posted
I got his point Eryk, it was just too glib for me.
Mentalla didn't betray the Empress either, she was 'undercover'.
Do you think that a policeman or military agent who goes undercover to catch criminals or terrorists should be labeled 'traitor'?
Words like that have MEANING.
And CK ~ 'whatever' right back at you, dude.
Shadowplay
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
Sorry, but it does seem to me that if you earn somebody else's trust by making them think that you are loyal to them, and then help their enemies, that the correct description of your actions is that you have "betrayed" their trust, that you have betrayed them, and so, to that extent, you are a traitor to their cause, even if you were never sincere in adopting their cause in the first place.
That is not to say that such actions might not be the morally best actions to take, and appropriate in certain circumstances, just as it may sometimes appropriate to kill or steal from others. Robin Hood is no less a thief because he robs those who are wealthy in an unjust system and gives to those who are victims of the system.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
"I got his point Eryk, it was just too glib for me."
We're discussing comic book characters here, not real people, remember? Why make such a big deal out of things?
Or should people just not bother posting in case they ruffle the feathers of the ultra-pedants?
-------------------- "What a total entropic mess! Let me at it!"
From: London, England | Registered: Oct 2003
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The Doda Network
unregistered
posted
Sniff sniff you mean she could have been my Kara...she could have lived if KHAN had given the ok...sniff sniff...oh why oh why couldnt we have her and superboy too.....it would have been so great....Steve I absolutely loved that costume....i thought it would have been great if it had been Kara...im glad that part of my inituition was right it was her. *and lol poor brainy...he wasnt wrong after all ...just the time trapper doing another revision of history that revised kara and put in projectra hehe.
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drgoodhead
unregistered
posted
all the respect i had for MS KHAN just went straight down the drain. i always wondered how someone as gifted as PAUL LEVITZ, who wrote one hell of a soap opera with LOSH, could have been involved in such a butchery of his own work.
dollars to donuts it was also MS KHAN, responsible for all the other crap revisionism done to dc over the years(hawkman,legion,superboy,hal)
i notice a trend on the boards for persons to either be for or against different versions of the same hero(hal/kyle,katar/carter), people complaining about "continuity". did it ever occur to anyone that once you tell a good story, all of the rest stuff doesn't matters?
i remember reding the legion issues where the red herrings were tossed about regarding supergirl/projectra,in my opinion the dc universe and the legion would have been much richer if that had panned out.
paul, bless your heart for having that idea ,and now that you're THE BOSS, thanks for bringing KARA back ( go PETER!!!!!)
BTW, STEVE, WHEN CAN WE EXPECT TO SEE WHATEVER LEGION STUFF YOU'RE WORKING ON, AND IS IT ONLY THE LEGION YOU'RE INTERESTED IN? IF NOT ,WHAT ELSE?
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posted
I didn't mean to make a 'big deal' of things. Words just mean something and for me, there isn't any venue where they don't. Especially and most importantly in a written forum, and in a written forum where kids hang out.
With 9-11, there's been a lot of 'traitor' talk, a lot of undercover work being discussed.
I just need to make distinctions in motives and actions.
Especially on this thread, where Mentalla was designed using Steve's wife. I don't know if Steve wants the character remembered as a traitor, to BOTH sides. sigh
Did ya'll consider Rokk a traitor when he was working with Chu but actually trying to bring her down?
And CK ~ just because someone doesn't agree with something that you've said, or the way you've said it, doesn't mean that they don't want you to post. Or that they should stop posting, either.
Shady
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
But it's important to remember that words don't mean anything stripped of people's intentions that they do so, or the context in which they are used. I take it "traitor" in this context means a certain type of stock literary character who occurs in certain standard types of stories. Just because it has certain connotation in other contexts does not mean we have to import it into these, or that we should be afraid to use the word because of those connotations.
In real life, whether someone is labeled a traitor or not depends a lot on one's perspective. Was Benedict Arnold a traitor? Or was he just a Loyalist spy on the treasonous revolutionaries? Certainly the organization that the undercover agent infiltrates is going to consider that agent a traitor to that organization, while he will be praised as a hero by those who oppose the cause of the organization in question. Is there a use of the word "traitor" that strips it of this perspectival posturing, and yet maintains some kind of moral connotation? I'm not sure there is. But there are uses of it which are not value-laden, and I think that the use of "traitor" to describe Nemesis Kid or Mentalla is perfectly justifiable. Perhaps Rokk too if we were given more details about his relationship with Chu. As I remember it though, she never fully took him into her confidence, so he was never really given the chance to committ to her cause, so I don't think he really betrayed her. But I wouldn't be beyond saying that if details were slightly different.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I don't think that undercover agents ever 'commit' to the subject groups 'cause'. Unless they become corrupted, that is.
As far as Rokk goes, he and his Espionage Squad were working undercover against Chu from the beginning and his moral duty was to the Legion, his primary affiliation.
Mentalla certainly didn't commit herself ethically to the Fatal Five and the Empress was incapable of taking ANYONE into her confidence and trust.
When Gim quit/was tossed out of the Legion, and joined the LSV to save his mom, was he a traitor? If he was, to save his family, should that be what he's remembered for?
As far as I can remember, Mentalla was true to her primary group of concern, the Legion.
These issues were addressed in the TV series, 'Wiseguy', a number of years ago, do you remember it? The crime boss was played by Kevin Spacey, I think, and when the undercover detective brought his organization down, the crime guy said that the policeman was a traitor to their friendship. Interesting perspective and he made me cry, even though I knew he had to be stopped and the policeman was morally correct in doing what he did.
Art is supposed to reflect life if it's to have any validity. Comics are an art form. That carry over from life is SUPPOSED to be there.
It's an interesting subject to think about ~ ethics and how they translate into being used in life situations, is always worthy of discussion.
Shady
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Shadowplay in Candlelight: With 9-11, there's been a lot of 'traitor' talk, a lot of undercover work being discussed.
Especially on this thread, where Mentalla was designed using Steve's wife. I don't know if Steve wants the character remembered as a traitor, to BOTH sides. sigh
Don't you think that post is slightly over-the-top? I thought I was participating in a nice, innocuous little chat about the origin of a defunct super heroine's costume. Your wilfull and unnecessary mis-interpretation of what I was saying is totally uncalled for and to link it to September 11th is bizarre and offensive.
This all seems to have come from your opinion that I mis-used the word "traitor." Can you give us a lexicon of words and phrases you find offensive? I guess "perspective" would be at the top of the list.
And what's with that bit about Steve's wife? Why bring that up? You seem to be implying that in some way I've besmirched the reputation of a real-life person. I obviously haven't and I really don't appreciate you trying to wring every last drop of drama you possibly can out of a "controversy" which is entirely of your own creation.
Why bring any of this up in the first place? Your perma-justification that you're doing it for the kids (by which I take it you mean under 12s) rings a bit hollow considering it's a thread discussing a run of comics from over 15 years ago. How many under 12s are going to be interested in that? In my estimation - 0.
You've managed to find offense where clearly none was intended and blown the situation out of proportion. Going from a harmless post about a comic book character and spinning it into some kind of rant about the ethics of real-life counter-terrorism is ridiculous and you know it. How many potential posters see something like that and decide not to bother sharing their opinions at the risk of having their words intentionally misconstrued? Loads probably - coz I for one am going back to lurking.
-------------------- "What a total entropic mess! Let me at it!"
From: London, England | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Terence: No need to sound so happy, but I guess your silence speaks volumes.
I don't know what to say, Terence. I didn't intend for him to take any of my comments so terribly and every explanation I try just makes things worse. I need to cut my losses and move on. And so does he.
Shady
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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