posted
I agree with Portfolio Boy. Superboy and Supergirl were created for non-Legion stories and I don't think of them as Legionnaires first.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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I do recall promising to send you a paper copy of your original list. If you still have a need to reference your old list, just send me a message and I will be sure to make this a priority.
No need to go to the touble. However, please advise if you spot any errors on the list. A great many people helped with the original version and I have no doubt that I allowed errors and typos to creep in when rebuilding the list.
From: Sumner, ME | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I think it's just amazing that there are so many whose contribution to Legion lore is so out of proportion to their actual number of complete issues (Cockrum, Grell) versus those who wrote or drew so many issues that don't seem to have had any long lasting effect on what we consider "important" stories; this list seems to show that there's an awful lot of those reboot stories that don't seem to have made a whole lot of difference to a lot of us.
-------------------- The only consistent feature of all of your dissatisfying relationships is you.
Don't judge me!
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Creators tend to last much less than the labourers, and that's all to common in franchise comics. That is all. The creators which rose the Legion to new heights, for all I know, is Siegel/Swan (converted the Legion into an actual team, not a one-shot), Shooter (for introducing half of the Legion's universal concepts), and Cockrum/Levitz (rest is history).
Who brought them to new lows? John Byrne, for you-know-what. Giffen, for a big you-know-what, though he deserves a high for unknowingly converting the Legion into a more fanfare-centered franchise... and Waid, Waid, and Waid. The Legion of Three Waids consist of throwing away a 35-year old cornerstone of DC and eliminating its potential for mass (by that I mean 'general population' mass) popularity), THEN revamping a relatively young revamp to attempt getting kids to read it (well, at least he convinced at least one ), and when that wasn't successful... bringing in a Super to 'aid' the Legion, which is always effective. Not!
-------------------- "For some reason I can't explain or understand, and probably never will... EVERYTHING comes from SUPERMAN." - Alexander Luthor, Jr.
Unfortunately, the Legion is no exception.
From: Canadia | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Sorry, but to ignore Levitz/Giffen or Levitz/Lightle is simply unforgivable. And I'd say Keith solo was the ultimate high, for proving the Legion could be way more than funny costumes and fist-fights.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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posted
PenaltyKillah, though I am thinking totally different about Giffen, I love your comment about Waid... he really is kind of a tragic figure, being such a big fan but failing so miserably in all his attempts to "right" the book...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: PenaltyKillah, though I am thinking totally different about Giffen, I love your comment about Waid... he really is kind of a tragic figure, being such a big fan but failing so miserably in all his attempts to "right" the book...
To Waid's defense, his early issues on Legionnaires were very good, much better than what was going on on the "adult" (dumber) title. And I think the reboot itself was wrong, so I wouldn't blame Waid for trying something else because this is what DC had asked him. And you can't fix what was good in the first place (as time has proved).
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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posted
That's right, but wasn't Waid some kind of an editor back then when Zero Hour destroyed my faith in the comic book industry? I don't know for sure but as far as I remember, he very gladly jumped on the "let's erase all Legion Lore" bandwagon...
But while Waids fault concerning Zero Hour might be discussed, I still am totally aghast how a splendid writer like him could come up with such a callow concept for the Legion Threeboot...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: That's right, but wasn't Waid some kind of an editor back then when Zero Hour destroyed my faith in the comic book industry? I don't know for sure but as far as I remember, he very gladly jumped on the "let's erase all Legion Lore" bandwagon...
But while Waids fault concerning Zero Hour might be discussed, I still am totally aghast how a splendid writer like him could come up with such a callow concept for the Legion Threeboot...
The only time Waid was an Editor for DC, he was also the Editor for the first 5 issues of the 5YG. He didn't do editing long...about a year or so. He got out of editing when he quit the 5YG....was still in the 80's I think.
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Waid never got to write the Legion he wanted to write...5YG wasn't the Legion to him, it wasn't the Legion to a lot of us. And this is not a bash...it's just a statement that it wasn't the Legion that made a lot of Legion fans, Legion fans.
To me the 5YG is no different than the end of the Levitz run, the Reboot, the Threeboot...none of them were the book I really wanted to read. So I don't think Waid commited some horrible crime by rebooting the title..IMO it had already been rebooted and the original Legion was already gone. And I think that's the way Waid felt too..and the reason he rebooted the 5YG was so the continuity would make sense. But anyway, they were all reboots to me. The Legion was no longer special to me when Waid rebooted it...either time.
And none of them are really any better or any worse...I think Shooter has done the best Legion since the Crisis...but it's not that great. It's still not the Legion to me. It's just basically a team book. I will give Shooter this...the book doesn't feel like as much of a retread to me for some reason with him writing it...and the characters seem more alive(even with the bad dialogue).
But now...I am pretty damn tired of rebooting. I don't really care anymore, I just want them to stop rebooting the title. Just find one that works and stop rebooting it. But they aren't going to stop doing that until it sells better.
I am sick of sitting through the reintroductions/intepretations lol. That is old...
Because every time they just have to throw some tweaks in there...and they don't really do anything new. They don't really introduce anyone new...the last memorable villains created for this book, were created by Jim Shooter back in the Silver Age. That is lame...
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
We had this discussion, and talked about the reasons why to me, the Legion that grew up with me (though with major continuity challenges) felt very real and the Kiddie book that followed did not.
But that is the past, and you're right: it is not funny to get a new legion version every five years or so. thus, they never will be able to build up some decent "Legion Lore" to thrive from. The series was robbed its history, its tradition - you say it was in 1985, I'm saying it was in 1994, still since then, hardly any "new history" was established. The Reboot had its (few) moments, but mostly they tackled problems like Tangleweb - the really "history making" events like White Triangle were too few, they thought it would be better to send half of the team to the 20th century for a year to do some crossover galore...
And the Threeboot continuity feels incredibly bland, not a hinch of "history feeling" there til Shooter took over.
Another reboot is just another attempt to bring back old glory. But even if "Legion Lore" in its classic version is reintroduced - thus providing the book tons of loose end stories to thrive on - there probably won't be a large enough crowd to sustain it. We saw what the nitpickers did to Lightning Saga and Action Legion - they just did not want to accept it.
But what is the solution? Continuing the current Threeboot will never succeed, not with the shipwreck that Mark Waid delivered as a basis. Of course, with all its blandness there is a lot that any writer can add without contradicting anything that came before...
But I'll take the Classic attempt. I liked Lightning Saga for its feeling, Action Legion for its story, both for the characters featured: Classic Legionnaires who might just be the original ones.
And maybe, they could finally add some new villains too...
From: Bamberg, Germany | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Well, I meant Giffen's 'new low' as in his choice to defect the Legion from Levitz's run, to 'pay respect' or whatsoever. Or he couldn't think of a storyline to continue from the Magic Wars. What he should deserve, though, is giving the Legion a new high in storytelling quality, especially in character depth and stuff. I did not ignore the major players in the Legion's tenure, just those who initiated its descent into new heights (that's why there's Cockrum but not Grell - though copying Cockrum's designs off his sketchbook has certainly helped) or the lows (so I wouldn't blame McCraw, Peyer, or Stern, who pulled off an impressive half-decade of Archie Legion issues - they did the best under what the editorial imposed upon.)
-------------------- "For some reason I can't explain or understand, and probably never will... EVERYTHING comes from SUPERMAN." - Alexander Luthor, Jr.
Unfortunately, the Legion is no exception.
From: Canadia | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by PenaltyKillah: Well, I meant Giffen's 'new low' as in his choice to defect the Legion from Levitz's run, to 'pay respect' or whatsoever. Or he couldn't think of a storyline to continue from the Magic Wars. What he should deserve, though, is giving the Legion a new high in storytelling quality, especially in character depth and stuff. I did not ignore the major players in the Legion's tenure, just those who initiated its descent into new heights (that's why there's Cockrum but not Grell - though copying Cockrum's designs off his sketchbook has certainly helped) or the lows (so I wouldn't blame McCraw, Peyer, or Stern, who pulled off an impressive half-decade of Archie Legion issues - they did the best under what the editorial imposed upon.)
Giffen did an homage to Levitz by starting a-fresh, but not ignoring the past. Keith had such a great respect for the original run he did something that not even DC board dared to: re-think the LSH but recognizing what came before. Fine thread to run, in fact. So fine nobody was able to do so after him. At that time, there was no Sandman or Starman, which became sole properties of Gaiman and Robinson. Giffen thought that chapter of Legion had to be finished at that point. Which makes Keith's choice even more impressive, because it would be much simpler to keep going from The Magic Wars, for obvious reasons. And I was not impressed by Archie Legion. I am impressive how long it lasted considering nobody dares to place it into one the best runs of the book. For much less, Keith, Tom & Mary were "left in the dark" and "shot" by TPTB. I am still waiting for a real reappreciation of TMK's run by DC. A HC should be just the beginning of it...
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: But that is the past, and you're right: it is not funny to get a new legion version every five years or so. thus, they never will be able to build up some decent "Legion Lore" to thrive from. The series was robbed its history, its tradition - you say it was in 1985, I'm saying it was in 1994, still since then, hardly any "new history" was established. The Reboot had its (few) moments, but mostly they tackled problems like Tangleweb - the really "history making" events like White Triangle were too few, they thought it would be better to send half of the team to the 20th century for a year to do some crossover galore...
I concur. The editorial at DC, Byrne, Giffen's creative decisions... you gotta admit, it hurt the Legion's potential of keeping up with the Titans and possibly the X-Men. If something (in this case, any Legion incarnation after CoIE) doesn't have sufficient time to build up and generate the hype and lore needed to create some buzz, it would be even more difficult to instantly start all over, especially when the backstory isn't there, references and relevances to the past are insufficient or just superficial, etc. One more note about Keith... while I mentioned before that his decision to deviate from the previous run, he did bring in a whole new fanbase with plots that, compared with comics published that time and even now, managed to humanize the characters that we all love. And especially for a futuristic book leaning on the sci-fi genre! For that, I tip my hat to Keith, as well as Tom & Mary.
-------------------- "For some reason I can't explain or understand, and probably never will... EVERYTHING comes from SUPERMAN." - Alexander Luthor, Jr.
Unfortunately, the Legion is no exception.
From: Canadia | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by PenaltyKillah: Well, I meant Giffen's 'new low' as in his choice to defect the Legion from Levitz's run, to 'pay respect' or whatsoever. Or he couldn't think of a storyline to continue from the Magic Wars. What he should deserve, though, is giving the Legion a new high in storytelling quality, especially in character depth and stuff. I did not ignore the major players in the Legion's tenure, just those who initiated its descent into new heights (that's why there's Cockrum but not Grell - though copying Cockrum's designs off his sketchbook has certainly helped) or the lows (so I wouldn't blame McCraw, Peyer, or Stern, who pulled off an impressive half-decade of Archie Legion issues - they did the best under what the editorial imposed upon.)
Giffen did an homage to Levitz by starting a-fresh, but not ignoring the past. Keith had such a great respect for the original run he did something that not even DC board dared to: re-think the LSH but recognizing what came before. Fine thread to run, in fact. So fine nobody was able to do so after him. At that time, there was no Sandman or Starman, which became sole properties of Gaiman and Robinson. Giffen thought that chapter of Legion had to be finished at that point. Which makes Keith's choice even more impressive, because it would be much simpler to keep going from The Magic Wars, for obvious reasons. And I was not impressed by Archie Legion. I am impressive how long it lasted considering nobody dares to place it into one the best runs of the book. For much less, Keith, Tom & Mary were "left in the dark" and "shot" by TPTB. I am still waiting for a real reappreciation of TMK's run by DC. A HC should be just the beginning of it...
Holy wow... not one for TMK? Very uncalled-for... and the Archie Legion's run was 'impressive' for staying that long without any intervention from above. If DC thought that Reboot was delighting the bulk of the Legion's fanbase, especially the ones enchanted by TMK, by keeping Waid's non-editorial decision... and more significantly, letting sales plummet during that decade... they were very wrong indeed. I mean, the '90s was, all in all, the Great Depression for the comic medium. Creator-owned comics was on the rise, Giffen did something like it with his deviation of the Legion, but the point is that those great comic franchises were able to survive with all the licensing deals for those Saturday morning cartoons. It was the time when alternatives had to be explored for those companies to survive, and bringing back the Legion's old times (especially a retelling of the Swan and Shooter years) didn't cut the cake.
-------------------- "For some reason I can't explain or understand, and probably never will... EVERYTHING comes from SUPERMAN." - Alexander Luthor, Jr.
Unfortunately, the Legion is no exception.
From: Canadia | Registered: Jul 2008
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), and when that wasn't successful... bringing in a Super to 'aid' the Legion, which is always effective. Not!![[Smile]](smile.gif)
