It's very obvious my definition of a "hero" is different from his... whatever HIS is.
His comments on Chris Reeve, in whatever context, really have me questioning what Byrne's idea of a hero is.
Did Reeve CHOOSE to be paralized? Of course not. But instead of disappearing into some self-pitying hole, he CHOSE to lobby for himself and others affected by spinal injuries. He CHOSE to make the most of what he still had.
Not to trivialize Reeve's plight, but just for a second, I want to make a comicbook comparison. A given hero, say Spider-Man, is heroic not because he has powers; his heroism comes in choosing to do what he considers right in the face of daunting challenges. Heroism in the world of Spidey is not hanging up the tights when the world seems against you.
Reeve sounds like a hero to me.
And Byrne, while never someone I considered a "hero" by any stretch of the imagination, WAS a favorite creator and artistic inspiration. But the man's ego and mouth have finally killed the last vestiges of my respect for him and his work. I sincerely hope that WHEN the "new, improved" Doom Patrol flops, the comic book world will look elsewhere for a creator.
Posted by Lady Crujectra on :
The days when I rushed out to by a John Byrne book are long in the past for me. Not so much because of what he says or what he believes, but because I don't feel his work has the quality that it once held. The last good thing I read by Byrne was the Next Men, several years ago. Since then, his artistic style has shifted beyond my ability to adapt, and his writing seems to hinge more on what HE thinks is right and sensible, rather than what builds on the foundations made by past creators.
Which doesn't mean that I won't ever buy another Byrne creation. It just means that I go into it without expecting too much from it.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
If the store was out of TP?
Posted by Pov on :
Posted by 235 - Andy S on :
quote:Originally posted by Lady Crujectra: The last good thing I read by Byrne was the Next Men, several years ago.
100% agreement here
Next Men was good stuff, and then the Byrne Engine kind of puttered out IMO. Nothing new, nothing interesting - all of his projects since have been along the lines of "BYRNE'S MASTERVISION OF {Marvel/DC Property}". And from the looks of it on the shelf - it all pretty much looks the same and sells to the same 20,000 people. I guess they like it.
And he's one of those people who probably needs someone else to edit his online personality, as the bitterness and over-inflated ego of this man leaves a stench on his work. Posted by icefire on :
Not a Byrne fan at all!!!!!
Posted by Stargazer on :
I have to say..I agree with the board. There has not been any wow's from him in a long time. I have picked up the first four issues of Doom Patrol and it doe not leave me wanting more. Sad..very sad
Posted by Yellow Kid on :
I disagree on Byrne's level of storytelling skill. The best stuff he's ever written for himself is his first published work at Charlton, Rog 2000 was funny as hell but that's all. He reminds me of a second rate hack from the old pulp sci-fi days. I think he'd do a fine job (with some more experience in the field) selling short sci-fi pieces to magazine markets but his comic books are boring.
Posted by Star Boy on :
Byrne is an overrated hack. Posted by MLLASH on :
I want Geoff Johns on DOOM PATROL!
Posted by Star Boy on :
I want Doom Patrol to at least give a tip of the hat to past continuity... Posted by Lightning Lad on :
If Johns took over I might pick it up. At least I would be guaranteed Gar would be treated correctly and fairly.
Byrne's day is done. I think his remarks show just that. He knows it and probably doesn't care. Not that he has ever cared much for the people who buy his comics anyway. I have never heard one positive store about meeting him at a con or a signing.
Posted by capt._dallas on :
I don't know if everyone has seen the actual (1st) thread where Byrne makes the comment (it's a closed thread now):
one more nail in the Byrne coffin. I'm honestly not suprised. In his little farce of logic, he says, heroism requires choice. Mr. Reeves choose to become a model for the sick and paralyzed: an Avatar of Hope. God bless him for what he did. And Byrne, if you're reading this, I am ashamed of you, on behalf of the human race.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Quick and dirty...you shouldn't if he offends you that much.
I ...just don't care about him one way or the other. I love the DP. I even have a few of the orginal stories that ended before i was born, i think. But since Grant's run, i have every DP appearance i can get, good and bad.
When i read the book, i don't think much of his opinions on much of anything. I want a good book, period.
The first two issues just plain stunk because they continued a very weak storyline, and had the JLA'ers out of character. The second storyline was better in terms of weird action/pulp adventure style. He needs a dialog-ist to help though, he still writes in terms of 70's era chatter.
As for his comments, some people cant help vomiting dumbass comments. It's like terminal stupidity. I don't agree with much of what i have seen attributed to him, but in america, you have the right to say or post dumbass things, which shows everyone just how much of an ass you are.
My thoughts, anyway.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
*and yes, i know, some folks think my political leaning is dumbassed as well. Like i said...lol.
Posted by Director Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: As for his comments, some people cant help vomiting dumbass comments. It's like terminal stupidity. I don't agree with much of what i have seen attributed to him, but in america, you have the right to say or post dumbass things, which shows everyone just how much of an ass you are.
My thoughts, anyway.
I will defend to the death John Byrne's right to say whatever dumbassed thing comes into his head. Doesn't change the fact that he's a bitter old hack who will say anything to generate controversy and call attention to himself.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Maybe he should do a book staring baseball great John Rocker, lol.
Posted by ANIMEAvenger on :
And to THINK, THIS certain writer/artist use to gain my respect in the day. *sighs and shakes head ashamingly*
AA
Posted by RTVU2 on :
wow, those people are mean over there on the john byrne forum. I am glad I am here at Legionworld were everyone respects each other.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I want Geoff Johns on DOOM PATROL!
I want Geoff Johns on every DC book!
And then just for the hell of it--I want Geoff Johns on Lash!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
For Rick and others, a favorite quote of mine that you might all like:
"Every man has the right to utter what he believes to be truth...and every other man has the right to knock him down for it."- Samual Johnson.
That was my High-school senior quote!
Posted by capt._dallas on :
quote:Originally posted by RTVU2: wow, those people are mean over there on the john byrne forum. I am glad I am here at Legionworld were everyone respects each other.
I think those members sort of use Byrne's responses as a template for their own. They see Byrne call one poster an "ass", so they all follow suit.
Like you, after I read through the John Byrne forum thread, I became SO GLAD that my frequent haunts are here and Geoffjohns.com. MUCH nicer places to have dialogue.
Posted by Kent on :
Byrne ran out of ideas 15-20 years ago.
But at least he's into recycling, even if not very well.
Posted by RTVU2 on :
Agree Captain. Byrne has set a very defensive tone over at his boards that just seem to get plain mean. Nothing Byrne has done has even remotley intrested me in a long time.
Posted by Pov on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I want Geoff Johns on DOOM PATROL!
I want Geoff Johns on every DC book!
And then just for the hell of it--I want Geoff Johns on Lash!
It was a terrible, rotten, horrible decision to reveal to May that Peter is Spider-Man and only one in a string of mistakes that JMS has made on the title. It also underscores the wrongheadedness of "growth" and "evolution" of character because it robs Spider-Man of everything he is; he IS burdened with the guilt of his part in his Uncle's death, he CAN'T tell May for fear that she will reject him, and his driving force, his reason for being, his entire motivation is fueled by these two things. If one is taken away by an apology an author thought was too long in coming, then they are the selfish ones, the ones with no respect for the character, for taking that away from them.
*******
Most of us, as fans, will find ourselves occasionally reading a favorite title and thinking "That's not what I would have done!" We the border is crossed, and a fan becomes a pro, there is a tremendous temptation to actually do all those stories and "bits" that we thought up in years of reading. It takes a great deal of self-restraint (more than some writers possess, apparently) to hold back and look at the characters and the stories, and realize that maybe something we didn't like is either serving a purpose in the greater scheme of things or, even more likely, simply best left in the past, to fade away of its own accord.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Other comic runs Byrne has stated as hating:
Peter David's Hulk- which was incredible, up until about the time Byrne decided to jump on board for six issues and ruin it.
Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol- jeez, you think this might have been better than his crappy 70's DP right now?
And now JMS's Spidey? Has anyone forgotten how terrible Byrne's last Spidey run was? TERRIBLE!!! What did he do? Well, he brought back Aunt May in one of the stupidest, worst bringing someone back from the dead/they were never dead retcons for starters. May's death was a beautiful story and Byrne's bringing her back was just crap (more on this in my Spidey review thread whenever I get to that point). What else? Oh yeah, crappy new third rate villians, a new Rocket Racer and the return of Madame Web! Wow, way to go John, way to bring in the big time baddies! I'd take the Spidey clone saga over his run any day! I'm furious about JMS's latest Spidey story, but his whole run up until now has been fantastic IMO.
Bryne should put down his comic book critics cap and get back to what he's good at: being a racist and a moron who insults a heroic man who faced being crippled in the public eye days after that man passes away.
[ October 21, 2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Cobalt Kid ]
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
And just to remind everyone, here are some of the characters that have suffered third degree ‘Byrnes” over the years:
Jean Grey and the Phoenix (Probably his most famous, although Claremont is sometimes blamed) Superboy and the Legion (the most important to most of us) The Doom Patrol Wonder Woman and her mother Aunt May, Norman Osbourn and Spider-Man Supergirl
What is it with Byrne and his crappy retcons? I know there are others, but I just can’t think of them right now.
Posted by Amentep on :
quote:Originally posted by capt._dallas: I think those members sort of use Byrne's responses as a template for their own. They see Byrne call one poster an "ass", so they all follow suit.
Like you, after I read through the John Byrne forum thread, I became SO GLAD that my frequent haunts are here and Geoffjohns.com. MUCH nicer places to have dialogue.
As I said on Geoff Johns, I lurk at Byrne's place occasionally. Usually its only when I see something announced from him and am curious for more information. He posts stuff there, previews and pencils and things. Did that a lot after Doom Patrol was announced to see what he was thinking...
Anyhow, I've never liked the vibe of the forum, so never registered or posted. That's not to say the forums are horrible, as there are always different forums for different people. GeoffJohns.com and LegionWorld are much more my speed for comics discussion.
I used to love Vietch's comicon.com, until every forum there became the gutters and you couldn't have a conversation for people derailing your thread arguing back and forth about each others net personalities.
Anyhow, as I said on GJ.com, I think Byrne's comments have been taken in a way that he didn't directly mean them. I think he was exagerating for effect in making a point, and that it was tactless and possibly tasteless, but I don't think it was the indictment against Reeve that a lot of people see.
But that's just me. Maybe I'm too willing to give people the benifit of the doubt.
[ October 21, 2004, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Amentep ]
Posted by Zombie STU on :
How could anyone dislike John Byrne?
His writing is so relevant to today's issues, and so clearly captures the way real people talk.
And his art has evolved in leaps and bounds over the years, too.
(Was I able to say that with a straight face? )
Posted by ferroboy on :
I'm surprised you could, STU. I have learned to hate Byrne over the years, both for his sub-par work and his arrogance.
Posted by Zombie STU on :
Actually, I can't stand the guy.
I tried to buy the new Doom Patrol out of loyalty to the title, but couldn't deal with Byrne...
Posted by googoomuck on :
I really liked Superman Batman Generations I & II. Generations III however sucked.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
I see it kinda like this...
Hitler was a fan of Wagner's work. Wagner had absolutely nothing to do with him as far as i know, but his music was used, and because of that, for decades it was never played in Isreal. Only a few years ago was a Wagner opera performed there. I understand the hatred for the accutriments of Hitlers reign, but it was only until a few years ago that it was performed.
Byrne is working on characters that are considered legendary. I have a great love for them because they were to me the anti-xmen. Bred and Born at DC, they were underdogs with a certain cool long before i was introduced to claremont's "cool xmen".
My love of the characters has absolutely nothing to do with the person writing them, unless he starts letting his personal views and feelings interfere with the book. At that point, i would voice my displease with the book itself.
It isn't easy to seperate the two ideas, but i can do it right now. As for Byrne, i think he needs to just shut up for a while about his opinions. After all, everyone knows the old saying about them and who has them.
I think it would serve him well, and quit distracting from the work itself.
That said, the great thing about the USA is that everyone has the right to insert their heads in nearly anotomically impossible places.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Zombie STU: How could anyone dislike John Byrne?
His writing is so relevant to today's issues, and so clearly captures the way real people talk.
And his art has evolved in leaps and bounds over the years, too.
(Was I able to say that with a straight face? )
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: [QB]My love of the characters has absolutely nothing to do with the person writing them, unless he starts letting his personal views and feelings interfere with the book. At that point, i would voice my displease with the book itself. [QB]
Rick, I totally understand the first point, as I would do the same with Spider-Man and the Legion.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Thanks, Cobie. I appreciate it. Seems like for once i was able to clearly articulate my thoughts on something.
Posted by 235 - Andy S on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Thanks, Cobie. I appreciate it. Seems like for once i was able to clearly articulate my thoughts on something.
lol there's something ironic about saying this in defense of byrne who is apparently unable to effectively come to his own defense ... his lack of articulate explanations reflects his (IMO) rigid and unimaginative storytelling for me
of course: none of these opinions could be posted on byrne's own forum as the web MASTER there doesn't allow such free speeches
and as for the Doom Patrol -- they are undoubtedly some cool characters -- Morrison took them to the next level in hero possibilities and then it all just unravelled ... i'd rather see some visionary folks putting the Doom Patrol out there rather than what's happenned/going on now
Crazy Jane, the Negative Entity (Man, Woman or Rebus), Robotman, a few new ones (someone from Gorilla City? Lady Quark? refugees from Atlantis, Earth-2 and/or Gemworld? Owlwoman? Phantom Stranger? Black Orchid?) -- all facing the odd parts between Vertgio & DCU?
could have been cool especially with innovative, consistent creators on it
![[LOL]](graemlins/lol.gif)
![[The Mess]](graemlins/Mess.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)