quote:Originally posted by Clive: One of the times I was satisfied was with Simonson's run, so I'll have to disagree with ya there, Des. I loved the crazy ideas, the bigger-than-life art, and most of all, I loved his take on Doom and his history! Coincedentally, that's the most controversial aspect of his run. But if you're the FF writer, this is exactly the kind of risk you have to take!
I agree wholeheartedly on that comment. To be the FF writer, that is precisely the risk you must always take.
I also enjoyed the first few issues of Jim Lee's run, but ultimately it wasn't good at all. That could be just b/c of the art though, and art is never enough for me. Its not even 50% of the battle. Plus, to me, a 'run' twelve issues does not make. A real run must be at least 18 . *Especially* when it comes to the FF.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
One of the things you haveto do to prove yourself as FF writer is to tackle Doom. Not only do you have to take him on, but you also have to do something new with him. Byrne, Simonson and Waid did that. It's not the be-all, end-all of the job requirement, but it has to happen for you to be taken seriously.
Same is true of the Red Skull with Cap and the Joker with Batman. Spidey, oddly enough as great as his villains are, doesn't have that requirement in my opinion. You can ignore Doc Ock, the Goblins, etc. and still have a successful run if the writing's good enough.
Registered: Oct 2003
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I agree with that. Doing it with Dr. Doom in the FF is probably the strongest example too. Certainly, he's more a part of a series as the main villain more than any other villain in any other series.
I personally think he's the single greatest comic book villain of all time.
Other titles where the villain must be addressed: Thor (Loki, though even if not used as full-on 'villain'), Superman (Luthor),
Other titles where it doesn't: Iron Man, Flash, Green Lantern.
But yeah, Doom needs to be addressed in any run of the FF. Even if you have a 50+ issue run, one really great Doom story can really pile on some credibility.
I'd also say: one of the things you have to do to prove yourself on the FF as writer is create one entirely (1) new villain/antagonist or (2) new situation / universe that causes the FF all kinds of problems. That's at the very least. I'd say to make yourself one of the FF greats, you'd have to do at least three.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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There's "doing something new with Doom" and there's "assassinating the character's character." Byrne, Simonson; I'll give you. Waid, like Marv Wolfman in FF200, did the latter.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
I wouldn't say "totally stupid" [Hint: Read Roger Stern & Mike Mignola's Dr Strange/Dr Doom: Triumph and Torment. By any means necessary.] That's the least of the things I object to about that arc. Rejecting his armour, the means by which he procures a replacement, DOOM DEALING WITH $%^&ING DEMONS, Doom premeditatively putting anyone or anything in a position to have power over him, the "keeping his word" scene... all of these things are FAR higher on my "why that arc was stupid beyond measure" list.
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
quote:Originally posted by Clive: One of the times I was satisfied was with Simonson's run, so I'll have to disagree with ya there, Des. I loved the crazy ideas, the bigger-than-life art, and most of all, I loved his take on Doom and his history! Coincedentally, that's the most controversial aspect of his run. But if you're the FF writer, this is exactly the kind of risk you have to take!
I agree 100%. I can only add that Simonson's futuristic re-design of Doom's armor was awesome (someone needs to bring it back) and that Simonson's battle between Reed and Doom was the most technically innovative FF sequence since Lee & Kirby in their prime; to date, no subsequent FF creator has equalled it.
quote:Orignally posted by Clive: I also enjoyed Alan Davis's too, too, TOO short run on the title before giving way to Claremont! Ugh! Alan was born to do FF, dammit!!!
Have you read Davis's alternate-universe mini-series, Fantastic Four: The End? I admit it's not Davis doing the "real" FF, but it's still quite good.
posted
Des, can you clue us in as to why Simonson's run didn't do it for you ("underwhelmed")? I'll admit the "new FF" storyline was gimmicky (but still kinda fun)--is that your main objection?
Registered: Oct 2003
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Pretty much. I admit I haven't read it since my mid-teens and when I did read it, I read the entire Fantastic Four run from #1 to then present day issue, which was around the time Reed and Doom were supposedly dead.
I'm not calling it terrible by any means (and I do call JMS's run terrible). The Doom/Reed sequence you both mention I can recall and remember enjoying it too. In fact, I don't mind the Simonson/Doom retcon that much at all.
Just all and all it felt like a lackadazical effort to me. And while I appreciate seeing Thor and Iron Man and others in the FF, that didn't feel right either here.
Maybe one day I'll give this run a second chance .
But like I said, I don't really think any FF run besides Byrne can compare to Kirby and Lee, which are not just better, but are a lot better than the rest.
Now if you want to discuss Simonson's Thor, I can give you an issue by issue example of why it was so great, since that left a much more positive impression on me (and yeah--nerd that I am, I read that entire run too from JiM #83 up).
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Clive: One of the times I was satisfied was with Simonson's run, so I'll have to disagree with ya there, Des. I loved the crazy ideas, the bigger-than-life art, and most of all, I loved his take on Doom and his history! Coincedentally, that's the most controversial aspect of his run. But if you're the FF writer, this is exactly the kind of risk you have to take!
I agree 100%. I can only add that Simonson's futuristic re-design of Doom's armor was awesome (someone needs to bring it back) and that Simonson's battle between Reed and Doom was the most technically innovative FF sequence since Lee & Kirby in their prime; to date, no subsequent FF creator has equalled it.
It's extremely dissappointing to me that this story was ignored by subsequent writers. In fact I seem to recall a story (possibly by DeFalco) explaining how it wasn't really Doom. Ugh!
To me, that's the single best Doom story (and one of the best FF stories) ever written, so it pisses me off how it's been swept aside!
I also think Simonson's version of the armor (or a modification of it) was reused for Doom 2099. What a waste!
quote:Have you read Davis's alternate-universe mini-series, Fantastic Four: The End? I admit it's not Davis doing the "real" FF, but it's still quite good.
No, I'd heard about it and thought about picking it up, but I'm not a big fan of those types of stories unless it's set in the ongoing title and affects its storyline (the best ever being X-Men's "Days of Future Past"). That said, I still may pickl it up some time because I'm such a big fan of his take on the characters.
Registered: Oct 2003
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Des, Lee/Kirby and Byrne were definitely superior (and longer), but I did feel that Simonson got the FF. And that, fundamentally, is the most important thing. Plus, the Doom storyline and the multi-parter that started his run were just plain kickass!
Simonson's Thor? One of the best runs on any comic EVER!!! I think the whole thing was effin' awesome, even after Sal Buscema took over on art. Hell, even something as ludicrous as Thor Frog just kicked ASS! Man--they just don't DO comics like those Simonson Thor issues any more!
Registered: Oct 2003
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Yeah, agree about Siminson's Thor, and also include Sal Buscema's issues as part of that (which I also feel are A+ excellent). Like I said, I could talk that entire run up anytime
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Sal's art really was terrific when he took over! Though he obviously adjusted his own style to compare to Walt's, I found it very appealing.
What I wouldn't give to see Walt back on Thor and Byrne back on FF! Maybe you can't go home again, but I'd sure like to find out! Byrne has said repeatedly he'd do FF again, but I don't think that'll happen as long as Quesada's in power.
Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: 27. FANTASTIC FOUR 04/03 Fantastic Four #68 - 51,405 04/04 Fantastic Four #512 - 52,953 04/05 Fantastic Four #525 - 45,561 04/06 Fantastic Four #537 - 62,940 ===== 04/07 Fantastic Four #545 - 77,576 ( -9.5%) 05/07 Fantastic Four #546 - 72,182 ( -7.0%) 06/07 Fantastic Four #547 - 69,610 ( -3.6%) 07/07 — 08/07 Fantastic Four #548 - 65,695 ( -5.6%) 08/07 Fantastic Four #549 - 61,770 ( -6.0%) 09/07 — 10/07 Fantastic Four #550 - 57,906 ( -6.3%) 11/07 Fantastic Four #551 - 58,617 ( +1.2%) 12/07 Fantastic Four #552 - 51,320 ( -12.4%) 01/08 Fantastic Four #553 - 48,332 ( -5.8%) 02/08 Fantastic Four #554 - 98,111 (+103.0%) 03/08 Fantastic Four #555 - 67,416 ( -31.3%) 04/08 Fantastic Four #556 - 65,013 ( -3.6%) 6 mnth ( +12.3%) 1 year ( -16.2%) 2 year ( +3.3%) 3 year ( +42.7%) 4 year ( +22.8%) 5 year ( +26.5%)Levelling out pretty quickly, but the book remains mired at the level of its “Initiative” tie-ins. With an A-list creative team like Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch, it’s very surprising to see the book this far down the chart.
At this rate, it's going to end up with about the same sales as the McDuffie issues. How delightful.
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. *Especially* when it comes to the FF.
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One of the best runs on any comic EVER!!! I think the whole thing was effin' awesome, even after Sal Buscema took over on art. Hell, even something as ludicrous as Thor Frog just kicked ASS! Man--they just don't DO comics like those Simonson Thor issues any more!
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