Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
quote:Originally posted by Omni Craig:
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: But since the multiverse is back and there are other versions of many other DC characters, I don't see why there needs to be one "iconic" version of the Legion anyway. Just pick one and feature it. The other versions could show up occasionally as guest stars, like when the JSA and JLA team up periodically.
Oh and Jim, you get my vote to replace DiDio at DC. This more than makes sense. I guess it can't possibly happen since it follows such a beatifully simplistic logic. Sigh...
Personally, I'm still waiting for someone to come up with an even remotely plausible explanation as to why they can't just say "Here's an Earth that's basically just like pre-Crisis Earth-1, and there's its Legion" and we could have the original Legion back without all these convolutions of trying to mesh it to fit whatever the heck current DC continuity is supposed to be.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
That's my ultimate preferred solution to the entire mess. Earth-1 Superboy/man and Earth-1 Supergirl and their Legion. Tell their stories and leave the convoluted mess that is DCU continuity to the 21st Century.
Heck, you can say Kara died in the Crisis and Superman's story ended with "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" from SUPERMAN Vol. 1 #423 and ACTION COMICS #583 (both September 1986) which leaves him powerless as Jordan Elliot, so that you don't have to have them guest star and "confuse" readers.
[ February 17, 2009, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Omni Craig: I agree with you both. The death of Phoenix had tremendous meaning, as did the death of Barry Allen. I loved both of these characters dearly, but they had purpose and were well done.
...
Death should not be a revolving door in comic books. It takes no talent to bring the character back from the dead. Does anyone here believe Bruce Wayne is gone for good? Steve Rogers? Anyone? I didn't think so.
The problem's only got worse in the last few years. Bucky and Jason Todd - the two characters fans were actually convinced would stay dead - didn't.
I wasn't around then, but I know that even by the late 70s, there had been enough resurrections that fans were suspicious. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Dark Phoenix story manage to convince many fans that stories could now have permanent effects? Whether or not it really deserved that, Marvel should've realized that, if it convinced the fans, they could take the opportunity and keep Jean dead, and convince people that comics were still "real".
Batman? I know the DC Universe needs him alive. The Final Crisis death I want to see made permanent - and one that definitely won't be - is Darkseid. He's a worn-out villain. Many fans appear to have taken him seriously again in Final Crisis. More power to them - and DC should take the opportunity to let him go out at a high point. But he's the premier villain of the DC Universe, so I know they'll bring him back. Even killing someone http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeaderThanDead has no meaning anymore.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Personally, I'm still waiting for someone to come up with an even remotely plausible explanation as to why they can't just say "Here's an Earth that's basically just like pre-Crisis Earth-1, and there's its Legion" and we could have the original Legion back without all these convolutions of trying to mesh it to fit whatever the heck current DC continuity is supposed to be.
Ooh ooh ! [raises hand] I know this one ! It's because you can't move product without endless elaborate multi-issue/multi-series revamps-- each of which promises to be The Resolution That Ends All Resolutions, but never is.
What do I win ?
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
quote:Originally posted by cleome: What do I win ?
What that answer deserves:
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Triplicate Kid: [QUOTE]...
Death should not be a revolving door in comic books.
I wasn't around then, but I know that even by the late 70s, there had been enough resurrections that fans were suspicious. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Dark Phoenix story manage to convince many fans that stories could now have permanent effects?
Whether or not it really deserved that, Marvel should've realized that, if it convinced the fans, they could take the opportunity and keep Jean dead, and convince people that comics were still "real".
I agree, but Death HAS become insignificant in comics and that's just the way it is, I guess.
We didn't have the home computer, I didn't anyway, during that saga, but I remember how astonished I was that Jean was killed, at all.
Jean's death was more of a floodgate than a stopper where people dying and staying dead was concerned, if I remember right. Soon after that story, most of the X-Men were killed in the future. It was another very powerful story, too.
Then, the team was mostly killed in Magic's Hell dimension. sigh
Death seemed to get more and more unreal while becoming more and more frequent and sensationalized.
I have no idea how many times the X-Men have been killed now.
I won't even mention Supes death.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Glen Cadigan: . . . so I stand by some of my comments moreso than I do of others.
Any plans on sharing which you're standing by and which you're not?
Let me guess. People weren't quite so 'professional' as you thought?
No, I was right about that. It had nothing to do with one person not liking another person's take on a given series. Again, pros don't get worked up about that stuff - fans do. The conflict was always about publishing concerns, not story content.
I was wrong about who it was that was butting heads, as some of my information was out of date. I have since been updated by the horse's mouth, so my first post was right - up to a point. Then things changed, and it affected the outcome of the series.
Okay, if you say so, and I mean that sincerely.
So, when Shooter made Byrne and Claremont redo the last pages of the Phoenix Saga, it was for publishing reasons rather than story content.
And, when Levitz ran from his office when he read that Lyle was going to be 'outted' in a story, which was hastily, and obviously changed, it was a publishing issue.
And, when Phil Jimenez (I hope that's close to the right name) was telling us that he was going to have Wonder Woman sleep with his newly created boyfriend for her, and then it didn't happen ~ they were shown talking all night on his mother's couch, it was a publishing issue.
I can see your point of view, but as a fan, I can see where I'd perceive these situations as being about story content and editorial decisions.
I've been an editor and a reporter and content seemed to be an issue. As did the 'unprofessional' person or reaction. sigh
Thanks for taking the time to share your insider knowledge and experience! It's probably helped a lot of us to change perspective.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: That's my ultimate preferred solution to the entire mess. Earth-1 Superboy/man and Earth-1 Supergirl and their Legion. Tell their stories and leave the convoluted mess that is DCU continuity to the 21st Century.
Heck, you can say Kara died in the Crisis and Superman's story ended with "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" from SUPERMAN Vol. 1 #423 and ACTION COMICS #583 (both September 1986) which leaves him powerless as Jordan Elliot, so that you don't have to have them guest star and "confuse" readers.
The best solution(and it still might work) is to make the original Legion a product of alternate pasts.
Two time lines converging in their era...one that Superboy, Supergirl, the Superpets, Mon-El, and the Time Trapper himself came from...and the Post Crisis Time line...with the Legion always having existed beyond the convergence point.
What caused the time line to converge? Well Superboy and the Legion kept the crisis from overwriting his era...even if it was only for a split second. That's why the altenrate past existed in the first place. Perhaps their joining had always been a back up plan by the Monitor to stop the Anti-Monitor from destroying reality...so much power concentrated in such an inconspicuous little time era like Superboy's time. I mean every piece of space junk, every alien, every time traveler, every omnipowerful artifact, alien, terran or otherwise crashed in or found it's way to 1950's Rockwellian Smallville. Coincidence? Or the Monitor directing all that stuff there to create a hidden armory, a hiddent stock pile of power, a hidden obsure mini-heroic era, in which the most powerful team and the most powerful hero interacted frequently. Why do that? Because the Anti-Monitor would likely be focused on greater eras of heroic activity...that 1950's-ish era would likely escape his direct attention.
What created the convergence point between that time line and the Legion's time?
The Time Trapper himself. He was the first to break through the alternate time line right at the beginning of the Legion's era.
Had he remained in that seconed time line he would never been anything more than a typical time villain. However once beyond the convergence point, in the Legion's time that also occupied the Post Crisis reality, he became powerful enough to take over all time and space.
Except...for those other pesky little anamolies that crossed over. Superboy, Supergirl, Mon-El...them crossing over and combining with the Legion, the most powerful heroes, with the most powerful team, were the one thing powerful enough to stop him.
So intead of the stupid PU story where he was manipulating the Legion like fools, he had always been trying to limit the interaction between the Superfamily and the Legion. He'd been trying to keep them apart, until he could figure out a way to destroy them or close off that convergence point.
So that's why Superboy and Supergirl could always travel to the Legion's time, they were actually coming into the Post Crisis Time line when they did it, and they could only do it in the Legion's era, and the Legion always went back to that alternate time line when they traveled back, because of the Time Trapper's existence in their time...a sort of chronal gravity if you wish. He was so powerful and weilded so much influence in their era that all attempts at trime travel into the past from the Legion's era graviated towards the secondary alternate time line that he came from, instead of the Post Crisis Time line.
And the Trapper himself was completely cluess to what was causing it, never realizing he was the cause.
I would have made it so the Trapper himself was the reason the convergence point could never be closed off...he had to die or go back entirely into that alternate line for it to close.
So I would have made that last battle with the Time Trapper where they forced him back into that alternate timeline, or killed him and closed it off, with Superboy electing to go back to his own time.
Mon-El would have been the only remaining anamoly from that timeline and since he got to the future the hard way, he wouldn't prevent the convergence point from from being closed. And he'd elect to stay because that's where his life and love was now. And with the Time Trapper gone, all future travels into the past would go back to the Post Crisis past.
Every single Pre-and Post Crisis continuity story could have fit had they done it this way, including the ones with the Pre-Crisis Superman both in his time and the Legion's. And it also would have explained why there wouldn't be any more converging...because from the date in time in the Legion's era when the Trapper was defeated, and the convergence point closed, there would be no new crossing over...although any past stories could still have happened(like the adult Legion story) even if they were beyond that time.
But basically, it was the Time Trapper himself that made all those teams and stories possible, and it was also what defeated him. But once he was gone...so was the convergence of that alternate past in the Legion's time.
And DC knew they could do this too, because the only letter I ever wrote to a comic book company in my life detailed that plan, and I sent it to Julius Shcwartz before the PU story was even written. I mistakenly thought he would have the most pull and I figured Levtiz to be part of the problem by then or at least unable to do anything about it. I didn't realize they were phasing Julie out.
But anyway, DC didn't want that, because it would have left a de-facto Earth 1 still intact, even if only for Legion fans and I guess they thought all of comicdom read the Legion and would be confused or something.
So instead they killed Superboy and later that Earth which made the Legion's continuity an impossible fix.
Instead they chose a stupid ignorant solution that made no sense to anyone with a brain...and were left wishing they had problems like even the chance of everyone in comicdom reading the Legion to be confused in the first place.
DC knew they were going to destoy the Legion's continuity, and at least one person sent them a fix, and they still chose to ruin it thinking the fans would get over it and forget. I don't think they did it entirely for creative reasons either.
[ February 17, 2009, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
One thing I give DC some credit for with the threeboot:
Issue #1 came out in December of 2004. Issue #50 came out exactly forty-nine months later. Even with all the jiggery pokery going on with the creative teams and is-it-Shooter-or-not and continuity and 52 and what have you, they never missed a month.
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: One thing I give DC some credit for with the threeboot:
Issue #1 came out in December of 2004. Issue #50 came out exactly forty-nine months later. Even with all the jiggery pokery going on with the creative teams and is-it-Shooter-or-not and continuity and 52 and what have you, they never missed a month.
Which is great if you consider that during 49 months the book had consistency. To make that lousy job on the last issue just to keep it on time is just botched and plain stupid. Otherwise, Legion of 3 Worlds should be on time too, and they should bring a host of fill-in artists/writers to keep it on schedule.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
quote:Originally posted by cleome: What do I win ?
What that answer deserves:
Yeah, yeah. But you'll be praising my genius to the skies after I'm dead. Just you wait.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:...with the original plan, Jeckie fans would have been up in arms, and would have felt betrayed.
I know, as an Element Lad fan, I wish someone had stepped in at the end of "Legion Lost" and changed the Progenitor storyline ... even if doing so would have made for an anti-climactic ending.
So, poor as it may have been, they erred on the side of character preservation, which I appreciate.
I could not disagree more. If the line is drawn at what might affend some fans or even many fans, we will never see an interesting story again. Charatcters we care about beling placed in situations in which they have a genuine risk factor is vital; if every intense danger turns out to be a red herring, we have the lame, watered-down Silver age Kal-El stories.
whoa, go away for one ski trip, and there's a million posts.
I actually AGREE with this sentiment (and the similar ones thereafter), but for me, there is a HUGE distinction between
a) your favorite character dying, vs. b) your favorite character *turning evil*, then dying.
Perhaps I had misunderstood, but what I had heard was that Projectra would die a villain.
Going back to the Progenitor storyline, I didn't care so much that Element Lad died at the end of Legion Lost, it was that he was *turned evil*. I noted someone else had a similar feeling of betrayal with Hal Jordan, and it's the same deal....having the character die, simply ENDs the character...having them turn evil, in a way, ERASES the character retroactively.
I think if a reader becomes invested in a character as a *hero*, someone to to be inspired by and to root for, they should at least be able to rely on that character remaining a hero.
Possibly, a DEAD hero, fine (esp. if the death is heroic), but heroic nonetheless.
Of course, some may disagree with this also (obviously, this still constrains what could otherwise be "interesting" storylines), but I guess for me it's because I use comic books as "escapist" literature, not so much looking for overly interesting or new concepts, i.e. I am more of a "comics as pop culture" fan than a "comics as art" fan. But that's just me.
-------------------- "I like stuff that doesn't exist."
From: Old Lyme, CT | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Jan had taken on an immortal's point of view more than merely being flashlight-under-the-chin evil. It may not have been ideal, but it made sense. He wasn't really Jan anymore; he'd been changed and distorted over billions of years.
So while I can relate to the Hal Jordan comparison, in my opinion the Hal situation was far worse - Hal went comic-book crazy - not depressed, not traumatized but Republic-serial villain.
In neither case is it what I would have done with either, but DnA handled Jan much better (in my opinion).
Jeckie turning evil could have worked, and maybe would have under the original plan... but suddenly it became very rushed and she could magically out-Imra Imra (which could have worked if they built up to it, or even hinted at it, rather than coming out of left field). I don't think we saw enough of this Jeckie to be that invested in her (I wasn't, anyway. The "Daddy, they might let me do something important" bit was one of the few things that stand out in memory).
I don't know if she was slated to die a villain or not - I try not to read advance blurbs. I see too many people judging stories based upon advance promos; that to me takes away from the fun. Been there, done that; I'd have burnt out of comics if I still take that approach. I want to be surprised and entertained, not see all my expectations match a checklist. I think red-herring advance announcements are a good thing. Comic fans are too used to getting everything spoon-fed, both in comic flashback for 'continuity's' sake, and in our genre's news realm.
Heroes change. Some no longer remain heroes. That certainly happens in real life; like mt previous physical danger comment, if all heroes are beyond temptation in every situation, they are less interesting. This Jeckie lost her parents, homeworld and wealth, and then got slapped in the face by the UP. Right or wrong, I'm glad she didn't just say, "okay. well thanks for looking out for the interests of the whole UP at my expense." Regardless of what the advance promos said, I had hoped to be surprised as to whether she lived or died, whether she gave in to revenge fully or if she changed her heart and died with some amount of redemption. I see no point in knowing that outcome in advance.
Your perspective for escapist lit does have its value. But I fear that too tight parameters will give us watered-down melodrama, though... and the constant death/resurrection cycle contributes to the type of melodrama many of us seem tired of.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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