Topic: The Official Infinite Crisis Spoiler Thread
Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
I suppose if I actually recognized any of those characters from the Crap Age of Comics, I'd have been a lot more enthusiastic about their demise. Unfortunately, I don't have your Encyclopedic knowledge of the Bloodlines characters, Cobie...
Of course, we don't know all the consequences of this, yet. But I'm just not optimistic about it really making anything any better than it has been for the past twenty years. And I'm still not happy with the treatment of the Crisis survivors.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I think a lot of you are missing the point. This Crisis wasn't primarily about fixing continuity problems or Changing Everything Around. I would say that these are the motivations for this Crisis:
4. (I might rank this one higher.) To tell a story that they thought was cool and to pay tribute to cool stories of the past.
3. To provide an opportunity for making changes in continuity, where appropriate; to loosen the grip of some of the silly continuity constraints that have applied over the past couple of decades; to thin out the herd of some of the characters they didn't want to use anymore.
2. To have a Big Event that sells a lot of comic books. Which is fair enough.
1. To revise the tone of the DC Universe - heroes more heroic, villains more villainous, more emphasis on secret identities, more differentiation between characters, all the stuff the DC creators been saying in chats and interviews and panel discussions. I believe them when they say this because a) it makes sense that they would want to do it, and b) we've already seen it happen in the pages of Legion. Will they be able to pull it off? I'm glad to have the opportunity to find out.
Anyway I liked it okay. Some quibbles:
Not sure I liked the Wonder Woman / Batman / Alex Luthor scene. I can't decide if it was trite and hokey or not. I'm gonna have to think about it some more.
That big splash page at the end... "I know the world is in good hands." Yeah, I'm sure Catman and OMAC and Lobo will take care of the place real nice while you're away. I mean, I know that page is supposed to promote the comics DC's got coming out in the near future, but let's not be silly about it.
I don't have a problem with Superboy-Prime's behaviour. The guy didn't have anything like a normal life and he's completely lost perspective on everything. It all got out of control on him and now he's in a situation he never expected to be in and can't process. I hope the GL Corps can video-project some kind of psychiatrist into that box to talk to him. He's never going to come to his senses all by himself.
Also don't have a problem with how easily the Joker took down Alex Luthor. Alex showed himself to be a master strategist, an undistinguished tactician and a lousy soldier. He's just not that good in a fight and there's no way he'd be ready for someone like the Joker.
posted
Nope. Neither am I. I felt burned after Identity Crisis and I feel burned after this. Maybe over time things will be sorted out but as of right now, I really don't care.
I'm with Nightcrawler. DiDio is making some bad choices here and I'd really like to see him gone. It really seems he has no respect for the material.
Jamie
From: Wood River, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
But at least Identity Crisis didn't alter the basic background of the DCverse. I haven't read this yet, but if this is the ending, I'm very disappointed. They've been hyping this thing for over a year, and it doesn't sound like the series has achieved ANY of its objectives as stated above by Matthew, with the obvious exception of selling more comic books. It took me a while to stop buying Marvel's stupid crossovers, and as of now I won't buy any more of DC's either. So can someone explain what exactly was the point?
-------------------- The only consistent feature of all of your dissatisfying relationships is you.
Don't judge me!
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Matthew E brilliantly summarizes the real objectives of this really huge story. In the end, this was about 1) shifting the tone of the DC universe, especially for the Big 3, and 2) wiping out alot of the bad character and continuity decisions made AFTER the original COIE series. We seem to now have a DC universe that remembers Earth-2, remembers Kal-L, has a place for Power Girl, but DOESN'T have a place for a lot of the balderdash done to Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and others in the 1987 to 1994 period. I think that's a GREAT outcome, personally, and it takes us to where we should have been in 1986. For example, with any luck, we will now have a Superman who is a fine updating of his Golden Age and Silver Age predecessors, which is what would have happened if someone like Alan Moore had written Superman post-COIE.
What's amazing to me is the sheer scope of this story over the past year. I guess I will have to sit down and try and read it all to see if it hangs together. What started with what seemed like a power grab by Max Lord morphed into a huge story where much of the significant events (OMAC, Spectre, Rann-Thanagar) were really by-products of the central conflict, the effort of Alex Luthor and Superboy-Prime to create a new reality. This whole story had a depth and scope not unlike, say, the Second World War.
I am not at all disappointed that we are left with SB-Prime still around. I think he is fascinating because he illustrates how lucky the rest of the DC universe is that the "real" Superman turned out okay.
As for revealing ALL the intricacies of the New Earth backstory, do you think these guys are IDIOTS?!?! They WANT you to keep reading the comics to find out!
-------------------- ...but you don't have a moment where you're sitting there staring at a table full of twenty-five characters with little name signs that say, "Hi, my superpower is confusing you!"
From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I think the main thing that turns me off this whole event is the fact that there doesn't seem to be much respect for the characters involved. From the retconned rape and brutal death of Sue Dibny to the brutal butchering of countless characters to the twisting of characters. I get the point of what they were trying to achieve in the end, and in many ways I think they have. I just question the ways in which they got there.
-------------------- Some people are like slinkys: not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when you knock them down a flight of stairs
From: Penthouse atop Levitz Hall, LMBP Plaza, Embassy Row, Legion World | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
And I like that they did it without restarting everything. For the most part, continuity has not been drastically changed. It's been loosened up, and there have been and will be some tweaks, but essentially we're still reading about the same world we read about last year.
I'm not happy Superboy-Prime's still alive. I regard him as an unwelcome loose end. However, I am happy that Superman and the rest didn't kill him. That would have undercut the entire series, if they had done that.
One seven-issue series, no matter how hyped, can't make the entire DC Universe perfect. And I think that's what a lot of people wanted. It's going to have to be done story by story in each of the individual titles over the next however many years. And obviously there are going to be both successes and failures. But I think that this whole enterprise puts DC in a good position to be addressing that future, and I'm glad they did it.
quote:These days, you never know who's going to die... and who's going to live.
quote:Originally posted by Spellbinder: I think the main thing that turns me off this whole event is the fact that there doesn't seem to be much respect for the characters involved. From the retconned rape and brutal death of Sue Dibny to the brutal butchering of countless characters to the twisting of characters. I get the point of what they were trying to achieve in the end, and in many ways I think they have. I just question the ways in which they got there.
There's some truth to that. But you could go through Infinite Crisis and all its satellites and find countless examples of times when they were quite respectful of lots of other characters. Including some that we never would have expected.
posted
True, but we won't see the characters they killed again. I would have liked to see them go out with more dignity. Even "third or fourth tier" characters have their fanbase.
-------------------- Some people are like slinkys: not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when you knock them down a flight of stairs
From: Penthouse atop Levitz Hall, LMBP Plaza, Embassy Row, Legion World | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: And I like that they did it without restarting everything. For the most part, continuity has not been drastically changed. It's been loosened up, and there have been and will be some tweaks, but essentially we're still reading about the same world we read about last year.
Two words - Wonder Woman. If she was been around to found the JLA, her continuity is in tatters as of now.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
I liked it. It excited me, thrilled me, awed me, and saddened me. I knew S-Prime wouldn't be removed from play. The WW/Bats moment seemed odd, as if their roles should have been reversed. Nightwing's fall was dulled by the fact I knew he survived OYL. But it hit all the notes an ending needed to hit.
We know DC isn't ever going to make drastic, sweeping changes. They have reordered their history, and that will never please everyone. We have to look at all these mini-series as separate stories told in a shared universe. On its own, this was a good story. Tied to IC and 52, well we're only in the middle arc.
From: Denver, CO | Registered: May 2004
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
But the problem is, as 'Boot pointed out, that they are making drastic, sweeping changes, but only selectively. This is exactly the same kind of mistake they made with the first Crisis. Just as the stupid rebooting of Wonder Woman the first time, while trying to keep everything else as constant as possible, just managed to screw stuff up, it seems likely their selective rebootings this time around are just going to cause more problems.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
True, I'd say that the biggest problems will be WW and Superman. Also with Matrix Supergirl out what happened to the whole "pocket universe saga"
The one hope is that that this time they've already decided what will be rebooted and have a book somewhere with an outline of how that effects everyone else in the DCU. This would prevent the "Hawkworld phenomenon" three years down the road.
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Well, the big thing with continuity is this: it's only a problem if you let it be a problem. As a comic book writer/editor, you can just say, "Yes, it's inconsistent, but I'm not going to worry about it. I'm going to get on with telling good stories."
I think it's possible that having Wonder Woman as a retroactive founder of the League will help with those stories. I think it's possible that that extra Supergirl would just have been getting in the way to no purpose. I'm not convinced of either of those things, because I don't know enough about them; I was away from DC during that time. But it could be.
There are always going to be continuity problems. There have to be, because comic book characters aren't allowed to age naturally. So they're always going to be changing stuff. The only thing you can do about it is not think about it too hard; it's the price you pay for having this genre in this medium.
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