I have been reading the LSH since 1978 in all it's many incarnations so I remember the poor traetment Tyroc received in his brief career in the Legion. Recently I re-read the few stories were Tyroc played some role in the story. This excludes the many in the background no talking shots of references to the character. He really only has 4 stories..his first appearance/rascism storyline, his fight with who would become Earth Man and his entry ceremony, his arrest by the Legion..issue 222 and his origin/vanishing in 264-266. That's it folks! Some thoughts as I re read it all.. . Marzal could have just reappeared explaining Tyroc's where abouts..also the current xenophobic storyline would work well to an island removed from the world. . Very cool powers..like Black Canary on acid..the teleportation might have to not be used because of Gates..but this could be explained away to the phasing of the island. . How bout a love triangle..in the past stories Shadow Lass is his best friend in the Legion..with Monel out of the picture this pairing could be hot! . Earth man could be to Tyroc what Dr. Regulus is to SunBoy..lots of drama here!
So much potential..and everyone is in agreement that next to Chemical King, Tyroc has been seriously neglected! Go for it!
Posted by future king on :
I still maintain that the writers back then stopped using Tyroc because his powers were so, what's the word, omnipotent, in that he could do just about anything the writer at that time needed him to do (ie: make the ground malleable with a single scream). That kind of no bounderies power just wouldn't fly in today's cynical readership fandom.
If Tyroc is to come back full-time, or even semi full-time, then they (meaning Paul Levitz) needs to go back to the drawing board, if you'll excuse the pun, and re-define his powers ... minimum and maximum. Not "errr ... ok we'll have him do this or that with his scream this issue", just to get our heroes our of a bind in a hurry. That's how the problems started with this character in the beginning, I think, so this mentality wouldn't serve him any better today and he would stop being used.
There needs to be parameters set before he is used in his first story in the new series, and the readers need to know what to expect before he demonstrates his power.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by imskian78: . Very cool powers..like Black Canary on acid..the teleportation might have to not be used because of Gates..but this could be explained away to the phasing of the island.
I do like the idea of using the extradimensional / phasing nature of Marzal to rationalize power uses that we don't want to deal with any longer, if Tyroc gains more of a sonic / vibrational powerset and less of a 'I scream and random stuff happens' thing.
It's the same reason why mages tend to last for such short times on superteams. The ability to do anything the writer wants is just murder on the drama, and ends up becoming a problem later when another writer wants to use a plot element and has to deal with the fact that Mr. I Can Do Anything has already displayed the ability to overcome that plot point with a snap of his fingers, forcing the writer to come up with an excuse why Dr. Strange can't teleport people this week.
Posted by razsolo on :
I still maintain that Tyroc's power set is not unbalancing to a team that has at times had more than a couple of Daxamite-level characters, the White Witch (who is more often than not used in combat as deus ex machina), Element Lad and Quislet...Tyroc isn't any more unbalancing than Zatanna is to the Justice League, and she is a fan favourite.
Zatanna and Tyroc are good comparisons actually; both have a potentially inexhaustible bag of powers, but are both limited by the fact that they need to specifically vocalise their effects (for Zee it's talking backwards, for Tyroc it's a specific scream for a specific purpose), and both of them are also limited by the fact that if you rob them of their voices they are normal humans with no particular fighting skills above the average person.
I just honestly don't see why Tyroc's power is seen as being that much more difficult to include in any story setting than any of the other high-powered Legionnaires.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I agree razsolo. Paul just needs to keep with what was established originally and not what was tacked on by writers unfamiliar with the character -
quote:Originally posted at Wikipedia: Powers and abilities Tyroc's only superpower was his reality warping screams, which he could use to create dimensional portals, force fields, transmute objects, freeze objects, burn objects or simply destroy them. He could also teleport himself and at least one other person, although the exact limits of this ability were unknown. The effects and range of his powers were consistent when he first appeared, but later seemed to vary with the writer. Later writers often treated his power as simply being a "sonic scream" similar to that of Black Canary.
Tyroc could fly using either his own inherent powers (as seen in his first appearance before joining the Legion) or using his Legion flight ring.
Scream effects Among the screams in Tyroc's arsenal:
^ Thanks Gary. That's helpful. Though I love Tyroc my two big problems with him are
1. those screams are totally ridiculous to read
and
2. the effects of those screams seem to have no rhyme or reason.
I would completely do away with the dopey sound effects and just say he has a kind of sonic power that he can tap into by everything from screaming to whistling to humming and that lets him shatter/destroy/de-stabilise certain objects, instil vertigo and maybe create a force-field.
I would totally do away with the weather/plant/wind manipulation, telekinesis and transmutation powers. They're too much.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I couldn't disagree more. The screams help define him and for the most part why can't he have a variety of powers? It's only good for Kryptonians and Daxamites?
I don't think he should be just another Banshee/Black Canary. I think the powers are cool and identifying them with a certain scream helps the writer/readers from feeling like he can do whatever whenever he feels like it.
His weaknesses (kryptonite/lead) of course being that his voice/throat can be disabled like Billy Batson/Captain Marvel.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Hmm... I'd actually suggest making them even more random. Let it take quite a bit of practice to accurately produce the screams, so that he'd only have a few that he'd practiced and could do really well. Others he might try, but if he makes a mistake doing them, something completely unexpected might happen. Also, if he gets interrupted while screaming (for example, someone blasts him mid-scream), that can have unexpected effects.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: I agree razsolo. Paul just needs to keep with what was established originally and not what was tacked on by writers unfamiliar with the character -
quote:Originally posted at Wikipedia: Powers and abilities Tyroc's only superpower was his reality warping screams, which he could use to create dimensional portals, force fields, transmute objects, freeze objects, burn objects or simply destroy them. He could also teleport himself and at least one other person, although the exact limits of this ability were unknown. The effects and range of his powers were consistent when he first appeared, but later seemed to vary with the writer. Later writers often treated his power as simply being a "sonic scream" similar to that of Black Canary.
Tyroc could fly using either his own inherent powers (as seen in his first appearance before joining the Legion) or using his Legion flight ring.
Scream effects Among the screams in Tyroc's arsenal:
Jasmine had the same problem with her quantum energy powers, poorly defined and/or too powerful.
As far as that power list, I'd remove most of them as not being sound/sonic related and confusing/unneeded. Personally, I would chose a power set something like this: EEYYAAAHH! - pyrokinesis (heat as well as fire) ARRRRHHHH! - explosions (These two are related and friction based.) ZZZRRRUUGGHH! - telekinesis (This one only as sound might create sliding, tipping over/back, bursts away in one direction or another. It can be used to move air/water/earth in 'waves', too, with varying degrees of success and difficulty. Solids=hard, gases=easy.) CCCIIIRRR! - vertigo (Inner ear manipulation.) RRRYYYY! - wind manipulation (As explosions and 'bursts' cause a reaction in the air.) AHHRRRRRR! - force field (Air/water vibration most effective with solids, since light isn't effected by sound, for example.)
I would eliminate these as well as any dimensional warping, flying without a ring or freezing (unless sound can make atoms/molecules slow down: OYYUUUUUU! - teleportation UIUUIEEEE! - transmutation ARRREEEEG! - weather manipulation IRRRRWWWW! - plant manipulation.
I'd use those 4 sounds for various offensive weapons types of sound, ie.: piercing vibrating/knock off/knocking down/shaking apart/breaking apart percussion for added sound creating confusion percussion for knocking out.
On the Downside: Not functional in space. Not functional against energies. Sound muffling devices can work against his powers with varing degrees of success. Less effective the denser manipulated items or states of being, get.
Sketch Lad came up with a variation on the way Tyroc's sonic powers are delivered. A child of his (with Nura) manipulates sound with song, rather than shouts. That's a great idea, I think, and might add something to Tyroc's delivery. Say, his wind &/or vertigo abilities might be something his fine tunes with melodies.
I'd certainly change his look, too. For example:
And:
AND I'd put him with a sister, since they HATE their men choosing women not of color. I'd bring a Jasmine to this continuity or convert Quicksand or age Computo from the original Legionnaires. Although, Tasmia isn't a bad choice, at all.
[ June 06, 2010, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Candle ]
Posted by razsolo on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Hmm... I'd actually suggest making them even more random. Let it take quite a bit of practice to accurately produce the screams, so that he'd only have a few that he'd practiced and could do really well. Others he might try, but if he makes a mistake doing them, something completely unexpected might happen. Also, if he gets interrupted while screaming (for example, someone blasts him mid-scream), that can have unexpected effects.
I like this!
I do personally think that the individual sound-effect per scream is a bit of a dated concept, but it does help establish individual effects. And it's not really any sillier than half the incantations magic users in comics use.
I don't remember who it was, but someone here mentioned an idea about Tyroc's power actually harnessing superstring vibrations, which is why he can do so much reality-alteration type stuff. I really like this idea as well, and it's a way of grounding his powers in some kind of pseudo-science while still letting them be as wacky as all get-out..
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I believe I suggested the superstring idea!
I actually see Tyroc as much closer to the magic-user-with-incantations model than a generic Banshee/Black Canary sound character. As I see it, his primary ability is "reality-warping", and the screams are just his particular way of activating his power.
Giving him Black Canary-style power would be kind of like replacing Imra's powers with super-head-touching or something.
Posted by Candle on :
I think the string vibrations were Set? Or EDE.
The writer would need a thorogh grouding in string theory, though. I don't think it's magical or bends reality or stuff like that (I DON'T have that knowledge set, myself.) That's on a cosmic power level, too.
I think that would make him way too powerful, maybe.
And the only one who could make shouts old hat would be Black Bolt and he's never had various yells, has he? Who else is there? Not Black Canary, really, she just has one, doesn't she?
Anyway, I don't know the others if there are any. sigh
But, until I read the wikipedia, I didn't know Tyroc actually HAD different shouts that did different things! Posted by Candle on :
Yes, Banshee, DC's and Marvel's.
Well, if you prefer reality bending, that's what the Scarlet Witch does, as well as the before mentioned Dr. Strange/Dr. Fate.
I just have never seen Tyroc that way. He just seems more primal.
Posted by Blacula on :
But if we allow Troy to retain all those powers then we may as well just change his name to Super Deux Ex Machina Man. He'd be like a walking version of the Miracle Machine - able to do anything that any writer wanted him to do at any given moment.
And characters like that are enormously difficult to write, especially on teams. Look at how they had to limit Zatanna's power to non-organic materials when she was on the JLA. I'm positive that's why Paul got rid of him all those years ago.
Now that some of you mention it though - the effects of his powers do make him much more of a spell-caster than a specifically vocal/aural powered guy.
Some of the effects of his screams make MUCH more sense if you consider them the result of a spell rather than just his scream.
But we already have a spell-caster on this team. And I prefer the Legionnaires not having duplicate powers. Or being too over-powered - which spell-casters tend to be.
And I love silly in my Legion but those screams are on another level.
Posted by Blacula on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: AND I'd put him with a sister, since they HATE their men choosing women not of color.
That's already a generalisation today. And one I hope wouldn't exist to the 31st century.
Plus, Troy needs to have the afro IMO!
Or at least anything but just a short shaved/#1 haircut which seems to be DC's 'go-to' look for every single one of their black male characters. Totally sick of their lack of creativity in that area. If Marvel can have given Bishop nearly every hairstyle under the sun then DC can give their black male characters more than ONE look.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: Or at least anything but just a short shaved/#1 haircut which seems to be DC's 'go-to' look for every single one of their black male characters.
So agree, there. They can throw in some *awesome* dreads or cornrow / tight braid styles, and they choose to go with the shiny dome or crewcut every time? Boring!
Posted by Candle on :
1. The black woman 'thing' is not really a generalization in our society. It's currently a MAJOR resentment that many, many black women voice. AND Troy comes from Marzal, an ALL black society that's incredibly isolated and hates outsiders. Marzal doesn't really LIVE in the 31st century.
2. How many black characters does DC have? Mr. Terrific, John Stewart, Cyborg, Starboy Prime, Steel, reboot's Gear are ones I can think of. You're right, they all have very short hair or are bald.
But, well, I HATE afros. Wonder Woman had a boyfriend who had dreads. They killed him, of course.
The dread look was on the Andromeda character and Atlantis (SG) also had someone with dreads. Beautiful men, both of them.
I don't mind dreads, I just think Tyroc wouldn't work well with them.
Maybe something like Jacques, only shorter. But, then they'd look alike.
The Legion has always kind of gone with the look of the day they were in, except maybe Forte. Almost everyone on TV or in the movies has short or shaved heads.
Maybe a Michael Jackson look?
We should get pictures of different hair styles and set up a poll. Come on, EDE (or Set or Blacula), you'd be good at that. I'll help, if you want.
There's a very short look, already. I'll add the dreadlock look and find a MJ shot or two. Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: The dread look was on the Andromeda character and Atlantis (SG) also had someone with dreads. Beautiful men, both of them. We should get pictures of different hair styles and set up a poll. Come on, EDE (or Set or Blacula), you'd be good at that.
I linked to some pictures of those exact two men in the above post, but I didn't find a picture of cornrows that worked for me.
I don't do polls. Too technical for me. I'm dictating my words to a trained marmoset, because I can't even work a computer!
Posted by Candle on :
Yes, I saw the pictures, I just sort of identified them so I could talk about them.
A marmoset, huh? Just don't let him take any fruit near the machine. They're SO messy!
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: 2. How many black characters does DC have? Mr. Terrific, John Stewart, Cyborg, Starboy Prime, Steel, reboot's Gear are ones I can think of. You're right, they all have very short hair or are bald.
Static is probably an exception to the hair thing, but I haven't looked at him lately.
Posted by Candle on :
Well, here's an idea:
Posted by Candle on :
This is another:
[ June 07, 2010, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Candle ]
Posted by Candle on :
How about:
Posted by Candle on :
Static had short dreads that kind of stuck out, right?
In the middle schools I've been in this last 3 years, I remember 1 long afro and a few dreads. The rest were just fairly short regular hair.
I don't know what kids/young people (to 25) would think of a comic with an afro haired character. They might like it as different. Or they might think it's lame. sigh
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
I'd pick a pretty close to the scalp cut for Tyroc, myself. Though I also would think a fairly modest afro would be cool.
I wish DC'd used Tyroc in the Supergirl/Silver Banshee storyline that ran while the Legionnaires were in the 21st century. Though I don't want Troy to be a copy of Marvel's Banshee, I do think connecting him to DC's line of banshees (is that the plural of banshee?) would have been very interesting. Not least because he's a male.
I've only ever read of celtic-based white women as banshees-- perhaps in different cultures, bashees might be male only, or gender neutral.
I kind of like the freaky syllables- but only if they're used consistently and have a definite number. The deus ex machina worry is a very good one, to my mind. I think I'd drop any power that's currently held by a Legionnaire and go for levitation, disorientation, force-blast, wind control, death-sensing (that's if he were connected to banshees) and one wild card ability that takes a lot out of him when used.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Michael Jackson alert! Now I have to go wash my eyes with soap!
I agree that Tyroc has tons of potential. I'm hoping we get to see that realized.
On the haircut, I don't want him to get a haircut like Kid Quantunm's haircut because that was already KQ's look. His cool haircut is one of the things that made him stand out for a character with a small amount of appearances.
Posted by future king on :
Let's change this thread to "Michael Jackson tribute"!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
That should be a ban-worthy offense!
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: I don't know what kids/young people (to 25) would think of a comic with an afro haired character. They might like it as different. Or they might think it's lame. sigh
DC may have that same lack of certainty, which is why we see so many short-haired/bald men.
Posted by razsolo on :
says; THE AFRO MUST STAY!
I love Tyroc's afro...and all DC black guys (with the notable exception of Static) really DO have the same shaved/clipped hair look. If Phantom Girl can get away with wearing bell-bottoms for decades after they went out of fashion, and Ultra Boy can wear those dopey little turret boot things, I don't see why a brother can't rock an awesome 'fro.
I am impartial as to what race Tyroc should be with in a relationship...he might even be one of the few established characters you could legitimately make gay without ruffling any feathers; from memory I don't think he's ever been linked with anyone at all romantically, has he?
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Afros aren't totally uncool nowadays anyway. Some younger black guys still rock an afro and can pull it off.
70's hair is kind of indie-cool/quirky these days.
It's 80's hair that is totally lame and needs another decade before the cooling off period is over.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by razsolo: more than a couple of Daxamite-level characters, the White Witch (who is more often than not used in combat as deus ex machina),
Saying that Tyroc is comparable to the White Witch is damning with faint praise. The White Witch has been used only marginally more than Tyroc and her powers are just as bad in terms of having completely arbitrary abilities.
Posted by Candle on :
Mysa has always, until the new Black Witch incarnation, been limited in her magical powers. She's had to have spells prepared ahead of time, with the ingrediants, potions and incantations ready. She could only use a few at any given time and she had to guess right which spells she would need.
I think that's extremely defined and limited.
I had just remembered James/Kid Quantum as having short dreads so I agree that we wouldn't want them on Tyroc, although I don't see how that would keep him from having LONG braids, especially if they were cornrowed and/or pulled back into a knot.
I just hate afros, I always have.
And Tinya hasn't had bellbottoms in what, 20+ years? Certainly not in pre Zero, when she switched to her outfit that she wore later in dotLEGION. She didn't wear bellbottoms in the reboot, either. Maybe in Prime, but that was Prime and not really worth mentioning (sorry, imo anyway).
I just hate the 60's/70's looks, period. ugh I don't want them to EVER come back.
I'd rather Tyroc went bald.
Actually, I think maybe something African tribes would work.
Sorry about Jackson, too, but he's had so many looks he's good for examples.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
As I've said, some ideas, no matter how bad, given proper direction can be good. Like our Mister Stewart.
Posted by razsolo on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Mysa has always, until the new Black Witch incarnation, been limited in her magical powers.
In theory, sure...up until the V4 Legion though when she was traumatised after her treatment by Mordru, I don't feel like that was ever a real limitation.
The only time her limits ever came up previously was when it was convenient for the story, otherwise she could pretty much magic anything out of her hat she needed to...
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by razsolo: The only time her limits ever came up previously was when it was convenient for the story, otherwise she could pretty much magic anything out of her hat she needed to...
Yeah, that's pretty much my problem with 'magic' characters in the comic books.
If you play a magic based character in a superhero RPG, you write up a series of spells, and go with it. Even playing Zachary Zatara, in a recent game, I wrote him up with primarily a transformation / object animation power.
The White Witch, in her very first appearance, says it took her *hours* to prepare a dramatic interplanetary range teleportation effect, and, not too long later, she's teleporting an entire Legion cruiser, with zero preparation, and complaining that it's hard. Hard? You said it took hours to teleport *yourself!*
Lightning Lad has the power to throw lightning. If he gets clever, he might be able to use it to lock up someone's muscles and paralyze them, or short out a control panel to open a door, or magnetize a metal object. And that's *cool,* when that sort of thing happens. (Granted, Garth hasn't exactly been much of an 'outside of the box' guy).
But magic-using characters are, too often, IMO, turned into plot devices.
Zatanna was introduced with the suggestion that her magical powers were mostly about animating and transforming unliving matter, like her father (and, later, her brother). Then it was said that she was best at manipulating elemental forces (air, earth, water, fire), changing her role on the team from 'not really Sargon the Sorcerer' to 'not really Crystal of the Inhumans.'
And then it was decided that the JLA had been mind-wiping villains for years, and, hey, Zatanna is a magic-user, so she must have been doing it, since magic can apparently do anything... (Despite it being arguably out of character for her, in addition to not what her powers were supposed to be all about!)
Now, I'm obviously totally biased about this sort of thing, since I've been playing D&D for three decades, and I'm used to magic having rules, even if they are 100% different than the 'rules' that govern science.
IMO, it's always a narrative failure when any character becomes a deus ex machina.
*Saying* the character has limitations, but then ignoring those limitations in later appearances, doesn't count.
As much as the idea of Dragonmage appeals to me, what little I've seen of him online suggests that he's 'incredibly powerful' and makes big explosions. Well whoopty-crapity-do. That's what we have Wildfire, Lightning Lad and Sun Boy for, isn't it?
A magic character, IMO, is best when it has specific 'spells' or tricks, such as the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak or the various stunts that Brother Voodoo used to perform. The more random 'whatever power the plot requires today' stuff gets pulled out of a magical character's hat, the more likely that character is going to get sidelined (like Mysa), depowered / killed (like Dr. Fate) or just flat out mis-characterized (Dr. Strange in the Avengers, suddenly unable to do any of the things he did casually as a Defender, because it would wreck Bendis' street-level plots designed to challenge people like Spiderman and Wolverine and Ronin and Echo and the rest of Team Ninja).
Taking this back to Tyroc (or Chemical King, or Kid Quantum 2, or other 'magic' characters with unspecified abilities), I'd rather see the character shortchanged initially by calling their power 'sonic powers,' and then, only in the hands of the actual Legion writers who know what they are doing, developed to allow 'quantum vibrational whatchamahoozie,' than have a situation like when the Rom the Spaceknight scribe had no freaking clue what Alpha Flight's powers were and had characters doing ridiculous things (Shaman flying, Aurora shooting wind blasts, etc.).
Calling Tyroc's powers, which might allow him to cause all sorts of freaky effects by manipulating vibrations and resonance frequencies (such as making things explode, freeze solid, burst into flames or shed light), a 'sonic scream' for the sake of simplicity might be a better choice, since Paul Levitz is not going to be the last person to use the Legion, and we've already seen how spectacularly a non-Legion-writing pro like Geoff Johns can mess things up...
Same with magic characters. Give a 'mage' a half dozen specific effects that she can use spells for, and then show her developing new tricks from time to time, in the same manner that Brainy can occasionally come up with a new gadget, rather than arbitrarily allow her to do anything the plot requires, even if she explicitly couldn't do that last week, and miraculously won't be able to do it three weeks hence, because it would wreck the plot...
Posted by Blacula on :
Good post Set. I'm in agreement.
Posted by Blacula on :
Tyroc fans! It's Tyroctober!
And Comics Alliance is spending the whole month talking about our favourite afro-having, elf-boot-wearing, ludicrous-screaming, mack-daddy super-hero!
We should fill up the comments with posts about Tryoc's boo, Saucy Jones!
Posted by Leather Wolf on :
While we celebrate, we might want to remember that Tyroc is alive and well in Legion Lost. I like how he's been written for the most part in this series.
Posted by Invisible Brainiac on :
Although I find the plotting in Legion Lost kinda meh, I do praise the Legionnaires' portrayals. I've warmed up considerably to Tyroc, Tellus, Yera and even Timber Wolf (different powers and origin aside).
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Invisible Brainiac: I've warmed up considerably to Tyroc, Tellus, Yera and even Timber Wolf (different powers and origin aside).
It's interesting that Timber Wolf, the so-called 'lone wolf' who's been rushing off on his own time and again, is the one member of the seven to have made a contact / friend among the 20th century earthers.
As for Tyroc, this week I want him to have this hair. Posted by Leather Wolf on :
Actually that need to have a buddy around is very consistent with Brin's character. Back in the Levitz run of the 1980's Blok filled that friendship need. Now in Legion Lost DeFalco has chosen Brin to latch on to Coz. Perhaps due to his loss of family as depicted in #0 origin story, Brin latches on to people he feels he can trust, or feels that he needs to so that he won't be a Lone Wolf any longer.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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![[AHHHH!!!!]](graemlins/scream.gif)
says; THE AFRO MUST STAY! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)