posted
Death of Superboy This could have still happened. The Pocket Universe still could have been created by the Time Trapper to mess with the Legion, and the pocket universe Superboy still could have died. Maybe the Legionnaires assumed this was the real Superboy, and started the Conspiracy?
If the pocket universe did not exist, then Superman never would have executed the three kryptonians from the Phantom Zone, Matrix would never have existed to be "Supergirl" and Superman would not have exiled himself and came across the Eradicator and Mongul.
The pocket universe has to exist in continuity. What do you guys think?
posted
It's pretty much established that we didn't have a Conspiracy. For one thing, Mon-El is still alive.
And Superman has had his history rewritten several times since that pocket universe story, so saying "if there was no pocket universe, then Superman..." is pointless.
Really, the pocket universe was an awful patch job that was the best that could be done at the time, but which we're better off without if we don't need it any more.
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
I'm pretty sure it was said by Geoff or whoever that there was no pocket universe in an interview (which we're using to complete the continuity).
But oh boy, talk about a headache for Superman's history. Good thing Matrix is officially eliminated from continuity already so its already a mess .
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Someone mentioned in another thread that Reflecto was missing from the statues. I don't think that counts; it's a different set of statues after all. I know that normally "dead Legionnaires" is a subset of "all Legionnaires", but the special circumstances of Reflecto would mean that just because he's in the dead Legionnaires set doesn't mean he's in every set.
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
Yeah, I only mentioned him because I remember a memorial statue of him at the end of the Reflecto storyline. BTW, by listing the statues missing in Lo3W, I didn't mean to imply that I thought those Legionnaires' deaths are no longer in continuity. I was just trying to show that the statues shown were incomplete, therefore not answering the question of whether Magnetic Kid was dead or not. In other words, I was of no help at all! LOL!!
From: elizabeth,nj | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I added a bit about Iris West Allen a few days ago, and after looking at Luornu's scene in Legion of Three Worlds, fixed that reference.
I'm starting to suspect that Countdown was simply a mistake. Whoever wrote it just didn't realize that 1) Karate Kid shouldn't be alive in the preboot, and 2) Luornu shouldn't be down to one body, since there was no Conspiracy. It's not as if Countdown didn't have plenty of other mistakes (so many that it's not completely in continuity).
As for Luornu's new powers, Mutiny of the Super-Heroines (Adventure #368) has her gaining the ability to split into many duplicates; maybe someone found a way to make that happen again. (Edited post: I originally confused this with the Femnaz story from #326.)
[ May 05, 2010, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
That answer's not good enough for me. Countdown was advertised a being "the spine of the DC Universe" for the time that it was in print. It was a weekly comic that was a big financial investment for those who were loyal to DC and picked it up consistently. That doesn't apply to me. I only picked up occasional issues and felt ripped off just doing that. There should be an attempt to explain the contradictions other than just "mistakes" or saying that is wasn't completely in continuity.
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
Well, it was Johns and Meltzer who brought Karate Kid back for the Lightning Saga, so I don't think you can blame it solely on Countdown.
And wasn't it Thora that enhanced Lu's powers?
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Yeah, I just misremembered it. I corrected it a few minutes later but you people respond at exactly the wrong times.
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
And personally, I'm happy with saying mistakes are mistakes. See my first reply on page 1. Sometimes it can be interesting to retcon away a mistake, and sometimes it's even necessary, but there's a point where fixing the mistake isn't worth forever making the series' history 1% or 2% harder to understand.
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
I think the KK and Lu's places on the current list are appropriate and the related issues need to be addressed. I'm also fine with mistakes being overlooked, at times. Not here, though. Countdown was advertised as being central to understanding where the DC Universe was going. As with any series, I would be be fine letting minor mistakes in Countdown slide, but not major plot lines. Their involvement was substantial, and as EDE points out, Karate Kid was a major player in the Lightning Saga.
Pretty comprehensive list, btw. I agree with most of the categorization. Carry on.
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Also fixed the statues. The disappearances hadn't happened as of Legion of Three Worlds and are a red herring.
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
This is a great thread Ken! I kept meaning to do something like this but was too lazy so well done to you for putting all the effort into it!
Going through some of the things you mention -
* I don't think even DC has fully decided yet what's going on with that whole pocket-Universe idea. Retconning it out completely invalidates a whole bunch of good storylines that I'd hate to lose, but working it into current continuity seems like it would require a 12 issue-long byzantine explanation.
I still say that it all could have happened and the effects of it (like Mon and Lu dying) were just reversed somehow between the end of the Baxter run and the beginning of the Johnsboot.
* The statues are a complete non-issue to me and don't really belong on this list IMO. Artists leave characters off group shots all the time. Doesn't mean anything.
* The Miracle Machine could have been rebuilt or something between S&LSH #251 and Final Crisis. Or else it just willed itself back into existence. It is the Miracle Machine after all. Not much of an issue for me.
* The Wildfire/Red Tornado and Jeckie/two hearts things need to be forgotten and never mentioned again!
I feel like there are a few other things you've missed but I can't quite think of them now. If I remember them I'll let you know.
One that I don't think is an issue though is this one -
quote:Originally posted by Set: Myg went from younger than the rest of the team and a bronze-skinned asian to a caucasian with some grey hairs.
I'm really not seeing that in the issues of Lo3W I've got. He's got a beard yes but doesn't look any older than the others to me and his skin tone still looks a lot more orange/yellow/grey (whatever the colourists use to denote 'other' race characters) than the caucasian Legionnaires.
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
Couldn't there be more than one Miracle Machine? The Controllers built the thing. It always seemed to me improbable that they gave away the only one they had.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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In my mind what I think they were trying to do with him was... they knew they were bringing back the 'original' Legion and whoever was planning that (Johns and Meltzer?) were probably big Val fans who thought they'd give him one last hurrah before putting him to sleep again.
So they gave him a few cool moments in JLofA (and if he hadn't been rather ridiculously jobbed by Batman in their fight that would have been a cool moment too) as well as a starring role in what was supposed to be their BIG series of 2008(?)(though we all know how that turned out).
But he was always scheduled to die again so as not to change the status quo of the Baxter Legion too much (and I think Giffen even said as much - that the decision to kill Karate Kid in Countdown had already been made and he just jumped at the chance to write it).
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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