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DOING THE RIGHT THING THE WRONG WAY - AVENGERS v. THUNDERBOLTS

As previously reported, Marvel’s Thunderbolts are due to return in March in a six-issue miniseries entitled Avengers vs. Thunderbolts. As the title suggests, this ain’t about the “Fight Club” Thunderbolts, but rather than reformed Masters of Evil. We caught up with co-writer Fabian Nicieza for more.

The full creative roster for the miniseries has grown since Newsarama first reported on the miniseries in early October, with Kurt Busiek (creator of the Thunderbolts and original series writer) joining Nicieza, and Barry Kitson illustrating. The full character roster – a lot: Captain America, Iron Man, the Vision, Scarlet Witch, Yellowjacket, and the Wasp for the Avengers; and for the Thunderbolts: Baron Zemo, Moonstone, Atlas, the Fixer, Vantage, and Songbird.

For the completely uninitiated, the Thunderbolts, as a team, first appeared during the Heroes Reborn event, when the x heroes of the Marvel Universe disappeared into a place and publishing initiative that is probably better left in the mists of time.

Long story short, the big guns of the Marvel Universe were gone, and suddenly a team of new heroes appeared, calling themselves the Thunderbolts. All went well for the team’s first mission, until Busiek and then penciller Mark Bagley hit readers with the surprise they never expected at the end of issue #1 – rather than being heroes, the Thunderbolts were in fact, the Masters of Evil, the frequent sparring partners of the Avengers. On a surprise ending scale of one to ten, the reveal was an 11.

The series with its current team ran for 75 issues (with Nicieza replacing Busiek as writer), and the team slowly reformed from criminals to heroes, albeit not without a good deal of internal strife and infighting.

Thunderbolts #76 featured one of the more notorious “exciting new direction” changes in recent years, removing the core characters from the series completely, and replacing the entire concept with one of an underground, superhuman fight club. Eight people liked it, and the series was cancelled, rather unceremoniously.

Just forget that fight club stuff, and you’re all set for March’s #1.

Newsarama: When we last spoke about this, it was all you. How did Kurt come in?

Fabian Nicieza: Kurt was asked first and he suggested bringing me in, but before that, Tom had asked me first and I suggested bringing Kurt in.

I'm doing all the work and Kurt will be getting all the credit.

Except for any parts that might come out bad, then I'll get the blame. That's only fair, since he's won Eisner's and all I've ever earned is scorn, money and hair loss.

NRAMA: Fair enough. The last time we saw the team proper was issue #75, but the series continued on for a little while longer. When does this story take place, specifically?

FN: The story takes place a few months after the events of Thunderbolts #75, but you don't have to be a Thunderbolts reader to "get" what's going on.

It's pretty basic: a group of former villains are performing world-saving acts, but they happily skirt international laws, national boundaries, etc. while doing it.

The Avengers -- who have some bad history with these folks -- are in a bit of a quandary. Should they stop the Thunderbolts or not? They don't trust Zemo, but on the other hand, their own teammate, Hawkeye, who had led the TBolts for a while, is vouching for them.

NRAMA: For those who may be coming in new though, the team is led by Baron Zemo. He’s had some history in the past, so which Zemo is this?

FN: Which Zemo is this one? What kind of a crazy question is that? You make it sound like the character has died once or twice, had his mind shifted from body to body and ended up usurping the body of his doppleganger from a Counter Earth... or something crazy like that.

NRAMA: Well…

FN: This is Baron Helmut Zemo, son of Captain America's original WWII foe, Heinrich Zemo. But... he's reformed. Really.

NRAMA: And as you said, Zemo leads the team in a way that, basically, is focused on getting the job done first and foremost, with everything else coming in second, right?

FN: Right - unlike the Avengers, the Thunderbolts are very willing to let the ends justify the means. They'll play a game of currying favors between countries, blackmailing political or corporate leaders, etc.

NRAMA: Kurt once said a long time ago, when speaking about the Thunderbolts, that a large part of the cache of the team has been about the seduction of good…but dong good is always harder than doing bad. For many of the Thunderbolts, this is an ongoing, internal, and occasionally external struggle to stay on the side of angels, right?

FN: Yes, it is, although some are farther along the path than others -- and some could very easily slide backwards. That's what makes them so interesting and unpredictable.

NRAMA: And that, along with the history of the two teams, means that battles between the Thunderbolts and Avengers can quickly escalate into very serious matters of life and death as old grudges resurface and displace the “better behavior” some of the T-bolts had been on?

FN: Nah. They're gonna play softball. Maybe have a luau. Beating each other over the head with sonic clubs and repulsor rays seems so... yesterday, doesn't it?

NRAMA: Oh come on - any specifics you can tease about the storyline, such as what gets the two groups in each others’ respective faces in the first place?

FN: Nothing. That'll be the fun part. It'll be quite a bit different than two teams smacking at each other. It's all about differences of opinions, shades of grey and the fine line between doing the right thing and doing it the wrong way.

And as we all know, that fine line can be a very subjective thing.

NRAMA: Well then, how about this - are you and/or Kurt looking at this as a springboard for a revised Thunderbolts franchise, or just a fun one-off – a story that was begging to be told to re-establish these guys in the Marvel Universe?

FN: I don't think Kurt or I are really looking at it that way. If anything, we're just happy to be able to tell the inevitable story of the "final" confrontation between these two teams. I've very glad to be writing it with Kurt because he is so good at finding the right way to make these big stories work on a small, character-based level.

We want to make definitive statements about many of the characters involved. We plan to shake things up quite a bit, yet still advance their status quos and leave many of them in new situations that could open up countless possibilities.

If reader interest and sales warrant a possible new monthly, then that just means we did a good job.

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Comix-Fan article:
One of Marvel's most popular super-teams, the Thunderbolts, are set to return next year under the direction of two of the original series' writers - Kurt Busiek and Fabian Nicieza - in a new mini-series entitled Avengers vs Thunderbolts. Edited by Tom Brevoort and featuring art by Barry Kitson, the book is set to debut in March next year.

ComiX-Fan caught up with Nicieza and Busiek to find out more about the series and its two star teams.

COMIX-FAN: Okay, first and foremost, how did the series come about?

KURT BUSIEK: Blackmail!

Actually, while that'd be a very T-Bolts-apropriate method, what happened was that Joe Quesada came to realize that perhaps what had happened to the series had not been the kindest or most positive way to treat it (and the horse's head Bags and I put in his bed had nothing to do with that, honest), and he went to Tom Brevoort and told him that if he wanted to bring the real guys back, he could do it.

Tom decided the best way to do it would be with an Avengers/T-Bolts mini-series. When he told me about it, I offered to help in any way I could, since I'd like to see the Bolts back in action more than anyone. I made the same offer to Fabes, and the way that shook down was that I'd co-write the mini - Fabes doing all the hard stuff, and me sipping banana dacquiris and giving orders about the correct shade of magneta for Zemo's head-bag.

Actually, what it boils down to is that Fabes and I hashed out a story together. Fabes writes up outlines, I suggest revisions, he writes a scrpt, I tinker with it, that sort of thing. More than a co-plotter, but less than a full-on co-writer. I may have launched these guys, and I want to see 'em do well, but Fabian's written them longer than I have by now, and he deserves the pilot's chair.

I should also note that I've got nothing against the Arcudi/Velasco Battlebolts version - I thought it was a very good book, and it looks great. It just shouldn't have been called Thunderbolts. If T-Bolts had continued, and Arcudi's book had launched as Marvel Beatdown #1, it might still be going. But as T-Bolts #76, nobody wanted to give it a try - the Bolts fans were angry and the non-Bolts fans didn't know there was something new.

FABIAN NICIEZA: I'm not "need to know," so I rarely know, but as far as I could piece the conspiracy together, Joe Q. told Tom B. that he could try some "old fogey" Thunderbolts when the monthly was cancelled. Tom B. either called Kurt first or me first, I'm not sure which. Kurt might have been in the bathroom at the time, so I answered first.

Tom said, "So about the Thunderbolts..."

I said, "You must be joking good sir." In a dignified British accent. Well, no, there were some curse words of surprise involved and my pathetic New Jersey accent.

So I said, "I want to do it. I'd rather do a limited series that picks up where we left off, but I want it to be a defining statement of what the team is - good and bad. I don't want it to be a TBolts only story, so I want something simple, but 'never been done before,' like, Avengers vs. Thunderbolts. And I want to co-write it with Kurt if he's interested."

Tom told me to ask Kurt. I did. Kurt said he wasn't sure. I reminded him of those pictures I have. He became very interested.

Now my work was done, because I figured I could just coast on Kurt and Tom's coattails all the way to the bank with foil-embossed covers that sell 3.6 million units a piece!

COMIX-FAN: Though the title may sum up much about the series, what is at its core?

NICIEZA: Good and bad. Right and wrong. And the very fine line between the two. It involves trust. Belief in redemption. And believing in yourself.

BUSIEK: Feudin', fussin' and fightin'!

Villains acting like heroes. Heroes acting like villains. Global brinkmanship. A heritage of power, and how it went wrong. Deep-seated insecurities, and how they could ruin everything. Faith. Distrust. Betrayal. Corpulent Eastern European politicians who can't keep it in their pants. Secret alliances. Backup plans. Espionage. Public relations. And the hitting. Always with the hitting!

COMIX-FAN: Regarding the team line-ups, will the Avengers team be pre- or post- Hawkeye's recent return to their ranks?

NICIEZA: Hawkeye is in the book. He's at Avengers Mansion, so he must be with the Avengers. Although, loyalties can be divided...

BUSIEK: Post. But whose side will he be on? Hawkeye's managed to be on the other team in clashes with the Avengers on a frighteningly reguilar basis. The Defenders. The original 'Bolts. He was even a JLA member briefly, in JLA/Avengers #3. You never know which way he'll jump.

COMIX-FAN: Will the Thunderbolts comprise the Zemo-led team at the end of Thunderbolts #75?

BUSIEK: For the most part, though I think there are a couple of changes, and a new member in the wings.

NICIEZA: Yes. Zemo. Moonstone. Fixer. Songbird. Atlas. Vantage and Blackheath. And the story will lead them to adding a new member as well.

And no, don't ask who it is because we're not going to tell you.

COMIX-FAN: Speaking of which, does the mini follow on from events in that issue?

BUSIEK: Not immediately, since time has passed. But as we begin, the Bolts are doing what they set out to do at the end of #75, though not necessarily in the way you'd expect. And the Avengers are deeply, deeply suspicious of it all.

NICIEZA: A few months have passed since TBolts #75. The team's status quo is pretty simple. Former villains who would-be heroes working to save the world. They just have an... interesting... perspective on what that means and how to do that.

Which is forcing the world's mightiest heroes to second-guess themselves about what to do...

COMIX-FAN: What do you ultimately hope to achieve with the book?

BUSIEK: Peace on Earth, good will toward men, a date with Anette Funicello... wait, that's my dad's list!

I'd settle for a gorgeous summer-blockbuster adventure story that puts the T-Bolts back on the map and reminds people of all the things that made them unique... and surprises the audience a time or three, as well.

NICIEZA: I think we ultimately hope to entertain everyone who buys it. Maybe end the plague that is humidity as well. That would be good. Peace in the Middle East? A longshot, but we'll try.

COMIX-FAN: Do you think the mini could lead in to a new Thunderbolts ongoing series?

NICIEZA: Again, there's those 3.6 million shiny shower curtain covers we're hoping for. If we can sell that many copies, then the bean-counters would probably be able to figure out what's what from there.

BUSIEK: We're not counting on it, but I'd love to see it happen. That's in the hands of the fans, I think.

1 & 2 covers & a page (9 from the address) from 1, all by Barry Kitson:

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Wizard Article:
AVENGERS BRACE FOR 'THUNDER' STORM
Busiek, Nicieza, and Kitson team on new 'AVENGERS VS THUNDERBOLTS' mini-series

The Avengers better get ready - there's a storm coming full of Thunderbolts

After an unsuccessful revamp with "Fight Club" overtones and subsequent cancellation, the Thunderbolts team of former villains-turned-heroes returns in a six-issue, March-launching mini-series that pits them against Earth's Mightiest Heroes, the Avengers.

Co-Writing the series, THUNDERBOLTS co-creator Kurt Busiek (JLA/AVENGERS) and former THUNDERBOLTS scribe Fabian Nicieza team up with artist Barry Kitson (EMPIRE) on a mini that Busiek said he jumped at teh chance to collaborate on.

"Fabian's doing the heavy lifting", admits Busiek of the AVENGERS VS THUNDERBOLTS series. "Fabian's the main writer and I'm the junior writer. It's nice to be involved. When [Editor] Tom [Brevoort] called and said there was a chance of THUNDERBOLTS coming back, I said, 'Well, if you want me involved in some way, I'd be happy to.' That's how it all started."

Accoding to Busiek, the new series, which could reinvigorate the franchise, will pit the Avengers against the Thunderbolts, with Hawkeye, a longtime Avenger and former T-bolts leader, right in the middle.

"The Thunderbolts are out there, doing their thing, saving the world," revealed Busiek. "But they're the Thunderbolts, not teh Avengers. They do things in a somewhat different way, especially since they're being led by Baron Zemo. And Zemo doesn't think like a traditional superhero; he thinks like a baron. The Avengers are convinced he's up to something."

The question at heart of the series is: Are the Thunderbolts heroes or are they still villains pretending to be heroes or are they heroes sliding back towards becoming villains?" posed Busiek. "Certainly there are those Avengers who think the Thunderbolts should be in jail. And then there are Avengers like Hawkeye, who have a lot of faith in the Thunderbolts."

As for the lineups of each respective team, look for Captain America, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Yellowjacket, and Wasp on the Avengers side, and Baron Zemo, Moonstone, the Fixer, Atlas, Vantage (looks to be Dallas' new codename), Blackheath (forgotten in the article, but Fabian's confirmed he's there) and Songbird on the Thunderbolts roster. But Busiek dropped a hint teasing that the Thunderbolts' organization will be expanding.

"The Thunderbolts will be getting a new member, but we're staying mum on that until the series comes out."

Oh, and after that crappy redesign from LL's thread, here's the ACTUAL Zemo redesign Heckavalot better, huh

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From: The Mainframe | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by DrakeB3003:
Sweet! Thanks for the inside scoop Matt.

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From: The Mainframe | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Sanity or Madness?:

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Originally posted by DrakeB3003:
Sweet! Thanks for the inside scoop Matt.

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Matt?

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Oops! For some reason I thought that was a Coipel redesign and I associate Matt with Coipel related scoops ....

From: New York, NY | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged |