread! I love it! It brings to mind the one thing I think I will have a problem with in Waid's run: with this many so soon in the story, we miss the significance of the induction of new members. Call me old school, but I liked the days when there was a story behind each new arrival (I'm thinking Tyroc, Dawnstar, Blok, Invisible Kid II)and even a swearing-in ceremony. Even with so many members, each new one changes the dynamic slightly, I would think. As far as Lu and Tinya, I'm thinking back to that Sourcebook entry that talked about Brainy discovering that each of Lu's bodies had their own personality, and her begging him not to tell because it was considered mental illness on Cargg. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this, I haven't been able to find my Sourcebook in a while...) I guess from this perspective I see Lu as desperate to fit in, be seen as normal. Tinya would have been a much safer choice of friend for her than Imra, who might read her mind and give her secrets away.
I remember reading that issue, the one where Vi says to Tinya that they'd never been close, but Tinya and Lu had. I thought that was just the coolest idea, new insight on old issues, I thought it was brilliant. In retrospect it was sort of a retcon before retcons were needed.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
LWL, great point, and one I totally forgot about! (Oh, and welcome back! )
That was established around TMK, as some forget, and not the reboot. That would definitely make Lu want to stick by Tinya, in addition to all the other reasons we already listed.
I can also see Imra and Tinya not really being close or getting along, but I do see them always maintaining a degree of mutual respect for one another. I do see them both as very heroic and very skilled, as well as both two strong women who knew exactly what they wanted and who they wanted to be. It’s interesting that Tamper Lad brought up the renegade Jo story and Imra’s reaction, especially when you compare it to the other big story where Jo left the team, during Gerry Conway’s run in the late 70’s. In that story, it has probably the best Imra/Tinya scene in LSH history, as Imra actually holds Tinya and the two share a cry together. Obviously, by that point, years later, the two had naturally become a bit closer and their mutual respect for one another and shared history on the team as two of the oldest members gave them a bond that neither may have really realized existed.
The Luornu-Shady-Tinya thing is something I really thought about two, and a thing I’m sure we’ll discuss once we do a Shady thread of these. During the first Mordru story, two major things happen: Shady begins falling for Mon and forgetting Braniy, and Luornu realizes she’ll never be with Clark and soon after begins her eventual love with Chuck. This change in Lu probably included her eventual acceptance that she would not want to be a Legionnaire for much longer and she and Chuck could retire. Meanwhile, Shady and Mon’s budding romance, combined with Jo and Mon’s growing friendship (in light of Clark not coming to the 30th century that much for a brief period) would slowly grow into the eventual Tinya/Jo/Mon/Shady clique. The period where Luornu left the Legion coincided directly with Shady becoming more prominent in the Legion, and Tinya probably realized her best friend was going to retire and marry Chuck (and was happy for her, I’m sure), so she would gravitate towards Shady, because despite Tinya’s popularity and confidence, she’d need to know she had an active Legionnaire as a best friend too. I’m more interested in how Vi or Ayla or others might have felt about this change, but I guess we’re getting WAAAAy ahead of ourselves at this point, since Dreamy, Jeckie and others were in the Legion too by that point. So, we’ll put that on hold!
Posted by legionadventureman on :
Princess P never seemed to be close to the other female Legionnaires...her soft side was only seen by Karate Kid...
Posted by MLLASH on :
I always pictured Jeckie as being close to Nura. They both had parents that ruled their worlds. Posh & Jecks!
Posted by Mattropolis on :
LASH, me too. Even if it wasn't shown onscreen, I just figured they had a great relationship.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Don't forget the magic connection with both of them.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
I never picked up on that. I can't honestly say that I ever connected her emotionally to anyone other than KK and to some extent, Ferro Lad.
Posted by Dev Em on :
I can see a few things that would make Imra seem standoffish to the other girls when they joined.
1) She was a founder, and with new members the dynamic was changing, as such, she may have been more inclined to still want to be around Rokk and Garth because of their relationship that had been formed with the saving of R.J. Not that she would not have wanted to be friends with the new girls, just that her inclination would be to stay with what she knew.
2) She can read minds. Imra and Lu would know that right out, and I'm sorry, that would have an affect on friendships to start out with. If it had been just the 5 of them for a longer period of time, the dynamic would have been forged differently.
3) Garth. Being a founder, being a teen, she probably would have been attracted to him right away. He had a bit of that "bad boy" image, Rokk was way to into establishing everything. Thus when the two new GIRL members show up, her inclination would be to move vloser to Garth.
Very interesting topic.
[ December 06, 2009, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Dev Em ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Interesting thread with a lot of wonderful speculations and observations.
All of this seems reasonable, but part of me holds back and wants to say that human relationships are much more complex than we might imagine. How much more complex would super-human relations be?
We got to see so little of particular friendships in the Adventure days that those stories led to the impression that the Legion was one big, happy family: Everyone got along famously with everyone else, and few members really had "best friends" (because "best friends" implies the exclusion of others). This is particularly true of Lu and Tinya, who were treated as stallwart Legionnaires with little personality to differentiate them from other Legionnaires. One has to really read between the lines (as so many on this thread have done) to see patterns and possiblities.
I like the idea of Lu and Tinya being early friends when the team was small. But I can't imagine their friendship surviving, except on the most casual level, once the team started to grow. Tinya became preoccupied with Ultra Boy, and Lu with Superboy. I can't picture Lu confiding her unrequited feelings in Tinya (partly because Tinya strikes me as the type who would have been constantly talking about Jo and not listening to others). Plus, Lu's feelings for Superboy probably developed slowly over time; she wasn't even sure how she felt until it was too late . . .
Of course, girls don't spend all their time talking about boys (much as some boys would like to believe), so what else would Lu and Tinya talk about? What would they do when they hung out? The "Mutiny of the Super-Heroines" story maybe gives us a clue--but sewing is just an ordinary girl-type thing (stereotypically, at that); besides, their minds were being influenced by Thora in that story--who's to say how genuine the friendship depictions were?
I don't mean to throw a monkey wrench into any of the above theories--quite the contrary, I find them very fascinating and plausible. But I also think some other possiblities might have existed.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Confirming that my belief in a tight Jeckie/Nura friendship goes way back, this was originally posted in The 'Personalities of Legionnaires' thread....
PRINCESS PROJECTRA
Another member valuable in a political way, Jeckie's 'flashier' power made her more prominent than Nura in the early days. Nura and Projectra became fast friends due to similar backgrounds.
By breeding regal, respectful and angered when misunderstood, Jeckie herself is not one to look down on others. She certainly enjoys creature comforts-- the posher and more lavish the better, and enjoys sharing those comforts with her friends. She uses her powers almost unconsciously in social situations, tending to subtly alter certain things about herself that will put others at ease.
She is not above a brawl when placed into the situation, and training with Karate Kid has actually made her quite skilled in that area. However, as her powers matured to the Sensor Girl-level, Jeckie rarely finds herself even required to use her fighting skills.
Jeckie has dabbled into the magical arts of Orando, and frequently invites Dream Girl to join in her dabblings, though neither is any kind of proficient in the area.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
And just to continue with the idea of alternate possibilities . . .
I like the idea of Jeckie and Nura being friends because of their royal bearings, but it's just as plausible that--for the same reason--they might not have been able to stand each other.
Reared on a tradition-bound and medieval world like Orando, Jeckie might have regarded Nura as a shallow strumpet who wasted her royal heritage, while Nura might have seen Jeckie as a stuck-up, rod-up-her-butt blueblood. After Jeckie got her Sensor Girl powers, she would have seen through Nura's facade (if, indeed, it was a facade), but, by then, their relationship was long set.
Being professional Legionnaires--and with the added advantage of their royal training--neither ever let their feelings be known to the other Legionnaires or to interfere with their duties in any way. For the most part, Jeckie and Nura kept their distance from one another, and I think this is borne out by their history: I can't recall any major scenes of Jeckie and Nura hanging out, talking, or even going on a mission together unless several other Legionnaires were also involved.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
While it is true that Nura and Jeckie didn't appear together very much (probably because they were both platinum blondes), it is strongly implied that Nura was close to Val, so that's an interesting connection.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Were Nura and Val especially close? The only story I recall where this might be implied was SUPERBOY # 199, in which Nura saved Val's life from a knife wound. Given the circumstances of the story, I didn't read anything into it other mutual concern among comrades.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Weren't they paired in several stories?
Anyway, I'm pretty sure Levitz established that Nura had been one of Val's most devoted martial arts trainees.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
I can't recall any other stories, though you may be right.
As for Nura being one of Val's greatest pupils, I can imagine that the limited use of her powers in battle might have motivated her to study harder.
But you do have a point. If for any reason Nura was hanging around Val a lot, it might have increased the tension between her and Jeckie.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Glad you’ve bumped a bunch of my old topics! Maybe I’ll do another one some time...
Part of the reason I started these was because there was little characterization shown in the Adventure days outside of whatever was needed to move the story forward. Of course, we could all assume such things happened off-camera all the time. And since we have decades of history afterwards, it makes sense to use the later characterization and long history of the characters as evidence for what we can theorize the early relationships to have been like, and how they would have evolved over time as new members, adventures and situations continually throw monkey wrenches into existing relationships. Of course, since we can’t no for sure, its makes all the conflicting theories that much more interesting.
I, for one, subscribe to the idea that Jeckie and Nura were probably great friends. They are actually shown hanging out together on at least 2-3 occasions over the years, and I can specifically remember a back-up story in Superboy during the Grell era where 4-5 of the girls are out together and Nura and Jeckie are specifically chummy. There is also the story in which Nura, Mysa and Jeckie dramatically come to the rescue of the Legion against Mordru and that would undoubtedly be a bonding moment for the two, particularly if they were already on the verge of a close friendship. And I think they were.
By the time Jeckie joined the Legion, I can’t think of many other Legion girls who would be friends with Nura considering her previous interaction with the team, which consisted of all the boys fawning over her, and then Star Boy leaving the team under bad circumstances and then going off to have adventures with her. Jeckie herself, being a Princess, would easily feel like an outsider to some degree (many of them would have in their early days, and there would always be an adjustment period—this would be Jeckie’s). Add to the fact that almost immediately Nemesis Kid is revealed as a traitor and Ferro Lad dies and suddenly this group of “new kids” feels like bad luck, or a real breaking point from prior ‘good times’. Jeckie and Val almost immediately begin an attraction leading to a relationship (likely spurred on by going through the rough times their ‘new school’ group experienced together), and she’s further distanced. So when Nura joins with Star Boy rejoining, she’d be seen largely as an outsider; Jeckie was experiencing her own adjustment period to the Legion where she might have felt that way too. The two could easily have related to one another: similar pasts, feeling of being an outsider, both having boyfriends (or on the cusp of having one) and therefore potentially resented by single Legionnaire females (we all know that happens all the time). These things might not have been on the forefront of their minds, and likely weren’t galaxy-shattering in their drama, but I can easily see them as subtly influencing ever interaction both girls were having, and helping them become drawn to one another.
So by the time of the Mordru story, they were already becoming fast friends and this could have cemented it. Skip forward several years and while the Legion continued to change, Jeckie and Nura always remained part of the team as stalwart members, but allowed others to run for leadership positions and didn’t necessarily jump into the spotlight. I also think the Nura/Val friendship was something real, and probably spurred on by Jeckie who helped forge their friendship so Nura was comfortable enough to really be Val’s star student. When Val went to the 20th Century I’m sure Jeckie had a hard time with it, and I suspect it was Nura she turned to (we certainly didn’t see her doing it elsewhere). Of course, both would later shine, and maybe once it was obvious Nura was the going to be the new Legion leader and really dedicate herself to that, Jeckie thought it was time for her life to move forward a little and this was yet another (albeit minor) factor in marrying Val and retiring from the Legion.
Of course, there’s no way to tell any of the above, but I think it’s a plausible speculation of a great Legion friendship we really never got to see.
Posted by Color Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Were Nura and Val especially close? The only story I recall where this might be implied was SUPERBOY # 199, in which Nura saved Val's life from a knife wound. Given the circumstances of the story, I didn't read anything into it other mutual concern among comrades.
Reminds me of when Lu saved Jeckie's life..can't recall what issue....Superboy 190something probably. I'm surprised Jeckie wasn't close to Lu after that...since Lu did save her royal butt.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Good points, Cobie, and well argued.
The problem with speculating about early Legion relationships is that we tend to read into characters how we are or to assume that everyone must have always gotten along really well. In truth, relationships have peaks and valleys, and they change over time. I imagine, for example, that most of the girl Legionnaires did not continue to resent Nura after she rejoined the team; by that time, most of the girls had boyfriends, so there wasn't much reason to be jealous. Also, there are no stories (as I recall) of the boys falling madly in love with Nura after Adventure # 317, so they seem to have grown up quite a bit, too.
You make an excellent point that Nura and Jeckie's collaboration in the defeat of Mordru might have been a bonding moment for them. Since Mordru was the one villain everyone else feared, that would have been a defining moment in both of their careers.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Color Kid, the story you are thinking of is "Who Can Save the Princess?" from SUPERBOY # 209. Lu had left the Legion by this point and only came back to render assistance in this special circumstance. Since she wasn't around much, there was probably limited opportunity for her and Jeckie to bond.
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
A few quick points of mine on Tinya and Luornu:
1) Triplicate Girl was the first new member to join the Legion because mechanically the writer(s) needed her first to appear with each founding member upon applying - splitting into three with more than three members wouldn't have worked so well. What I always found interesting was that the 5th member to join was also a girl, which made the group briefly a female majority. This was an extremely interesting development especially in a super-hero comic whose readers were largely young males. What could these writers/editors been thinking, except this move (along with Saturn Girl as team leader soon after) was innovative and way ahead of the times?
2) Luornu had two interesting personality traits that were built on throughout the years; first her girl-next-door crush on Superboy seemed to be a classic case of falling for the star quarterback who in turn doesn't really know you exist (or at least have reciprocal feelings). This secret seemed to leave Luornu introverted in many ways, trying her best to visibly bury her affections from her fellow members which she knew deep down could never actually lead to a romance or relationship. Secondly, her splitting into different individuals later generated distinct, separate personalities, which may have been uncomfortable for other Legionnaires to interact with on a close level. Lu seemed to be the well liked, but distant, mysterious Legionnaire. While Tinya probably hung with Lu for a short time while the group was at five, she was more at ease with Lyle when he joined (similar powers), and found more compatibility with Ultra Boy and Shady and Mon-El once they were aboard. Tinya always impressed me as THE Legionnaire who could get along with anyone, although she was portrayed as a little catty at times during the Levitz/Giffen era.
Posted by Set on :
During his brief visit to the threeboot, Shooter seemed to have Tinya as one of his friendliest (and most responsible) Legionnaires. She was shown (alongside Ayla on several occasions) working with current-leader Garth and serving as a sounding-board. While never stated to be a deputy leader, she seemed to have taken on the responsibilities. In the tryouts issue, Tinya, Ayla, Gim and Thom are the four Legionnaires who get up out of their chairs to greet the returning Dirk. I liked that sort of visual characterization, and while classic Star Boy didn't seem quite so gregarious in particular, classic Star Boy *was* specifically good friends with Sun Boy (D&D buddies), so perhaps Shooter was going back to that relationship, even if a Sun Boy / Star Boy friendship hadn't been established as of yet in the threeboot.
Anywho, back to the girls, I like the idea that Tinya would serve as a sort of backbone to the team. Or perhaps, she would be better described as an embodiment of the Legions spirit.
Posted by Candle on :
I, um, agree with He Who Wanders when it comes to the barreness of the Adventure era relationships and the personalities that they would have been founded on.
That being said, I think that Imra was just always a guy friendly gal. I've had women/girls as friends in my life but I prefer men as friends because they're more fun.
I've liked guy topics and doing guy things. They really have all the fun and get themselves mixed up in all the cool stuff.
As I've gotten older, that's changed some, but I think that that is one of the things that motivated Imra.
I don't think that she thought much about her looks, either. Her outfit, in the early years, is really the most serviceable and practical, almost self-conscious of her 'femaleness'.
I think of Lu, on the other hand, as giggly and flirty, needy comes to mind, too.
And while she may not have had a crush on Superboy early on, she copied SuperGIRL's outfit with a skirt, boots and cape.
It may have been admiration, but she might have wanted to be noticed more and she might have secretly longed for more power, as well.
Tinya, on the other hand, seemed totally comfortable with her looks and her femininity. In the early days, she was my favorite (before Shady joined.)
She never seemed intimidated by the boy's general lack of respect for the girl's capabilities and never seemed to need to prove herself to them or anyone else.
Forte's style was kindest to her, really. Vi and Ayla didn't fair so well with him, imo.
Curt Swan always seemed to enjoy her, too.
As to Jeckie and Nura, I always team them with Mysa for a platinum blonde clicke. But that's just my take on them.
In reality, comic book speculation style, I think of both of them as almost completely self absorbed and not close friends with anyone except a boyfriend or mentor who could add to their abilities and rank.
They were, after all, extremely beautiful, rich aristocrates with powers that were an esteemed part of their worlds. With the added magical interests, they might have had enough in common to develop a strong, life long friendship, but I don't think that they could be 'bothered' to.
On top of that, Levitz established Nura as having a huge intelligence and a scientific background. With maintaining her looks AND her science AND her boyfriend, I don't think Nura had time for Jeckie and visa versa.
I always felt that Tinya and Tasmia were the other two 'aristocrates' (female) in the Legion and that's one of the reasons that they became friends, not just because of their powerful boyfriends.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
I agree with Candle about Nura and Jecky - too busy between Legion duties, personal business (on Earth and their homeworlds) and their boyfriends to have time for friendships. For Nura, add her concerns about her little sister as well. The thing is, I'm sure neither of them cared about that either.
Nura liked to flirt with the boys and Jecky seemed to rarely interact with them. Actually, it'd be interesting to look back at her scenes and see if she ever actually spoke to anyone on a personal level! The point is, the two conducted themselves very differently within the Legion. Neither were friendly with other girls.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
). Lu and Tinya joined on 3/3/2973 (my 981st wedding anniversary).