posted
I love how these threads generate so much discussion
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: her kicking butt in the Crisis and after her origin ... sold me on her and I thought it was a shame to lose her so quickly. Was this a misjudgement on the writer's part or ... did it make us love her even more? Probably a bit of both.
Also, I love the take on her powers, she's like the age old ice generating character but ... with a fresh twist. Also actually being able to turn people into crystal ... was great! and vicious!
and she had great control over her powers, able to make many useful shapes!
Marv Wolfman on Kole [from The Titans Companion, 2005]
TTC: This was the period when Kole was introduced. Can you explain what the origin behind that character was?
MW: Well, simply put, in Crisis the call went out for characters who we’d kill or not kill or do damage to. [laughs] I’m saying this a very cruel fashion right now, and it wasn’t done that way, hopefully, back then. Everyone was required to give us somebody in some fashion, and quite frankly, I created Kole specifically for that purpose. It was to die in Crisis.
TTC: Once Jose designed her and gave her life, did you regret having to do that to her?
MW: Of course. In fact, that’s the best type of character to kill, because she was no longer a wretcher. She was no longer just fodder for the cannon. She was somebody who the readers really got to care for, and therefore it became very hard to kill her, but it meant that her death meant something.
TTC: Kole wasn’t the only Titan to die in Crisis: Dove and Aquagirl were also killed during that series. If you had wanted to, could you have said, “I’ve already filled my quota of dead Titans. I’m going to spare Kole?”
MW: My view of that was because the other writers were being asked to kill off characters, some for whom they may have been created, I had to show that I was willing to go further and definitely kill off a character that I created. Again, a lot of that’s political. I wish that didn’t have to happen, because I really liked the character, but I had to find some way to say, “You’re not the only ones being affected.”
posted
Man, I really wish Marv had killed off that whiny Azrael instead! No offense to fans ofthe character, but he really annoyed me - and winged flight adds nothing new, whereas Kole's powers were much more unique.
Of course, Kole's death hit harder but... I would much rather have had her around!
Unlike ... Professor X's recent meaningless death ... = bad writing.
Also, Lardy, The early Wolfman Perez stories were excellent. just exquisite ... and actually I think comics in general owes a lot to them.
When Raven did finally go evil, they showed a slide show of how her look had changed over time ... they drew her subtly different and wrote her subtely different over the course of years! (ok maybe 2)
I can only speculate but Uncanny X-Men and The Teen Titans were the top books for so long, It only makes sense that there might have been some sort of creative one upmanship that helped make great stories.
From: Ninja Land | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Invisible Brainiac: I think Kole's tragically short tenure combined with how she was written in Crisis to make her so well-loved.
I read both her Crisis appearances and her main Titans book appearances, and I have to say that if I'd only read her in Titans I wouldn't have cared about her at all. There was her awful origin as mentioned, and she also spent much of that time weeping and being generally overwhelmed.
On the other hand, in Crisis she was confident, sure of herself, very pleasant, optimistic and acted like a pro - I was surprised to find out she wasn't one of the Titans mainstays, she acted so competent!
I was just about to say the exact same thing!
I first 'met' Kole in Crisis and I immediately thought "Who is this fun, awesome Titan that I've never heard of before with this interesting power and fresh, unique look?"
And then I read her appearances in the main book and was like "Ugh! Cool Titan but talk about being saddled with a crappy introduction story, an even crappier origin story (I HATE the bug-parents!) and the world's most boring 'boyfriend' (pre man-slut Jericho... hey - maybe it was Kole's death that turned him into that! haha). And then she was killed off! So unfair!
I respect Marv Wolfman's reasons for doing so though. Since he was killing off so many other writer's characters it was only fair that he kill off one of his own too.
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I started to detest Jericho because of his treatment of Kole ... he was supposed to be such a charmer because he was sensitive ... and played guitar and was injured ... (we get it) ... and then by dissing Kole ... he changed into a sleezy creep who had commitment issues. Overcompensation because his power was weak and redundant.
He didn't know a catch when it hit him over the head with a crystal hammer.
(I block out the bug parents thing ... she is an orphan in my mind, kidnapped by Thia ... hell I'd prefer if she was just a random lower level Titan or fairy or something ... than a kidnapped mutant who looks suspiciously like a Titan of myth and/or fairy)
From: Ninja Land | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I find it so cool that we see her pretty much the same way, and we also were introduced to her the same way - Crisis first, then Titans!
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: I started to detest Jericho because of his treatment of Kole ... he was supposed to be such a charmer because he was sensitive ... and played guitar and was injured ... (we get it) ... and then by dissing Kole ... he changed into a sleezy creep who had commitment issues. Overcompensation because his power was weak and redundant.
He didn't know a catch when it hit him over the head with a crystal hammer.
Hear hear! I actually respected him for turning down Kole's request to make love, but I hated it when they started making him have so many girlfriends!
posted
You could do Defenders one from Marvel also. Though at this point I don't know what distinguishes one team from another over there. But DEF certainly started out as a very unique and interesting team, very different from Avengers and XMen
-------------------- "Hey Jim! Get Mon out of the Zone!! And...when do we get Condo back?"
From: Paragon City on patrol | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Whoops! Didn't realize I wasn't replying to the last post. Sorry.
A far as Kole...since I dropped into the middle of the conversation. Seeing Marv's explanation for her origin helps explain some of the crazy intro and background. If you're going to kill her anyway, why waste a good origin tale. I think people liked her in spite of the writing team, because she came across like the girl next door type.
-------------------- "Hey Jim! Get Mon out of the Zone!! And...when do we get Condo back?"
From: Paragon City on patrol | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I started drawing up the list for Justice League, and they sure have a lot of splinter teams... X-Men will be much worse, since we have X-Factor, X-Force, the X-Men students... Defenders would be nice, though probably short I think.
In any case, Justice League next then we'll see from there
Guess Marv might have made Kole's origin outlandish at that...
Switching to another of our winners, I'm really glad Flamebird was revived and used more. Always nice reading about underdog heroes!
posted
Justice League, Justice League, Justice League ...
It should be very different for me because unlike the Titans ... I actually don't like most of the "prime" members.
Barry Allen and Martian Manhunter are the only founders I like.
Hawkwoman however ... will be getting tons of votes from me.
From: Ninja Land | Registered: Nov 2004
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: Justice League, Justice League, Justice League ...
It should be very different for me because unlike the Titans ... I actually don't like most of the "prime" members.
Barry Allen and Martian Manhunter are the only founders I like.
Hawkwoman however ... will be getting tons of votes from me.
Same here. Instead of the 'trinity' of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, my votes would be more focused on characters like Hawkwoman, Black Canary, Vixen and Booster Gold.
The League has had a ton of characters come and go, in short-lived teams or retcon appearances, Moon Maiden and Manitou Raven and Coldcast and Major Disaster and Silver Sorceress and Aztek.
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I too won't be throwing that many votes to the Trinity or even to the Big Seven, except for J'Onn and Diana. For the rest of the Satellite Era/Watchtower, probably will give points to Elongated Man, Black Canary Firestorm and Zatanna. A lot of JLI era Leaguers will get plenty of votes from me though - Dr. Light, Fire, Ice, Beetle, Booster, Metamorpho, Power Girl...
One problem I'm having with making a list, is how to treat all these versions. For the comics, I've decided to just have one set for Pre-Flashpoint and one for Post-Flashpoint. But how do I treat the ones who've been retconned massively?
Katar Hol and Carter Hall will get separate entries, as will Shayera and Shiera. But I don't think I'll treat Pre-Crisis Diana and Post-Crisis Diana differently; same for Bruce and Clark.
My other major problem is how to treat the various animated universes. Should I make a completely different list for the Super Friends, or only include Super Friends who have no counterparts in the Justice League Unlimited universe? How about the Young Justice version? Or the Brave and the Bold version? Do I treat each separately, or can I safely merge them all?
posted
Just bumping up to say that JLA Idol is still in the works, but I hope to get this started after the holiday season (though hopefully things at work will get settled down a bit by then!)
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
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