I was among those most willing to give the Threeboot a chance... I loved the first 3 issues, and I still like the book, but...
It doesn't thrill me. I'm not as excited to read each issue, as I was under DnA... even the late DnA issues still filled me with anticipation, even though I recognized the stories weren't as good anymore.
I can't attrribute my new ennui with the Gail Simone bore-parter, either... WaK started with a reasonably strong momentum, but lost it. Even tho #5 nicely recovered #4's fumble and the intro of Lemnos revived the story, I just can't get into it as much.
I look forward to reading back issues more than I do the current stories, and that's a damn shame.
Posted by Kid Prime on :
Jinkies!
Posted by Pov on :
You're dead to me, man.
Posted by Spellbinder on :
"Reboot was right"...
No good can come of this Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I think this is among the list of inappropriate topic titles.
Seriously, Sean, if you're still at least reading the book then Reboot isn't right. I think after we get through the latest fill in artists and they get the coloring under control , you may just eat these words.
[ July 18, 2005, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: you may just eat these words.
...with tomatoes, on wheels!
(Do we have a tomato with wheels smiley?)
Posted by Reboot on :
Well, now Kent won't be the first against the wall when the revolution comes
quote:Originally posted by Spellbinder: "Reboot was right"...
No good can come of this
You know, I was expecting Pov to come out with that line.
Think about it - Pov's words are coming off your fingertips. Can you really call that a good thing?
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: I think this is among the list of inappropriate topic titles.
My only problem with it is the tense
quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer:
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: you may just eat these words.
...with tomatoes, on wheels!
(Do we have a tomato with wheels smiley?)
I'm sure Gary will be scrambling to fit wheels to a virtual tomato forthwith
[ July 18, 2005, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Reboot ]
Posted by Spellbinder on :
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: You know, I was expecting Pov to come out with that line.
Think about it - Pov's words are coming off your fingertips. Can you really call that a good thing?
Pov has been a bad influence on me Posted by Semi Transparent Fellow on :
Kent Shakespeare! You're usually the one person I can always agree with. However, I now feel that I've entered an alternate reality. Most unsettling.
Posted by Vee on :
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Sorry but this is one thing on which 'boot is NOT right. The only thing, besides the awful coloring, that I see wrong with WaK is that DC is obviously not going to be collecting the new LSH into a TPB anymore than they did past incarnations. Unless they plan for a larger than normal trade.
I'm fully enjoying this new version and have just learned to let go of all that has come before. DnA would have killed the title off before the team reached their 50th anniversary. Now the LSH has fresh blood and a chance at being one of DCs biggest sellers as the team enters the second half of their century.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I'll admit the series has drug a little bit more than it should, but I think anyone who doesn't dig it more than the previous incarnation has forgotten just how bad the previous incarnation was.
Just a reminder:
Terrorform Zoe! Attack of the 50' Vi! Vi's Green Streak! Cub! Timber Wolverine! Alien Horde of the Week!
And that's just for starters.
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Blame the slow story on the impending Crisis. The Legion's time is already affected by whatever is going to happen so they have to tread slow until it can be revealed.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
And I'd certainly rather have a slow story than a series of sudden "plot twists" that seem to happen for no apparent reason. Need I mention... Cos's relationship with Jazmin?
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Crap! I can't stop!
Remember:
Hypertaxis! Jarth!
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Not Jarth! I had just gotten over that!
Posted by Jorg-EM on :
As a flip flopper I must comment. I see brightness but also lots of room for improvment. BUT the slowness is both a good and bad thing. Because while we (I) judge this there is much to be revealed.
It has already won me over I admit. And thankfully Kitson giving us clues every once in a while keeps me going. For instance a yet unseen member (except for boots) in #1 will be shown in #10. And it's not Violet it seems.
The question is asked why do I have to wait ten issues to see what is probably Wildfire and the first non Adventure era Legionnaire. Which also happens to be one of the most popular members ever on the Legion. I mean I understand waiting to introduce Blok but Wildfire (if it is Wildfire?).
With this slow pace they are asking new and old fans for patience. Patience is not one of the best things to ask a new audience. At the same time the creators are taking it slow IMO for a few reasons and I think tradepaperback friendly is just a small factor. I think the bigger factor they are taking it slow is because of caution. Waid is not going to launch the new Legion guns blazing and taking names. He's going to put the block together very carefully and more thought out possibly than last time he did it after Zero Hour.
I remember Giffen's v4 started really slow and I hated for about 8 issues then loved it after I read all 8 in a row.
Damned if you do damned if you don't I am sure the creators are thinking. The character interaction has been great but so far the plot has been long and complex and needs more spark.
Eat it Grandpa? These kids are as tame as a 1950s Boy Scout troop. Each time they try to show how revolutionary they are it seems forced. Brin Londo was a welcome change. But at this point as much as I hated the v4 Dev-Em with we need some PUNK in this title. Oh wait I forgot acting like a 1950s boy scout troop IS punk in this future...how boring for the kids today seeing the radical future be something out of their parents Wonder Years.
Terror Firma and the Science Police are cool though! heh.
Patience Jorge...patience I know. Waid is doing great interaction between the characters. The interaction feels like I am reading THE Legion not a reboot knockoff. The art has been amazing by Kitson. I will be patient cause I know little by little I will love this run just for the quality of work if anything.
But will the 13 year old new Legion reader be patient?
Posted by Kid Prime on :
I still say jinkies.
Posted by Caliente on :
I'm with Kid Prime.
Posted by wamu2 on :
quote:Originally posted by Jorg-EM: Damned if you do damned if you don't I am sure the creators are thinking. The character interaction has been great but so far the plot has been long and complex and needs more spark.
But will the 13 year old new Legion reader be patient?
well, I suppose Waid could have copied from the New Avengers and have the LSH band together to chase down escapees from the SP's maximum security prison. Posted by lil'rhino on :
Funny, when I first heard of the impending 'boot, I was anticipating Waid's scripting and dreading Kitson's art. Now that it's here, it's the art that's wowing me, not the stories. Oh, and I agree, these kids are FAR from rebellious. They're too NICE!
Posted by reservations on :
I still prefer reboot. This series is a good read, but it's not Legion
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
Let me check...
I still prefer Colossal Boy alive.
I still prefer Jan not being a dead lunatic.
I still prefer a Timberwolf that doesn't look like a rat.
Yep, I still prefer the threeboot. I too kept anticipating the later DnA issues, but was always disappointed with what came out. Now I am quite happy to see Waid and Kitson building a classic month by month.
Posted by MLLASH on :
quote:Originally posted by reservations: I still prefer reboot. This series is a good read, but it's not Legion
Well, if we're going to be totally honest, the reboot isn't the Legion either. That honor belongs soley to the PREboot.
But I'm digging the WaK era thus far.
Posted by Mekt Ranzz on :
quote:Originally posted by Lightning Lad: Not Jarth! I had just gotten over that!
common ground, fancy that.
Posted by reservations on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH:
quote:Originally posted by reservations: I still prefer reboot. This series is a good read, but it's not Legion
Well, if we're going to be totally honest, the reboot isn't the Legion either. That honor belongs soley to the PREboot.
But I'm digging the WaK era thus far.
Yes true. But at least it mostly stuck to the program. Garth until DNA came along was still Garth. As was Imra, Rokk, Triad, Brainy, Violet, Ayla etc.
There were a few changes but overall, really, not that many.
I feel nothing for the MaK era Legion. Who are these people? Why do I care? There's been no characterisation either.
Is there even Interlac in this world?
They threw out a lot of what makes the Legion great for me. Where as reboot, I feel, was just a different slant on things
Posted by Disaster Boy on :
wak is wak.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Sensor! The Bride of Mordru! Dark Circle Rising! Foundations! Wussy Ferro!
All gone!
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Teen Ghost Marriages! Missing Third Bodies that No One Bothers to Look For! Space Nuns!
All gone!
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
And, ooooooh, lest I forget
Acid Spit!
Gone!
Posted by Jorg-EM on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Missing Third Bodies that No One Bothers to Look For!
That one may not be gone. Well atleast Phase may not be gone. doh!
Posted by Invisible Brainiac on :
I respect that Kent and Reboot prefer the past series. I still miss the post-ZH Legion myself, especially Zoe, XS, Gates, and even Monstress, Kari and Jaz. But I am excited with the threeboot, and the pace doesn't bother me too much. I still liked the post-ZH Legion better, but I'm learning to live with the current one.
[ July 19, 2005, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Invisible Brainiac ]
Posted by Invisible Brainiac on :
Btw, I actually liked the Mordru story in the reboot. But I do agree re Foundations and Dark Circle Rising. And Terrorform Zoe!
Also:
Lori Morning! M'Onel getting taken out way too easily! (versus the Fatal Five on Tenazor-4; versus Mordru; versus Lord Pernisius, to name just a few. ) Panel-hogging characters who, unlike the current Cos and Brainy, don't serve a bigger purpose by hogging the panels! (Jaz, Jo and Imra were DnA's worst panel hogs, IMHO). Cub! Ra's al Ghul on LW and all the horrible inconsistencies and unresolved plot threads stemming from that. (Ra's took Terrorform Zoe out by tossing an exploding gun at her, when we've seen her survive in space unaided?? Star Boy and M'On being too slow to take out a bunch of mindless Ra's clones and allowing Ra's to escape after he'd inhabited a new clone body?? And Ra's deciding to stay on LW!?)
All gone!
Posted by Harbinger on :
I'm anticipating each episode more and more! By the end of the DNA run I was embarrassed to buy the as it seemed filled with big bright splash pages, nonsense unresolved plot twists, unrealistic character actions (Brainy kissing Lyle - what was that about? etc) and panel hogs who just didn't appeal to me (Jaz and Imra).
So this run isn't speedy gonzales, so what? This is the first time since the Five Year Gap stories that the Legion has made me think about what's happening - I think that by issue 12 we'll be happy at the depth of characters and foundations laid out of this new interpretation of the future as the big picture is laid out fully for us.
I say "more, more, more!!!" to it
But that's just my opinion.
Bxx
Posted by Cham55 on :
You all need to understand that the title of this thread is a truism ....
Reboot rightness is a part of being Scottish ... the one follows the other.
But this Scot actually is very enthusiastic about the new imagining of the Legion. But I'm old and find the pace of the series suits my mental processes ... it has more the feel of a novel.
[ July 19, 2005, 05:19 AM: Message edited by: Cham55 ]
Posted by Tromium on :
I enjoyed the first 7 issues of DnA's Legion relaunch waaaay more than the first 7 issues of WaK's reboot.
Waid seems to have forgotten that scintillating action, adventure and romance was the bedrock of the Legion's historical success. The travesty that was the TMK era is proof enough that socio-political themes do not constitute the right formula for this book. I really think they've started off on the left foot, especially with adults vs. kids premise. The idea of a Legion civil war is fine and dandy, but it should have been wrapped up in six issues rather than becoming one of the central threads of the series. I keep wondering when the "real" Legion stories will begin.
That said, it was Dan Didio's mandate to Waid to re-reboot the franchise, so there was probably *zero* chance of avoiding radical change, particularly in light of the universe-altering events to be wrought by Infinite Crisis. If it hadn't been rebooted by WaK, TPTB would have handed the job to another team. Judging by her tepid and pointless FNBR arc last year, a revamp done by Simone (who was briefly slated as writer before Waid stepped back in) could very well have sunk the ship. At least Waid is keeping it afloat.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I'm actually enjoying the threeboot very much.
And I liked lots of parts of the Reboot, although I felt a large portion of it was utter crap and things were done very wrong.
I like the Legion as is--but neither era can compare to the preboot
(Jeepers Eryk! 'Sneckie' is all you hadda say!)
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
And Pov and Cru-- Posted by legionadventureman on :
Okay, someone pointed out to me what PMS was (Peyer, McCraw and Stern) but what the frag is TMK????
Posted by Spellbinder on :
TomMaryKeith: The Bierbaums and Giffen, who were behind the Five Year Gap Legion, just prior to the initial reboot.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by Harbinger: By the end of the DNA run I was embarrassed to buy the as it seemed filled with big bright splash pages, nonsense unresolved plot twists, unrealistic character actions (Brainy kissing Lyle - what was that about? etc) and panel hogs who just didn't appeal to me (Jaz and Imra).
But... but... that's what made it cool! Right? Posted by jimgallagher on :
I like a lot of the 3boot, and I'm glad to be free of a lot of the crap from the last boot, as other have said, but the whole kids vs. adults theme really bugs me. The idea that adults are evil and a bunch of young kids who think they know everything but haven't lived long enough to know jack is trite and tired and just plain dumb.
And why is it that the UP supports the Legion? Isn't the UP's rule what the Legion is rebelling against? Why would the UP support them with the way Cosmic Boy keeps mouthing off to them and hanging up on them and disobeying direct orders from them anyway?
Posted by jimgallagher on :
P.S. Thank God Gail Simone isn't the writer on the 3boot. I thought her 4-part filler story was just plain awful.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
If the storyline were really a matter of the good kids versus the evil adults, I'd agree that it was particularly annoying. But I think Waid has done a good job of making it clear that this is only a misperception, and the fact there is such a pervasive misperception of that sort about the genuine import of the events among many of the protagonists adds a nice layer of complexity to the storyline. That said, I'll be much happier once the Legion begins to realize the adults aren't all that bad.
Posted by Harbinger on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
quote:Originally posted by Harbinger: By the end of the DNA run I was embarrassed to buy the as it seemed filled with big bright splash pages, nonsense unresolved plot twists, unrealistic character actions (Brainy kissing Lyle - what was that about? etc) and panel hogs who just didn't appeal to me (Jaz and Imra).
But... but... that's what made it cool! Right?
Can I plead the fifth there Eryk?
Jim, I think there's going to be a big reveal soon that will explain the inconsistencies we've seen so far - like the UP/Legion relationship and why the Legionnaires don't really seem to know each other? I assume an arch schemer like Lemnos who tampers with memories will be responsible but am waiting to find out.
Got to be said that Batista's art was lush though, I missed that once he'd finished his run.
Posted by Tamper Lad on :
And the corollary to EDE's point is at the same time the adults will realize that their kids aren't anarchists bent on destroying all the good things that they've provided.
[ July 19, 2005, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Tamper Lad ]
Posted by Pov on :
quote:Originally posted by Spellbinder: TomMaryKeith: The Bierbaums and Giffen, who were behind the Five Year Gap Legion, just prior to the initial reboot.
Or Too Much Killing... or was that Torture, Mutilate, Kill? Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I love it when my point's have corllaries! It makes me feel so Spinozistic!
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Tromium: I enjoyed the first 7 issues of DnA's Legion relaunch waaaay more than the first 7 issues of WaK's reboot.
Thank you; that sums it up better than I said previously.
I'm not saying I don't like WaK; just that it pales to DnA, at least in their heyday (Lost 1 to Legion 14-ish). To be fair, early WaK should be compared to early DnA; not late DnA.
Comparing the energy of LLost 1-7 vs WaK 1-7, DnA certainly hold the high ground.
EDE, mixing Archie in doesn't deflate the great things of the DnA era.
As a fan of TMK, I CAN appreciate taking the long way to build a story; and I concede by next year I may do another about-face. BUT right now; the thrill is gone... already... after only 1/2 a year.
DnA's magic drew me back to LSH fandom; if I were just coming back in, I doubt I'd be hanging around for the new book.
WaK are doing okay; I still like the book, but I'm not luvin it.
Posted by Rurouni KJS on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I'm not saying I don't like WaK; just that it pales to DnA, at least in their heyday (Lost 1 to Legion 14-ish). To be fair, early WaK should be compared to early DnA; not late DnA.
I agree with the first sentence totally; that stretch (apart from some of the weaker Legion Worlds stories) was right up there with the very best Legion runs EVER.
However, it's far more apt to compare WaK with late DnA, because the latter is the Legion we were stuck with. And I, for one, was rapidly growing to hate it. Comparing early DnA with the latter half of the series is like night and day in its quality.
I'm mostly loving Waid's take on the Legion, although it really is moving too slowly at this point. It's not as bad as Hudlin's Black Panther (now *there's* a far more apt candidate for Reboot's tomato analogy), but there's plenty of room for improvement.
Whereas the series started with a pair of strong "done-in-one" stories, lately it's been waffling between wanting to tell single-issue tales and the year-long meta-arc that Waid's been building to...#s 4 and esp. 6 are the main offenders in this regard. Perhaps it was just a bridging factor to what appears to be a more focused, classical arc story structure for the second half of year one.
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
The new Legion series thru the first seven issues has been like a big Penguin ... it looks pretty and you want it to fly, but it doesn't look like it will ever get off the ground.
The DC books that are currently outselling the Legion (and there are a few of them) are faster paced and each have a story satisfyingly contained within the issue. The extra pages in Legion should have allowed much more development than what we've seen so far. The background stories of Tinya, Triad, and introduction of Projectra and T-Wolf was too much, too soon and has dragged down the momentum. Aside from the side trips to Lallor, the outer rim, and last issue to Colu, the majority of the stories (200+ pages) have been focused around Legion HQ or in flashback origins. Let's see the universe and in real time!
Posted by SouthtownKid on :
I loved the DnA stuff (of course, I'm biased), from Legion of the Damned on through at least Legion 24, and I'm glad to see others enjoyed it as well. But I always thought they were working under the handicap of a half-hearted reboot, that in many ways was neither here nor there. The reboot didn't get as clean of a start as they deserved (renumbering so new readers could jump on), and I don't think any of the early reboot stuff lived up to the promise of the zero issues.
The Legion had a very proud and distinguished 25 year history, until Byrne, Carlin, et. all felt the need not only to reboot Superman, but jack with Superboy, undermining everything. They didn't even allow them to keep the pocket universe. It seems from that point, we had 20 YEARS of attempted patches, fixes, apologies, retcons, and whatnot. No wonder the Legion lost so much ground -- it was impossible for them to ever gain momentum because they were always trying to better fix or replace all they had lost. Even the reboot seemed (to me) unable to get completely out from under the shadow of trying to fix things.
The threeboot, to me, seeems finally like a real fresh start (assuming Infinite Crisis doesn't re-mire it in a bunch of new nonsense). I love it, I love the pace, and I am in no hurry to get anywhere...I'm just enjoing the new universe and rediscovering the characters.
Posted by reservations on :
I think say, after Dark Circle rising, reboot was great.
I think after that it lost editorial focus. DnA came along and stirred things up. Great. But again, lost focus.
Maybe thats what the Legion needs - a visionary.
That said, great to see the Superboy costume with the L logo.
Posted by Jorg-EM on :
quote:Originally posted by Tromium: I enjoyed the first 7 issues of DnA's Legion relaunch waaaay more than the first 7 issues of WaK's reboot.
Waid seems to have forgotten that scintillating action, adventure and romance was the bedrock of the Legion's historical success. The travesty that was the TMK era is proof enough that socio-political themes do not constitute the right formula for this book. I really think they've started off on the left foot, especially with adults vs. kids premise. The idea of a Legion civil war is fine and dandy, but it should have been wrapped up in six issues rather than becoming one of the central threads of the series. I keep wondering when the "real" Legion stories will begin.
That said, it was Dan Didio's mandate to Waid to re-reboot the franchise, so there was probably *zero* chance of avoiding radical change, particularly in light of the universe-altering events to be wrought by Infinite Crisis. If it hadn't been rebooted by WaK, TPTB would have handed the job to another team. Judging by her tepid and pointless FNBR arc last year, a revamp done by Simone (who was briefly slated as writer before Waid stepped back in) could very well have sunk the ship. At least Waid is keeping it afloat.
You got it Trom. As I've stated I'm a fan. I've accepted this current Legion. But starting on the wrong foot as you've said nails it on the head. Don't think the pace or kids vs. adults thing was the wisest decision.
The pace does remind me of the TMK run and that is a good thing in my eyes. It's a good story being slowy woven but my favorite issue is the Terror Firma issue. And the cover for #11. As you say needs a bit more action, romance, and adventure.
And I think they will get there. For all we know the pace may be slow because of that darn Infinity Crisis! Damn 21st century still affecting teh superior Legion of Super Heroes! Eat it Didio! Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I find the comparison of the first seven issues of this run to DnA's first seven issues to be somewhat problematic. Their first two stories, "Legon of the Damned" and "Widening Rifts" were all about deconstructing an existing Legion status quo, while Waid's have been about setting up a new status quo. It's not an easy comparison to make. Similarly, comparing Waid's first seven issues to "Legion Lost" seems problematic as well, since the latter was a series with a set number of issues, which partially masked the fact that it was relatively slow-paced and dwelt too much on items irrelevant to the main storyline.
If you compare Waid's new series to the early issues of the Legion, in which DnA are building up their own new status quo, however, I believe Waid blows DnA out of the water. Just flipping through #7, I find it incredibly cringe-worthy. There's a Bat-villain spouting out one of the most absurd plots in Legion history, couched in some of the worst pseudo-science ever. There's Ultra Boy, reduced to the point where he can't even understand simple English sentences. There's Kinetix changed into this creature that can't even formulate simple English sentences. There's giant Vi getting pummelled by a terrorform.
Ultimately, I suppose, it's just down to preferences, but, whatever issues I have with certain things in Waid's run, I find it incredibly pleasing in comparison to the previous series.
Posted by Jorg-EM on :
I gotta disagree EDE. I was very excited about the first 7 issues of the last series. First time I was excited about the Legion in over a decade. So for me atleast it was a hilight. And I don't see much of a difference between your UB comparison and this UB.
But I compare the first seven issues of this series to the v4 TMK series personally. Or "somehwere in between" which may be what they are going for??? Posted by Tromium on :
The other, unavoidable analogy is to the 1994 reboot, which Waid co-plotted and co-wrote the first year. Completely ignoring the 'Legionnaires' series, the first 7 months of the postboot LSH brought us the following developments:
- Brande assassination thwarted; Legion founded - About 15 additional Legionnaires inducted by the U.P. draft - The LSH battles Tangleweb and Mano - Kid Quantum I is killed - Live Wire is forced to resign; Workforce introduced - The Legion stops a prisoner riot on "Planet Hell" - First inklings of the Chu conspiracy and White Triangle threat - Budding romances/crushes: Garth/Imra; Jo/Tinya; Brainy/Laurel; Gim/Zoe
I concede that the WaK characterizations are largely superior (though less than half of the 3boot members are fully realized characters at this stage), and the 2boot artwork suffers badly in comparison to Barry's.
BUT, compare the meaty and action-filled 2boot stories that propelled the Legion inexorably towards their final and explosive clash with the White Triangle at the end of Year One to the meandering 3boot stories that promise to lead to insterstellar war by issue #12. Truth is, I can barely recall what's happening from month to month. Issue #5 was a satisfying classic adventure and the destruction of Orando in issue #6 was a pretty good show, too. But otherwise I'm so bored by the protracted exposition and build-up, and so frustrated by the undeveloped and distrustful relationships among team members, I'm already losing track.
I KNOW that Waid and Kitson are better storytellers than this, and that's what's bugging me most.
[ July 21, 2005, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: Tromium ]
Posted by Director Lad on :
By the time we got the the seventh issue of DnA's run on The Legion, I was dreading each issue. I'd only sorta liked Legion Lost (couldn't help feeling like it was an amped up redux of "A Cold and Lonely Corner of Hell") and had hated "Legion of the Damned." (I did enjoy Legion Worlds, but I realize now that it was because, for those six issues, DnA focused more on character than story and gave significant panel time to characters who hadn't been seen much in previous years.) When we got to The Legion, story became the tyrant of the book, cruelly oppressing characterization. For three years, the Legion went from one world-threatening crisis to the next with almost no break. Subplots piled up with no resolution in sight. And the main plotlines had endings so weak, I was left wondering why I was bothering.
Also, while Batista's art was a hugely refreshing change from Coipel's "dirty" style, I ultimately found his depictions of the Legionnaires rather babyish.
Waid and Kitson, by contrast, are producing a book that provides suspense, humor, character, story, and some of the best art to ever grace a Legion book. I know a lot of you have been dismayed by the colors, but I really enjoy the muted feel they give to the Legion's world. It seems like the creators' way of evoking the blandness of the world that the Legion finds itself in.
Anyway, long story short is that I'm loving the new series, far more than the initial post-Zero-Hour reboot stuff or the various DnA periods. And I know a ton of people who have started reading the Legion for the first time with this book. I think DC's got a big winner on their hands. Now they just need to keep promoting the hell out of it.
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
I too am enjoying the new series, and not just because it isn't working with the old continuity.
I will go ahead and give DnA Legion of the Damned and Legion Lost. Those had some decent characterization. But, by the time they started Legion, the narration by the characters was gone. All that was left was a shell of action that I found unconvincing by issue #3.
In contrast Waid is giving us a full team of individuals that have characteristics and do things outside of this or the next universe-altering battle. The richness of what Waid is doing far outweighs any need for action gratification that I have.
Sorry some of you aren't enjoying that as much as I.
Posted by Starbucks Kid on :
quote:In contrast Waid is giving us a full team of individuals that have characteristics and do things outside of this or the next universe-altering battle. The richness of what Waid is doing far outweighs any need for action gratification that I have.
I can very much identify with this statement.
Posted by Jorg-EM on :
I wonder if Identity Crisis may be a reason for the pacing.
Geoff John's was going to tell the origin of Power Girl but then it seemed the Legion rebooted and he had to wait.
So far IC isn't effecting the Legion at all they say. But Power Girl seems to be a part of IC and now the Legion.
Another thing about suspense. If it takes TOO long people lose interest. When I heard Geoff was going to "clean up" Power Girl's origin I couldn't wait...now I don't really care. Marvel's T-Bolts are the same...they set something up for so long...I don't care who the Swordsman is anymore.
I use these examples cause it's taking a long time to meet the legionnaires. I was SUPRISED we got Brin so early and I loved it. But Violet? Eh. Yeah she's a team member I hear. Her debut is going to be anti-climatic at this point methinks.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
I said it before, I'll say it again. Reboot was right.
There have been more duds than even half-successes in Threeboot so far.
And as EDE reminds us, DnA, despite some weaknesses, at least had some good ideas at their disposal, more than Waid has managed thus far.
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Just the title of this thread alone is a bannable offense.
Posted by EmeraldEmpress on :
I think The Reboot has good things, the new origin, Triad, Umbra, Saturn Girl and really bad moves like Sneackie, Jarth, Emerald Vi. In the current Threeboot I like the return of Projectra, Dream Girl, Sun Boy,Timber Wolf and even Supergil, but not all is good. The silly origin of Triplicate Girl, one world full of female clones can't exist forever, in 70 years all the women are old and must die. Too much changes in Imra, Tinya, Val, Star Boy. I'll wait a little more time.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Sensor! The Bride of Mordru! Dark Circle Rising! Foundations! Wussy Ferro!
All gone!
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Teen Ghost Marriages! Missing Third Bodies that No One Bothers to Look For! Space Nuns!
All gone!
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: And, ooooooh, lest I forget
Acid Spit!
Gone!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: I'll admit the series has drug a little bit more than it should, but I think anyone who doesn't dig it more than the previous incarnation has forgotten just how bad the previous incarnation was.
Just a reminder:
Terrorform Zoe! Attack of the 50' Vi! Vi's Green Streak! Cub! Timber Wolverine! Alien Horde of the Week!
And that's just for starters.
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Crap! I can't stop!
Remember:
Hypertaxis! Jarth!
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Ugh! I'd forgotten how bad the whole hypertaxis storyline was...
Posted by MLLASH on :
Unless # 16 shows me different, I'm thinking Reboot and Kent were right.
I submit that there was NOTHING about the postboot Legion that wasn't fixable. Bah! Eryk and I would have had it whipped into tip-top shape in three issues!
There would have been more heroines fighting crime in bikinis than you could shake an earthquake beast at!
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Jeepers! We've already managed to turn it around in MELatLSH:TS! Of course, we had to eliminate like 95% of the cast...
Posted by MLLASH on :
And little did we suspect that the little Athramite that was getting beaten up by a mob in LEGIONNAIRES ANNUAL # 2 would later join the post-whiteout Legion as Sensory Lad!
Posted by Reboot on :
Eryk - one question: are you trying to be the anti-me on this matter; basically vocally hating the postboot just to be the oppposite of me?
And Cobie, I'd have thought better of you than to repost all those lists
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I said it before, I'll say it again. Reboot was right.
There have been more duds than even half-successes in Threeboot so far.
And as EDE reminds us, DnA, despite some weaknesses, at least had some good ideas at their disposal, more than Waid has managed thus far.
Why, according to your post in the sales thread, are you buying two issues a month then? Over a year is too long to buy ONE issue a month on the hope that it'll magically get better, let alone two...
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
'Boot, I don't think either Eryk or myself are trying to be anti-you (and I didn't mean that at all by the lists). There was just so much wrong with the last reboot that I actually can see the point of having the threeboot.
Basically, whether threeboot or reboot, I'll support the Legion, though I may not love either 100%.
If only DnA were allowed to leave earlier and someone continued the reboot with fresh stories that attempted to fix the crap and move forward...
...Although I guess what I really want is the original Legion returned and their stories to continue to go on...
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Actually, I do want to say that I understand that you're angry that the Legion was rebooted again. I really don't blame you for that, because it was *your* Legion.
That's kinda how I feel about the original version too. I think we both (and almost all of us) got burned.
At this point in time, I for the life of me can't see anyway to make it right anymore without continuing on with this new Legion. Outside of DC publishing additional titles, which appears unlikely to ever happen in the next decade...
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
My vocal hatred of the postboot has absolutely nothing to do with you, 'Boot.
And it should be noted that I still believe, as I have said repeatedly, that the first year or so of postboot stories are some of the best Legion issues ever. But I believe strongly that it go extremely bad really quickly after that.
I actually wouldn't mind, for example, if they de-booted to Legionnaires Annual #2, and ignored everything that came after that.
[ March 11, 2006, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I agree about the first two years of the postboot.
I also think *some* of DnA's run was good:
'Legion of the Damned' - not bad 'Widening Rifts' - better 'Legion Lost #1-7' - meh 'Legion Lost #8-12' - excellent 'Legion Worlds' - excellent 'Legion #1 - 17' - very good after - not so good with each issue coming closer to 'awful'
final Gail Simone arc - great
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I think DnA were at their best when they were fixing the mistakes of their predecessors. I think in the end they introduced as many problems as they fixed, however. I think that there was a feeling that they would really pick the title back up, and that they had a grand vision of where to take it that would be something really fantastic, and it was incredibly disappointing that this vision largely fizzled.
Incidentally, this also makes me somewhat skeptical of WaK's supposed grand vision for the Legion.
Posted by Zeroman on :
The DnA Legion didn't start going bad until they did the one really stupid move. Shoving someone with the big S on there uniform into the team. And now it looks like they are going to try it again with probably the same results here in the threeboot. There was not one thing in it that could not have been smoothed over by a good writer. Look at how good Simones arc was and she used established continuuty with no problem. I think going the Waidboot was just a lazy move on DC's part, and it is not working out nearly as well as they thought it was going to. I pity whatever writer has to come in after Waid and work with what he has set up.
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Zeroman: The DnA Legion didn't start going bad until they did the one really stupid move. Shoving someone with the big S on there uniform into the team. And now it looks like they are going to try it again with probably the same results here in the threeboot.
I still wonder about that - before that point, they'd set up nearly everything they'd done, mostly in Legion Worlds, which they'd carried on doing in L25. Then, in L26, they drop nearly all that stuff - in particular, Mekt and the cadets, and focus on Superboy and Darkseid, both of which feel like editorial edicts DnA had no interest in - note how they completely write off the Darkseid vision as a feint in the previous arc, and Superboy is offically an Edict. I wonder what DnA had *actually* planned for Foundations....
Posted by MLLASH on :
I also find it irritating that we 3booted just as we were *finally* getting around to characters like Nightwind, Polar Boy, Blok, Kent Shakespeare and Infectious Lass in the form of the Legion cadets program.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I do feel cheated by having such characters introduced (plus an interesting new character in the form of the Persuader's daughter), only to have the rug pulled out from under us.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Not as cheated as I feel not getting to watch Graym grow up, mind you...
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: Eryk - one question: are you trying to be the anti-me on this matter; basically vocally hating the postboot just to be the oppposite of me?
And Cobie, I'd have thought better of you than to repost all those lists
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I said it before, I'll say it again. Reboot was right.
There have been more duds than even half-successes in Threeboot so far.
And as EDE reminds us, DnA, despite some weaknesses, at least had some good ideas at their disposal, more than Waid has managed thus far.
Why, according to your post in the sales thread, are you buying two issues a month then? Over a year is too long to buy ONE issue a month on the hope that it'll magically get better, let alone two...
To be honest, force of habit, and procrastination. I keep putting off dropping my extra copy in hopes that the book will turn around. I'm still giving it through the Supergirl arc.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I also find it irritating that we 3booted just as we were *finally* getting around to characters like Nightwind, Polar Boy, Blok, Kent Shakespeare and Infectious Lass in the form of the Legion cadets program.
Good point.
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
There is a simple, quick fix to all of this - Good Original Stories. Well conceived issues will make everything else forgotten, no matter which point in the Legion history the stories come from.
There has been a tendency for Legion writers in the past decade to rely on the Legion stories that came before. The result - re-writes and what-if stories of stuff we've already read, and the result is it just ain't as good as the original. The best Legion stories were from Bates, Levitz, the early Waid, and DnA, all which were ORIGINAL adventures. Since the end of the Levitz run we've had very little in the way of good new stories (except DnA) and little substantial added to the Legion mythos.
That's why there's the tendency to jump back and start over at the Adventure era point, where the solid foundation for the Legion was laid. The approach by TMK (which was just plain destructive) and McCraw and now Waid don't give other writers much to work with.
Fifteen issues (at 30 pages each!) into this new version, and most of it has been rewrite origins or rewrite characterizations - much of which now occurs thru a letter column?! These Legionnaires need to move forward and do something positive, and in much less time than 13 issues a pop.
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: Reboot was right. It's true
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
, you may just eat these words.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[XS]](graemlins/XS.gif)
![[Elastic Lad]](graemlins/ElasticLad.gif)
![[Lightning Lord - Post-Boot]](graemlins/LightningLord1.gif)
![[No]](graemlins/shake.gif)
)![[LOL]](graemlins/lol.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
or was that Torture, Mutilate, Kill? ![[Mad]](mad.gif)