I'm not sure I get your point. There are enough posts -- Frances' saying he and Shooter moved on and adding that he doesn't know who wrote the book and Klordny's saying Shooter disclaimed authorship -- to support that this was not Shooter's work. So Shooter did not write the book.
Are you arguing Shooter should be blamed for leaving the book (assuming he left instead of being fired)? I don't know why he should. Just because comics are a business does not mean that writers have to abandon their vision for their work. It's always a tension in the medium, but if Shooter did not want to be the one to bastardize what he had been developing with the Threeboot because TPTB decided late in the game that they want a different result, Shooter is under no obligation comply. He is not a slave. He can walk away and forfeit some of the money he would receive from DC, but for some people, that is a better outcome than compromising one's artistic vision due to corporate pressure.
As for blaming Didio, he's the head of DC. The buck stops with him. All of the problems with the Legion in what was supposed to be the big 50th Anniversary Celebration ultimately fall at his feet.
Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by reckless: Are you arguing Shooter should be blamed for leaving the book (assuming he left instead of being fired)? I don't know why he should. Just because comics are a business does not mean that writers have to abandon their vision for their work. It's always a tension in the medium, but if Shooter did not want to be the one to bastardize what he had been developing with the Threeboot because TPTB decided late in the game that they want a different result, Shooter is under no obligation comply. He is not a slave. He can walk away and forfeit some of the money he would receive from DC, but for some people, that is a better outcome than compromising one's artistic vision due to corporate pressure.
I think the "corporation" vs. "artist" dichotomy, though often cited, belies some important factors of comic-book publishing. Here are some factors that I quickly came up with as guidance to potential comic-book writers.
If the writer doesn't realize that stories must occasionally accommodate editorial decisions (or "corporate pressure" if you want to evoke more individualistic nobility), then he or she should probably self-publish.
If the writer doesn't realize that his or her work is immediately incorporated into a "franchise"--that it becomes part of something greater than just the writer's submission, then the writer should insist on writing original, insulated characters/teams.
If the writer doesn't care enough about the fans of the book to strive for a conclusion to stories in which those fans have invested, then maybe he or she should add to the stories a disclaimer to that effect.
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Jul 2003
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I agree with some of those points, but I think there are different rules for different writers. Guys like Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison are pretty much given carte-blanche to do what they want to when they take over a book. We don't know what assurances Shooter was given when he came back to LSH. Remember what a big deal it was? How DC was trumpeting the return of Shooter to the Legion? DC had a dying book and needed to do something to revive it. To have Shooter come back, they had to have promised him a lot of freedom to write *his* story and, from all reports, he gave them a pretty good outline of what he intended to do. So they knew his plans from the outset and he knew they were approved.
Given those circumstances, the "artist" side deserves some respect. It looks like DC's plans then changed because they liked the response to the Lightning Saga. They then decided to give Johns Lo3W, and the writing was on the wall for the Threeboot. Then, the TPTB cancel the book and cut Shooter's planned story by several issues. Even then, Shooter appeared willing to accept those business/editorial decisions. But -- and I have no confirmation on that -- TPTB then forced changes in how Shooter planned to resolve his by-then nearly completed arc. (I suspect this was necessary because Shooter's ending would have created a continuity nightmare for Lo3W. You can't add Sun Boy during Shooter's last few issues and kill a Legionnaire in the last issue, yet have them both appear in Lo3W.) At that stage, I don't fault Shooter for throwing up his hands and saying, "This is not my vision for these characters, and I am not going to be blamed for this lame ending."
Registered: Oct 2003
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Ummm, Very Very, I did talk about Marts, up above. You probably missed it, but we did talk about him, about an interview I saw with Chuck Austen, and about how the same psuedonmym(sp?) was used by Marts at some point.
Not trying to be snippy with you. But, honestly, after #50, its just way to many straws for that poor old camel as far as i am concerned.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
Here are some factors that I quickly came up with as guidance to potential comic-book writers.
If the writer doesn't realize that stories must occasionally accommodate editorial decisions (or "corporate pressure" if you want to evoke more individualistic nobility), then he or she should probably self-publish.
If the writer doesn't realize that his or her work is immediately incorporated into a "franchise"--
If the writer doesn't care enough about the fans of the book to strive for a conclusion
Did you consider when writing your guidelines that in this instance, by shortening the run three issues AFTER THE STORY HAD BEEN WRITTEN (<== not yelling, emphasizing. ) ... they put their artist in a lose-lose position?
..are you really being fair here?
From: East Toledo | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I think what would solve a lot of the animosity towards Mr. Didio would have been an explanation or a warning of what was to come re: The Ending.
At the very least the solicitation on DC's website should have changed to suit the actual material or removed completely.
We had no idea what was going to be dropped in our laps.
I didn't really like the three boot much. It had it's moments here and there, but overall most longtime fans know it's a failure. Still, I would like the real ending to have been presented. It just was not fair to the fans.
Thanks to the shoddy treatment afforded this long time fan, I will be drastically reducing the number of DC Comics I will purchase. It's the only protest available that might get noticed, but I doubt it.
From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by reckless: Remember what a big deal it was? How DC was trumpeting the return of Shooter to the Legion? DC had a dying book and needed to do something to revive it. ...
I remember that it was news. But, part of the reason it was news was that it was unusual that Mr. Shooter was working for either of the two major publishers again. He had something of a reputation, it seemed.
As you said in your post, neither you nor I have details on what happened when between DC editorial and Mr. Shooter. So, if you would like to weight artist-hood whereas I find hints of diva-hood, then it's good we can at least make each other aware of our perspectives.
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by reckless: Remember what a big deal it was? How DC was trumpeting the return of Shooter to the Legion? DC had a dying book and needed to do something to revive it. ...
I remember that it was news. But, part of the reason it was news was that it was unusual that Mr. Shooter was working for either of the two major publishers again. He had something of a reputation, it seemed.
As you said in your post, neither you nor I have details on what happened when between DC editorial and Mr. Shooter. So, if you would like to weight artist-hood whereas I find hints of diva-hood, then it's good we can at least make each other aware of our perspectives.
I never said diva-hood was not present. But there are a lot of creative divas who work in industries that exercise some form of control and the system generally functions pretty well. (I know a lot of actors and Hollywood types, and divas are the norm. However, that is why contracts set out who has creative control and detail how the process of approval will work. Some actors and directors will not sign onto a project if they do not have final approval.) DC knew what it was getting with Shooter, and I'm sure both entered the contract for Shooter to do LSH with some trepidation, but that is also why I feel pretty confident that they outlined how the arrangement would work *before* Shooter took the book. Given the state of the book before Shooter came in, DC needed Shooter more than he needed the Legion. So I can't imagine that DC would have brought Shooter into the fold without a lot of assurances that he had creative control once the basic plot was approved. The fact that Shooter had his stories written so early (and possibly outlined before he started his gig) is a pretty strong sign that he got the greenlight from DC to write the story that he planned.
I don't think any of us really need to be insiders to have some sense of what happened: DC's plans for the Threeboot changed and they tightened the reins on Shooter. Shooter could not even end the Threeboot on his own terms, because a particular Threeboot Legion was needed for the more favored Lo3W.
You may call it diva-hood, but consider it from Shooter's perspective. His name will always be on these books and if Shooter had finished the run with a lame resolution forced on him by TPTB, it would have further tarnished his reputation. I cannot fault him for not wanting his name associated with a story that he knew was going to be awful. Better to walk away and make sure everyone understands that this lame ending was not his story.
Registered: Oct 2003
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Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
isn't it time to kill this thread and move on?
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by reckless: Given the state of the book before Shooter came in, DC needed Shooter more than he needed the Legion.
I disagree.
quote:Originally posted by reckless: I don't think any of us really need to be insiders to have some sense of what happened: DC's plans for the Threeboot changed and they tightened the reins on Shooter.
I agree
quote:Originally posted by reckless: You may call it diva-hood, but consider it from Shooter's perspective.
No, I'm going to stick with considering from my perspective.
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by the Maritimer: Thanks to the shoddy treatment afforded this long time fan, I will be drastically reducing the number of DC Comics I will purchase. It's the only protest available that might get noticed, but I doubt it.
No, it is not. It won't help at all. Here's what will help:
Reduce the number of DC comics you purchase, just like you said you were going to do, and write a letter to them telling them what you're doing and why. A paper letter, concise and civil.
Seriously, I can't recommend letter-writing enough. I believe that it gets attention. And it's a lot more articulate a way of protesting than simply not buying stuff.
posted
Do you think a letter from good old Germany would get any more attention? After the editorial and narrative disaster that was Final Crisis, and the infamy that was #50, I really do feel like telling someone inside DC my mind...
And I do plan to further cut down my DC expenses. Canceled my subscriptions to JLA and Booster Gold recently. Going to cancel Titans this month. My plan is to keep nothing outside of JSA and Green Lantern, and carefully checking out what new Legion project might be on the horizon...
By the way, I also cut down my Marvel monthlies to two due to the insolent price raise recently. I believe that both of the Big Two are in sever trouble right now...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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) ... they put their artist in a lose-lose position?
