posted
A quick word -- So…as the history of the LSH progressed, members kept being introduced, especially in the early years. If you think about it though, the introduction of each new member must have had social consequences for the group as a whole—especially as seen in relation to other events occurring at that time both in terms of Legionnaire-related things (re: Death of Lightning Lad) or social things (re: Jo and Tinya start going out). Having historical hindsight is also beneficial, as we know later how things turned out and can make some connections that might not be self-evident early on. Of course, what the writer intended when he wrote something could by and large be entirely inconsequential. Who cares if they meant for Luornu and Tinya to be good friends and maybe Vi feel a little left out? It sure might seem like that with 40 years of retrospect and character development!
Superboy
I was wondering if it was even necessary to do a Superboy one of these, since it almost goes without saying at how much he influenced every single aspect of Legion life, most definitely including the social aspects. But I’ll get into it anyway, or at least a quick overview. I do think he influenced every Legionnaire he served with though, but I guess we’ll get to those relationships when we get to those threads where those Legionnaires joined (I’m thinking the Tinya/Jo relationship in relation to Luornu’s crush on Superboy, etc.).
I think Superboy’s joining the team was a culmination of the earliest days of the Legion, and nothing could have pleased the founders and early team members more. I think Superboy got along great with everyone almost right away, and his natural charisma and non-exclusive complimentary attitude of others helped forge this. I think the founders would have gotten along great with them, and I can even see Superboy feeling a bit in awe of them at first, despite them feeling the exact same thing in him.
Luornu’s crush on Clark is something I can see early sparks of and then building into a roaring flame, as she fell more and more in love with the idea of her and him together. Later, this crush would become more burning, once Luornu’s close friend Tinya starting dating Jo, whose powers were similar to Superboy’s, and who I believe would have been good friends with Clark and Mon all along (I see Mon always being Jo’s best male friend, but we’ll get to that in his thread). This goes along with antoher line of thinking I’ve had since we started these, that the Mordru story where Tasmia and Lar start falling for one another as Luornu realizes her crush on Superboy will never amount to anything at the same time incidentally coincides with the shift in Lu and Tinya’s friendship to the Tinya/Tasmia friendship (from a variety of reasons).
I see Superboy always being one of Brainy’s best friends. In fact, I see Brainy as one of those that Clark was closest too in the Legion, and I’ve always enjoyed this friendship. Of course, Kara and Clark’s friendship is obvious, even though the time dramatics of it are slightly strange.
All in all though, I see Clark as friends with everyone: Tinya, Gim, Cham, Lyle and all the rest—and it would stay that way throughout his membership. Even Wildfire, who didn’t join until much farther along always seemed to have a unique relationship with Superboy.
The Greatest Hero of them all indeed!
Thoughts?
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I've always thought that Superboy joining the Legion would be like George Washington time-traveling to join the present-day U.S. Army, or Elvis Presley joining a modern rock 'n' roll band. The Legionnaires were in awe of Superboy, period.
How much of that awe translated into real friendship is left to our imaginations. As you indicated, Cobie, Superboy was polite and friendly with everyone. But real friendship means allowing for the other person's weaknesses, and, occasionally, getting on each others' nerves. One of the few times this happened, where red kryptonite or some ruse wasn't involved, was in ADVENTURE # 341, when Superboy scolded Matter-Eater Lad after the latter scolded Brainy for inventing Computo. But M.E. Lad demurred immediately. (I wonder what would happen if President Washington scolded a certain other George W. -- but I digress.)
Still, I have no problem with your interpretations. They make a lot of sense, particularly your speculation of a Superboy-Brainy friendship (which puts ADV. # 341 in a slightly different light). But I do think that Superboy's closest Legion friend was Mon-El, who, after all, was his "big brother," in more ways that one.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I always wanted to see more of the Ultra Boy/Superboy friendship. They sped through space together so often, you'd think they'd be 'fast' (sorry) friends.
Jo's one of the Legionnaires that made repeat visits to Smallville, dating from his first appearance. Yet, I don't really have a feeling for what their relationship might've been like.
I'd like to have seen a storyline featuring only Legionnaires that debuted in Superboy stories before they were Legionnaires. Mon-el, UB, Star Boy-- anybody else? Supergirl, of course.
I always thought Supes should've been really proud of Star Boy-- as Thom 'soldiered on' with his 'mere' gravity powers after losing abilities almost identical to Kal-el's own. That might be a motivation behind Superboy's impassioned defense of SB when he was kicked off the team (one of my favorite Superboy/LSH moments). At the same time, Kal-el'd never think of Thom's grav powers as 'mere', though. At least not deep down. The fact that he respected the 'weaker' Legionnaires, while simultaneously wanting to protect them is a big part of his character.
I feel Superboy always had a *huge* respect for Saturn Girl. I think she was probably his closest friend among the Legion gals.
Another should-have-been relationship that never quite appeared centered around the parallel of Krypton and Trom. Last of sons of planets-- I can imagine Superboy and Element Lad commiserating on the anniversary of one or the other planets' destruction... no dialogue needed.
Cham's status as 'alien' among the humans might've struck a chord with Kal-el-- especially later in his career.
Another thing I wish we'd seen more of was how Superboy took inspiration from the Legionnaires in his later life-- I always took that to be a sort of unspoken background to the formation of the Justice League, or at least to SuperMAN's participation in it.
From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
HWW- I definitely agree that Mon was Superboy’s best friend in the Legion, his ‘big brother’. Mon’s very existence was just so cool in that it gave Clark that outlet as a teenager, in having something similar to a family member from Krypton (or Daxam, as fate would have it).
Todd- I wish we saw more b/t Jo and Clark too. I can almost see them as two ‘popular’ kids for different reasons that had a very strong mutual respect and like for each other. Jo’s budding friendship with Mon (which I see as something always there, given both of their pseudo-loner natures) would have maybe helped push more of a friendship b/t the two.
I really like your thoughts on Superboy being proud of Thom after losing his mightier powers (and partly why he was so passionate about his defense). Like Lash said in an earlier thread, it always made me smile when I thought about how the superman-ish powered Legionnaires defended Thom by saying the lesser powered Legionnaires have more at risk by not being invulnerable. I wonder if Superboy’s evident ‘being proud of Thom’ was something that could have spread to Mon and Jo? reiterate of course that this is all speculation, which is why I find it so fun
Agree totally on Imra/Clark. Massive respect and most likely his closet friend of the girls (adding more to the mystique of ‘Iron Butt Imra the Ice Queen’, by being friends with Superboy, who seemed so distant and awe-inspiring, and Brainy, the ultimate loner?).
Your thoughts on Trom also make me consider the ‘orphan’ story where all the Legionnaires with no parents work together. I can see that as much more of a bonding experience than the issue let on, especially afterwards in the scenes we didn’t see. To know that someone like Superboy shared the same hurt might make him more human and approachable to them.
Love your thoughts on Superman and the JLA, which I never really considered before. Now I will always look at it that way
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
When reading the Superboy stuff, I'm really struck by how different the silver age Ka-El is from the Byrne version. Though they kinda mitigated it in the 70s and 80s that never changed.
Superboy was never really human was he? As much as he respected the Kents and was friends with Pete, Lana and the rest, he could never truly be himself. I think Peter David really nailed it when pre-crisis Superman told the angel Supergirl that he was lonely in Many Happy Returns.
So the Legion was a place where he could be and have friends as himself. Sort of like science camp for nerds. Because of this he was much more approachable to the legionnaires than they might have believed because of his legendary status. Ka El would have had something in common with each of the legionnaires.
His respect for Saturn Girl and B5 must have been enhanced because they were the two that managed to cure Lar, something he tried in vain to do his entire life. The guilt of what he did to Lar must have eaten away at Superboy/man which would have been his frame of reference to his relationship with Mon-El as Superboy.
Ka-El was universally loved by the team and they no doubt greatly influenced his development into an adult. I wonder if his involvement with the Legion was just as important in lending them credibility with the authorities early on.
From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
One relationship that I'd like to see explored is the one between Supergirl and Superboy. If Supergirl really was a member first, how did Superboy react when first seeing her? How did the Legion introduce them? How did Supergirl react to Superboy's induction? Was she jealous? His joining meant she was no longer the most powerful team member. She may have thought of the Legion as her special place, away from Superman's protective and ever watchful eye. IIRC, Supergirl's presence had not been revealed to the 20th century world when she joined the LSH. Being part of a galactically famous group would have been exhilirating to a young girl living her life in secret. She would've known from Superman that Superboy would end up joining sooner or later, but would she welcome it or dread it? Or a little of both? How would her place with her super girlfriends change with them fawning over her more famous cousin?
The relationship between Superboy and Mon-El also intrigues me. Superman felt guilty his entire life that it was he who imprisoned Mon-El in the Phantom Zone, after he had poisoned him with lead, and struggled for years to find a cure. Yet Mon-El came back to visit him in Smallville more than once when he was Superboy. The 20th century Mon-El would still be in the Phantom Zone watching himself spend time with Superboy. Did the Mon from the 30th century ever think about his stranded self? Did Superboy think about him? Did he forget Mon's visits after he left because of Supergirl's post hypnotic suggestion? What about the other people who met Mon-El? Pete, Lana, the Kents, etc.? Did the Kents get hypnotized too? Or did they have to keep secrets from Superboy about Mon-El's fate and visits?
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From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Suggest a re-read of SUPERBOY #204 ("Who was Anti-Lad?") which is set during this period of time. In it the Legion does seem disappointed, but hardly heart-broken that Superboy does not become a Legionnaire.
-------------------- "I am the LEGION--you colossal Jerk!"--Garth Ranzz LEGION #63
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Aside from the huge impact of Superboy being introduced into the Legion, it may actually pale compared to the enormous 20-year impact of Byrne et. all's un-introducing him to the Legion (or it may not...I'll have to think about it more).
Certainly, the rest of the pre-boot stuff spent a LOT of time trying to fill the Superboy-sized vaccuum left by his absence. It seems like they constantly had to stuggle to stay ahead of the domino effect caused by his not having been real (and eventually, not even being fake, to simply not being), altering previous stories, drastically alrering characters such as Mon-El, etc....
When Superboy became Pocket Universe fake Superboy, it still kind of worked...but outside editors just kept taking it further.
As far as social consequences of his induction into the Legion, I agree with others that there was definite hero worship involved. But I think they got over it and began thinking of him as an equal fairly quickly, because there was little hesitation to kick him and Supergirl back out of the Legion in that Adventure-era story where Kryptonite dust rings 30th century Earth. And I seem to remember them kicking Supergirl out at least once before that (due to red K aging her older than the official Legion cut off age...? Been a while...).
edit:
quote:Originally posted by Korbal: Suggest a re-read of SUPERBOY #204 ("Who was Anti-Lad?") which is set during this period of time. In it the Legion does seem disappointed, but hardly heart-broken that Superboy does not become a Legionnaire.
Haha, I just reread that story at your recommendation (thanks, Archives!), and Anti-Lad's dad sums it up perfectly:
"We must do something, son! We cannot leave things as they are... with history never recognizing Superboy as a Legionnaire! He's destined to play such a vital role with them that the entire course of history will be thrown out of control without him!"
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: One relationship that I'd like to see explored is the one between Supergirl and Superboy. [...] How would her place with her super girlfriends change with them fawning over her more famous cousin?
Very interesting questions, Jim. Perhaps this is why the Legion saw so little of Supergirl.
quote:The relationship between Superboy and Mon-El also intrigues me. [...]
Ah, this is a conundrum! One can only hope that seeing himself from the future gave Mon hope as he watched from the Phantom Zone.
Kal must have engaged in some selective amnesia. Otherwise, why bother searching for a cure for Mon, when he knew he'd ultimately fail?
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by SouthtownKid: And I seem to remember them kicking Supergirl out at least once before that (due to red K aging her older than the official Legion cut off age...? Been a while...).
Just to clarify: Supergirl wasn't kicked out. She was denied membership on her first application following the red K incident(ACTION # 267). She made the team on her second tryout (ACTION # 276).
You're right about the Legion not spending much time processing Superboy and Supergirl out in ADVENTURE # 350. They were all business in those days. But the team did give them a solemn farewell ceremony, complete with souvenirs they couldn't keep (whassat?).
[ July 28, 2005, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Just to clarify: Supergirl wasn't kicked out. She was denied membership on her first application following the red K incident(ACTION # 267). She made the team on her second tryout (ACTION # 276).
You're right about the Legion not spending much time processing Superboy and Supergirl out in ADVENTURE # 350. They were all business in those days. But the team did give them a solemn farewell ceremony, complete with souvenirs they couldn't keep (whassat?).
I must have been combining in my memory with when Sun Boy's powers went on the fritz. "No powers? Don't let the door bump you on the way out!" They even sent Bouncing Boy to Sun Boy's house to repo his mission monitor.
When I first read the reprints of those Adventure stories as a kid, I felt like more than worrying about whatever foes they were facing that month, Legionnaires had to live in fear of their fellow members pouncing on any little mistake, and booting them out of the club.
Registered: Jul 2005
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Eryk Davis Ester
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posted
Yeah, back in the early days Legionnaires seemed to spend more time bickering, quitting, and booting one another out than they spent fighting super-villains.
I'm sure glad that's changed...
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Yeah, back in the early days Legionnaires seemed to spend more time bickering, quitting, and booting one another out than they spent fighting super-villains.
...and don't forget stranding them to die out in the middle of outer space in a rocket lifeboat with no food or water, or enough fuel to get to a habitable planet. Wacky Legionnaires...
But actually, those early Adventure stories, especially the John Forte drawn ones, are among my all time favorites, ranking right up there with Levitz's second/Giffen's first run.
(My apologies to Cobalt Kid for dragging the thread off-topic. Sorry...)
Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Still, I have no problem with your interpretations. They make a lot of sense, particularly your speculation of a Superboy-Brainy friendship (which puts ADV. # 341 in a slightly different light). But I do think that Superboy's closest Legion friend was Mon-El, who, after all, was his "big brother," in more ways that one.
I agree about Mon-El and Superboy being real friends rather than just about anyone else. Still, the Legion conspiracy certainy shows that a few other Legionnaires felt they were very close to Superboy.
I think that the other time traveling Legionnaire - Supergirl - was much better with interacting with her teammates on a social level. She made friends and flirted with at least one other member. Maybe she would be a better fit for the Legion (if any 21st C member of the Superman Family had to join) than Superboy. Even Kon-El was largely annoying to the other Legionnaires and I doubt things would be any different with the Threeboot team.
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Ah, this is a conundrum! One can only hope that seeing himself from the future gave Mon hope as he watched from the Phantom Zone.
Kal must have engaged in some selective amnesia. Otherwise, why bother searching for a cure for Mon, when he knew he'd ultimately fail?
Why didn't the Legion just go back in time to release Mon-El from the Zone? They could have saved him from 1,000 years of misery with one little trip in the time bubble. I know all that crap about not changing history, but they changed history every time they went into the past.
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From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
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