It occurred to me tonight (and knowing LW, it's probably come up before) that, especially pre-5YG, all the Legionnaire deaths were guys.
The only exceptions were two-thirds of Luornu and Supergirl, and even those are kinda debatable. I mean:
Luornu--The first-third's death was kinda brushed off with kind of a: "Oh! Guess I'm Duo Damsel, now! *Tee-hee*" vibe to it. And the second-third was reversed by Tom and Mary. In any case we never really lost Lu, did we?
Kara--well, she didn't really die as a Legionnaire, did she? And she hadn't even been an active member in a loong time (if she ever truly was compared to Superboy and other members). I'd say, in a way, Kara was never or rarely more than an honorary member or guest star, in practice, if not in fact.
Meanwhile, we lost Ferro Lad, Invisible Kid, Chemical King, Karate Kid, Superboy and Magnetic Kid (did I miss anyone?), all of the male gender and all in Legion stories in the same period of time pre-5YG.
So if you buy my reasoning, that's six guys to no girls. Or six versus 1 and a third if you don't.
In the 5YG, we lost Blok, Sun Boy, SW6 Cham and SW6 Karate Kid versus SW6 Projectra and Laurel Gand off the top of my head. That ratio improves over pre-5YG pretty well--and we're left with 2 to 1 (though I'm probably forgetting someone).
In the reboot we had Leviathon and Element Lad versus Monstress, right? 2:1
And WaKboot, so far we only have Dreamy...though that's debatable. But for now, we'll count her.
And if you look more closely at the female deaths: Lu was never really gone, SW6 Projectra was merely cannon fodder with the other two SW6ers, Laurel Gand probably never would've been killed if not for Zero Hour and the reboot (probably to yank at our heart strings as a parting shot as she was one of 5YG's superstars), Monstress was one of the most disliked LSHers in history and Dreamy, well, she kinda never really left, did she?
All of the males I listed were gone-gone (though possibly not Jan--that was confusing!) when they were killed, and of course, they were more numerous.
In any case we've had a good number of girl Legionnaires, and though historically their powers tend to be weaker, they're survivors! Why do you think it is that LSH writers tend to kill males before the females. Is that an LSH trend or a comic books-in-general trend? Andwhat does that say?
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Pretty strange! I never noticed that. Maybe killing the girls was like putting women in combat - it just wasn't done, until recently - and even now some people think it just isn't right.
In the pre-boot, there was also the fake death of "Saturn Girl", i.e. Proty as Saturn Girl sacrificing herself for Lightning Lad.
Phantom Girl was blown up in her cruiser, along with her mother, in 5YG.
While the "Saturn Girl" death was heroic in its intention, neither female died in battle. Apart from the cannon fodder SW6, the only females to die in battle were Andromeda and Lu #1 (and #2, before TMK). Monstress is debatable, she was trying to talk to Jan - not a combat death. Dream Girl was just sort of standing there when a building fell on her.
Sounds like a "this mission is too dangerous for a girl" mentality.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
in Reboot, Tinya died in combat with Daxamites, but got better.
Tasmia was set up for her death prophesy to be fulfilled in #300, but of course that was a red herring.
There were various statis/false deaths (Jeckie was one of the five 'dead' LSHers in a 2-parter towards the end of the Adventure run; several (including Tasmia? I forget) were 'killed' by the League of Super-Assassins in the 250s of SLSH... but of course they all got better.
Posted by Blacula on :
I remember I had a long post on this subject years ago when I first joined Legion World.
Danged if I can remember where it is or what I said in it though.
Needless to say I completely agree with your points Kent. (And you forgot to include Kid Quantum in your reboot deaths. Not to mention all the supporting cast males who've died over the years - Beast Boy, Atom'x, Blast-Off, Jediah Rikane... I'm sure I'm forgetting some.)
I think there are probably a few reasons why this is the case -
1. Cramer's probably right in that some people still have a subconcious squeamishness about seeing women killed in combat situations (think about all the 20th Century DCU females who have been killed/incapacitated out of uniform or off-duty - the whole 'Women in Refridgerators' thing - though I do think that's changing)
2. There have also always been more male characters in the Legion mythos, ergo more male deaths.
3. I'd say that ever since Cockrum/Grell and especially ever since Levitz the females of this team have been given more interesting/dynamic personalities than a lot of the guys, which probably made them a bit more indispensable when it came to choosing someone to deep six.
4. Another reason that sounds wise and insightful. It's late and my mind's blank at the moment so someone add this one for me. Posted by He Who Wanders on :
I think your three reasons have pretty much hit the nail on the head, Blacula.
It should be noted that although permanent deaths of female Legionnaires have been rare, that hasn't prevented cover artists from frequently putting women in death-like situations. For example:
-- Superboy # 200: Superboy is carrying the unconcious-and-near-death Duo Damsel toward the gigantic form of Starfinger (who remains normal-sized in the story).
-- Superboy # 205: Lana is shot by a Legion firing squad, along with Ultra Boy. (Notice that Lana is more prominent in the image than Jo. Notice also where Brainy's ray blast hits her.)
-- Superboy # 209: Projectra is shown lying on a slab in the med center, as the cover title proclaims, "Who Can Save the Princess?"
Superboy # 210 has Phantom Girl being stabbed with a phantom knife, though this is not shown on the cover.
These examples, culled from the same era, are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other examples from different eras, as well. The fact that these covers are fairly close in succession shows, I think, that there was still a marketable value in putting the girls in dangerous situations (perhaps so they could be rescued by the boys, which they all were).
I also think that there was perhaps a deliberate sexual element to some of these depictions. (Note the Lana cover, above.) Given that the primary audience for comics, then as now, is adolescent boys, it's understandable -- in a somewhat under-the-table way -- that DC preferred putting the female Legionnaires in situations that highlighted their sexuality instead of disposing of them for good.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
D'oh! Definitely forgot about James Cullen, Jazmin's bro! But that only helps my point.
Honestly, I don't see why supporting character deaths, near-deaths and damsels-in-distress are being brought into the equation. But, for the sake of argument, probably the one character I came closest to mentioning, who wasn't an actual Legionnaire, was Mentalla.
For my money, Mentalla's death is and was the most affecting female death (and up there with the better male deaths in my mind) I've seen in any Legion story, and I'm not really sure why. Maybe it was the cruelty of her murder or the sheer tragedy of her going from a Legion reject to trying to infiltrating the Fatal Five in order to prove her worth. Hard to say.
Was anyone else similarly affected by Mentalla's death? And, if so, can anyone nail exactly why it was she grabbed you by the heartstrings? Would the effect have been the same if the character was male?
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: Was anyone else similarly affected by Mentalla's death? And, if so, can anyone nail exactly why it was she grabbed you by the heartstrings? Would the effect have been the same if the character was male?
Definitely. I liked that, while some other Rejects got all huffy and became super-villains (Ron-Karr, anyone?), or even formed their own 'loser squad,' she didn't give up or find another gig, she attempted to *prove* why she was a worthy Legionnaire, dagnabbit!
It made her death more potent. Her choice was overconfident, perhaps even arrogant, but it was a heroic choice, not the 'logical' choice of running to the Legion and saying, 'Uh, the Emerald Empress just tried to recruit me for the the all-new Fatal Five, ya might wanna do something about that...'
She made an honest mistake, and paid for it with her life, and I think her arc worked perfectly, in that she truly 'died before her time,' giving it a little kick, because we *hadn't* gotten to really know her, but *had* been given reason to admire her courage. (Unlike, say, any of the Wanderers or Terror Firma, from the lastest threeboot, who could all die fiery deaths with minimal reader impact (save, perhaps, for some rejoicing, in the case of Jeyra Entin), since they are all amoral scumbags at best, and non-entities at worst.)
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: I think your three reasons have pretty much hit the nail on the head, Blacula.
It should be noted that although permanent deaths of female Legionnaires have been rare, that hasn't prevented cover artists from frequently putting women in death-like situations. For example:
-- Superboy # 200: Superboy is carrying the unconcious-and-near-death Duo Damsel toward the gigantic form of Starfinger (who remains normal-sized in the story).
-- Superboy # 205: Lana is shot by a Legion firing squad, along with Ultra Boy. (Notice that Lana is more prominent in the image than Jo. Notice also where Brainy's ray blast hits her.)
-- Superboy # 209: Projectra is shown lying on a slab in the med center, as the cover title proclaims, "Who Can Save the Princess?"
Superboy # 210 has Phantom Girl being stabbed with a phantom knife, though this is not shown on the cover.
These examples, culled from the same era, are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other examples from different eras, as well. The fact that these covers are fairly close in succession shows, I think, that there was still a marketable value in putting the girls in dangerous situations (perhaps so they could be rescued by the boys, which they all were).
I also think that there was perhaps a deliberate sexual element to some of these depictions. (Note the Lana cover, above.) Given that the primary audience for comics, then as now, is adolescent boys, it's understandable -- in a somewhat under-the-table way -- that DC preferred putting the female Legionnaires in situations that highlighted their sexuality instead of disposing of them for good.
HWW brings up a relevant point about females in danger in comics in that there is quite often an implied sexuality involved and always has been. I’m not sure if its all that apparent, or all that horrible in the Legion mythos, but its certainly there when you look at the history of the industry as a whole, and its of course very disturbing.
One could *almost* see it as harmlessness in the Silver Age, where Lois is kidnapped by some criminals. Yet, one might look at the other extreme seen in horror films today, where 50% of them show an almost pornographic depiction of rape that is without a doubt included to ‘titillate the audience’. There is undoubtedly a connection there, as restrictions of what you can put in fiction have been removed. This is a much larger topic about the portrayal of women in comics, movies, etc., of course but I think its always relevant to at least mention it when discussing something like the deaths and near-deaths of females Legionnaires in Legion history.
For the Legion in general, it’s always felt like there’s been a lack of misogynistic tendencies throughout its history with a few random exceptions (what the Braalian holiday?). But I wouldn’t argue that its been the opposite. I’d say that probably the first couple of Legionnaires dying being male had more to do with the ‘too dangerous for a girl’ mentality until the 80’s when things slightly evened out and everybody became open for death. Since then, it’s been about even, which you can particularly see in the 5YL Legion: Nightwind, Tinya, Laurel dying towards the end, Vi losing a leg, etc.—all examples of a much larger evenly spread ‘horrible things happening to all the Legionnaires’.
Posted by Set on :
Tangential to the 'women in danger on the covers' aspect, I read recently about how the original 'helpless victim tied to the train tracks' scenario was a man, who was rescued by a woman, but that every fictional depiction of the event since has reversed the genders.
I could see a silver age comic writer wanting to slant the covers to appeal to the young males that made up their audience. Putting a female figure in distress would be one way to get them worked up to see how they get saved (as opposed to a more modern audience, which would expect that more aggressive and effective female figures like Sue Storm, Jean Grey or Jenny Walters not only rescue them damn selves, but several of their hapless male team-mates in the process!).
In the post Lt. Ellen Ripley / Buffy / Aeryn Sun world, the young males are more likely to be 'titillated' by kick-ass women who are more likely to save the menfolk than by helpless swooning maidens in need of rescue. (Or maybe that's just me, but if finding Claudia Black in black leather holding big@$$ gun sexy is wrong, then I don't want to be right!)
Sarah Conner, from the Terminator movies, is the clearest example I can think of for this transition in the 'role of women' on-screen. Helpless waitress / victim in movie one. Gun-toting hardcase combatant in the second.
Vi, after her kidnapping and impersonation, would be a good Legion example. From meek and un-assertive to butt-kicking and take-no-prisoners. Tasmia and Projectra also 'cowboyed up' considerably over the years. Both kind of stood there and waved their powers at people in their original iterations, and both later transformed into effective hand-to-hand fighters.
Posted by Chemical King on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: I think your three reasons have pretty much hit the nail on the head, Blacula.
It should be noted that although permanent deaths of female Legionnaires have been rare, that hasn't prevented cover artists from frequently putting women in death-like situations. For example:
-- Superboy # 200: Superboy is carrying the unconcious-and-near-death Duo Damsel toward the gigantic form of Starfinger (who remains normal-sized in the story).
-- Superboy # 205: Lana is shot by a Legion firing squad, along with Ultra Boy. (Notice that Lana is more prominent in the image than Jo. Notice also where Brainy's ray blast hits her.)
-- Superboy # 209: Projectra is shown lying on a slab in the med center, as the cover title proclaims, "Who Can Save the Princess?"
Superboy # 210 has Phantom Girl being stabbed with a phantom knife, though this is not shown on the cover.
These examples, culled from the same era, are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other examples from different eras, as well. The fact that these covers are fairly close in succession shows, I think, that there was still a marketable value in putting the girls in dangerous situations (perhaps so they could be rescued by the boys, which they all were).
I also think that there was perhaps a deliberate sexual element to some of these depictions. (Note the Lana cover, above.) Given that the primary audience for comics, then as now, is adolescent boys, it's understandable -- in a somewhat under-the-table way -- that DC preferred putting the female Legionnaires in situations that highlighted their sexuality instead of disposing of them for good.
HWW brings up a relevant point about females in danger in comics in that there is quite often an implied sexuality involved and always has been. I’m not sure if its all that apparent, or all that horrible in the Legion mythos, but its certainly there when you look at the history of the industry as a whole, and its of course very disturbing.
One could *almost* see it as harmlessness in the Silver Age, where Lois is kidnapped by some criminals. Yet, one might look at the other extreme seen in horror films today, where 50% of them show an almost pornographic depiction of rape that is without a doubt included to ‘titillate the audience’. There is undoubtedly a connection there, as restrictions of what you can put in fiction have been removed. This is a much larger topic about the portrayal of women in comics, movies, etc., of course but I think its always relevant to at least mention it when discussing something like the deaths and near-deaths of females Legionnaires in Legion history.
But it's a far way from the good old "Damsel-in-distress" scenario to the Horror movies you are mentioning. I can't really say much about the latter cause I refrain from watching any of these modern "killing celebrations" for ethical reasons (not that I would be very interested in them in the first place). But if there was actual rape being shown - aren't there any laws against that?
It's certainly a different age than in the 60s, and even though I love the good old Legion Lore, I have big difficulties actually READING those stories in the archives because to todays eyes, they really often are very cheesy, and the portrayal of women in one major part of that.
Another fact I never understood was why they never did female action figures, by the way. Even the Legion figures from the 90: Only one single female (Imra), no Tinya, no Luornu, no Jeckie, no Ayla... but a boring Colossal Boy, a boring Timber Wolf...
Anybody ever understood that?
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: Another fact I never understood was why they never did female action figures, by the way. Even the Legion figures from the 90: Only one single female (Imra), no Tinya, no Luornu, no Jeckie, no Ayla... but a boring Colossal Boy, a boring Timber Wolf...
Anybody ever understood that?
To the 12th century mentalities behind toy manufacture;
[sarcasm] Boy Legion miniatures are 'action figures,' in the manly style of G.I. Joe, no doubt being played with in a rough and tumble socially acceptable 'boy' way, simulating combat and stuff. Ruff, ruff. Grrr.
Girl Legion miniatures are 'dolls,' particularly if any of their clothing bits / accessories are adjustable, encouraging the child to play 'dress up' and be all effeminate and practice socially unacceptable 'un-boy-like' behavior, and would irreparably damage the masculinity of any young male who played with them. 'Cause, yanno, to the healthy heterosexual male child, girls = icky. [/sarcasm]
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Chem, that's my point, to show that the Silver Age mentality is much different than today's current horror movie mentality, though there is some connect there after a wide range of 40 years. But definately I don't see any wide array of misogyny in Legion lore, especially the Silver Age.
Posted by Matthew E on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: Tangential to the 'women in danger on the covers' aspect, I read recently about how the original 'helpless victim tied to the train tracks' scenario was a man, who was rescued by a woman, but that every fictional depiction of the event since has reversed the genders.
This enigmatic comment intrigued me so much that I went and did some minor Google research. It sounds like you're referring to the 1867 American play Under the Gaslight, where a woman rescues a man tied to some train tracks.
According to a reference I found, this scene may have been borrowed from a preexisting English melodrama, but it doesn't say whether the victim in that melodrama was a man or a woman.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Great, great article Matthew.
It definately goes with the point I'm trying to get across (probably failing to do so). There is definately a direct connection b/t 'damsels in distress' in comics & other literature of 40 years ago and the pretty terrible sexuality of females in danger today (in films, comics, etc.), but the Legion is oddly enough, not really a part of this trend.
Not only is a trend-setter in regards to having strong female characters as leader (yay Imra!), but the Legion also fought very pervalent and awful above mentioned trend throughout its history.*
* = there are of course occassional examples that go against this, but to a much lesser extent than most other long running comics.
[ September 11, 2007, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Cobalt Kid ]
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Not only is a trend-setter in regards to having strong female characters as leader (yay Imra!), but the Legion also fought very pervalent and awful above mentioned trend throughout its history.*
* = there are of course occassional examples that go against this, but to a much lesser extent than most other long running comics.
Agreed, examples such as Salu's captivity on Imsk are nothing like the femme-bashing treatment of the Scarlet Witch or Ms. Marvel or any of the other female characters who have found themselves impregnated against their will or enslaved to be someone's 'bride' or creepier stuff, as happened to Sue Dibney.
And there's been some amazingly strong scenes involving female characters, such as Imra 'shutting down' Mon-El and Jo at the end of the Universo project (an arc in which she was absolutely MVP), or Projectra avenging Val at the end of the LSV war and then departing the Legion on her own terms.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Set:
quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: Another fact I never understood was why they never did female action figures, by the way. Even the Legion figures from the 90: Only one single female (Imra), no Tinya, no Luornu, no Jeckie, no Ayla... but a boring Colossal Boy, a boring Timber Wolf...
Anybody ever understood that?
To the 12th century mentalities behind toy manufacture;
[sarcasm] Boy Legion miniatures are 'action figures,' in the manly style of G.I. Joe, no doubt being played with in a rough and tumble socially acceptable 'boy' way, simulating combat and stuff. Ruff, ruff. Grrr.
Girl Legion miniatures are 'dolls,' particularly if any of their clothing bits / accessories are adjustable, encouraging the child to play 'dress up' and be all effeminate and practice socially unacceptable 'un-boy-like' behavior, and would irreparably damage the masculinity of any young male who played with them. 'Cause, yanno, to the healthy heterosexual male child, girls = icky. [/sarcasm]
I absolutely agree. When I was small -- five or six -- there was a popular line of Western dolls (we didn't call them action figures then) that featured a cowboy named Johnny West, his wife, son, and daughter, plus various friends and enemies. My parents bought Johnny and his son for me, but they absolutely refused to buy the wife and daughter! Their rationale: It just wasn't appropriate for boys to play with "girls" dolls. I thought this was strange. It left Johnny's family incomplete.
(Mom and Dad also had no problem buying me the villain, Sam Cobra, who came complete with sticks of dynamite and a pointy dagger concealed in a walking cane. The lesson: Bad guys okay. Girls not okay.)
A few years later, when DC started putting out action figures, the lineup included a few women -- Wonder Woman, Batgirl, and Catwoman. I was by then old enough to win the argument that I just wanted a complete line of the toys, even though Mom still thought it was strange for me to have "dolls".
Posted by Lard Lad on :
So...if LSH had killed more female members, would that have made LSH creators seem more progressive/equal rights-types...or more misogynist?
Is there any way to subject female comics characters to the same consequences as male characters without avoiding being labeled misogynist?
And if a male character is raped--as one of my own was (horrifically, I might add)--what does that say?
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
I'd intended on describing all the terrible things that happened to the Legion women during and after the 5YG, but I've suddenly spaced. I'll need a visual reference to help remind me...
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Hmmm.... actually, there were some horrors that happened during the Gap, namely the death of Tinya, the degradation of Mysa, the possession/mutilation of Dawnstar. But the weird thing is how so many of them just faded away, into quiet, more domestic existences.
Not that there's anything wrong with a quiet, domestic existence. It's just not what you'd expect from the Great Saturn Girl or Dream Girl or Shadow Lass. I recall really missing my favorites during TMK.
Posted by Thriftshop Debutante on :
Dream Girl, like Projectra, was leading her planet during TMK. (Domestic on a very large scale, okay, but quiet -- probably not.) We just didn't see much of it for either one.
Posted by Thriftshop Debutante on :
We didn't see a certain Bismollian Senator until he managed to wiggle his way off-planet (and, shortly after, outta office), did we?
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
I had begun to post a recap of what each of the Legion women were up to during V4, but it started to echo Lash's thread about how everyone fared.
Basically, if you were a fan of Tinya, Dawny or Mysa, you had some hurt to get through.
If you were a fan of Imra, Nura, Tasmia, Lu, Jecky and/or Ayla... well, none of them were heroines anymore. At least Ayla joined the Legion when it re-formed.
If you were a fan of Vi, she was definitely not the Shrinking Violet of the past. She had faced war and wore a scar to remember it. She re-joined the Legion.
That's 2 of them.
These aren't exactly deaths or tragedies, but as I said above, not getting to read about your favorite Legion characters in a Legion comic is disappointing.
The good news comes in the forms of Laurel Gand and Kono. I'd add Celeste Rockfish to that list, but Roxxas mushed her up pretty good.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Of course, later, Laurel would be killed and Ayla would be de-volved to a child.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
But Sussa would join and Mysa and Celeste would be rejuvenated.
GAh! It's a turnstile!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: So...if LSH had killed more female members, would that have made LSH creators seem more progressive/equal rights-types...or more misogynist?
Is there any way to subject female comics characters to the same consequences as male characters without avoiding being labeled misogynist?
I do think there's a balance. All super-heroes are going to be kidnapped/beaten/tortured/etc. in their existence.
I found the deaths of Supergirl and Phoenix very heroic and powerfully done, with no semblance of misogyny.
I think perhaps there's a tendency among some discussions to look wonder 'then are you saying that male heroes should be the ones to be killed, because that is also not fair?'. And of course the answer is, no of course not. It should be balanced. In Legion lore, I believe it is, generally.
But there are some very real examples of misogyny in comics (and film, etc.). The most disturbing of these is the sexualization of assault on women that is often presented.
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: And if a male character is raped--as one of my own was (horrifically, I might add)--what does that say?
I would prefer no character was raped in comics, whether male or female.
Yes, I understand that super-villains are more than just colorful enemies, but are real actual criminals and terrible people to be scarred of. But I don’t want Dr. Light to be the equivalent of the head Nazi/rapist from Oz.
Posted by Tromium on :
The discussion about violence against female characters reminds me that the notorious Avengers story where Hank Pym struck Janet Van Dyne was reportedly engineered by Jim Shooter (though written by someone else).
It was also Shooter who wrote the 1970s Legion stories in which Light Lass was slapped by Cosmic Boy and slugged by a Charma-smitten Timber Wolf. (Plus the one where Timber Wolf's Lotus fruit addiction almost drove her to suicide).
I hope he's kinder to Ayla this time around, especially since Geoff John's Lighting Saga Ayla may be dead.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: [QB] But there are some very real examples of misogyny in comics (and film, etc.). The most disturbing of these is the sexualization of assault on women that is often presented.
It's interesting that even coming from a fairly 'Silver Age' mindset, and geared towards young males, the Legion still has such powerful scenes as Karate Kid being the one to be die graphically, and Projectra to be the one who avenges the outrage. In the recent WaK portrayal, Cosmic Boy is the one being tortured, with Trip forced to watch, another reversal of the misogynistic trend of female characters suffering to firm up the male characters resolve and / or confirm to the reader that this bad guy is *really, really bad,* 'cause he's hurting a girl!
And yet, far more 'modernistic' portrayals from the same company have women being cut up and left as messages for their superhero boyfriends, or raped and set on fire.
On the one side, I'd expect the old-fashioned Silver Age mentality to be more old-thinking and patriarchal (which, to an extent, it was), and yet it's the comics that deliberately veer away from Silver Age sentiments that seem to be the most egregious offenders.
In the process of touting their books as 'more mature' or 'darker' or 'realistic' some DC writers have actually gone backwards and become literal throwbacks, the comic-book equivalent of the Gor novels, sensationalizing violence to women to shock and titillate their readers and stir up 'controversy.' Trumping up outrage and controversy has become a goal, rather than a side-effect of strong storytelling, as if today's DC titles were being edited by Jerry Springer or something...
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Set - well said, indeed.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: And yet, far more 'modernistic' portrayals from the same company have women being cut up and left as messages for their superhero boyfriends, or raped and set on fire.
Good lord...I know about the former (Kyle Rayner's girlfriend, right?), but raped and set on fire? Where did that happen and how the hell did whoever wrote that get away with it? Sometimes, creators take their freedom from the Comics Code too far...
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Lardy, Identity Crisis set the standard for 'lets kick off our new kewl era by gruesomely killing a beloved character'. For shits and giggles they inserted a rape into her backstory too, and the rapist has never gotten his comeuppance.
Not only dozens, but probably hundreds of examples exist before this, but this is the most striking one in recent years.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Okay, I remembered Sue's rape, or near-rape (?), since I did read Identity Crisis. But the implication in your post was that someone had been raped and then subsequently burned to death by the rapist. Obviously, Doctor Light was a suspect in her murder, but as you know, the culprit turned out to be Jean Loring, Ray Palmer's ex-wife.
I do hate that they killed off Sue Dibny, but I can see that it was done to polarize the readers and make them become invloved in the story (much as Marvel's Civil War was constructed by forcing the readers to choose sides with beloved characters). I mean, Sue and Ralph were arguably DC's most beloved couple, so if you were going to go for the jugular, that was the way to go.
So what if it had been Ralph who'd been sexually assaulted and murdered? I'm not advocating what was done to Sue at all, understand, but would this have made it better? You could argue that DC shouldn't ever have done Identity Crisis at all, but if you were going to tell the same story with that alteration, would it have been more acceptable?
I'll go on the record to say that I support the idea of Identity Crisis, if not the actual execution. Why? 1) Everything has it's seedy underbelly in real life, so why shouldn't the Silver Age? 2) It's folly to think that the secret's of super heroes would always be kept 100% safe with the kind of villains they faced and even greater folly to think there wouldn't be horrible consequences if those secrets were exposed. 3) What would our heroes do to protect their loved ones? I think the option shown here was logical, if not desirable. In real life the "heroes" probably would have killed them to protect their loved ones.
But you could argue there was double-misogyny committed here when it was revealed that Jean Loring was behind it all and did it for the love of a man! Good grief! That gives me an uncomfortable Susan Smith-type vibe--one that doesn't seem to fit a character who, as I recall, was the one who wanted the marriage to Ray to end in the first place and was shown acting all cold-hearted when they interacted post-breakup. WTF?
Yeah, there were some misogynistic tones to that story, but I'm more inclined to use Jean as more of an example of it than Sue. At least Sue's character wasn't assassinated, along with her life.
And yes, Doctor Light is long overdue for payback.
Posted by Chemical King on :
I guess what Cobalt Kid was saying that first, Sue was raped (and she was, not "near-raped" but raped, it's clearly to be read that the heroes arrived too late), and later on, she was set on fire by Jean Loring (whom I did not know before and was even more astonished that she could shrink as well - was that ever established before???).
Apart from the lame ending, it was a rather great story. Still, it was not full-heartedly done, as Alan Moore was saying: If DC would have been interested in doing a really epochal story, they would not have taken second-rate characters like Sue and Robins father to die... but for example Louis Lane.
The violence must not be part of modern stories, but in the case of Identity Crisis, I thought it was a good read. At least far better than the third case of "Universes die, whiteout, everything explodes and never will be the same again" as Infinite Crisis was... and there was lots of graphic violence as well...
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Sorry, it's been a long time since I read Identity Crisis. I recall reading the incident as an attempted rape, but in any case it was a brutal thing to be done to a well-loved character.
But Sue being set on fire was post-mortem. She had actually been killed by a brain aneurism that Jean caused by shrinking into Sue's brain. As I recall, Jean's intent had been to injure, not to kill, in order to further her goal of winning Ray back. The burning was done to cover up the actual cause of death, and, perhaps, to implicate someone else, like Light or Heat Wave.
As for Jean shrinking, I believe she used some of the material (white dwarf?) her husband used to do that.
Certainly, Ron Marz opened the door for this kind of thng with the unnecessarily brutal muder of Kyle Rayner's girlfriend, Alex (dismembered and stuffed in the refrigerater).
Probably the main precedent to that in terms of graphic murders of female characters was Elektra's murder by Bullseye in Frank Miller's classic Daredevil story. I don't know if many people point to that as a significant trend-setter (preceding Barbara Gordon's paralysis) or if a lot of people find (or found) it offensive, but it was quite a brutal death. Sure, she got better later, but the effect remains.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
All of that sounds just horrible to me! I do not want to read about any of that happening to Legion characters. I'm sure that sounds naive or idealistic.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Sketch Lad: All of that sounds just horrible to me! I do not want to read about any of that happening to Legion characters. I'm sure that sounds naive or idealistic.
I'm with you Dean!
But let's talk for a minute about terrible things happening to heroes or supporting characters.
You see, in Spider-Man, throughout his career, there has been a long standing series of moments where this happens. Indeed, its a part of the series (and almost all comic book series, but I'll focus here). In the last 1960s, an extremely important supporting character, Captain Stacey, is killed during a battle with Dr. Octopus. Nearly five four years later, Gwen Stacey, Spider-Man's love interest for many years at this point (and daughter of the previous mentioned supporting character) is killed, in probably what is the most famous 'girlfriend of hero dies in the story' issue ever.
Is there a difference in the deaths? Not really, in regard to male vs. female deaths in comics.
But let's fast forward to the late 1980's. Black Canary brutalized. Barbara Gordon, brutalized. Scores of other exmaples. Now the early 1990's, when Kyle Rayner's girlfriend is stuffed into a refrigerator. Months later, Guy Gardner's mother is stuffed into a refrigerator. Weeks later, Damage's girlfriend is killed. Again, scores of other examples.
Are there examples of males being brutalized? Yes.
Where then, is the difference between now and the Silver Age?
And that brings me to the topic of the sexualization of violence against females in various forms of entertainment. Because in the 1980's & 1990's, and still to this day, that notion is still extremely relevant. Are there instances that prove otherwise? Always. But the larger, more general sense is there.
Was it so in the earlier comic book ages. Yes--but to a much lesser degree. Lois tied up, hanging from a building is quite different than Kyle Raynor's girlfriend, brutally stuffed into a refrigerator by Major Force, where the villain then explains to Kyle that yes, it was slow, and yes, she screamed, and yes--well, you get the point.
Lardy in particular has asked about if violence against males would then be sexualized, would that make it more balanced? But I don't want violence against any comic book super-heroes to be sexual, or designed to sexually titilate.
Can it be powerful in literature? Of course. For instance, in films, the implied sexual predator in the original Cape Fear is gruesomely done by Robert Mitchum, but does indeed lend to the atmosphere of the film. On the other hand, the devastating implications of what happened to Peter O'Toole at the end of Lawrence of Arabia further give a sense to the viewer of his suffering.
What I'm trying to get at it is that in many instances, comic books in the last 20 years have not only depicted violence against women (and men) like in earlier eras, but have taken it a bit farther--by almost celebrating the sexualization of violence against women, and often times only for a cheap thrill to the story. The same is seen in film and other forms of entertainment.
To bring this completely back to the Legion, I do think, however, that the Legion is different in this regard. Violence has been equally given out (for the most part), largely non-sexual and all things Legion have always been more fair across gender-lines, at least moreso than anything that can be validly compared to it.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
While I believe it's necessary to kill characters and supporting characters (male and female) to show consequences, provide drama and change the status quo, I'm not into depicting it graphically in any "mainstream" comic. Alex Dewitt could've simply been murdered by Major Force and left at that, without the refrigerator, etc.
Anything more graphic should be left for "mature readers" comics. And I feel any graphic depiction of rape should be avoided even there.
Rape is a very heinous crime, obviously, and if it is explored in a comic at all (and I believe it should, to an extent), all titillation should be left out. The focus should be on the effects on the victim, so anyone who reads it, will understand the wrongness of it.
In my mind the Sue Dibny rape scene was not gratuitous or graphic, as the main effect left on me was the horror of it. And, of course, the fact it was such a beloved character and a ret-con made it even worse.
Of course, one of the bigger issues is that this kind of thing seems to be happening more and more to women in comics. It seems we're having fewer female characters who haven't been raped or brutalized at this point, and that is definitely sending the wrong message! it screams: "Women are victims!" And that's detestable.
And, no, I didn't mean to imply that doing this to males would "balance things out"--I was just wondering what the fan reaction would've been. When I wrote a scene where Lard Lad was raped, I felt I used restraint and avoided titillation and emphasized the horror of it. It was a very difficult scene to write and one I wasn't sure I should. Lardy's actions today are informed, to some degree, by what happened to him that day, so I feel it wasn't a gratuitous thing on my part.
But there is a decided lack of males being victimized in comics, especially when compared to the victimization of women. That's pandering, folks, and it ain't right!
I hope the Legion remains relatively "clean" in these terms, as it has historically. However, you have to admit Monstress's death was pretty brutal and graphic compared to all the other Legion deaths...
Posted by Set on :
The big deal for me is that 90% of what is being peddled to me as 'dark' or 'gritty' or 'mature' is actual puerile fantasy stuff meant to titillate the absolute lowest common denominator.
Comics tend to muddy the waters as well, often times portraying a telepathic violation (such as what Jean did to Emma) or some sort of physical infestation (such as the Brood implantation) as 'rape,' which, IMO, diminishes the act, and outrage it should invoke. Some things a person *shouldn't* become desensitized towards. Some things should *always* be outrageous, and every cheap shock-tactic hack of a writer who thinks he's being all edgy by showing us a character being raped is, IMO, missing the point.
Alan Moore's run on Swamp Thing, portrayed Abby as someone who had been a sex offender in her past, without actually getting all sensationalistic about depicting it. The consequences are what mattered, not the event itself. It's the only time I put the comic down and said, 'whoa,' because the idea that Abby could have done something like that made me seriously question whether or not I could like that character. It was an interesting place for me to be in, personally, and I was prompted to think about stuff I hadn't thought of since I was a child, and whether or not there ever could be forgiveness for such a thing, whether or not a person could learn and grow beyond some terrible act they committed many years ago. It's a no-brainer to explore whether or not a victim can 'get past' something, but it was a comic book that first made me realize that the perpetrator also had something to 'get past.' Very much a 'sympathy for the devil' moment, and a point where my thinking on the matter got a little less black and white, as it hit home that not everyone who gets hurt is a saint, and not everyone who hurts someone is a devil. If life goes on, then there is a chance for change.
To me, that was 'mature' writing.
Too many fictional portrayals of this sort of material fail to go past the 'I Spit on Your Grave' level of sensationalizing sexual violence to women (or, in the case of shows like Oz, men) to titillate the audience. It's the 'mature' version of a gory movie splashing blood on the screen, or having a cat jump out of the closet to make you jump, but rape shouldn't be reduced to a cheap shock tactic like this.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: And, no, I didn't mean to imply that doing this to males would "balance things out"--I was just wondering what the fan reaction would've been. When I wrote a scene where Lard Lad was raped, I felt I used restraint and avoided titillation and emphasized the horror of it. It was a very difficult scene to write and one I wasn't sure I should. Lardy's actions today are informed, to some degree, by what happened to him that day, so I feel it wasn't a gratuitous thing on my part
Lardy, just to clarify, I know you better than some others, so I'm speaking generally more towards the issue than any one poster (rather than make assumptions on any one posters sentiment).
Its a complicated issue that should definately be discussed. I just happen to argue all my points like they were 100% correct
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