posted
It occurred to me tonight (and knowing LW, it's probably come up before) that, especially pre-5YG, all the Legionnaire deaths were guys.
The only exceptions were two-thirds of Luornu and Supergirl, and even those are kinda debatable. I mean:
Luornu--The first-third's death was kinda brushed off with kind of a: "Oh! Guess I'm Duo Damsel, now! *Tee-hee*" vibe to it. And the second-third was reversed by Tom and Mary. In any case we never really lost Lu, did we?
Kara--well, she didn't really die as a Legionnaire, did she? And she hadn't even been an active member in a loong time (if she ever truly was compared to Superboy and other members). I'd say, in a way, Kara was never or rarely more than an honorary member or guest star, in practice, if not in fact.
Meanwhile, we lost Ferro Lad, Invisible Kid, Chemical King, Karate Kid, Superboy and Magnetic Kid (did I miss anyone?), all of the male gender and all in Legion stories in the same period of time pre-5YG.
So if you buy my reasoning, that's six guys to no girls. Or six versus 1 and a third if you don't.
In the 5YG, we lost Blok, Sun Boy, SW6 Cham and SW6 Karate Kid versus SW6 Projectra and Laurel Gand off the top of my head. That ratio improves over pre-5YG pretty well--and we're left with 2 to 1 (though I'm probably forgetting someone).
In the reboot we had Leviathon and Element Lad versus Monstress, right? 2:1
And WaKboot, so far we only have Dreamy...though that's debatable. But for now, we'll count her.
And if you look more closely at the female deaths: Lu was never really gone, SW6 Projectra was merely cannon fodder with the other two SW6ers, Laurel Gand probably never would've been killed if not for Zero Hour and the reboot (probably to yank at our heart strings as a parting shot as she was one of 5YG's superstars), Monstress was one of the most disliked LSHers in history and Dreamy, well, she kinda never really left, did she?
All of the males I listed were gone-gone (though possibly not Jan--that was confusing!) when they were killed, and of course, they were more numerous.
In any case we've had a good number of girl Legionnaires, and though historically their powers tend to be weaker, they're survivors! Why do you think it is that LSH writers tend to kill males before the females. Is that an LSH trend or a comic books-in-general trend? Andwhat does that say?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pretty strange! I never noticed that. Maybe killing the girls was like putting women in combat - it just wasn't done, until recently - and even now some people think it just isn't right.
In the pre-boot, there was also the fake death of "Saturn Girl", i.e. Proty as Saturn Girl sacrificing herself for Lightning Lad.
Phantom Girl was blown up in her cruiser, along with her mother, in 5YG.
While the "Saturn Girl" death was heroic in its intention, neither female died in battle. Apart from the cannon fodder SW6, the only females to die in battle were Andromeda and Lu #1 (and #2, before TMK). Monstress is debatable, she was trying to talk to Jan - not a combat death. Dream Girl was just sort of standing there when a building fell on her.
Sounds like a "this mission is too dangerous for a girl" mentality.
posted
in Reboot, Tinya died in combat with Daxamites, but got better.
Tasmia was set up for her death prophesy to be fulfilled in #300, but of course that was a red herring.
There were various statis/false deaths (Jeckie was one of the five 'dead' LSHers in a 2-parter towards the end of the Adventure run; several (including Tasmia? I forget) were 'killed' by the League of Super-Assassins in the 250s of SLSH... but of course they all got better.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I remember I had a long post on this subject years ago when I first joined Legion World.
Danged if I can remember where it is or what I said in it though.
Needless to say I completely agree with your points Kent. (And you forgot to include Kid Quantum in your reboot deaths. Not to mention all the supporting cast males who've died over the years - Beast Boy, Atom'x, Blast-Off, Jediah Rikane... I'm sure I'm forgetting some.)
I think there are probably a few reasons why this is the case -
1. Cramer's probably right in that some people still have a subconcious squeamishness about seeing women killed in combat situations (think about all the 20th Century DCU females who have been killed/incapacitated out of uniform or off-duty - the whole 'Women in Refridgerators' thing - though I do think that's changing)
2. There have also always been more male characters in the Legion mythos, ergo more male deaths.
3. I'd say that ever since Cockrum/Grell and especially ever since Levitz the females of this team have been given more interesting/dynamic personalities than a lot of the guys, which probably made them a bit more indispensable when it came to choosing someone to deep six.
4. Another reason that sounds wise and insightful. It's late and my mind's blank at the moment so someone add this one for me.
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think your three reasons have pretty much hit the nail on the head, Blacula.
It should be noted that although permanent deaths of female Legionnaires have been rare, that hasn't prevented cover artists from frequently putting women in death-like situations. For example:
-- Superboy # 200: Superboy is carrying the unconcious-and-near-death Duo Damsel toward the gigantic form of Starfinger (who remains normal-sized in the story).
-- Superboy # 205: Lana is shot by a Legion firing squad, along with Ultra Boy. (Notice that Lana is more prominent in the image than Jo. Notice also where Brainy's ray blast hits her.)
-- Superboy # 209: Projectra is shown lying on a slab in the med center, as the cover title proclaims, "Who Can Save the Princess?"
Superboy # 210 has Phantom Girl being stabbed with a phantom knife, though this is not shown on the cover.
These examples, culled from the same era, are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other examples from different eras, as well. The fact that these covers are fairly close in succession shows, I think, that there was still a marketable value in putting the girls in dangerous situations (perhaps so they could be rescued by the boys, which they all were).
I also think that there was perhaps a deliberate sexual element to some of these depictions. (Note the Lana cover, above.) Given that the primary audience for comics, then as now, is adolescent boys, it's understandable -- in a somewhat under-the-table way -- that DC preferred putting the female Legionnaires in situations that highlighted their sexuality instead of disposing of them for good.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
D'oh! Definitely forgot about James Cullen, Jazmin's bro! But that only helps my point.
Honestly, I don't see why supporting character deaths, near-deaths and damsels-in-distress are being brought into the equation. But, for the sake of argument, probably the one character I came closest to mentioning, who wasn't an actual Legionnaire, was Mentalla.
For my money, Mentalla's death is and was the most affecting female death (and up there with the better male deaths in my mind) I've seen in any Legion story, and I'm not really sure why. Maybe it was the cruelty of her murder or the sheer tragedy of her going from a Legion reject to trying to infiltrating the Fatal Five in order to prove her worth. Hard to say.
Was anyone else similarly affected by Mentalla's death? And, if so, can anyone nail exactly why it was she grabbed you by the heartstrings? Would the effect have been the same if the character was male?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: Was anyone else similarly affected by Mentalla's death? And, if so, can anyone nail exactly why it was she grabbed you by the heartstrings? Would the effect have been the same if the character was male?
Definitely. I liked that, while some other Rejects got all huffy and became super-villains (Ron-Karr, anyone?), or even formed their own 'loser squad,' she didn't give up or find another gig, she attempted to *prove* why she was a worthy Legionnaire, dagnabbit!
It made her death more potent. Her choice was overconfident, perhaps even arrogant, but it was a heroic choice, not the 'logical' choice of running to the Legion and saying, 'Uh, the Emerald Empress just tried to recruit me for the the all-new Fatal Five, ya might wanna do something about that...'
She made an honest mistake, and paid for it with her life, and I think her arc worked perfectly, in that she truly 'died before her time,' giving it a little kick, because we *hadn't* gotten to really know her, but *had* been given reason to admire her courage. (Unlike, say, any of the Wanderers or Terror Firma, from the lastest threeboot, who could all die fiery deaths with minimal reader impact (save, perhaps, for some rejoicing, in the case of Jeyra Entin), since they are all amoral scumbags at best, and non-entities at worst.)
Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: I think your three reasons have pretty much hit the nail on the head, Blacula.
It should be noted that although permanent deaths of female Legionnaires have been rare, that hasn't prevented cover artists from frequently putting women in death-like situations. For example:
-- Superboy # 200: Superboy is carrying the unconcious-and-near-death Duo Damsel toward the gigantic form of Starfinger (who remains normal-sized in the story).
-- Superboy # 205: Lana is shot by a Legion firing squad, along with Ultra Boy. (Notice that Lana is more prominent in the image than Jo. Notice also where Brainy's ray blast hits her.)
-- Superboy # 209: Projectra is shown lying on a slab in the med center, as the cover title proclaims, "Who Can Save the Princess?"
Superboy # 210 has Phantom Girl being stabbed with a phantom knife, though this is not shown on the cover.
These examples, culled from the same era, are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other examples from different eras, as well. The fact that these covers are fairly close in succession shows, I think, that there was still a marketable value in putting the girls in dangerous situations (perhaps so they could be rescued by the boys, which they all were).
I also think that there was perhaps a deliberate sexual element to some of these depictions. (Note the Lana cover, above.) Given that the primary audience for comics, then as now, is adolescent boys, it's understandable -- in a somewhat under-the-table way -- that DC preferred putting the female Legionnaires in situations that highlighted their sexuality instead of disposing of them for good.
HWW brings up a relevant point about females in danger in comics in that there is quite often an implied sexuality involved and always has been. I’m not sure if its all that apparent, or all that horrible in the Legion mythos, but its certainly there when you look at the history of the industry as a whole, and its of course very disturbing.
One could *almost* see it as harmlessness in the Silver Age, where Lois is kidnapped by some criminals. Yet, one might look at the other extreme seen in horror films today, where 50% of them show an almost pornographic depiction of rape that is without a doubt included to ‘titillate the audience’. There is undoubtedly a connection there, as restrictions of what you can put in fiction have been removed. This is a much larger topic about the portrayal of women in comics, movies, etc., of course but I think its always relevant to at least mention it when discussing something like the deaths and near-deaths of females Legionnaires in Legion history.
For the Legion in general, it’s always felt like there’s been a lack of misogynistic tendencies throughout its history with a few random exceptions (what the Braalian holiday?). But I wouldn’t argue that its been the opposite. I’d say that probably the first couple of Legionnaires dying being male had more to do with the ‘too dangerous for a girl’ mentality until the 80’s when things slightly evened out and everybody became open for death. Since then, it’s been about even, which you can particularly see in the 5YL Legion: Nightwind, Tinya, Laurel dying towards the end, Vi losing a leg, etc.—all examples of a much larger evenly spread ‘horrible things happening to all the Legionnaires’.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
Tangential to the 'women in danger on the covers' aspect, I read recently about how the original 'helpless victim tied to the train tracks' scenario was a man, who was rescued by a woman, but that every fictional depiction of the event since has reversed the genders.
I could see a silver age comic writer wanting to slant the covers to appeal to the young males that made up their audience. Putting a female figure in distress would be one way to get them worked up to see how they get saved (as opposed to a more modern audience, which would expect that more aggressive and effective female figures like Sue Storm, Jean Grey or Jenny Walters not only rescue them damn selves, but several of their hapless male team-mates in the process!).
In the post Lt. Ellen Ripley / Buffy / Aeryn Sun world, the young males are more likely to be 'titillated' by kick-ass women who are more likely to save the menfolk than by helpless swooning maidens in need of rescue. (Or maybe that's just me, but if finding Claudia Black in black leather holding big@$$ gun sexy is wrong, then I don't want to be right!)
Sarah Conner, from the Terminator movies, is the clearest example I can think of for this transition in the 'role of women' on-screen. Helpless waitress / victim in movie one. Gun-toting hardcase combatant in the second.
Vi, after her kidnapping and impersonation, would be a good Legion example. From meek and un-assertive to butt-kicking and take-no-prisoners. Tasmia and Projectra also 'cowboyed up' considerably over the years. Both kind of stood there and waved their powers at people in their original iterations, and both later transformed into effective hand-to-hand fighters.
Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: I think your three reasons have pretty much hit the nail on the head, Blacula.
It should be noted that although permanent deaths of female Legionnaires have been rare, that hasn't prevented cover artists from frequently putting women in death-like situations. For example:
-- Superboy # 200: Superboy is carrying the unconcious-and-near-death Duo Damsel toward the gigantic form of Starfinger (who remains normal-sized in the story).
-- Superboy # 205: Lana is shot by a Legion firing squad, along with Ultra Boy. (Notice that Lana is more prominent in the image than Jo. Notice also where Brainy's ray blast hits her.)
-- Superboy # 209: Projectra is shown lying on a slab in the med center, as the cover title proclaims, "Who Can Save the Princess?"
Superboy # 210 has Phantom Girl being stabbed with a phantom knife, though this is not shown on the cover.
These examples, culled from the same era, are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other examples from different eras, as well. The fact that these covers are fairly close in succession shows, I think, that there was still a marketable value in putting the girls in dangerous situations (perhaps so they could be rescued by the boys, which they all were).
I also think that there was perhaps a deliberate sexual element to some of these depictions. (Note the Lana cover, above.) Given that the primary audience for comics, then as now, is adolescent boys, it's understandable -- in a somewhat under-the-table way -- that DC preferred putting the female Legionnaires in situations that highlighted their sexuality instead of disposing of them for good.
HWW brings up a relevant point about females in danger in comics in that there is quite often an implied sexuality involved and always has been. I’m not sure if its all that apparent, or all that horrible in the Legion mythos, but its certainly there when you look at the history of the industry as a whole, and its of course very disturbing.
One could *almost* see it as harmlessness in the Silver Age, where Lois is kidnapped by some criminals. Yet, one might look at the other extreme seen in horror films today, where 50% of them show an almost pornographic depiction of rape that is without a doubt included to ‘titillate the audience’. There is undoubtedly a connection there, as restrictions of what you can put in fiction have been removed. This is a much larger topic about the portrayal of women in comics, movies, etc., of course but I think its always relevant to at least mention it when discussing something like the deaths and near-deaths of females Legionnaires in Legion history.
But it's a far way from the good old "Damsel-in-distress" scenario to the Horror movies you are mentioning. I can't really say much about the latter cause I refrain from watching any of these modern "killing celebrations" for ethical reasons (not that I would be very interested in them in the first place). But if there was actual rape being shown - aren't there any laws against that?
It's certainly a different age than in the 60s, and even though I love the good old Legion Lore, I have big difficulties actually READING those stories in the archives because to todays eyes, they really often are very cheesy, and the portrayal of women in one major part of that.
Another fact I never understood was why they never did female action figures, by the way. Even the Legion figures from the 90: Only one single female (Imra), no Tinya, no Luornu, no Jeckie, no Ayla... but a boring Colossal Boy, a boring Timber Wolf...
Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: Another fact I never understood was why they never did female action figures, by the way. Even the Legion figures from the 90: Only one single female (Imra), no Tinya, no Luornu, no Jeckie, no Ayla... but a boring Colossal Boy, a boring Timber Wolf...
Anybody ever understood that?
To the 12th century mentalities behind toy manufacture;
[sarcasm] Boy Legion miniatures are 'action figures,' in the manly style of G.I. Joe, no doubt being played with in a rough and tumble socially acceptable 'boy' way, simulating combat and stuff. Ruff, ruff. Grrr.
Girl Legion miniatures are 'dolls,' particularly if any of their clothing bits / accessories are adjustable, encouraging the child to play 'dress up' and be all effeminate and practice socially unacceptable 'un-boy-like' behavior, and would irreparably damage the masculinity of any young male who played with them. 'Cause, yanno, to the healthy heterosexual male child, girls = icky. [/sarcasm]
Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Chem, that's my point, to show that the Silver Age mentality is much different than today's current horror movie mentality, though there is some connect there after a wide range of 40 years. But definately I don't see any wide array of misogyny in Legion lore, especially the Silver Age.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Set: Tangential to the 'women in danger on the covers' aspect, I read recently about how the original 'helpless victim tied to the train tracks' scenario was a man, who was rescued by a woman, but that every fictional depiction of the event since has reversed the genders.
This enigmatic comment intrigued me so much that I went and did some minor Google research. It sounds like you're referring to the 1867 American play Under the Gaslight, where a woman rescues a man tied to some train tracks.
According to a reference I found, this scene may have been borrowed from a preexisting English melodrama, but it doesn't say whether the victim in that melodrama was a man or a woman.
-------------------- Aaron Kashtan/Sir Tim Drake
From: Providence, RI | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
It definately goes with the point I'm trying to get across (probably failing to do so). There is definately a direct connection b/t 'damsels in distress' in comics & other literature of 40 years ago and the pretty terrible sexuality of females in danger today (in films, comics, etc.), but the Legion is oddly enough, not really a part of this trend.
Not only is a trend-setter in regards to having strong female characters as leader (yay Imra!), but the Legion also fought very pervalent and awful above mentioned trend throughout its history.*
* = there are of course occassional examples that go against this, but to a much lesser extent than most other long running comics.
[ September 11, 2007, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Cobalt Kid ]
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
