posted
Well, here’s Part III! This is something I hope to start a series of, so, er, I hope no one goes and steals my thunder or something and starts another one of these! Thanks!
A quick word -- So…as the history of the LSH progressed, members kept being introduced, especially in the early years. If you think about it though, the introduction of each new member must have had social consequences for the group as a whole—especially as seen in relation to other events occurring at that time both in terms of Legionnaire-related things (re: Death of Lightning Lad) or social things (re: Jo and Tinya start going out). Having historical hindsight is also beneficial, as we know later how things turned out and can make some connections that might not be self-evident early on. Of course, what the writer intended when he wrote something could by and large be entirely inconsequential. Who cares if they meant for Luornu and Tinya to be good friends and maybe Vi feel a little left out? It sure might seem like that with 40 years of retrospect and character development!
Supergirl and Brainiac 5
The introduction of Supergirl and Brainy is a major, major, major LSH moment. These are two bigtime members, and the LSH actually going back in time to get Kara to join must have been HUGE. I’ve never really seen a story that discusses why Supergirl would join before Superboy (which we know is really an editorial retcon), but I guess it would be a ‘test run’ to be sure they got it right for Clark, although that doesn’t hinder the fact that they really wanted Kara to join.
In retrospect of the Legion’s history, I’d argue that Brainy joining was way more important than Kara, but at the time, it probably didn’t seem that way. But Brainy was pretty famous too, especially with all his work in time travel, being part of the Dox family, and being the first Coluon to leave Colu and come to Earth with a lab to work.
I think with Supergirl, every Legionnaire would gravitate toward her right away, and she would never really be part of any clique or group. All the founders would be happy beyond measure that she’d join and the girls would love the idea of having her as their ‘super-girlfriends’. As Dean said in another thread, I can see that bit as Luornu’s idea, which helped get Tinya and Imra into it. All the other LSHers (Gim, Cham, Lyle) would be equally as happy to have her, although they might be slightly less close to her.
With Brainy, I can see some hesitation among the Legionnaires to except him—but I just can’t see it from any of these active Legionnaires. The founders would all be accepting and welcoming, and Imra especially would feel this way. Brainy and Imra’s friendship would probably not grow into what it was until a little later, but I can see the sparks of it from the get-go. Brainy’s best friend, of course, would be Lyle (out of all the active members, since his other best friend I’ve always thought to be Superboy), and Cham would feel a mutual connection in both being physically different and the same type of rational-thinking minds. Gim, Tinya and Luornu I can all see as accepting, although maybe not being as close. I think Luornu would eventually grow to trust Brainy and have some type of understanding with him, when he began to examine and help her in regards to her strange Carggitte status.
I think above all, Brainy was trusted very much in the Silver Age, up until Computo, when that trust may have been shaken in some. However, his ‘cold, unemotional’ mind may have always turned some people off at various times, and taken some getting used to for some. Others, like Lyle, would have gotten over that very fast.
One last thing to mention, of course, would be the nature of Brainy and Supergirl’s relationship, which we all know well. I see their attraction as immediate (as anyone remembering that story will attest), and obvious to all the other members at the time. I’m sure it was both amusing and reassuring to see Brainy like that for the other members (and Supergirl too, now that I think about it).
Let the discussion commence!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Good question on why in the LSH's relative timeline she'd join before Ka-El. In fact they made 2 attempts to recruit her.
I can see one reason for this and it is that Saturn Girl was taking an active role in shaping the team building process in the pre-adventure era. In fact I think Imra not Lu was responsible for the "super-girlfriends" mission.
Reasons 1 As a telepath she would be aware of theories of building a high performance team. This includes using psychological profiling to build an optimal team. [Having been in a school that used Jungian analysis (through the MBTI) to assign teams with diverse profiles, i'll tell you it actually works but with some infuriating consequences.] If you do that analysis on the original 10 legionnaires you'll probably see that the the second group of 5 complemented the personalities of the first 5.
There's evidence of this b/c the rules changed for Kara's second try out. One boy and one girl? Sounds like jerrymandering to me. And why was Kara the only female finalist sponsered by the 3 legion girls themselves. SATURN GIRL'S MANIPULATION.
2 Imra also wanted a female protege much like female managers today groom a junior female employee for leadership roles. Though Lu and Tinya had joined Imra must have thought Lu too soft and probably already felt she'd conflict with Tinya eventually.
I see evidence of a mentor-student relationship in a late adventure issue (375?) where Kara declines to challenge her fellow legionnaires (though she was by far the strongest girl legionnaire) for the right to fight a bad guy because Imra had already volunteered.
Imra's plan to get a protege failed ultimately. When Kara shows up in the supergirl robot story Saturn Girl literally screams "YOU!!!". This was more than surprise at seeing her. Imra was pissed off that her flakey, washed out protege had the nerve to come back. I guess they made up off panel in the story.
I kinda feel Imra did try this again years later with Sensor Girl with better results.
posted
I'm not sure I'm buying the "Saturn Girl wanted a protege" theory. It's an interesting idea, though. It would seem to me that Imra could go to the schools of Titan to find a student. She could have approached a Science Police Academy student. She could have started the Legion Academy sooner. The Legion was just getting started anyway, so there was a lot of growing and adapting to do, and lest we forget the dangers they faced. Imra would know Supergirl's whole life story. I don't think even Imra would be egotistical enough to believe that she needed to play a big part in the formation of Supergirl.
In the Lu and Tinya thread, I mentioned that I thought it was Lu's idea to lay out the whole "supergirlfriends" approach. However, I feel like it was a group decision or maybe even a committee decision to invite Supergirl. Lu just thought of the cute way it was done.
I have to admit that I've forgotten the order in which the Legionnaires joined. I'm foggy on the fact that Supergirl joined before Superboy. Was it always stated as so? What was the editorial retcon? Sorry....
Still, having Supergirl join would have been amazing for everyone. The girls would now have their physical powerhouse. Yes, Imra and Tinya were always quite assertive and capapble, but nothing like a girl of steel! Lu proved her worth often, but again, she had a specialty skill, less dynamic. Kara's fame and beauty didn't hurt, either. Now the Legion had an established hero(ine) on the roster. This must have concerned certain criminals and inspired others (Let's take 'er!). Since Kara was always so sweet and almost docile, I feel like everyone would have really liked her, except maybe Tinya. In my mind, Tinya would have thought that Kara should be tougher and more aggressive, take no guff ever! The boys would respect and admire Kara, but probably be intimidated by her power. None of them could take her in a fight (without green k).
Brainy would have fit in and found his niche immediately. He wasn't rude to anyone, but he was all about business. They'd let him go about it. I'm sure most of us know (or are) the "smart one." We often defer to that person, when in need. Perfect for the Legion, because when you're all about shooting lightning, weilding magnetism, altering your body in some way, or being physically super, it's nice when someone else can do the thinking.
What about Imra? Naturally, she'd find a collegue in Brainy. Great minds working together. I think Imra and Brainy became tight right away, strictly professional, and stayed that way forever, despite several incidents.
Lyle was mentioned above. Preboot, Lyle and Brainy didn't seem to have any major friendship, but probably a certain respect level based on science. Their reboot rivalry was very interesting, though. Their threeboot relationship is off to a good start, too. I don't recall saying much about Lyle in his thread. I'll have to re-examine that.
I LOVE that Brainy and Kara felt an attraction for each other right away! It was probably the first time anyone had ever told Querl he was handsome! Not only that, but she was an icon and beautiful and darling. Lucky Brainiac! I mean, he was her type... the atypical. She likes em green or with fish tails! Heh! How comforting for her that within this amazing group she could find someone to hold her hand and help her feel real. In her mind, it might have held her back a little, though. As stated above, maybe she didn't want to overwhelm Brainy, or the others.
posted
I think the first time the possibility of Supergirl joining before Superboy arose was as a result of a flashback in Adv. 323, showing Superboy's induction, with Brainiac 5 present. A reader wrote in, citing it as a mistake, since Superboy joined before Brainiac 5, who joined later with Supergirl. The editor replied that time travel was tricky and implied that it was possible Supergirl joined first. The issue has been hotly contested ever since.
Lyle and Brainy seemed pretty tight during the Kid's leadership in Adv. They seemed to work together pretty closely in Adv. 348, 350, 359-360, 362, and 368 as I recall and Brainy left Lyle his force field belt in his will in Adv. 378.
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From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
The ultimate basis for the Kara joining before Kal-El idea is the flashback to Superboy's induction in the "Eight Impossible Missions" story, which depicts Brainy as being present. This was later interpreted to mean that Brainy (and thus Supergirl) must have been a member when Superboy joined.
This is somewhat misleading, however. It is clearly stated in Adv. #247 that Superboy is to be given "honorary membership" in the super-hero club. So, while it may be true that Brainy and Kara join before Kal-el become a regular member of the team, it doesn't follow that they travelled back in time to meet Supergirl before they travelled back to meet Superboy. In fact, I believe the Legionnaires even reference Superboy's membership in Act. #267 (though all this is confused by their claim to be the children of the original Legionnaires).
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Here's Jo Sanning's discussion of the issue from his Silver Age Legion site:
The biggest error of the story occurs on the last page, panel 1, which is a flashback showing Superboy being sworn into the Legion. Because Brainiac 5 is shown as one of the members at Superboy's induction ceremony, future chroniclers of the Legion mistakenly assumed that Supergirl (who joined at the same time as Brainy) became a member BEFORE Superboy. This was an erroneous and unnecessary assumption on their part for two reasons:
Firstly, flashbacks are a notoriously inaccurate method of discerning past events. They are personal recollections and therefore subject to human error and "tricks of memory". Cosmic Boy recalling that Garth Ranzz was wearing his Lightning Boy costume before he gained his powers (as depicted in AD 308) is a prime example of this.
Secondly, Superboy was not originally shown being sworn in and his first status as a Legionnaire was in an honorary capacity (see AD 247). Saturn Girl could very easily been recalling the time when Superboy was sworn in as a FULL regular member, sometime later and AFTER Brainiac 5 and Supergirl had joined.
Further proof that this is in fact the case:
1) Saturn Girl's flashback shows the Legionnaires - specifically Cosmic Boy, Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad - wearing their more modern apparel and NOT the original costumes they wore at the time that Superboy was first approached (in AD 247).
2) New term elections are held on the same day every year (about the middle of the year). Superboy was not first approached for membership the day the Legion formed. For this third term year to mark the exact day of Superboy's "membership", the swearing-in ceremony must have taken place exactly one year ago, just before the election in AD 304, most likely when Superboy was made a full regular member of the team.
In the lettercol of Adventure Comics No. 326, reader Michael E. Colby of Long Island NY pointed out the error in the flashback and editor Mort Weisinger replied: "It's true that [Brainiac 5] joined with Supergirl. But are you sure that Superboy had actually been sworn in as a member by that time?"
posted
Hold the space phone. Didn't you skip Star Boy, Cobalt? Wasn't he the "someone else" who joined the Legion in Supergirl's place at her first tryout?
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From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Is the "Secrets of the LSH" mini the best resource on the Legion's (preboot, pre-Crisis, pre Glorith) origin? I mean as far as printed, canon material.
posted
These two might have had some distancing from the other members: Supergirl because she was not there full time, and Brainy because of his intellect and later the trouble he caused with Computo, exploding labs, etc. Who knows what other experiments went wrong off-panel? They were clearly part of the team, but perhaps they were closest to one another, together right from the beginning.
I think it's interesting that Brainy would go for a girl who wasn't there a lot - sort of got him off the hook in terms of serious committment. There was some speech imploring her to stay - but maybe he felt safe making it because he knew she wouldn't. Not that he didn't truly care for her, just on his own terms. At first. As the series progressed, he became more obsessed with her - the robot! - although she never showed any such obsession with him.
In the Thora story, it's Supergirl who breaks with the other girls and opposes Thora - not because any superpower, but because of her concern for what would happen to Brainiac under a Thora regime. Those two may have been portrayed as the closest Legion couple early on. That would have excluded the others to some degree.
I see Brainy as a divisive force in the Legion, which culminated in the Conspiracy arc. We didn't see this until that storyline, but surely there must have been arguments and sides taken for and against his schemes and experiments, especially when they went wrong. Saturn Girl may have understood him better than the others (as shown at the end of the Computo story), although he was shown socializing with other members. It may be that some were in awe of him at first and deferred to him, but as time went on, they began to question or oppose him. Perhaps his relationship with Supergirl even afforded him some status as the guy who got the legend - this could be good or bad, but I think it would be another thing to set him apart.
For some reason, I don't remember Supergirl being in a lot of the stories - certainly not to the degree that Superboy was. What was her status when Shadow Lass showed up and made the play for Brainy?
Getting comfortable with his own emotions; Aquiring the wisdom to not do things made possible by his intellect; Learning that the ends don't always justify the means.
The stories where Lu's bodies are lost bookend his development. His resignation after his trial, hugging Imra goodbye and visiting Lu a sign that he'd learned lessons he should have learned with Computo way back in Adventure. Yes Brainiac 5 was stupid.
I'd say he was closest to Imra, who also believed noble ends justify any means. There was nothing romantic but there was a little frown on B5's face at the end "Weddings that wrecked the Legion" when she 'engaged' to Garth. Things change when a friend's status changes and he was extremely attached to her at that point. I think they're depicted working together less often after that. He may have regretted his wedding plan a little.
And regarding Kara, he deserved better. Opposites attract in the passion of youth, but in middle age he would have favored an efficient relationship with a more like-minded partner. Can you tell I think Kara was a flake?
What was her status when Shadow Lass showed up and made the play for Brainy?
I was under the impression that Supergirl and Shadow Lass had only just met, yet Shadow Lass was familiar with Kara enough to ask "what's eating you"? during the sequence where Kara was thinking of Brainy and the ramifications of what could have happened if Thora and her Legionnaire thralls had gone through with the individual plans.
I would hazard a guess that Kara was miffed by Shady's unwittingly-insensitive comment anf that proved ro be the impetus to break Thora's mind-control.
From: Adelaide, Australia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Brainiac 5 is the Legion. It's hard to pick just one person as the major cog in this team but Brainy's it. And Waid seems to agree thankfully in the new series. Everybody has touched on it he's just brings so much to the series in personality, powers, and how it effects the legion as a whole and individuals. He affected the Legion tremendously. he quickly became their go to man.
Kara on the other hand? The biggest thing she affected is a female with an agressive power. Something the current Legion needs asap! She was the most powerful member. Imagine how the girls felt with this iconic powerhouse beauty.
From: Tampa | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: Hold the space phone. Didn't you skip Star Boy, Cobalt? Wasn't he the "someone else" who joined the Legion in Supergirl's place at her first tryout?
Jim, I'm going by the established tradition of Star Boy being the 13th member of the Legion. Superboy is next, then Ultra Boy, then Star Boy.
Granted, Star Boy's story was before most others, but I'm pretty sure this part of continuity has been ironed out over the years.
Oh, and *excellent* call on Superboy joining after. I knew that was the case, editorially retconned or not, but I've never had it explained to me before.
BTW, I'm going to go in the order of Legionnaires joining as it was established over the years, including the Levitz run and TMK run (pre-timeline change with Laurel and Kid Quantum), but by all means, correct me if you think I'm off.
All around interesting comments on this idea.
Now I'll get to everyone's comments on Brainy and Kara
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Wow, I'm glad these threads are bringing about such great insight!
Lyle and Brainy- good call Jim on the various times the two were shown working together. It appears that by the time Shooter began working on the Legion, this friendship was being forged. During the Levitz run, Brainy makes a few comments about Lyle showing that he really misses him--a very un-Brainy-like moment for that time period, which shows just how strong those feelings were. I see Lyle as patient and understanding with Brainy, and being someone who actually enjoys Brainy's 'directness' and 'to the point' personna. It's up to us to guess when exactly this friendship became so strong, but by the time the LSH left Adventure and had a few 'missing years' (after all, there were like three leaders in twenty issues, meaning we missed a good deal of time), the two were close.
Tamper, not sure if I'd agree with the Imra-protege theory, but an interesting line of thinking. It also goes to show how strong a character Imra was to make you think that.
Dean, Kara like the 'atypical' males is both funny, but so true! Kara and Brainy showed much more affection than any other Legionnaire couple--maybe their mutual outsider status helped them to not care about feeling embarrassed in front of the others (as teens are apt to do)? FC brings up a very interesting side of it too that I never considered: Kara of course can't stay all the time, ultimately giving Brainy a potential g/f without a major source of committment--which allows him to indulge his feelings, without making him compromise his outsider/loner nature.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: (after all, there were like three leaders in twenty issues, meaning we missed a good deal of time),
The writers were experimenting with monthly leadership terms at that time. In the Matter Eater Lad story (Sup. 184?) Imra or ME Lad says that Ultra Boy's term started only a few days ago, but in the story where Cham tries to kill Superboy (Sup. 188?) Brainy says he's the leader "this month." Then by Sup. 190, Mon-El was leader again, having been elected in Act. 392, so I guess they'd abandoned the idea by then. Why Ultra Boy was later said to have been leader twice, but not Brainy or Mon-El makes no sense to me.
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