This is topic Shooter gone @ 50, Bedard re-launching Legion?!?!?!? in forum Long Live the Legion! at Legion World.


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Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 
Lying in the Gutters

More San Diego creator talk tells me that the Jim Shooter’s "Legion Of Super Heroes" title ends with issue #50.

It will be replaced with a new Tony Bedard LSH project, and the Levitz/Giffen Legion project will also see publication.

I'm also told that the junior book "The Legion Of Super Heroes In The 31st Century," is also coming to an end with issue 20.

The future seems an uncertain place.

Link
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17578


And check this out.
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=217664

[ August 04, 2008, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Lone Wolf Legionnaire ]
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
I just posted on Lardy's Roundtable... heheh

Bad move for DC. Next time, they will bring Judd Winick and Conner Hawke to Legion, move them to the 21st Century and create characters like XS and the Snake Monstress!

I also posted my dissatisfaction at CBR if that is true.

[ August 04, 2008, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo ]
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
I guess DC just cannot accept that LSH is never going to be a top book and that constantly screwing around with the title only alienates the most loyal fans in comics. We are never going to recover the glory days of Levitz/Giffen, so why keep trying? As a fan, I don't see why I should commit to yet another reboot when it is likely to last only a few years, at most?

As for Bedard, I thought his issues on the threeboot were the worst of the series -- and I was not a fan of Waid's inability to develop characters that were three-dimensional. I'm not looking forward to him getting the keys to the kingdom.
 
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 
I sure hope DC doesn't screw this up again,or I might find myself not buying the Legion for the first time in thirty five years,enough is enough.

Restore the Pre-Crisis Legion continuity and characters,reintroduce the characters from 5YL and the Zero Hour reboot that don't have counterparts into that continuity as new characters keeping them as close to their original concepts as possible,and build upon that history,respect the characters and their fans,quit tearing it apart and rebooting it.
 
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:
I guess DC just cannot accept that LSH is never going to be a top book

That so many leaders of the industry grew up loving this, what is now an obscure little title, might be telling. Perhaps to them it is about more than just the bottom line?

If I were in their position I could think of a few reasons I would keep trying to publish this title, even if it wasn't at the top of the profit margin.

1) The old, it appealed to me when I was younger so it's good enough for the kids of today. Okay, that would be an outlandish reason to continue to publish but stranger things...

2) We can tell an important story with this setting that we cannot with the others available. I kind of see this as a reason that would most motivate an opinionated, creative type.

If I believe a thought is sound and important but I'm not having success communicating it, I'm going to continue to try and find a way to get my point over. Legion has generally been wrapped around moralities. This is fairly unique I think. There are a few, like Spectre whose existence is morality based but for the most part, the comics characters' job is just to be "super." Huge boobs help.


I think perhaps they have accepted that it's not going to be a "big seller," but perhaps they hope that with the right telling it can still be viable enough to be responsible to the stock holders without selling out the premise.
 
Posted by Titan Lad on :
 
I saw this earlier today. I've been enjoying Shooter's run up to this point, so it will be sad to see him go.

But I am very excited for the Levitz/Giffen project.
 
Posted by Exnihil on :
 
Not really a regular reader of "Lying in the Gutters," here, so let me defer to those who are. How accurate have you all found these green lighted stories to be in the past?

The reason I ask is that all the references I've seen to the "Shooter's departure" story (going back to at least Mid-May) have only ever cited Rich Johnston, and no other source. Don't title shake-ups of this sort tend to be a little more widely reported?
 
Posted by Titan Lad on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Exnihil:
Not really a regular reader of "Lying in the Gutters," here, so let me defer to those who are. How accurate have you all found these green lighted stories to be in the past?

The reason I ask is that all the references I've seen to the "Shooter's departure" story (going back to at least Mid-May) have only ever cited Rich Johnston, and no other source. Don't title shake-ups of this sort tend to be a little more widely reported?

I'm not sure. But he also stated that Brubaker would be leaving Uncanny X-Men shortly. Even though, Brubaker/Fraction (who have only written one issue as a team) have made it seem that they have long-term plans for the X-Men. So I can't be sure.

I don't frequently read his column, or post on his board. So I can't be sure.
 
Posted by Askanipsion on :
 
Time for "Four-boot"!

Geoff Johns was so quiet about everything involving Legion at the SDCC so I figured Legion would go to # 50 and then get re-started.
 
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
 
Is this the same Levitz/Giffen Legion project that Giffen publicly denied the existence of?
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Exnihil:
Not really a regular reader of "Lying in the Gutters," here, so let me defer to those who are. How accurate have you all found these green lighted stories to be in the past?

The reason I ask is that all the references I've seen to the "Shooter's departure" story (going back to at least Mid-May) have only ever cited Rich Johnston, and no other source. Don't title shake-ups of this sort tend to be a little more widely reported?

So far, Rich has only claimed "yellow" light for notes of Shooter's departure. This time, he went green, which is very frequently on the mark. And he is probably right, because:

1) DC is working the Action Legion like crazy right now. Not only it is the star of both Superman and Final Crisis, but there are 2 HC collections of Baxter material coming up soon, even though there wouldn't be any reason to do so EXCEPT because events prior to Superman and The Legion of Super-Heroes are set just before the Crisis.

2) Giffen and Levitz have hinted in SDCC that they would be working on something. Giffen was particularly vocal to whenever Paul wanted to do it, he would do it.

3) Tony Bedard has said (on the link provided above) he is working on a team book and kind of said that "while Shooter was on the book, he wouldn't take it". If he is gone... And apparently some people may have been happy with his very weak fill-in arch.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Tim Drake:
Is this the same Levitz/Giffen Legion project that Giffen publicly denied the existence of?

He denied there was one set firmly at that moment, but he also said Paul was less resistant this time. So, there might be something cooking in there.
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
Is this the same Rich Johnston that 3 weeks ago was saying Shooter was done, and then 2 weeks ago was saying he'd patched things up?


In any case...issue 50 equals 13 issues by Shooter and he promised a 16 issue arc...sounds about right.


The truth of the matter is, Shooter's run hasn't sold well(but then neither did Bedard's or W&K's on it's own merits)...but the Legion is getting down to the numbers and ranks to where they relaunch it(unless it's the Reboot Legion, and then they give it 2 books and publish it for 8 years). So I don't see a big deal about DC or Shooter both not wanting to continue it...

And besides...as evidenced on this forum, a lot of people don't really like Shooter.

What I am interested in seeing...is if Shooter gets any work after this at DC or elsewhere.


Where it becomes curious is with the Bedard news...I liked Tony's run...but this announcement does not live up to the buildup LO3W is setting Legion Fans up for.

It is very underwhelming, and I expect this will likely be immediately reflected in the sales numbers of what ever relaunch they do, it'll be right there @30k and slipping...unless of course it is the Action...


But I'm thinking maybe something happened and DC is not going to be able to go ahead with their Action plans...maybe the Superboy litigation has taken a step back.


Except then doesn't make sense, because then why relaunch the current title?

Wouldn't it then make sense to use L3W to boost the profile of the current tile...and keep it going? Instead of another relaunch?


Or maybe this is all a red herring...
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
I don't think it is red herring, Superboy, and you can feel it too. However, something came up now: Rich says a Tony Bedard PROJECT will come up after Shooter, but not a new monthly or Tony-as-a-new-writer sort of thing. Thus, might it be a Legion Worlds-style maxi-series in order to wrap things up with L3W? I really don't see viability in a monthly Tony Bedard Legion #1 at all. And I still think they are trying to find a spot in Johns schedule for him to grab the LSH.
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
I don't think it is red herring, Superboy, and you can feel it too. However, something came up now: Rich says a Tony Bedard PROJECT will come up after Shooter, but not a new monthly or Tony-as-a-new-writer sort of thing. Thus, might it be a Legion Worlds-style maxi-series in order to wrap things up with L3W? I really don't see viability in a monthly Tony Bedard Legion #1 at all. And I still think they are trying to find a spot in Johns schedule for him to grab the LSH.

I agree with all of that...but I am not ready to rule out Red Herring either because Didio did have fake covers printed up for Flash and posted to the internet to cover up his Flash plans.

Could be Tony closing up shop on the W&K...

The Legion it seems remains cursed.

You do make a valid point about Johns schedule though...I definitely think he wants to write the Legion though...I think he wants the challenge of seeing if he can make all Legion fans happy. That is probably the greatest challenge in all of comics. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by veryvery on :
 
ahhh i know what the tony bedard project is and it's not LSH. that's all i can say, it's driving me crazy 8____8 but i promised not to say! at the time i didn't think it would be hard to shut up @_____@!!!
 
Posted by Paul Newell on :
 
If that's the case, then maybe we're all thinking the wrong L.E.G.I.O.N.? [Smile]
 
Posted by veryvery on :
 
one other thing, wasn't he ALWAYS only scheduled for a certain amount of issues? like why are we surprised?
 
Posted by Vee on :
 
I believe he was originally scheduled for 16 issues. If the run ends at #50 I think that makes it 13 instead and will conclude with the Dec 08 issue, about the same time as Final Crisis concludes (and L3W also I think)

Sounds to me like someone is trying to coordinate something...
 
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
 
quote:
I sure hope DC doesn't screw this up again,or I might find myself not buying the Legion for the first time in thirty five years,enough is enough.

Restore the Pre-Crisis Legion continuity and characters,reintroduce the characters from 5YL and the Zero Hour reboot that don't have counterparts into that continuity as new characters keeping them as close to their original concepts as possible,and build upon that history,respect the characters and their fans,quit tearing it apart and rebooting it.

I couldn't agree with LWL more, this has to be the way forward.

Listening to Geoff Johns talking about how he wants to make the publuc love Legion characters - mentioning Dawnstar and XS by name, it sounds like this is what is happening. What's the point of making the public love characters that are about to be rebooted out of existence?

Who will write it and who will draw it are the real questions. Johns avoided answering questions on whether he was taking over, giving the impression that he was. Is FJM's run tied to JS's or will Francis continue? If not how about Scott Koblish after L3W?
 
Posted by veryvery on :
 
i really don't care which version of the legion it is, as long as its well written and there's a brainiac 5 in there. an invisible teen and dream girl would also be nice.

every legion had its pros and cons. i don't know why people are so anti-reboots. i like getting a new legion every now and then. there are like 50 different spiderman incarnations, who cares? it's still spiderman! it's still legion! i read some elseworlds two part miniseries thing the other day that was called superboys legion, it was totally different and still really fun! it's like listening to a remix, sometimes, the fast version with the drum and bass sounds A LOT BETTER than the original, because it's more modern. legion incorporated gay people, minorities, and feminism over the years, i so do NOT want to lose those things in favor of nostalgia. and if johns is heading it up, i think we'll get a mix of classic with modern know-how.

if we really kept to the old legion, it'd be saturn girl, lightning lad and cosmic boy showing up in a time bubble, jacking superboy in the face, making him cry and then going "OH A MISUNDERSTANDING. SEE YOU LATER, PAL." Then Star Boy would kill Kenz Nuhor and Superboy would suddenly think he could be a lawyer and do really embarrassing things.

i'm not really one of those people that craves older legion, actually, because i want the characters to be YOUNG. so i'm a little worried it'll be "legion of 50 year olds"... but even then, i really liked the action comics run and i'd still read it. BECAUSE IT WAS WELL WRITTEN. older garth utterly, yet accidentally, dissing batman-hand-shake was AMAZING.

Come on, at least READ it first before freaking out, guys.
 
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
As long as some version of the Action Legion survives FC/L3W, I'm happy.

If it is the main/only LSH book, all the better - but I'd prefer if Reboot and Threeboot tales can from time to time appear...a la Earyh 2 pre-Crisis.

I don't hate Shooter, and some of his recent stuff has been good, but even he can only do so much with a tepid foundation.
 
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
 
I would be disappointed to see Mr. Shooter leave the series, because I think the stories this past 6 months have made the Legion more interesting than it has been in decades.

Another reboot would be a disaster, as we would have the 'two-steps backward' routine Legion fans have experienced way too often now with a new writer implementing and constructing his/her 'vision'- convoluted re-origins and twisted re-telling of old characters and stories which never seem to be any better than the originals.

The Waid reboot never grabbed me, but Shooter has turned into something I would like to see continued. I would like to see Progression for a few years, not herky-jerky Elseworlds hopping or reboot yo-yo-ing.

I'm getting old and my patience isn't what it used to be...
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by veryvery:
i really don't care which version of the legion it is, as long as its well written and there's a brainiac 5 in there. an invisible teen and dream girl would also be nice.

every legion had its pros and cons. i don't know why people are so anti-reboots. i like getting a new legion every now and then. there are like 50 different spiderman incarnations, who cares? it's still spiderman! it's still legion! i read some elseworlds two part miniseries thing the other day that was called superboys legion, it was totally different and still really fun! it's like listening to a remix, sometimes, the fast version with the drum and bass sounds A LOT BETTER than the original, because it's more modern. legion incorporated gay people, minorities, and feminism over the years, i so do NOT want to lose those things in favor of nostalgia. and if johns is heading it up, i think we'll get a mix of classic with modern know-how.

My major quip is that "a bunch of colorful characters does not make the Legion" in my book. For me, the book was different because of its premises, who were all shattered by those reboots. For instance: there are no Subs, age means nothing anymore, characters maturity is non-existent, sci-fi tones were toned down to a minimum (except for Shooter now), death now is just like in every other book...

I really never asked for young Legion (that's, for me, the stuff for Elseworlds or Year One kind-of-books). I wanted the Legion who ran on its original premisses. The book had always been on the forefront (up to v4 #39, that is). When it became just another book, it had to be rebooted.
 
Posted by Atoning Unifex on :
 
Each new rebooting or retconning or restart kills a little more of my interest. I find it harder and harder to get attached to characters that I know probably aren't going to be around for more than a few years.

I think, more than anything else, DC needs to take a new approach with the Legion.

I think the Legion should be set up in "seasons". Get a creative team that's interested in the book and say "Hey, you've got twelve issues. Gimme your best story. It can be a twelve issue story, it can be three four issue stories, it can be twelve single issue stories, just give me a beginning, a middle and an end. And when you're done someone else is going to do the book for a year. Feel free to pitch for future years."

The ground rules are simple:
- No rebooting.
- No retconning.
- No recreating past stories.
-The editor will provide you a bible with a summary of previous events and a snapshot of where the main characters are at the end of the preceeding season. Move forward.

It puts a lot of responsibility on the editor, but it would stave off the fatigue that seems to set in with Legion writers.
 
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
I also agree with LWL! And with Atoning Unifex when it comes to editors!

I really hope we see Shooter back in the legion sandbox. Shooter and Francis writing a Legion Academy would rock.
 
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
 
I like the idea of Legion 'seasons'. It would make for a lot of possibilities for writers of various backgrounds (adventure, sci-fi, character-driven, dark, comedic) and would also be pre-packaged for Trade Paperbacks.

A full-time editor for the Legion is almost a necessity now anyway, keeping all the reboots straight and everything...
 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Don't know what to say about Shooter going out - again - but that it's sad because he made me care about the Threeboot characters in a way Mark Waid never managed to do it.

As for Bedard, I love his stuff over at good old Crossgen - his Negation was really a great read, good mixture of Superhero/SciFi - and though I was not overwhelmed by his recent guest stint, I firmly believe that he could build up a great storyline with whatever Legion he is given.

I certainly would prefer a classic Legion continuity ONGOING book done by Levitz/Giffen, but that in my eyes is wishful thinking... does Levitz even have a decent story left? He pretty much wrote the title for how long, a decade?

On the other hand, after years in the executive business, maybe he's hungry again... and he would give the book full presidential power...
 
Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
I've been thinking of the "seasons" approach to Legion for a while now. It's such a diverse cast, and most stories only give spotlight time to a handful of characters anyway. Think back to those old issues that are so well loved- how often did the entire cast get involved?

Come out with a series of minis for the LSH. You can cover any era you want, use whatever characters you feel interested in using. I think sustaining an ongoing would be tougher than selling a couple of focused minis a year. And, with less out there, fans will be more hungry to pick it up. Build up excitement for the characters again.

It worked for Birds of Prey... whatever happened to "Because You Demanded It"
 
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
 
Reboot, deboot, anyhoot, as long as the first page and first issue kicks and the new series holds to basic tenants of the past instead of just colorful characters given Legion names, oldtimers will board and they'll suffer for the group, changes made to their favorites.

Those first pages post World's convinces me. The boards were filled with concerns before that issue about what was about to be done to their comic but when Monel and Tharak battled their way down through the atmosphere I think there was a collective gasp of "cool."

It was the LONG (rather, I should say SLOW) and REPETITIVE arcs that chilled it as I recall. So avoid those too.

Anything but "safe" art will probably always be problematic I suppose.

Start us with a three month max arc of action, throw in clever dialogue, let the art do the characterization for a few issues and I think they'll get a fan base.

LLL
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
I don't like the seasons approach, but I think a Legends of Legion book would rock.
 
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Its deja vu all over again, for like the umpteeth time, squared and times five!
 
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
We're hitting Shadow and Doc Savage type numbers for new #1's!
 
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
 
[(1 + 1)*umpteenth]^2*5
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
[(1 + 1)*umpteenth]^2*5

Is that the Antilife Equation?
 
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:
Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
[(1 + 1)*umpteenth]^2*5

Is that the Antilife Equation?
... or Brainiac 5's Intelligence Quotient
 
Posted by STU on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
Bad move for DC. Next time, they will bring Judd Winick ... to Legion, ...

NoooOOOOooOOOooo!!!
 
Posted by Pov on :
 
STU, the Anti-Winick! Long may you reign!
 
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:
Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
[(1 + 1)*umpteenth]^2*5

Is that the Antilife Equation?
Only for Judd Winnick, apparently.
 
Posted by Klordny on :
 
Rich is sometimes wrong even after one of his green lights.

The thing I find most odd about this rumor is that this is like the 5th rumor he's posted about Shooter leaving the book, and in the last few months not a single other person has come forward with corroboration, not even to say that they overheard someone say something. Rich's sources so far have been the Bristol bar scene and the New York bar scene. Is this a case of "where there's smoke, there's fire" or "the boy who cried wolf"?

But putting that aside, let's assume that it's all correct. That would suggest to me a Shooter wrap-up with #50, a 6-8 issue miniseries by Bedard, and then v6 #1 by.... Johns maybe?

Immediately under that item, Rich also mentioned Johns talking Bart Allen with Francis Manapul for a while. Since we know Bart is going to be in L3W, maybe Bart will stay on in the Legion book that follows L3W, to be drawn by Manapul.

Finally, we were told that all three Legions would exist (as would the Multiverse) at the conclusion of L3W and Final Crisis, which means that no rebooting/debooting/unbooting would be required. The way I look at it is like the JSA in the 1970s, they only came out when it was time for the crossover with the JLA; they were on a different Earth but they never really went away.
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
Whatever momentum the Legion has will be killed by Bedard doing something with the 3boot and waiting 6-8 months for Johns to do something. It'll be like that LOTW never happened. Almost better if they don't do anything and just let the Legion go dormat until Johns can write it. Or until they give it to someone that they are willing to let do something meaningful with it.

I actually feel sorry Bedard because he is a pretty good writer, and he likes the Legion, but he's not really being given a chance to succeed the way DC is just giving clean up duty.

The thing is...I like Bedard, but I don't think he's Alan Moore or anything. And it generates zero excitement for him to do something with the Legion right now because he was just on the book a few months ago as a lame duck and he didn't get to do much. And if he's just doing some kind of place holding mini, he's not going to do much again.

It's not like the title is going to perform any better than Shooter is right now or Bedard did on his last run...or just because it's a new mini. Everyone knows nothing substantial is going ot happen...just like they know this going to happen right now during Shooter's run. IF DC isn't going to do anything meaningful with the book, IMO they should just kill it until they are ready to do something meaningful.

I think I will probably not buy this mini if this is what is going to happen. I'm sick of DC treading water...and taking advantage of the Legion fans loyal nature, while serving up crap.

It's almost like they have less respect for Legion fans than any other book...you get the feeling the only reason the LOTW Action Legion is happening is because Johns wanted to do something with the Legion....

[ August 06, 2008, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
 
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
 
quote:
Finally, we were told that all three Legions would exist (as would the Multiverse) at the conclusion of L3W and Final Crisis,
Just the opposite. Dan DiDio said there would be just one Legion after L3W. Presumably the Time Trapper will eradicate the other two universes/time lines or whatever without affecting the Multiverse.

Which Legion will be left? well imagine the conversation in 2006:

Geoff Johns: Dan, I want to bring back the classic Legion from the Levitz era. Let's spend the next two years re-introducing them into the DCU.
Dan DiDio: Cool
Geoff Johns: And we'll make them part of Superman's past again and feature them in Action Comics.
Dan DiDio: Great and to promote it we'll issue lots of TPBs, and hardcovers and get them on the cover of the San Diego Comic Con magazine.
Geoff Johns: Fantastic. And then to round it off we have a mini series where they meet the other versions of the Legion.
Dan DiDio: Oh yes! I can see the bucks flying in.
Geoff Johns: And then at the end of the mini I kill them off again.
Dan DiDio: Geoff you are a genius.

It isn't going to happen
 
Posted by Atoning Unifex on :
 
Maybe the Bedard project is the comic book version of a reality show where members of each of the three teams compete to see which version will be America's Next Top Legion....
 
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
 
How about this:

DC January 2009 solicitaions:
Legion of Super-Heroes #1. Written by Johns.
Legion of Super-Heroes:Year One #1 of 6. Written by Bedard.
 
Posted by Atoning Unifex on :
 
The only thing I admire about Waid's run is that he didn't go back and give us yet another retelling of the origin of the Legion. So I'm personally hoping no Year One kinda deal.
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Age Lad:
quote:
Finally, we were told that all three Legions would exist (as would the Multiverse) at the conclusion of L3W and Final Crisis,
Just the opposite. Dan DiDio said there would be just one Legion after L3W. Presumably the Time Trapper will eradicate the other two universes/time lines or whatever without affecting the Multiverse.

Which Legion will be left? well imagine the conversation in 2006:

Geoff Johns: Dan, I want to bring back the classic Legion from the Levitz era. Let's spend the next two years re-introducing them into the DCU.
Dan DiDio: Cool
Geoff Johns: And we'll make them part of Superman's past again and feature them in Action Comics.
Dan DiDio: Great and to promote it we'll issue lots of TPBs, and hardcovers and get them on the cover of the San Diego Comic Con magazine.
Geoff Johns: Fantastic. And then to round it off we have a mini series where they meet the other versions of the Legion.
Dan DiDio: Oh yes! I can see the bucks flying in.
Geoff Johns: And then at the end of the mini I kill them off again.
Dan DiDio: Geoff you are a genius.

It isn't going to happen

It is conflicting information isn't it?

LOL your story was funny but I don't think it's that bad. I think it's more a case of disogranization than cruelty.

The Action Legion sold nicely, it's numbers helped Action Comics and they were rock solid numbers ...DC would love to pull that off monthly, I think Johns would too, and I think Didio would too...it's just they don't use common sense or something and they take advantage of the Legion fanbase.

I mean this is a horrible idea if it's what DC is planning, a 3 boot mini or something coming off the LO3W. I actually wish Johnston would stop publishing Legion rumors...even if they are true. I want to hear good news...
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
If Bedard comes back I wonder if he'll bring Calero with him. That'd be good. I like Manapul but there was something about Calero's art that particularly appealed to me.
 
Posted by Lad Boy on :
 
Unfortunately for all both of us Calero legion fans, that's not too likely. Calero has a Darkman gig at Marvel. Maybe you should all come to the Baltimore Comic Con and ask the creators yourselves.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
DC January 2009 solicitaions:

Legion of Super-Heroes: Arena
 
Posted by Askanipsion on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
DC January 2009 solicitaions:

Legion of Super-Heroes: Arena

Where did you see this? I couldn't find it on any of the sites that post solicitations.
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
I think he's joking.
 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I HOPE he's joking...

... I know him - so I KNOW he's joking [Smile]
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Askanipsion:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
DC January 2009 solicitaions:

Legion of Super-Heroes: Arena

Where did you see this? I couldn't find it on any of the sites that post solicitations.
It was a joke, don't worry. I don't think DC would get THAT low... Or would it?
 
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
 
quote:
It was a joke, don't worry. I don't think DC would get THAT low... Or would it?

Let's wait and see what the storyline in L3W #5 is......
 
Posted by Askanipsion on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:
Originally posted by Askanipsion:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
DC January 2009 solicitaions:

Legion of Super-Heroes: Arena

Where did you see this? I couldn't find it on any of the sites that post solicitations.
It was a joke, don't worry. I don't think DC would get THAT low... Or would it?
Ugg my heart almost stopped when I read it.....whew

I figure they are just going to do what they did with Titans in the Titans/JLA team-up.

#1 issues sell....so it will be a new series I think after L3W.
 
Posted by Jerry on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lad Boy:
Unfortunately for all both of us Calero legion fans, that's not too likely. Calero has a Darkman gig at Marvel. Maybe you should all come to the Baltimore Comic Con and ask the creators yourselves.

I hope you are counting me as one of the both. If not, make it three.
 
Posted by veryvery on :
 
guys @_@ he's NOT doing LSH @___@
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by veryvery:
guys @_@ he's NOT doing LSH @___@

But is he doing something RELATED to LSH? ::wink::
 
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
 
Considering you got your info off Rich here, I take it with a pinch of salt. And LSHv5 concluding? Not very surprising. But Levitz/Giffen and not Johns and/or Perez? Give an old man what he wants, for the latter.

And I don't see how Lo3W can fiddle with the awkward time-space anomalies any better than LSHv4105, or Legionnaires 61, which had the title of "If I Could Turn Back Time". Eye...ronic!
 
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
 
quote:
And I don't see how Lo3W can fiddle with the awkward time-space anomalies any better than LSHv4105, or Legionnaires 61, which had the title of "If I Could Turn Back Time".
Geoff Johns + Time Trapper = solution

My guess is that the reboot/3boot will be from 'pocket universes' - not one of the 52 Earths - so the Trapper can wipe them out without affecting the multiverse. Geoff Johns has stated that the Superboy pocket universe is canon so adding two more doesn't seem a big deal for bad ol TT.
 
Posted by Anti-Matter Eater Lad on :
 
I have spent the better part of the past year reading every issue of the Legion including crossovers from 1948 to the present. I do prefer the original Legion but came to like some aspects of the first and second reboots. I didn't mind the most recent incarnation with Mark Waid at the helm but I never quite "got it" 100%. I enjoyed aspects of the Waid version but the overall arc never sucked me in totally. His story in the first reboot of Triplicate Girl was so awesome I thought his Legion should have been much much better because the guy can write. My preference would be to see the original Legion back. Whether that means telling stories that ocurred between previous issues like X-Men First Class or X-Men Lost Generation and I don't care if they had the adult Legion and picked up where the first universe ended. I think there were plenty of possibilities still left and many stories I wanted to see. Maybe they could retell the Giffen issues and make a more coherent telling with actual characterization as opposed to us always having to guess who the hell everyone was (if anyone remembers those issues). I never cared much for the first reboot until Daniel Abnett came along and breathed extra-ordianry life into a staley plotted book with uninteresting stories. I wouldn't mind letting Abnett finish his storyline. As far as Shooters return to the Legion I am amazed at how lackluster it is. With some minor exceptions the only thing I found interesting was Princess Projectras legal hassles (which is probably only there to the degree that it is because of Shooters own roller coaster carreer which I'm sure had plenty of legal B.S.) To that end Geoff Johns is a welcome addition to the list of writers that have worked on the book. I, like everyone else out there, am hoping for the best.
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
New CBR, interview with Johns on the Legion:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17650


Some interesting quotes from Johns about Shooter:


Johns closed by saying "Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds" won't tie in directly with Jim Shooter's "The Legion of Super-Heroes" but added "it's not directly tied in, but the characters and where Jim has them are. Jim Shooter's work on the Legion is a huge influence. He's one of the greatest comic writers in any generation, from his work at Valiant, Marvel and now [again] at DC."

Asked if he'd like to write a "Legion" ongoing one day, the always candid Johns said, "If the opportunity presented itself and it was the right time, we'll see. I love the Legion."
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Superboy:
New CBR, interview with Johns on the Legion:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17650


Some interesting quotes from Johns about Shooter:


Johns closed by saying "Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds" won't tie in directly with Jim Shooter's "The Legion of Super-Heroes" but added "it's not directly tied in, but the characters and where Jim has them are. Jim Shooter's work on the Legion is a huge influence. He's one of the greatest comic writers in any generation, from his work at Valiant, Marvel and now [again] at DC."

Asked if he'd like to write a "Legion" ongoing one day, the always candid Johns said, "If the opportunity presented itself and it was the right time, we'll see. I love the Legion."

Is he talking about CURRENT Shooter's work? He really seems to be talking about the past here... And, still, it doesn't answer anything. I still keep with my feeling to Johns coming to the book sooner or later.

By the way, there is a feeling that DCU will have something serious in 2009 right after Final Crisis. All books seem to be on hold at that time, if you can read between the lines...
 
Posted by kcekada on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Superboy:
Whatever momentum the Legion has will be killed by Bedard doing something with the 3boot and waiting 6-8 months for Johns to do something...

Almost better if they don't do anything and just let the Legion go dormat until Johns can write it. Or until they give it to someone that they are willing to let do something meaningful with it.


I agree. I think Bedard's an okay writer, but DC either to have the person on Legion who is going to move it forward. If that is Johns, they have to wait until his schedule allows it -- even if the means no Legion for a few months.

If they want something to fill in the space, have Bedard work on L.E.G.I.O.N. instead -- or maybe a historical look at the Legion.
 
Posted by kcekada on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chemical King:
I certainly would prefer a classic Legion continuity ONGOING book done by Levitz/Giffen, but that in my eyes is wishful thinking... does Levitz even have a decent story left? He pretty much wrote the title for how long, a decade?


While I'm a big fan of both of their runs, I don't think bringing either back long-term would work. Maybe for a one-issue special, but monthly? No!
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
I have two thoughts about the Waid/Shooter LSH. I never really minded the universe Waid devised. I liked the concept of underagers being prisoners of their parents, but Waid never really explained how the Legion "revolution" actually changed things. Other than a few confrontations between Legionnaires and adults in which the Legionnaires often came across as spoiled brats, it just seemed pretty innocuous. I think Waid could have taken that much farther by making the UP more sinister in its intentions toward underagers rather than a bunch of adults who seemed to go "oh, no, look at those annoying kids" over and over.

Where Waid really suffered is in failing to develop characters. He had some decent ideas, but the overriding focus on Cosmic Boy versus Braniac Five, followed by bringing in the Cheerleader from Krypton, left most of the Legionnaires as little more than shells who didn't grow much beyond their initial character types. What I loved about Shooter is that he immediately went to work trying to flesh out the characters that Waid had left him. While I don't love everything he's done (I hate feral Brin), there is significantly more depth to the characters now than there was when Shooter took over.

Further, I look at the run from 37 through 44 as largely an attempt to undo some of Waid's damage. Right now, I suspect we are where Shooter would have liked to start the series. We have a number of characters who have recognizable personalities and a Legion that, for the first time in the series, is not in a struggle with the UP and is financially independent. Shooter could not have started from this point because it would have been too divorced from what Waid left, so it took some issues to reach. I would have liked to see 12 or so issues from this point, since I think this is really where Shooter would have felt free to develop the universe he would have created independently. It's a shame it won't happen.
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:
Where Waid really suffered is in failing to develop characters.

I know that a lot of people hold this opinion, but I believe that the character work Waid did during his run is quite excellent, and superior to that of any other era of Legion comics. In particular I submit Dream Girl, Cosmic Boy, Invisible Kid, Light Lass, Triplicate Girl, Atom Girl and Chameleon as Legionnaires who were well-drawn.
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew E:
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:
Where Waid really suffered is in failing to develop characters.

I know that a lot of people hold this opinion, but I believe that the character work Waid did during his run is quite excellent, and superior to that of any other era of Legion comics. In particular I submit Dream Girl, Cosmic Boy, Invisible Kid, Light Lass, Triplicate Girl, Atom Girl and Chameleon as Legionnaires who were well-drawn.
I think he created interesting archetypes but did virtually nothing in giving those characters much depth. I'm also not sure I really agree with Dream Girl. She seemed pretty one note -- self-assured (which makes sense given her powers) and flirty. Cosmic Boy was autocratic and struggled with the divisions in the Legion. I got that. But it would have been nice to see something beyond that initial characterization. Did he have a softer side? How did he develop allies? I enjoyed the fact that Trips bodies had different personalities and I liked crazy Atom Girl, but beyond the superficial aspects of the characters, they never seemed particularly real.

By contrast, I've liked how Shooter has shown characters with a range of emotions. Imra, for instance, can be controlling and pushy, and unwilling to give an inch, but then she has a different side she shows when she's with Garth. Brin (and others) can be outraged about Imra's abuse of her powers when they are victims, but invite the same abuses when they are directed at others. Meanwhile, he can seem homicidal at one time or a bully toward Legionnaires whose powers he doesn't respect, but softens when he is with Jeckie. Even Lyle, who normally is pretty meek and brainy, can get angry enough to tell off Brin and Shady. Those type of behaviors seem far realistic, especially for the teens that the Legionnaires are supposed to be.
 
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
 
I agree with you, Reckless, about everything you articulated. Shooter has done a great job bringing along the Legion transition from Waid's reboot. I still hold out hope that Mr. Shooter will continue on for another year or longer.
 
Posted by Askanipsion on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:

I'm also not sure I really agree with Dream Girl. She seemed pretty one note -- self-assured (which makes sense given her powers) and flirty.

Waid's Dream Girl is why i started reading the Legion. I LOVED Waid's Dream Girl until she became a ghost.

[ August 11, 2008, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Askanipsion ]
 
Posted by Star Boy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Askanipsion:
Waid's Dream Girl is why i started reading the Legion. I LOVED Waid's Dream Girl until she became a ghost.

Waid's Star Boy is why I stopped reading the Legion. I loved DnA's Star Boy until he became a token.

(If they needed racial diversity, why didn't they just reboot Xs?)
 
Posted by Pete Ross on :
 
Confirmed: Legion of Super-Heroes ends with #50.

I met Jim Shooter yesterday at the Baltimore Comic-Con. And he confirmed that the title is ending.

He was very nice about it all. He understands how things work.

He did say he will stay active in comics, with some possibilities with Dark Horse and DC (non-Legion, apparently). He hasn't decided what to do yet. I pleaded with him that if there's any way he can do anything related to the Legion in the future to please do so; we like his stuff.

Geoff Johns said during the DC Nation panel that for the future of the Legion, read Legion of Three Worlds.

Shooter did say that Neal Adams volunteered to do the variant cover for #44 when he heard that Shooter was on the Legion. He wanted to help promote it since Shooter is a writer who "gets it".

He also signed my copies of Adventure 346, 353, 359, and 369; the last one (by Adams) which prompted the comment about the variant.
 
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 
I would love to have Jim Shooter on a Classic Legion book,I have no doubt with those characters Jim could make it one of DC's best sellers.
 
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
 
I don't think it is, really. The greatest challenge is realizing that the format that originally worked, a teen club that invited superboy to join...worked. When the group was counted down and out, something about that magical alchemy worked.

Then, they got away from that, and it didn't. And because of Crisis (the real one, not all the copies since) Superboy was removed again, and it went downhill.

Ya know, the more i think about it, the more i realize, Crisis was a great story, but it has become poor business.

Hmmm, gonna write something about this.
 
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
Rick is onto something; Superboy was a cornerstone, and part of the history. But Leviz/Giffden proved Legion could stand on its own and be a heavy-hitter as well.

I personally believe the 80s (and even 70s) Legion should have been palling around with a young Superman, not a Superboy, as both should have grown over the years.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
Rick is onto something; Superboy was a cornerstone, and part of the history. But Leviz/Giffden proved Legion could stand on its own and be a heavy-hitter as well.

I personally believe the 80s (and even 70s) Legion should have been palling around with a young Superman, not a Superboy, as both should have grown over the years.

I think the major problem was never the Crisis, but changing the premises of the book: characters matured, new characters would substitute old ones, chronology followed real time, adulthood was treated like adulthood - and it all ended when Keith left v4. From THEN on, it all went downhill.

What I don't understand is why Shooter is leaving at #50 if he could stick around for at least a couple of issues more.
 
Posted by Rurouni KJS on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:

I think the major problem was never the Crisis, but changing the premises of the book: characters matured, new characters would substitute old ones, chronology followed real time, adulthood was treated like adulthood - and it all ended when Keith left v4. From THEN on, it all went downhill.
[/QB]

I think Ricardo is exactly right about this. The real-time continuity, while novel, was a time bomb for the LSH. It went off in v4, which took the original LSH well beyond the point of no return. While v4 is what pulled me into the Legion, it couldn't sustain me, and after Giffen left is when I dropped it the first time. It was the young SW6 Legionnaires that REALLY made me a fan of the TRUE concept of the LSH and kept me coming back to the series over and over again.

This is why I'm still pretty set against bringing back the original Legion in their current mid-to-late-30s age. It'll always feel like a 20-year high school reunion; fun enough, but with sense that the glory days are long gone.
 
Posted by Tromium on :
 
So that’s it. Like DnA, Shooter gets the ax before finishing his story. But this time, no monthly relaunch in sight or even rumored to be in the making. With the demise of the cartoon series and the Johnny DC companion book, the Legion’s 50th anniversary has been turned into a funeral.

When Shooter is done with the Legion, so am I. There’s just no sense in fooling ourselves anymore. It doesn’t matter how well the LO3W miniseries sells, the Johnsboot bogus-original Legion hasn't got the legs to stand on its own for long. A couple of years of playing second fiddles to Superman (himself an anemic franchise DC can no longer pretend is its flagship property), followed by yet another and perhaps final descent into obscurity. I don’t want to be around to see it happen.

Long live the …. oh, forget it. The Legion is already dead.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rurouni KJS:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:

I think the major problem was never the Crisis, but changing the premises of the book: characters matured, new characters would substitute old ones, chronology followed real time, adulthood was treated like adulthood - and it all ended when Keith left v4. From THEN on, it all went downhill.

I think Ricardo is exactly right about this. The real-time continuity, while novel, was a time bomb for the LSH. It went off in v4, which took the original LSH well beyond the point of no return. While v4 is what pulled me into the Legion, it couldn't sustain me, and after Giffen left is when I dropped it the first time. It was the young SW6 Legionnaires that REALLY made me a fan of the TRUE concept of the LSH and kept me coming back to the series over and over again.

This is why I'm still pretty set against bringing back the original Legion in their current mid-to-late-30s age. It'll always feel like a 20-year high school reunion; fun enough, but with sense that the glory days are long gone. [/QB]

I think the SW6 concept would actually allow the book to really take off in two directions: a more mature sci-fi political book and a return to "super-hero"hood with SW6. Why DC screwed this up is beyond comprehension.

And Legion is strong enough to have new characters taking up the mantle from older members who would be resigning. Much like JSA does these days in a more coward manner.
 
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 
The Legion died a long time ago,for me it was when they published that God awful Pocket Universe Superboy story.
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
I think there are two different issues. The Legion had moved from teens into the 20s-30s before the Levitz/Giffen run, so I don't think that was the problem. They also dealt with "serious" issues during the S/LSH, LSH, and Baxter issues. So age alone isn't the question.

Where I think the 5YL and then the subsequent runs is that they got rid of too many old characters and brought in too many new characters. One of the things about the Legion is that its membership was remarkably stable. Between the end of the Adventure run and Zero Hour, how many members did the Legion add? I think it's 10 new members in about 20 years. (Timber Wolf and Chemical King joined in 1968; 5YL began in 1989.) Just off the top of my mind, 5YL and Glorithverse added Laurel Gand, Celeste Rockfish, Devlin O'Ryan, Kent Shakespeare, and Kono within a few issues. Plus you had characters who were rendered nearly unrecognizable, like Furball. I think that was the main reason readers balked, not that the Legion was dealing with the aftermath of the 5YL period. I think there were a lot of dramatic opportunities to delve into what had happened during those 5 years and how it affected the Legion. A good writer could have developed that story extraordinarily well. However, I felt that was more of an afterthought in the series (why did it take so long to actually detail Venado Bay, for instance). Instead, it was like some members of the Legion I knew were lifted from their reality, placed into a new environment without much explanation, and a bunch of new characters were added and I was expected to care about them.

Trying to bring back the "early" legion through the SW6 didn't work, imo, because too much Legion history and character growth would have disappeared if they became the 'dominant' Legion. The lighter tone of Legionnaires also didn't help, particularly in the 80s-90s, when mature comics were dominating the market.
 
Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
My take is that I think there's room for expansion. I've alwayds thought the LSH was a strong enough concept that it could justify a couple of solo titles and maybe a team split.
Use the X-Franchise as a model. Marvel isn't afraid to do spin offs and one shots and minis that feature secondary characters. They use the central premise to try new peeps and at one point they glutted the market with all things X and made money like they were printing it.
DC has experimented with sci-fi versions of some of their flag ship characters but have never gone all the way to support new titles with them, for instance Batman Beyond was a great success for a wierd experiment with an old character. It's almost as if TPTB are afraid of success and would rather play it safe with a dwindling market rather than take a bold risk.
I'd buy an Ultra Boy series..probably..I'd also buy a Superboy in the 31st century comic or even a Legionnaires 3 with a rotating cast, a Justice League-31st Century title would attract new readers so why not?. DC's experiments with solo Legionnaire titles have always been half hearted and for some reason put future teens in the 20th century rather than use the Sci-Fi backdrop that has always been a Legion strength. I don't understand their failure to go with a major part of the Legion's universe that sets it apart from every other comic out there.

This is of course supposing that DC went out of it's way to get creators that produced top quality work rather than newbies trying to use the LSH make their mark on the industry. That particular process has worked out well a few times but it's also produced some real stinkers. I'd like to see the company really put the Legionnaires to work and really see what the future could bring.
 
Posted by Tromium on :
 
Over at Newsarama, DC Comics confirmed the LSH will end with #50, with a 30-page issue Shooter says wraps up most of the story (he could have gone to #54, if allowed.)

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/090829-LegionEnds.html

DC also confirmed the Legion comic book will go on indefinite hiatus, and there will be NO series relaunch after LO3W.

This is a sad day for ALL Legion fans, no matter which version you are rooting for.

[ September 29, 2008, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Tromium ]
 
Posted by rouge on :
 
I suspect there's a plan beyond "hiatus". No way Didio would let a successful (thus far) launch like LO3W go without a follow-up. As we get closer to the end of LO3W, I expect an announcement of some kind.

It is a bit of a kick in the head though, to think we're going from three Legion books to none in the space of a few months.
 
Posted by Tromium on :
 
I must warn you there is a *huge* spoiler in the article, so don't read if you don't want to be spoiled about the ending.

Click Here For A SpoilerProjectra is the "One Evil"

P.S. Stop kidding yourseelf, rouge. Didio was quite clear about it.
 
Posted by LardLad on :
 
I want the other four damn issues!!! [Mad]
 
Posted by doublechinner on :
 
As Howard Dean said,

YEEEEEEEAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!

No Legion = No comics at all for me, I think. I will probably keep buying the ones my six-year likes, but otherwise that's it.
 
Posted by Set on :
 
So Dan 'I hate Nightwing, let's kill him!' Didio is going to put the nail in the Legion coffin.

[sarcastic voice] That's a shock. [/sarcastic voice]

He's been a huge fan of killing off teen heroes altogether, so a whole team of them must be like an itchy rash that he's been yearning to scratch out of existence.

Happy 50th anniversary! <Blam.>

I swear, him and Joe 'I wanna kill Mary Jane, but the fans won't let me!' Quesada have some running competition for who can destroy the comic book medium first...
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rouge:
I suspect there's a plan beyond "hiatus".

I suspect there isn't.

Oh, I'm sure there'll be another Legion comic someday. After all:

1. DC has to publish comics about something.
2. There are people who want to buy Legion comics.
3. There are people who want to write and draw Legion comics.

But I wouldn't hold my breath for it.
 
Posted by rouge on :
 
While 25K (and dropping) isn't the healthiest levels for a book, it's also far above the cancellation level given other books that are hanging in there at a lower level. Even if it was cost of talent vs. profit, it would be easy to shuffle out Shooter for a lower costed scribe.

I still stand by my hunch that something's up, otherwise they'd run the title into the ground before discarding it.
 
Posted by Size Lad on :
 
I saw a reference that something will be happening to Action Comics in the near future. There would be a bit of symmetry to "Action Comics featuring Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes," considering what happened after the initial Adventure Comics run.
 
Posted by jimgallagher on :
 
That is really pathetic that they're doing this after all the hype about the 50th anniversary. DC sucks is about all I can say. I may have to boycott them and switch to Marvel.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
I agree with rouge that there is no way Legion should be cancelled when you have books selling way below 15k and being sustained by DC for any reason or other. Not only that, but from fan reaction at Newsarama, most people dropped the book because they saw L3W coming and ending the threeboot. And this was a HUGE mistake from DC. The main event of Legion is actually undoing the main title. What???
That said, I don't see a new series coming after Legion of 3 Worlds because it seems clear that Johns is not writing LSH in any capacity in the near future and I would say Dan Didio will do to the Legion his Aquaman approach: when someone gives him a good reason to try something, he will do it.
Funny though, was that Rich Johnston was right all the time - the book would end at #50, no relaunch would be made but there might be some specials coming out of that.
Hopefully, it will be a Levitz/Giffen mini or HC. Hell, I'd give my finger for a Shooter/Giffen Legion book.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jimgallagher:
That is really pathetic that they're doing this after all the hype about the 50th anniversary. DC sucks is about all I can say. I may have to boycott them and switch to Marvel.

Well, except for Iron Fist, most Marvel material these days is unreadable. And I even tried Annihilation. Sorry, but I simply can't have love for that. Maybe it is a good excuse to go back to used bins and search for cool material.
 
Posted by rouge on :
 
Well, if after all the smoke clears following FC and there's no Legion title, and the limiteds I'm reading all finish off, I'll only have four ongoing titles on my pull list. That hasn't happened in... well ... ever.
 
Posted by Mearl Dox on :
 
S-such a long time since I posted... [Embarrassed]

Finding out the Legion's being cancelled... I have such mixed feelings. I had kind of fallen out with the threeboot earlier on, but Shooter was getting me back into it again, and I wish we could see all he'd had planned (to 54) instead of ending with the dramatic number of #50.

I don't think it'll stay quiet too long, despite the refusal to state any plans... but still, I'm sad.
 
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
 
I'm not so concerned about the fact that the current series is ending. I *know* there will be something else Legion related coming. Well, I *hope* another Legion series will be coming.

It is sort of like, "Happy Anniversary... now Die!" That sucks.

My gut reaction is that I fear missing whatever appearances come up. I rely on Legion World to not miss stuff, so I'll be here.
 
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
 
Fuck this. I expect there will be another new Legion title sooner or later, but as long as DC is not publishing a regular Legion comic, I will be boycotting DC.
 
Posted by Pariscub on :
 
Well, it appears that Rich Johnston was right after all...

Not fussed as long as something comes back in a few months
 
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
 
This has been a very strange 50th anniversary for the Legion.

1) Cancellation of the animated series
2) Cancellation of the Legion in 31st Century comic book
3) Upcoming cancellation of LSH main title book at #50

The good news is we still have the Legion of 3 Worlds mini-series - hopefully it will turn out to be great. We also have the Legion appearing in an upcoming episode of "Smallville", so they aren't totally dead yet.

Still, I am ultimately very disappointed DC is willing to let Shooter and Manipul go so easily. The title has been quality stuff for the past year, and if it was given more support by the PTB, and not by schizophrenic Elseworlds versions of "Classic Legion" or "Adult Legion" or "Animated Version Legion" but specials and crossovers with the Shooter Legion, I think a lot of new fans would be less confused and have joined on. A new reboot with a new art team and their new "vision" will lose me completely. I'm getting too old for this.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kid Quislet:
This has been a very strange 50th anniversary for the Legion.

1) Cancellation of the animated series
2) Cancellation of the Legion in 31st Century comic book
3) Upcoming cancellation of LSH main title book at #50

The good news is we still have the Legion of 3 Worlds mini-series - hopefully it will turn out to be great. We also have the Legion appearing in an upcoming episode of "Smallville", so they aren't totally dead yet.


Except that L3W is a Superman story, according to Geoff Johns, and so it seems so far, and Smallville is also pulling the plug this season. And it seems only the 3 original members will be on it anyway.

quote:


Still, I am ultimately very disappointed DC is willing to let Shooter and Manipul go so easily. The title has been quality stuff for the past year, and if it was given more support by the PTB, and not by schizophrenic Elseworlds versions of "Classic Legion" or "Adult Legion" or "Animated Version Legion" but specials and crossovers with the Shooter Legion, I think a lot of new fans would be less confused and have joined on. A new reboot with a new art team and their new "vision" will lose me completely. I'm getting too old for this.

Amen to that.
 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Yeah well, I still think it's unneccessary nitpicking not to take this Lightning Saga Legion as close enough to the original to simply enjoy it. But that's the nitpickers problem, I really am having a ride with those books Johns is dishing out recently. Even got his whole JSA series from 1999 cause his writing really is convincing (Sinestro Corps anyone?).

But as for the Shooter Legion... I'm sad to see it go. As I stated recently, it has surpassed my expectations by far and I am liking it more than DnA meanwhile. It's sad that Shooter came on board so late, what a book this could've been had we not have to suffer through Waids ridiculous generation conflict babble.

As most of you, I am quite certain the Legion will return in less than half a year. Which version? Hopefully Levitz will have an idea (and hopefully, he will stop DiDio should he have another one of those "brilliant" ideas of his).

My current feelings about DC are quite negative as well. Reading Marvel makes me realize that the competition is running out of ideas as well. Skrulls again? D'uh...

My way is going to Ebay, buying whole series for little money (Valiant stuff, JSA, Marvels Exiles, even Malibu which are more fun than one might imagine) or getting more independent stuff like anything Alex Robinson is writing...

Or maybe more Vertigo, seeing that series like Fables are pure satisfaction... anyone put up "Greatest Hits #1" this month?
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
Even if it's nitpicking to wonder about the anachronisms in the Lo3W Legion, that still doesn't address my big problems. First, the Legionnaires are supporting case members to Superman. That's a big disappointment for me.

Second, I'm still waiting to see some character development in Johns' Legion beyond simply attaching labels to the characters (the truth, justice, American way for the founders, "burn out" for Sun Boy, etc.). Johns has written almost as many issues of the Legion in the past few years as Shooter, and there is no comparison in terms of character development. I feel I know the threeboot characters' personalities better than the Johns Legionnaires, even though I've been reading about Johns' Legionnaires for two decades. While you can say that Johns has the responsibility for handing complex plots (though the plot of Lightning Saga was pretty thin when you really think of it and the ending of Superman and the Legion was way too pat), Shooter had to clean up Waid's plot mess. Johns' Legion just seems to be coasting on nostalgia, like a nice visit to the Legion museum for reminiscing about old friends, but I haven't seen anything to suggest they will be interesting to read on an ongoing basis. So far, they have been ciphers (Lightning Saga) and reactive to the plot events (Superman and Legion). But you can't have a universe-threatening event in every issue. At some point, you need to delve into the characters, show who they are, and have them grow.
 
Posted by Askanipsion on :
 
The news doesn't come as a surprise but I am still very disappointed. I really enjoyed the last 2 issues and so far L3W has not impressed me.

With "Titans" being so awful to read/look at, "Teen Titans" getting rid of my favorite Teen Titans Rose and "Legion being cancelled....there is really no excitement in the DC universe for me.

Only thing I am looking forward to is "Terror Titans" with Rose.

At least I will see Dream Girl again until # 50. <sigh>
 
Posted by MLLASH on :
 
Worst 50th anniversary EVER.

But please do recall the past 2 times LSH either sank into obscurity or was cancelled...

the first time LSH came back with the name "Dave Cockrum" attached...

the second time, we got Legion Lost and Coipel evolving into a superstar right before our eyes, and then the exciting launch of THE LEGION...

If you want to count the skipped months that preceded the 5YL era, we can.

It may take a li'l bit, but I do see big things coming.

I'm almost positive we WILL see that Levitz/Giffen 1-shot or mini.

As previously mentioned, there are still plenty of pros who want to do LSH stories. Absence of a regular series will make the desire stronger.

BIG stuff. I believe it.
 
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
 
I don't see how sales warrant this cancellation at all. Aren't titles like JOHAH HEX, MANHUNTER, and several more selling at much less? I don't want any of those titles cancelled by any means, but why the disparity?

Why not work the title into a crossover with LOTW? I know there've been complaints about such linkage, but in this instance it'd only make sense- and with all the characters inherent in a meeting of three legions, the space'd be *welcome*. Wouldn't it?

Why does DC keep pulling the title when there's 3-4 issues left in the creators' quiver?

I don't get it.
 
Posted by Askanipsion on :
 
They cancel "Legion" but let the monstrosity called "Titans" continue. "Titans" has awful art and horrendous writing but yet it stays around.

I am really going to miss "Legion" as I can honestly say I like each and every Legion member on the team.

I could never say that about any other Legion lineup that I have ever read before.
 
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kid Quislet:
This has been a very strange 50th anniversary for the Legion.

1) Cancellation of the animated series
2) Cancellation of the Legion in 31st Century comic book
3) Upcoming cancellation of LSH main title book at #50

Agreed.

Maybe DC is trying to suprise us with an actual replacement book?
 
Posted by Rockhopper Lad on :
 
I expect that there will be another LSH book within a year. LSH has one of the most loyal cult followings in comicdom. That would be us, kids. [Wink]
 
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
 
Don't know if this is still accurate or not, but if anyone is interested:

dan.didio@dccomics.com
 
Posted by LardLad on :
 
Congratulations are in order, I guess, to all those here who never cared for Shooter's take on Threeboot. I know many of you who didn't were expecting Jim to somehow bring back the Silver Age instead of bringing the fresh forward-looking approach he did.

Again, congratulations. I look forward to hearing all of you complain about how whatever comes next is so wrong, too. Because I know that that segment of Legion fandom will never, ever be satisfied, no matter what approach is taken.

Look, I don't expect everyone to love Shooter's Threeboot run. I know it's not to everyone's taste. Nothing ever will be. But some of us did become invested in this version, just as others grew to love the reboot, TMK, etc. So before the men in black inevitably come out en masse with the I-tolja-so's and the barbs at Shooter, show some respect for the fans who are beyond disappointment about this.

After this debacle, I'm more convinced than ever that any version of the Legion DC puts out will never gain enough consistent fan support to be sustainable and therefore reboot-proof. If the next version centers on what Johns has done, it too will probably be successful until the novelty wears off and/or Johns or whomever leaves the book.

This is a Black Monday for the Legion. Part of me wishes DC would just bury it and let it rest in peace, rather than having us all go through this again every few years.
 
Posted by Reboot on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LardLad:
After this debacle, I'm more convinced than ever that any version of the Legion DC puts out will never gain enough consistent fan support to be sustainable and therefore reboot-proof.

Wasn't the "never reboot-proof again" obvious back in 2004? (And I'm serious about that).

Next version's due to last two years at this rate of decline. Blame Waid & Wacker.
 
Posted by LardLad on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Reboot:
Wasn't the "never reboot-proof again" obvious back in 2004? (And I'm serious about that).

I guess I was an optimist? [shrug]
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Arm Fall Off Boy:
Don't know if this is still accurate or not, but if anyone is interested:

dan.didio@dccomics.com

You know what? I organized a letter-writing campaign and an online petition to try to save LSH31C from the axe, but I'm not going to do anything of the kind for this series. Not because I don't want to save it, but because it can't be saved by an act of will on anyone's part.

DC just doesn't know what they're doing, that's all.

And I don't mean that they're no good at their jobs, I just mean that they don't know what to do with the Legion. I believe that they're stuck for ideas. I'm sure they'd love to have a Legion series all ready to go for next spring, but they wouldn't know what to put in it. They don't have a writer, they don't have an artist, they don't have a premise. They need a vision.

I think it could be quite a while before we see the next Legion comic. I could be wrong, of course, but if it's three years from now and we're still waiting, well... you heard it here first.
 
Posted by Phantom Girl on :
 
I guess I'm going to be optimistic about this. I have a feeling (which possibly is nothing more than misplaced hope) that DC has something big in line and they are not ready to announce it yet. I'm not surprised that this comic will end but I do think we will see something quickly down the road. Hope I'm write. If the Legion was doing so poorly by DC standards, they wouldn't have done the Legion of 3 Worlds and try and set things straight (which is what I think they have in mind to do). So I shall wait patiently. In the meantime I will enjoy 50 years of back issues.
 
Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tromium:
DC also confirmed the Legion comic book will go on indefinite hiatus, and there will be NO series relaunch after LO3W.

This is a sad day for ALL Legion fans, no matter which version you are rooting for.

I agree with probably everyone: it's one terrible golden anniversary. But it's actually assuaged my worst fear. That is, that the threeboot would be cancelled and, with slap-in-the-face speed, replaced by a neo-80s Legion that really isn't even what it claims to be. If they are letting the Legion rest, they're hopefully going to keep their options open, which means leaving all three Legions in a usable state at the end of L3W. The Legion probably isn't about to get more sprocked-up than it already is. Not right away, anyway. We'll all be left hanging. But our emotional investment will remain intact.

I don't know where DC should go from here. I don't think they can find out by watching fan reaction.

I'd already been losing interest in the threeboot. Waid threw a lot of stuff in the air and didn't develop much of it. I'd have liked to see that version of the Legion fleshed out. Shooter hasn't been following up on much of it, and has introduced inconsistencies. Most disturbing are the apprent changes in Element Lad's and Colossal Boy's powers - back to older versions, more or less. Aside from the major continuity issue, this shows that he isn't really writing the Legion he was handed. He's writing an alternate Silver Age Legion.
 
Posted by Reboot on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LardLad:
quote:
Originally posted by Reboot:
Wasn't the "never reboot-proof again" obvious back in 2004? (And I'm serious about that).

I guess I was an optimist? [shrug]
Well, everyone who was around here at that time knows how I feel about that whole imbroglio - but the simple fact is that all the previous retcons/softboots/reboots had been done because (DC felt, at least, that) they needed to, to match the continuity situation of the time and the increasingly desperate retcons that had been pulled to stabilise things (kind of like what's going on in the markets right now, now I think of it...), and the 1994 Reboot was a once and final acknowledgement that it couldn't be stabilised - there was no desire on anyone's part to say "X years had never happened", so they brought things to an ending.

Whereas the 2004 "threeboot", as it's come to be called, was done because Mark Waid *wanted* to do it, with no wider goal beyond "this is Mark Waid & Barry Kitson's vision". And the obvious next step is that when someone ELSE's "vision" comes along, they'll make any and all changes - up to and including another full reboot - necessary to actualise that (logically, after all, no-one else's vision will exactly match WanK's - or the place where the last person to use WanK's version left it, at least).

If I was to put money on what'll happen, I would still say that Johns' Legion will get a series some time in 2009 (whether written by Johns or not, as they're clearly DC's favoured version right now) - although I would say there would be more to be gained in the longer term by pulling a Thor and letting the property rest for at least two full years.

[ September 29, 2008, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Reboot ]
 
Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
 
Shooter's already been starting that.

I like how the Waid-Kitson concept was only loosely tied to the present. That might be the only way the Legion can work in the main DC universe.

There will be another Legion book within a year, I'm sure. But what will it be? What can it be? After the wild, chaotic expectations, hopes and antagonism of recent years (fuelled by L3W), what can DC do? I can't solve "the Legion Problem".
 
Posted by Reboot on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Triplicate Kid:
I like how [it was] only loosely tied to the present. That might be the only way the Legion can work in the main DC universe.

Speaking in the abstract, you're probably right in that the Legion shouldn't be tied to the present in any direct way - certainly not in any way that DC continuity can affect the series.

Speaking PRACTICALLY, however... crossovers = sales (unless the well is pre-emptively poisoned, as with the fiasco of Amazons Attack). Notice how WanK's Legion essentially reset its' sales pattern by adding the then-top-selling Supergirl (not only to the book, but to the title of the book). Without that, the book would have sunk below the 25k mark by the start of its' third year.

quote:
Originally posted by Triplicate Kid:
I can't solve "the Legion Problem".

At this point, it's essentially insolvable - through everything they've done, DC have fragmented the fanbase that *might* buy a Legion title beyond repair. They can probably pull sales in - in the short term - by relaunching with high-selling creators, but as soon as they leave (Witness the sales freefall of the aforementioned Supergirl title after Jeph Loeb left) and aren't replaced by a similarly A-list team (who will almost certainly make major changes, if not a full reboot, to satisfy their own "vision"), sales will plummet again.

The best the Legion can expect in the medium term is to pull an Immortal Iron Fist - starring a character who's never held a solid solo fanbase - and become a stable mid-tier title by aggressively targeting a specific niche (in more general fiction terms) and executing it well. Aiming for "Legion fans" is a lose-lose, since "Legion fans" all want different things.
 
Posted by veryvery on :
 
--activate a veryvery long post, don't worry, i made the important part bold--

ah, as you can guess, i really don't mind. issue 45 was so upsetting that i didn't even want to talk about it, i just set it down and tried not to think about it. if anyone else in the dc staff was reading the way i was then maybe that's why (if the sales didn't seem to be that bad)? i didn't like shooter's run and i was waiting for the end of it to see who took the reins next. for me, this ends my sadness 4 months early.

i didn't like where the book was going, and i think it's just a big, cumbersome, time-distorted monkey on dc's back. i can see why this book is very hard to sell. a giant cast, without the mainstream comprehension of Xmen, with a long and daunting past. it's really hard to get people into the legion, and i think dc tried VERY hard to salvage this book so give didio and the staff at dc some credit here :/. mark waid, i know most of you guys hate him or whatever, but he's a popular writer that many people respect, his name sells books. so they put this writer on the legion. not enough. they put SUPERGIRL in the book. not enough. i can see them looking at this and going "oh well, maybe because waid and bedard are too modern? they're not appealing to the older fans of the legion, we should appeal to them instead!" so they played time trapper reached BACK INTO TIME and got shooter, a writer from WAY WAY back in the day, that, despite my opinion of his work, is fairly well known and generally revered, AND he worked on the legion way way back in the day! AND paired him with a top-notch, super slick artist! it's not like they got third tier unknown people to work on the legion. their handling of the legion, to me, shows them trying a wide variety of things to try to make it stick, further evidenced by the legion's inclusion in Final Crisis. man i don't know WHAT you could do with the legion that would get people into the book beyond what they've tried already.

in an editorial position, what would you guys do? (and please, no answers like "well i wouldn't have done blahblah in the first place", unless you've built a time bubble, that's not feasible).

i think this rest period will be good for them to figure out what to do! but i don't think this is good-bye forever for the legion, not one bit! don't worry, guys! it'll come back! the smallville-legion episode will roughly coincide with the end of LO3W, right? i think legion'll get a boost of interest next year! i'm still looking forward to whatever comes next for the legion, and i'm positive that there's still something there. i also think LEGION might help out LSH! let's stay positive! i think the legion will come back better than before! 4-boot, lets go!!

also, i'll follow manapul's art wherever it goes, i'm waiting to hear what he's doing next. i really like his people but his legion run made me appreciate his INSANE attention to detail (check out some of those backgrounds some time, they're so intricate!!).

man, i'm surprised shooter just gave away the ending in that interview, yeah?! like... whoa, way to kill your own sales?!! i noticed that his future projects didn't involve dc...
 
Posted by veryvery on :
 
ahhh sorry, one more thing, francis just got back to me, he said he's got another thing lined up for DC next year! i'm so glad! lets all support him when it comes out, ok?!
 
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by veryvery:
man, i'm surprised shooter just gave away the ending in that interview, yeah?! like... whoa, way to kill your own sales?!! i noticed that his future projects didn't involve dc...

Jim Shooter has long been known as going against the flow. What better way to stick it to DC than to give away the ending of the story? I would like to have seen the reaction of TPTB when he gave it away.

I am not saying place all of the blame at Dan DiDio's feet--yes it does look like they tried a lot of things. However, in some of the interviews I've seen or read, just the cavalier attitude he seems to take in laughing off comments he makes that many people hang onto every word of, makes me think he is really out of touch with the fan base, and that he doesn't care to change that.
 
Posted by Tromium on :
 
Actually, that spoiler was a great relief to me because it implies the situation can be resolved relatively quickly, and possibly by one, single hero (I won't name her) instead of the whole team. So then Jim can spend the rest of the time covering the *real* important stuff -- the soap opera stuff.
 
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by veryvery:
ahhh sorry, one more thing, francis just got back to me, he said he's got another thing lined up for DC next year! i'm so glad! lets all support him when it comes out, ok?!

Hey veryvery, how is it that you have contacts with all these people at such a young age? Please share! I don't know you as well as some posters obviously do.
 
Posted by veryvery on :
 
AFOB: ahh! i don't! not really, i'll send you a note about this as it's off topic. and i'm very, very new here so no one knows me, actually!

but uh, my background makes me very sympathetic to didio and co i think, because i would not envy their job. their job is difficult to begin with, imagine if every day you have to go to work and every single thing you do will make a group of fans CRAZY mad at you! what people see as his dismissive approach, to me seems like he's trying to make things fun and casual, sort of like "take it easy" you know? and also, when someone says "oh, amazons attacks was horrible", and like, imagine you're friends with the people who made it and you know how hard they worked on it? it's easy to see why someone would defend things.

RAMBLE RAMBLE. i have faith they'll try again. i'm surprised, honestly, that they tried in the first place! to me, that says a lot. not many companies would touch something like the legion, you know?
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
DC Editorial screwed up big time, veryvery. And it is very clear DC lost it last year big time not only with Legion, but with almost EVERYTHING they did:

- The relaunch of Suicide Squad was simply "shot" by that awful moneygrabber Villains-on-a-Planet. That story virtually rendered SS as a "past story retconned!"
- What about Countdown???
- Then, you get Jim Starlin to do Death of The New Gods (which is in itself a good story). However, Countdown doesn't have anything to do with that and Final Crisis DENIES what went on that book!
- The whole relaunch of the Titans proves miserable: sales sank, artists rotate like hell's loose.
- What's the schedule for DC books these days? Huh?
- Wonder Woman relaunched once, twice, three times...
- Flash is back, is not, is so, is not...
- So now Hawkman is.. is not, is so, is not...

So Shooter is called to save Waid's fiasco with the threeboot. Then, the following month, DC announces Johns (DC's superstar of the month) will do something called Legion of 3 Worlds, tied to their biggest event and screaming THE OLD LEGION TEAM IS BACK. To make it worse, DC editorial never denies continuous gossips on the demise of the book and, whenever talking about the future of LSH, points out to Johns, as if Shooter and Manapul's never existed. Very good managing indeed.

There is no way to defend screw ups. And there is no way to defend them when mistakes are not being corrected, but simply getting more and more frequent. As someone said: why couldn't Shooter finish at #54 if Blue Beetle sells HALF of what LSH sells, even though LSH has to compete with L3W? They are killing a Top 100 Book for... well, let it rest for a while. Suuuure.

Sure, working at DC is tough, I simpatize with everybody who works hard to entertain us, but let's call it a mess when it is a mess. There is no excuse for keep pushing it after so long now.

And I am not so optimistic with the future of Legion. I can see some stupid minis coming up until they can get Johns' on the title, which will virtually be a Superman book. Hopefully, we will get Giffen/Levitz in the middle of it.

But if Titans is an example, we might have a Judd Winick Legion title, howzat?
 
Posted by Harbinger on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by doublechinner:
As Howard Dean said,

YEEEEEEEAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!

No Legion = No comics at all for me

Ditto. I feel very let down by this.
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by veryvery:
in an editorial position, what would you guys do?

I am assuming that I have some control over the outcome of Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds.

1. I would have FC:L3W establish the following things:
a) the Three Worlds are relatively open to each other; it's possible to have regular communication, travel, and trade from one universe to the next
b) the three Legions join to form a single Legion that has authority in all three worlds
c) Impulse (Bart Allen) and either Superboy-Prime or Kon-El join the Legion

2. I would impose the following requirement: a story arc can be as long as the writer likes, but each individual issue must tell a complete story

3. No dwelling on continuity problems or complications

4. The default is for each issue to have a small cast of Legionnaires. Once a year or so, we can have a big fight scene with dozens of Legionnaires fighting a giant menace, but with a cast this big, the only way to learn about these characters is to take them a few at a time

5. A Legion comic book should be definitely within the superhero genre, but should also contain as much science fiction as possible without taking away from the superheroosity of it

6. Don't be afraid to make the stories small-scale. Without some small-scale stories, the large-scale ones don't mean anything

7. Occasional appearances by Superman and Supergirl

8. New, interesting villains

9. Two top-flight regular artists, with compatible styles, who take turns. The Legion can take a long time to draw, so let's give each artist twice as long to finish his issue

10. Meticulous editorial attention. Lightning Lad is not from Trom, the Legion only needs to discover once that Dream Girl is still alive, and you don't need an extra space after every word in boldface

11. Themes of diversity, teamwork, heroism, hope and the future are to be emphasized

12. Suggested storyline for later in the run: a small team of Legionnaires secretly travels to the isolated pocket universe where 5YL continuity ended up, and tries to save the Earth from destruction

I suspect I could add to this if I kept at it long enough.
 
Posted by Tromium on :
 
My own prediction for another ongoing is 2011, earliest. DC doesn’t dare relaunch without Johns, whose plate is overflowing for the next two years with plans into 2012. Because their can be no successors or replacements, the risk of bollixing up his pseudo-original Legion is too great to entrust it to any other writer but its “Maker”.

DC’s floundering position in the marketplace also dictates a long rest period – they can’t afford to invest in anything but properties with high success potential. The Johnsboot Legion doesn’t qualify yet – they are merely supporting cast members who haven’t been tested on their own merits. Sales of LO3W are a weak indicator of Johnsboot self-sustainability. Take away the readers who buy to learn the ultimate fate of Superboy Prime, those who are buying for the resurrection of Bart Allen, completists who will purchase any and all Final Crisis tie-ins, and you cut the sales approximately in half. Remove Johns name from the credits, and you are left with a mini-series that would be lucky to sustain 30K.

And DC will be excruciatingly careful about any subsequent mini-series they decide to publish in the interim. They’ll turn to Johns or Levitz, but that’s about it, for fear of making an irreversible faux pas. For the foreseeable future, the Legion will join Aquaman, Hawkman, the Doom Patrol, the Metal Men, the Captain Marvel family and other injured or senile properties that fly in a holding pattern on the fringes of the DC Universe.

Plus, I strongly suspect the resolution of LO3W will enrage so many Legion fans, a long cooling off period will be absolutely necessary for survival. And I don’t mean enraged 3boots fans alone. We’re talking angry and disappointed reboot fans, TMK fans, post-Crisis fans, as well as disgusted fans of the *actual* original Legion (like myself) who have only disdain for John’s cardboard doppelgangers. Worst case, it could generate enough negative buzz to thwart the chances of a another relaunch altogether.

It’s beyond incredible how anyone who’s actually read and comprehended Didio’s statements can put a optimistic spin on it. The implosion of one version of the Legion spews radioactive waste on all the others. This news is not only about the end of the 3boot Legion, it’s about the near meltdown of the entire franchise. Nobody wins.

[ September 30, 2008, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Tromium ]
 
Posted by Pariscub on :
 
BTW, according to rumours, the Tony Bedard project is in fact L.E.G.I.O.N
 
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
 
I guess this means that the Time Trapper is really Dan Dido?
 
Posted by googoomuck on :
 
Was the original plan for LSH #50 & LO3W #5 to be released on the same month?
 
Posted by Mr. Kayak on :
 
i'm optimist about the future of the legion.

i think DC is trying to do what marvel did with thor. let the franchise sleep for a while, until they can relaunch it the way it deserves (if only DC had done the same with the flash, too!). i think with thor it was worth the wait.

i'm sure once johns' schedule will be less busy he will be the man behind the new legion book.
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew E:
[entire post]

I think those are very good points. But I want to go back to the original question, which is what would you do with the current situation. I don't think killing the current book was necessary.

I don't know what level of sales is needed to make a book profitably, so that is an obvious barrier to knowing what is possible. However, because DC is allowing a number of books to continue at the 20,000-level, I assume those books break even. So I'm going to assume that the current LSH book is not losing money.

So with that said, here is what I would do. I would make Lo3W into a real crossover. Johns' focus is and will be on the Action Legion. He has been quite clear about that. So the first thing I would do is make sure that the crossover would have promoted not just the Action Legion, but the characters from the existing book. (I'm stuck with Three Worlds, but if I had a choice, I would have left out the post-boot characters and focused on the Action Legion [since so many believe they are the "real" Legion] and the threeboot [because that is what the book is now].)

Have Shooter collaborate on the title. Let readers of the "event" learn about the characters that are in the ongoing series. They might like them. In their current incarnations, they seem to have more depth than the Johns' Legion.

End Lo3W with two books and one current DC 20th century character in each Legion. Put Superman in the Action Legion. Put Kon-el in the threeboot. (Prime might also work, but I'm not sure if the threeboot is consistent with his memories.) Use the 20th century character to introduce the Legionnaires, but do not make him the focus of the new book (ala Supergirl under Waid). The 20th century character is a member of the team, an should be treated accordingly. However, as the 20th century character integrates into the team, we can get his perspective on all these characters who may be somewhat unknown to readers.

Why two books? What DC fails to understand is that Legion fans are cult fans. We will buy two Legion books -- if they are geared to us. Legion in the 31st Century was a kid's book with very short stories, but the core Legion audience is much older. I don't think two books will hurt the current Legion sales, and a new Action or Superman/Legion book will sell at least in the same range, probably higher (certainly it will sell higher to start, but sales will only be sustained at higher levels if the writing and art are good). As for stories, both universes are full of story possibilities.

Keep Shooter/Manapul on Legion and give both Legions a shot. How could Shooter's run have gotten any traction when, just as he arrived, DC began shouting from the rooftops about Johns' Legion? Promote the two books so that fans know about them. Have them start with a "reintroduction" period so that new fans are not lost. I think a lot of readers were turned off by the dystopian universe and the underagers versus adults emphasis, but Shooter has largely undid those elements and I actually think the current story-telling style of the threeboot is the closest to "classic" Legion that we've had.

Keep the post-Lo3W Legions to their current rosters for at least a year. The threeboot currently has a reasonable number of characters -- the 20th C character, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl, Ultra Boy, Braniac Five, Invisible Kid, Chameleon, Timber Wolf, Light Lass, Star Boy, Princess Projectra, Phantom Girl, Shadow Lass, Element Lad, Atom Girl, Dream Girl (hopefully), and Colossal Boy (plus 1 or 2 more from the new tryouts). Don't bring back Cosmic Boy or Sun Boy for now. Don't bring back Terror Firma or the Wanderers or any of those large groups. They are too hard for new readers to follow. I would also keep Karate Kid and Triplicate Girl out for awhile. Fifteen characters or so is not too overwhelming, but any more would be difficult for new fans to follow. Focus on plots, but keep developing the characters. Don't just jump from one universe-threatening event to another.

For the Action Legion book, do the same thing. Superman, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl, Cosmic Boy, Brainiac Five, Colossal Boy, Night Girl, Shadow Lass, Timber Wolf, Lightning Lass, Polar Boy, Chameleon Girl, Invisible Kid, Blok, Ultra Boy, Phantom Girl, Mon-El, Night Girl, and Shrinking Violet all appeared in the first issue of Lo3W. Wildfire, Dawnstar, and Blok were all in the Action run, so I assume they are part of the continuity. That's already a nearly-overwhelming cast for new readers (perhaps it should even be pared down). So don't bring back E-Lad, Sensor Girl or Matter Eater Lad. And don't add anyone until the current team is well known. That includes Sensor Girl, Element Lad, and Dream Girl.

Critical to the success of this new book is developing the characters. Don't assume that readers know them. Spend some time introducing these characters to a new generation. Without annotations, Lo3W was probably nearly impossible for readers to follow in terms of understanding the characters and their powers. (I like the fact that both LSH and Lo3W are continuing to use the little boxes describing each character when they first appear in the story. While that may seem unnecessary for longtime readers, it helps immensely when someone picks up the book and wonders 'who's that'? Considering readers need to learn code name, real name, powers, and background for more than a dozen characters, those boxes should become standard for any Legion book.)

Develop the characters beyond archetypes. Waid's Legion failed, imo, because the characters were too one-note. Ultra Boy was stupid, Lightning Lad was hot-headed, Cosmic Boy was imperious, Braniac Five was smart but unemotional, Karate Kid was sage-like, etc. Shooter's great success was in restoring depth to the characters. They are teens, they make stupid decisions and mistakes, and they don't always act according to what you would assume from their archetype. At the same time, they sometimes surprise you (ala Jo in the last issue). I know find the threeboot characters interesting to read characterwise, and don't simply want to read the books out of a curiosity about how they will react to the threat of the month. This is my biggest fear with Johns' Legion. So far, his books have been all plot and little character (which event books typically are), but I don't think that can sustain a book on an ongoing basis.

For both books, the writers need to ensure that they balance the stories in terms of focus. Every writer has his or her favorite characters, but so do fans. The writers need to avoid focusing too heavily on just a few characters and leaving the others as afterthoughts.

I'm sure I can think of more, but the big thing is that I believe there is room in the DC Universe for the threeboot, especially if it continues to be well-written and character-focused as Shooter's run has been.
 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:
Even if it's nitpicking to wonder about the anachronisms in the Lo3W Legion, that still doesn't address my big problems. First, the Legionnaires are supporting case members to Superman. That's a big disappointment for me.

Second, I'm still waiting to see some character development in Johns' Legion beyond simply attaching labels to the characters (the truth, justice, American way for the founders, "burn out" for Sun Boy, etc.). Johns has written almost as many issues of the Legion in the past few years as Shooter, and there is no comparison in terms of character development. I feel I know the threeboot characters' personalities better than the Johns Legionnaires, even though I've been reading about Johns' Legionnaires for two decades. While you can say that Johns has the responsibility for handing complex plots (though the plot of Lightning Saga was pretty thin when you really think of it and the ending of Superman and the Legion was way too pat), Shooter had to clean up Waid's plot mess. Johns' Legion just seems to be coasting on nostalgia, like a nice visit to the Legion museum for reminiscing about old friends, but I haven't seen anything to suggest they will be interesting to read on an ongoing basis. So far, they have been ciphers (Lightning Saga) and reactive to the plot events (Superman and Legion). But you can't have a universe-threatening event in every issue. At some point, you need to delve into the characters, show who they are, and have them grow.

As I really am no big Superman fan, I still could enjoy Action Comics because the return of the para-classic Legion was spectacular and I did not care if Superman was so important in this return. Should the Legion continue to be standing in Supermans shadow in a possible new book, I will be sharing your concerns 100%.

As for characterization, well, anybody who could live through 30 issues of Mark Waids non-existant characterization might be tolerant as far as an obvious event book like Lightning Saga or Action Comics is going. Let's face it: Those storylines were mostly about the event of the Legion returning, the story was still solid as was the characterization. L3W also is about the event. An ongoing book should face the challenge of going in depths with the characters, and should they fail on this level, I will certainly be one of the first to criticize it.

Let this old/new version of the classics actually be returning, and then we'll see how it goes.

The thing which really makes me optimistic is the fate of the JSA. This book lay in the gutters for decades, hardly ever had an ongoing book, was in a total continuity slump and still, Robinson, Goyer and Johns managed to make it a constant top-seller and a very satisfactory read since 1999, one secret of its success certainly being the stability in the creative department. They managed to save an unsaveable franchize. If they really put their love and skills into it, they can save the Legion franchize as well...
 
Posted by Semi Transparent Fellow on :
 
Last night I sent Dan Didio a short email using the address provided in this thread. I wrote:


quote:
Dear Dan,

I've been reading Legion of Super Heroes since I was a kid. I'm 55 now, so that's a long time. It's the only comic book I read, so you can imagine my disappointment in hearing that the title is being cancelled. given that this is the 50th anniversary of LSH, it seems rather strange that DC would celebrate it with a return of the original (and to me, most beloved) Legion, just to end it all. I hope that DC will not let the Legion sit for long without a monthly book. Please reconsider your commitment to one of hte most important pieces of DC history.

Best regards,

Brent Seymour

I just received the following, pleasant reply from Dan Didio.

quote:
Sorry that this series is coming to an end but I see so much great product for the Legion in '09, I believe you will be excited and intrigued by what the new year has to offer. Legion Of Three Worlds will continue into January and this will clarify the status of all the Legion.

Legion has a long and storied history with the DC Universe and will continue to be a mainstay of our line.

Regards,

DD


 
Posted by Positive Man on :
 
Nice!
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
It is nice. Nice of him to answer at all, and certainly courteous, and what he said was just the sort of thing we want to hear.

Still... how should I put this...

An e-mail like that is basically worth its weight in gold.
 
Posted by Tromium on :
 
When it comes to the Legion, Didio's word is basically worth its weight in horse manure.

Yeah, I'm going to write him a letter, too.
 
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
It's a politician's answer: Tell them what they want to hear but nothing of substance.

Notice the vague wording: "great product" (this could mean anything from a new series to Legion buttons) . . . "clarify the status" (this could mean anything from whether or not the Legion continues to be published to how they interact with the rest of the DCU) . . . "continue to be a mainstay" (in what way? As a new series, as supporting characters, as a collection of reprints?).

I used to believe that any response from comics creators or editors was good, but, in the current political climate, I feel that such answers are only an attempt to manipulate fans.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tromium:
When it comes to the Legion, Didio's word is basically worth its weight in horse manure.

Yeah, I'm going to write him a letter, too.

If you do, ask him who was the genius who trampled Shooter by releasing L3W over his tenure and forgetting to include him - the main writer - on it.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
It's a politician's answer: Tell them what they want to hear but nothing of substance.

...
I used to believe that any response from comics creators or editors was good, but, in the current political climate, I feel that such answers are only an attempt to manipulate fans.

I wouldn't go that far, I think you pretty much nailed it first: it was a protocolar answer. I don't think Didio means badly of us (he surely loves comics and loves his job) but his tenure recently has been fractured with incompetence and mismanagement.
I would say now it is the time for DC to take risks. But they won't: they will insist on making mistakes.
And Marvel is no comparison to it: I simply don't like their product at all, except for very few franchises that are more DC oriented (like Daredevil).

Well, at least a new Hero Squared book will come out next year.
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tromium:
When it comes to the Legion, Didio's word is basically worth its weight in horse manure.

Yeah, I'm going to write him a letter, too.

If you do, ask him who was the genius who trampled Shooter by releasing L3W over his tenure and forgetting to include him - the main writer - on it.
No, when you write letters to people like that, representatives of large corporations, there's no point in getting hostile. It doesn't get you anywhere and it gives them a reason to dismiss your letter.

I believe that these are the principles to follow when writing such entities:
1. Be polite.
2. Be concise; if it's too long, it doesn't matter how good a letter it is, because they won't read it.
3. The smarter and more reasonable you sound, the more chances you have of getting someone to listen to you.
4. A paper letter carries more weight than an e-mail.
5. Explain, simply, what it is you want.
6. Explain how it's in their best interests.
7. Strength in numbers: a thousand letters is better than a hundred letters is better than one letter.
 
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
 
I sent DiDio an e-mail saying that I was going to boycott all of DC's comics until the Legion was being published again. He sent me the exact same reply he sent Semi Transparent Fellow, except that he added "I am always surprised to hear someone willing to drop the entire line on the basis of one series."
 
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
I'm not surprised that it was a prefabricated answer. I am surprised that he included a personal reply about the boycott.
 
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
I wouldn't go that far, I think you pretty much nailed it first: it was a protocolar answer. I don't think Didio means badly of us (he surely loves comics and loves his job) but his tenure recently has been fractured with incompetence and mismanagement.

Just to clarify: one can be manipulative without having bad feelings or intentions toward those who are being manipulated. Parents do it all the time. [Smile]
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew E:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tromium:
When it comes to the Legion, Didio's word is basically worth its weight in horse manure.

Yeah, I'm going to write him a letter, too.

If you do, ask him who was the genius who trampled Shooter by releasing L3W over his tenure and forgetting to include him - the main writer - on it.
No, when you write letters to people like that, representatives of large corporations, there's no point in getting hostile. It doesn't get you anywhere and it gives them a reason to dismiss your letter.

I believe that these are the principles to follow when writing such entities:
1. Be polite.
2. Be concise; if it's too long, it doesn't matter how good a letter it is, because they won't read it.
3. The smarter and more reasonable you sound, the more chances you have of getting someone to listen to you.
4. A paper letter carries more weight than an e-mail.
5. Explain, simply, what it is you want.
6. Explain how it's in their best interests.
7. Strength in numbers: a thousand letters is better than a hundred letters is better than one letter.

I was obviously ranting to you, but I would definitely touch such point. In fact, exact 17 years ago, I wrote a huge 3-page letter to Paul Levitz (probably in a passable English) and he actually wrote me back a PERSONAL letter (as in not pre-fabricated). It is lost somewhere around my house, but it is something I cherish to this day.
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
What I really think about DiDio's answer is that it's an accurate summary of his intentions. I believe that DC intends to do all kinds of great things with the Legion next year. But, as the expression goes, hope is not a plan.
 
Posted by googoomuck on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
I'm not surprised that it was a prefabricated answer. I am surprised that he included a personal reply about the boycott.

It was probably a prefabricated reply about the boycott.
 
Posted by veryvery on :
 
jesus people, i don't think being freakishly rude is the way to go. consider getting a really hostile, dickish email like that at your job. i do not envy his job. what other job do you get crazy emails from people that don't know you that are rude and filled with things you wouldn't say to someone that's actually kicked you in the face?

i think didio's answer is appropriate and more hope filled than i was expecting.

as for all the complaining that it's prefabricated, i'm sorry but what would you do if your email's being flooded with people all asking hte same question?! oh, i get it he's supposed to write 700 personal emails replying in detail to your demands. yeah, how much work would he actually get done. be practical, people. i think it shows that he READS these emails that he included a reply about the boycott and it didn't sound prefabricated to me, btw.

i totally agree with matthew's guidelines. do you know what you sound like when you say weird, crazy, uncalled for things? you sound like the homeless guy you avoid that talks about asteroids infesting the white house.
 
Posted by Semi Transparent Fellow on :
 
Well, I was pleased that he responded to my email, and so quickly. I think it's important to let DC know that we are disappointed the series is ending and worried about whether the Legion will continue at all. As veryvery said, you don't have to get into it with Didio, just let him know that you support the Legion and want it to continue. If they get enough of those letters and emails, it will make an impression. After all, DC is a business and needs to know it has a market for its product.
 
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I think Semi has it right. Good idea Brent, I think I'll take a page out of your book.
 
Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
I don't know if I can do this again. :tear:
DC's canceled the Legion before and we came together to keep the Legion love alive knowing that there was a new book in the works. This time we don't have even that.

DC's Legion boards were deleted but never the less fanfic exploded during the Legion-less months, the knowledge that a book was in the works was what kept me going. Expectations were high as we anticipated Legion Lost and Legion Worlds followed by The Legion.

Eventually that book was canceled but again we knew in advance that Waid and Kitson were preparing the next installment of the life of the LSH. Several of us from Legion World had the pleasure of seeing the creators in person and did our best to help ramp up the excitement. That was fun. As it turns out it was ultimately futile.

I guess I'm being a pessimist but I really don't know if I'm going to hang in there this time. I've been buying Legion stories since I learned how to read, lots of times it's been my only reason for buying comics at all and if it goes away I just might do the same, this really could be the end for me. Without a Legion title in the market I have very little reason to go to the comic shop at all.

Damn.
 
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
 
I emailed Didio too, just to say I was sorry the core book was ending with #50. Legion isn't the only book I buy, but, despite its ups and downs, it's certainly one of my favourites and the one I've read for the longest time.

*sigh* They'd never do it, but it could be great fun if DC would relinquish the rights to the Legion and let the fans go wild publishing their own versions. Chaos, but we might get some good stuff out of it.
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
For anyone who's in the I-don't-know-if-I-can-go-through-this-again mindset...

I know it's annoying. But, put it this way. Let's say there's a restaurant you like. Great food, friendly service, reasonable prices, the whole thing. Only problem is that they keep closing for renovations. After the fifth time of closing for renovations, would you say to yourself, "That's it. I'm never eating there again"?

I wouldn't. How would that help me? I'd be disappointed, but it would be cutting off my nose to spite my face not to eat there. Why shouldn't I enjoy the great food when it's available? What would be the benefit to me of not going there?
 
Posted by Patch Lad on :
 
As I have posted in another thread, this whole thing makes me madder the more I think about it.

I have seriously considered starting some kind of campaign to bring the original LSH back (the one that Johns is using now) or at the very least, get the Legion back for sure. Something like they did with Jericho and Firefly.

What do you guys think?
 
Posted by Tromium on :
 
I wrote a *real* letter to Didio rather than an email. A copy is being sent to Paul Levitz. It’s not vitriolic but it’s not supportive, either. It’s a termination notice, and will hopefully aid them in understanding the resounding negative effects the collapse of the Legion under Didio’s editorial stewardship will have on the franchise, its fans and creators, as well as its larger impact on the credibility of DC Comics and its other DCU comic book properties.

If I get a response, I’ll post it here.
 
Posted by Owl Lad on :
 
I emailed him too. Don't bother. He's not listening. He sends the same response no matter what you write to him.

I wrote:

Dear Mr. Didio,

I am writing to express my disappointment at the cancellation of my favourite comic book. Yes, I know it is just a comic book, but it is one that has held my rapt attention for over 25 years. I know that you have responded to other fans by having us believe that we "will be excited and intrigued by what the new year has to offer." Could you please offer us loyal fans more assurance than these words, ie. the continuation of the series at some time in the near future?

Thank you for your time...

He responded:

Sorry that this series is coming to an end but I see so much great product for the Legion in ’09, I believe you will be excited and intrigued by what the new year has to offer. Legion Of Three Worlds will continue into January and this will clarify the status of all the Legion.



Legion has a long and storied history with the DC Universe and will continue to be a mainstay of our line.



Regards,



DD


I'm not sure he even read my email because he may not have realized that I was quoting from the response he was going to send me anyway.

Dan Didio=unoriginal and insensitive
 
Posted by Set on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew E:
I know it's annoying. But, put it this way. Let's say there's a restaurant you like. Great food, friendly service, reasonable prices, the whole thing. Only problem is that they keep closing for renovations. After the fifth time of closing for renovations, would you say to yourself, "That's it. I'm never eating there again"?

My problem here is that some of the times it's closed down for renovations, it's come back with food that I don't like... After a couple years, it closed down again and started serving food more to my personal tastes, and gosh, it's really gotten good in the last year or so, but that's going away and who knows whether it will be good, so-so or just plain blech when it re-opens next time?

I've been reading Legion adventures for 30+ years, in various formats and guises, but I am by no means a compleatist and there are entire runs I avoided, only getting an issue now and again to remind myself why I wasn't getting it monthly.

It takes more than 'Legion of Super-Heroes' on the title to make me spend my money. It has to actually bear some resemblance to the Legion of Super-Heroes inside the book, too, which means (to me) young people, heroes, in a shiny amazing future (that has plenty of dark corners), not grumpy old people in a universe where everything is falling apart and it's like the last chapter of the Bible with plagues and worlds on fire and stuff.
 
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fat Cramer:
*sigh* They'd never do it, but it could be great fun if DC would relinquish the rights to the Legion and let the fans go wild publishing their own versions. Chaos, but we might get some good stuff out of it.

I LOVE this idea. It's obvious there are some very talented people on this board, and the situation could serve as inspiration for some creativity even with DC still in ownership of the Legion (keeping in mind copyright and trademark laws!)
 
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
 
I'll email him and get the auto-response. I don't mind. They *must* be at least counting the number of emails they get about this, if not personally responding.

Sorry FC, I love fanfic, but I'd rather keep it as that, not offer it up as a substitute for the series proper. Speaking of which, has everyone been to Bits and checked out the SUBPLOT thread? To quote FC, "some good stuff" is happening there!
 
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
 
Got the canned response, but as Sketchy says, they must be counting. So that's okay, I'm glad I wrote.
 
Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
OK, I'll shoot off an e-mail too. Maybe we ought to contact Legion creators as well, some of them have become good friends with some LW members, that might help just a little too. Mark Waid may not think highly of us (but I guarantee he knows who we are - I heard him give the web address in a speech in Dallas) though Barry Kitson has shared PMs and his time with a number of us here..that's just a "for instance".

[rant]
I wasn't trying to be a negative-nelly but I'm extremely disappointed that DC won't even try to let the book run for more than a few years at a time before canceling it and rebooting it again. It's tiring.

Part of the fun of collecting is the knowledge that some issues will eventually be rare and worth something more than you paid for it. Maybe because of the artist or the writer or the storyline or maybe there was a shipment problem and only a few issues were distributed, etc, etc. If the book is changed repeatedly then everything you bought into is rendered worthless. You can buy whole runs of the Legion for pennies on the dollar on e-bay. This isn't because DC glutted the market like Marvel did with X-titles but because TPTB don't give a damn about their customers.

Yes, I buy other titles but that's not what brings me in to the shop, the Legion does. No Legion, no motivation to drop in and spend the cash. Sure, I'll keep an eye out for what comes next and I'll probably get it when it hits the shop. I'm not making any promises though.

I dunno, I guess what I'm saying is that I've been burned by DC one too many times and I'm hardly in the frame of mind to be giving them any more extra chances. Don't think of me as being pissed off, I think of it as being run off, if they're not offering a product I want then they can't count on me to be a customer.
[/rant]
 
Posted by Patch Lad on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Yellow Kid:
OK, I'll shoot off an e-mail too. Maybe we ought to contact Legion creators as well, some of them have become good friends with some LW members, that might help just a little too. Mark Waid may not think highly of us (but I guarantee he knows who we are - I heard him give the web address in a speech in Dallas) though Barry Kitson has shared PMs and his time with a number of us here..that's just a "for instance".

[rant]
I wasn't trying to be a negative-nelly but I'm extremely disappointed that DC won't even try to let the book run for more than a few years at a time before canceling it and rebooting it again. It's tiring.

Part of the fun of collecting is the knowledge that some issues will eventually be rare and worth something more than you paid for it. Maybe because of the artist or the writer or the storyline or maybe there was a shipment problem and only a few issues were distributed, etc, etc. If the book is changed repeatedly then everything you bought into is rendered worthless. You can buy whole runs of the Legion for pennies on the dollar on e-bay. This isn't because DC glutted the market like Marvel did with X-titles but because TPTB don't give a damn about their customers.

Yes, I buy other titles but that's not what brings me in to the shop, the Legion does. No Legion, no motivation to drop in and spend the cash. Sure, I'll keep an eye out for what comes next and I'll probably get it when it hits the shop. I'm not making any promises though.

I dunno, I guess what I'm saying is that I've been burned by DC one too many times and I'm hardly in the frame of mind to be giving them any more extra chances. Don't think of me as being pissed off, I think of it as being run off, if they're not offering a product I want then they can't count on me to be a customer.
[/rant]

This is just the kind of thing I want to capture in a online campaign to get Didio to really take notice. I was thinking something like writing an open letter to DC, host it on a domain like bringbackthelsh.com, longlivethelegion.org (com was taken) and then have people make comments to the site about how they hate that its being cancelled etc. If we can get the other comic blogs out there to carry it, then maybe we can get enough of a following to get some notice by DC. I had a few ideas for some other things we can try, like the peanuts thing that was done for the Jericho TV show.
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
I am not personally enthusiastic about any kind of bring-back-the-Legion movement, for these reasons:

- I know they'll be back eventually. They're one of DC's basic franchises. Even if they currently don't want to bring them back at all, they would eventually change their mind and do it anyway.
- One of two things is almost certainly true. Either a) DC has a plan for what they're going to do with the Legion, in which case nothing we say is going to throw them off that plan, or b) DC doesn't have a plan for what they're going to do with the Legion, in which case nothing we say is going to help them come up with one.

Maybe I'll send them a letter anyway. But it won't be like ones that have been discussed here.
 
Posted by Colossal Boy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Owl Lad:
I emailed him too. Don't bother. He's not listening. He sends the same response no matter what you write to him.

I wrote:

Dear Mr. Didio,

I am writing to express my disappointment at the cancellation of my favourite comic book. Yes, I know it is just a comic book, but it is one that has held my rapt attention for over 25 years. I know that you have responded to other fans by having us believe that we "will be excited and intrigued by what the new year has to offer." Could you please offer us loyal fans more assurance than these words, ie. the continuation of the series at some time in the near future?

Thank you for your time...

He responded:

Sorry that this series is coming to an end but I see so much great product for the Legion in ’09, I believe you will be excited and intrigued by what the new year has to offer. Legion Of Three Worlds will continue into January and this will clarify the status of all the Legion.



Legion has a long and storied history with the DC Universe and will continue to be a mainstay of our line.

Regards,


DD


I'm not sure he even read my email because he may not have realized that I was quoting from the response he was going to send me anyway.

Dan Didio=unoriginal and insensitive

This sounds to me like he has an administrative assistant or intern reviewing anything sent to this email address and sending out a "canned statement" in reply.

Someone should try sending an email to this email address on a non-Legion topic and see what kind of reply they receive (if any).
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Colossal Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Owl Lad:
I emailed him too. Don't bother. He's not listening. He sends the same response no matter what you write to him.

...

Dan Didio=unoriginal and insensitive

This sounds to me like he has an administrative assistant or intern reviewing anything sent to this email address and sending out a "canned statement" in reply.

Someone should try sending an email to this email address on a non-Legion topic and see what kind of reply they receive (if any).

Come on, people, even at the time of snail mail, companies had this sort of policy... Unless you DO ask some particular questions that will make it difficult to get a "stationary" answer (hint, hint).
 
Posted by googoomuck on :
 
I'm inclined to think that the original plan was for LO3W to end on the same month as LSH #50. Then a new LSH book featuring the LO3W Legion would be relaunched. It's just been delayed by the slow pace of LO3Ws due to George Perez's arthritis.
 
Posted by Vee on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by googoomuck:
I'm inclined to think that the original plan was for LO3W to end on the same month as LSH #50. Then a new LSH book featuring the LO3W Legion would be relaunched. It's just been delayed by the slow pace of LO3Ws due to George Perez's arthritis.

Actually, it's been delayed by the slow pace of Geoff's writing. George just received the completed script for the next issue of LO3W last week.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Vee:
quote:
Originally posted by googoomuck:
I'm inclined to think that the original plan was for LO3W to end on the same month as LSH #50. Then a new LSH book featuring the LO3W Legion would be relaunched. It's just been delayed by the slow pace of LO3Ws due to George Perez's arthritis.

Actually, it's been delayed by the slow pace of Geoff's writing. George just received the completed script for the next issue of LO3W last week.
Next #2 or next #3?
 
Posted by Director Lad on :
 
Somebody who was there with us correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we hear something to the effect of "as long as Paul Levitz is the president of DC, there will be a Legion book" at the San Diego con this summer? If it wasn't there, I know I heard it somewhere. I believe it too.

That said, if they give the Legion some time off, that might not be the worst thing in the world. I feel like the book has been sort of lost in the tall grass for a while. Maybe a break will help DC find a definite path for the book.

Part of the problem the Legion has had since before Zero Hour is that successive writers have had a hard time defining why the Legion exists. What are they there to do? Do they fight crime? Do they defend the UP? What is their raison d'etre? That's what I think has been missing since Levitz left the book. The TMK Legion really had no reason to be together except that they were old buddies who wanted to be together. The post-Zero Hour Legion was supposed to be some kind of symbol for the UP, but how do you use that concept to tell compelling stories? After Legion Lost, that concept just got amplified, but I don't think that helped. And, much as I enjoyed Mark and Barry's take on the Legion, they honestly had a pretty flimsy reason for being together that Mark just didn't quite fully articulate.

When the Legion comes back, that's what they need: purpose. In theater, directors try to make sure that everything that actors do is based on a clear intention or objective. If an actor crosses the room, it needs to be for a reason. If there's a reason behind the cross, it tells a story; if there's no reason, it's just a guy wandering around stage. Give the Legion a clear objective and we'll see some more interesting and compelling stories again.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Director Lad:
Somebody who was there with us correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we hear something to the effect of "as long as Paul Levitz is the president of DC, there will be a Legion book" at the San Diego con this summer? If it wasn't there, I know I heard it somewhere. I believe it too.

That said, if they give the Legion some time off, that might not be the worst thing in the world. I feel like the book has been sort of lost in the tall grass for a while. Maybe a break will help DC find a definite path for the book.

Part of the problem the Legion has had since before Zero Hour is that successive writers have had a hard time defining why the Legion exists. What are they there to do? Do they fight crime? Do they defend the UP? What is their raison d'etre? That's what I think has been missing since Levitz left the book. The TMK Legion really had no reason to be together except that they were old buddies who wanted to be together. The post-Zero Hour Legion was supposed to be some kind of symbol for the UP, but how do you use that concept to tell compelling stories? After Legion Lost, that concept just got amplified, but I don't think that helped. And, much as I enjoyed Mark and Barry's take on the Legion, they honestly had a pretty flimsy reason for being together that Mark just didn't quite fully articulate.

When the Legion comes back, that's what they need: purpose. In theater, directors try to make sure that everything that actors do is based on a clear intention or objective. If an actor crosses the room, it needs to be for a reason. If there's a reason behind the cross, it tells a story; if there's no reason, it's just a guy wandering around stage. Give the Legion a clear objective and we'll see some more interesting and compelling stories again.

I have to disagree here a bit. I think TMK was totally about a reason and a purpose for a Legion. Cornered by a galaxy in shambles, with every reason to be disbanded (personal, political, you name it), they kept it going.
Reboot, the lowest point in Legion history after Legion on The Run (and that's considering all Legion baby stories from the 60s), clearly was about meandering around and - to me - not even DnA were able to give it a reason for existing. But it was worse: I had no idea why they were so boring and lifeless as characters. So, yes, in a sense, the reboot was the ultimate failure for a lack of purpose (why are they retelling LSH stories but worse and more puerile?).
Threeboot actually had a purpose: youth against parents. Too swingin' 60s to make any sense, it hampered the title for sometime. But this is hardly the case now with Shooter and Manapul. This is a team of young heroes trying to prove the Universe how capable they can be. Less about age and more about heroism and what it takes. So its failure (especially now) has nothing to do with purpose. (in fact, the book still sells +15% more than it did 5 years ago).

My guess? It's concept. When TPTB decided Giffen had gone too far (which was the only way to go, really), they killed the book. And by creating two other monsters (reboot and 3boot), they've created new LSH fans who are probably disliking this "old school" theory and making them angry as hell. Absolutely no solution is to be found by simply giving this sort-of original team to Geoff. It will still be just another team group on the shelves.

I'll insist that, if DC has to try something bold and new, Legion is that book. Legion could be a book of 4-part series, interlocked. Or an anthology. Or a "concept board" for progressive/retro writing and art. Legion was always ahead of its time up to TMK (and I can prove it!). When DC decided it would be the next X-Men (by making it just another superhero book), it died its horrible death.

So you can add Superboy, undo Crisis and bring back Kara for all you want. It will still be another book on the shelves.
 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Just what the man said... except that I think DC decided that TITANS should be the next X-Men, thus ruining the title after #90. Don't know what they wanted the Legion to be, always had the feeling they build the Reboot up to attract much younger readers. Much, much younger [Smile]
 
Posted by LardLad on :
 
Honestly, I think DC cancelling the LSH at this time when it's still above the "cancellation line", in the Top 100 and outselling many of their other titles is a clear sign that a new series is being prepped after L3W...most likely starring Geoff's version of the characters (not necessarily written by him). But at this time all the wording we're getting is really coy to make us think otherwise. It's what we've been speculating for half a year, and it's still the most likely scenario. DC cancelled Threeboot because they think they have a take that will sell better, and they don't want to publish two versions simultaneously.

I'd bet there's SOME definite, timely follow-up to L3W planned, whether it's another mini, a longterm guest appearance in Action or an ongoing.

The problem for me and some others is that we were enjoying what Shooter was doing and are weary of yet another reboot. But given the evidence, I'm pretty sure there's something on the near horizon. If there's any hope for Legion fandom, whatever it is had better be REALLY well thought out.
 
Posted by Phantom Girl on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LardLad:
Honestly, I think DC cancelling the LSH at this time when it's still above the "cancellation line", in the Top 100 and outselling many of their other titles is a clear sign that a new series is being prepped after L3W...most likely starring Geoff's version of the characters (not necessarily written by him). But at this time all the wording we're getting is really coy to make us think otherwise. It's what we've been speculating for half a year, and it's still the most likely scenario. DC cancelled Threeboot because they think they have a take that will sell better, and they don't want to publish two versions simultaneously.

I'd bet there's SOME definite, timely follow-up to L3W planned, whether it's another mini, a longterm guest appearance in Action or an ongoing.

The problem for me and some others is that we were enjoying what Shooter was doing and are weary of yet another reboot. But given the evidence, I'm pretty sure there's something on the near horizon. If there's any hope for Legion fandom, whatever it is had better be REALLY well thought out.

I've been thinking the same thing. I hope they do bring the original characters back but do find a way to not make them so old.....I'd be good with late teens or very early twenties...but not 30+. I hope they avoid marriages and children. Not because it isn't interesting but rather writers can't seem to put the breaks on things and keep advancing the timeline once these kinds of events unfold.
 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Phantom Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by LardLad:
Honestly, I think DC cancelling the LSH at this time when it's still above the "cancellation line", in the Top 100 and outselling many of their other titles is a clear sign that a new series is being prepped after L3W...most likely starring Geoff's version of the characters (not necessarily written by him). But at this time all the wording we're getting is really coy to make us think otherwise. It's what we've been speculating for half a year, and it's still the most likely scenario. DC cancelled Threeboot because they think they have a take that will sell better, and they don't want to publish two versions simultaneously.

I'd bet there's SOME definite, timely follow-up to L3W planned, whether it's another mini, a longterm guest appearance in Action or an ongoing.

The problem for me and some others is that we were enjoying what Shooter was doing and are weary of yet another reboot. But given the evidence, I'm pretty sure there's something on the near horizon. If there's any hope for Legion fandom, whatever it is had better be REALLY well thought out.

I've been thinking the same thing. I hope they do bring the original characters back but do find a way to not make them so old.....I'd be good with late teens or very early twenties...but not 30+. I hope they avoid marriages and children. Not because it isn't interesting but rather writers can't seem to put the breaks on things and keep advancing the timeline once these kinds of events unfold.
To me, it seems that in LS and Action, not too many years have passed since Crisis - maybe another Five years later? I would guess the characters to be in their middle 20s, the three founders maybe 30. As this is playing in the 30th century, being 30 does not mean the same that being 30 is meaning today - and even today, being 30 does not mean that someone is already old or uninteresting...

I never understood why so many people were so keen on the Legion being teenagers. I mean, yes, they started as teenagers, but in most of their classic stories, they certainly did not ACT like teenagers. So their "inner age" over the decades was always about 25, maybe older. And even if they were teenagers in the beginning: how interesting can a book be whose characters just don't develop? Those are supposed to be human beings, so how can they be 18 for the rest of their (and our) lives? they HAVE to grow older, and I really liked it when this was shown prominently in 5YL cause I had grown older with them, so this was natural.

Just discovering the JSA myth, I really think there's an example how character growing older can be managed. They grow, they have successors, they even die. That's the stuff a true epic is made of, not 20 teenagers in spandex fighting Tangleweb for 20 years over and over again...
 
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
Next #2 or next #3?

Based on what little I know about the comics process, it'd bet it was #4 or maybe #5.

(If this was a joke...sorry. I took it literal.)

If there is no series planned beyond the current one, then not allowing Shooter and Manapul to finish at #54 is criminal and I'm shocked no one in Editorial at DC has learned enough from the DnA debacle to let the creative types finish their stories properly.
 
Posted by Reboot on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
And by creating two other monsters (reboot and 3boot), they've created new LSH fans who are probably disliking this "old school" theory and making them angry as hell.

Nah, I got my anger out of the way back in 2004 (well, and 05. And 06. But by 07 I was in recovery [Smile] ). Now, I'm just watching with a sort of detached amusement.
 
Posted by Director Lad on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
I have to disagree here a bit. I think TMK was totally about a reason and a purpose for a Legion. Cornered by a galaxy in shambles, with every reason to be disbanded (personal, political, you name it), they kept it going.

Yes, but why did they keep it going? What, exactly, were they trying to accomplish by reforming the Legion? That's what I've always felt was missing.


quote:
Threeboot actually had a purpose: youth against parents.
See, this is where I think Mark and Barry didn't really make their intentions clear (the "we're so bored of it we could scream" from the first issue didn't help). At the start of the 3boot, the Legion was partly a counter-culture movement, but the actual team was together because they believed that society was stagnating and, at least for Brainy and Cos, that the stagnation would lead to society being defenseless in the face of new threats from the outside. It was less "youth against parents" and more "radicals against the stifling status quo." I'm not saying it worked, necessarily, but it wasn't as simple as a lot of people seemed to interpret it.
quote:
This is a team of young heroes trying to prove the Universe how capable they can be. Less about age and more about heroism and what it takes. So its failure (especially now) has nothing to do with purpose. (in fact, the book still sells +15% more than it did 5 years ago).
I will admit that Shooter has offered his Legion more opportunities for heroism than many of the recent versions, but it doesn't solve the basic premise problem: the reason for the base existence of the team is not especially compelling. (For myself, I preferred a Legion that didn't care what anyone else thought, but worked to save them anyway. They weren't trying to prove themselves, because they already believed in themselves and that was enough.)

Whatever else they are, DC is in the business of making money, which they do by selling more comics, and, based on fan reaction to the "Action" Legion, they probably think they can do that better with a different Legion than the one that's running now. Even if the current book is selling better than it did in '03, how much better did the Superman and the Legion stories sell in Action? How many copies of the hardcover did they sell? That's the metric that DC is going to pay attention to.


quote:
When TPTB decided Giffen had gone too far (which was the only way to go, really), they killed the book.
Actually, Giffen had been gone a couple of years when the 5yl was rebooted.
quote:
And by creating two other monsters (reboot and 3boot), they've created new LSH fans who are probably disliking this "old school" theory and making them angry as hell.
This I absolutely agree with. The split between Legion fans has some of the characteristics of a religious schism. DC is going to have a tough time satisfying all the factions of Legion fandom at this point. I think that's another reason to give us six months to a year off. Let us all get some distance, then come back with a Legion book that gets back to the fundamentals. Of course, to do that you have to figure out what those fundamentals are...
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Director Lad:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
When TPTB decided Giffen had gone too far (which was the only way to go, really), they killed the book.

Actually, Giffen had been gone a couple of years when the 5yl was rebooted.

Yes, but the book was dumbed down from then on - it was an editorial decision to get the book back to spandex, "action scenes" and dumb nicknames, which made no sense at all after all that happened before. It's like calling Ron Marz (the butcher of GL) to write Doom Patrol after Grant Morrison. The reboot was a consequence of a stupid decision. Legionnaires was supposed to be the "hero" book while "LSH" could be the challenging (or the suggested Omega Men Keith was supposed to be doing).

quote:
quote:
And by creating two other monsters (reboot and 3boot), they've created new LSH fans who are probably disliking this "old school" theory and making them angry as hell.
This I absolutely agree with. The split between Legion fans has some of the characteristics of a religious schism. DC is going to have a tough time satisfying all the factions of Legion fandom at this point. I think that's another reason to give us six months to a year off. Let us all get some distance, then come back with a Legion book that gets back to the fundamentals. Of course, to do that you have to figure out what those fundamentals are... [/qb]
There are no fundamentals. Each reboot gave a new unique perspective on what makes Legion - some of them even contradict each other (youthful optimism x long and established chronology). Unless DC works in a different agenda in different rules - and from what I can see from W&K original idea and hopefully Johns interpretation there is some space for a bolder approach - Legion will NEVER catch on again, because they will always piss some side of it.

[ October 04, 2008, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Ricardo ]
 
Posted by Phantom Girl on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chemical King:
To me, it seems that in LS and Action, not too many years have passed since Crisis - maybe another Five years later? I would guess the characters to be in their middle 20s, the three founders maybe 30. As this is playing in the 30th century, being 30 does not mean the same that being 30 is meaning today - and even today, being 30 does not mean that someone is already old or uninteresting...

I never understood why so many people were so keen on the Legion being teenagers. I mean, yes, they started as teenagers, but in most of their classic stories, they certainly did not ACT like teenagers. So their "inner age" over the decades was always about 25, maybe older. And even if they were teenagers in the beginning: how interesting can a book be whose characters just don't develop? Those are supposed to be human beings, so how can they be 18 for the rest of their (and our) lives? they HAVE to grow older, and I really liked it when this was shown prominently in 5YL cause I had grown older with them, so this was natural.

Just discovering the JSA myth, I really think there's an example how character growing older can be managed. They grow, they have successors, they even die. That's the stuff a true epic is made of, not 20 teenagers in spandex fighting Tangleweb for 20 years over and over again... [/QB]

I guess what I am trying to say is that after being absent from the Legion for so many years, I want to see something that really reminds me of what I grew up with and thus fell in love with from the beginning. After my brother sold my Legion comics, I gave up on the idea of resuming a collection for about 20 years. During those 20 years I would visit my favorite store for roleplaying games. That same store was a huge comic outlet as well. Without failure, nearly every visit I would still go to the walls of comics and look at the recent copy or two of whatever version or title of Legion existed at the time.

What I found was barely recognizable from my childhood. The names changed, every costume was different, some powers changed. Some of the titles like L.E.G.I.O.N. made absolutely no sense to me, and so despite my fondness for the past, I didn't buy. The cost was enormous compared to what I had paid growing up as well and so that was another major deterrent. I saw the hardcover archive books and wanted them so badly, but just couldn't bring myself to pay $50.00 for one book.

Now, after so many years, I accidently ran into the very first issue I ever owned of Legion. I bought it for fifty cents. Once I got that copy back in my hands, things changed. I had no problem buying the archive books and once I acquired them all I decided to blend my 2 favorite things...Legion and roleplaying games. I then began collecting back issues, partly for research, partly for reading and enjoying the best part of my what was...a miserable and abusive childhood. So for me Legion represents a few things...

1. The best part of my childhood.
2. Becoming immersed in the warm feeling I get inside when I actually read Legion.
3. Nobody to tell me no, I can't have that.
4. Nobody there to take it away from me.
5. A blending of hobbies....the best with my second best hobby.
6. A matter of pride in the ownership of something I love more than anything thing else.
7. The entertainment value it offers.

So why would I prefer something quite similar to what I had so long ago....because it was one of the few times I smiled inside growing up. That's what Legion means to me and as disfunctional as I may sound.....that's what I want as an adult...and that is what I still receive when I read Legion. They make me happy. If you knew me, you'd want me to smile more than I do.

So it isn't a matter of right or wrong, what's better or worse...it's what I get out of it and being as happy as possible with that. That's all!

[ October 04, 2008, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: Phantom Girl ]
 
Posted by Patch Lad on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Phantom Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by Chemical King:
To me, it seems that in LS and Action, not too many years have passed since Crisis - maybe another Five years later? I would guess the characters to be in their middle 20s, the three founders maybe 30. As this is playing in the 30th century, being 30 does not mean the same that being 30 is meaning today - and even today, being 30 does not mean that someone is already old or uninteresting...

I never understood why so many people were so keen on the Legion being teenagers. I mean, yes, they started as teenagers, but in most of their classic stories, they certainly did not ACT like teenagers. So their "inner age" over the decades was always about 25, maybe older. And even if they were teenagers in the beginning: how interesting can a book be whose characters just don't develop? Those are supposed to be human beings, so how can they be 18 for the rest of their (and our) lives? they HAVE to grow older, and I really liked it when this was shown prominently in 5YL cause I had grown older with them, so this was natural.

Just discovering the JSA myth, I really think there's an example how character growing older can be managed. They grow, they have successors, they even die. That's the stuff a true epic is made of, not 20 teenagers in spandex fighting Tangleweb for 20 years over and over again...

I guess what I am trying to say is that after being absent from the Legion for so many years, I want to see something that really reminds me of what I grew up with and thus fell in love with from the beginning. After my brother sold my Legion comics, I gave up on the idea of resuming a collection for about 20 years. During those 20 years I would visit my favorite store for roleplaying games. That same store was a huge comic outlet as well. Without failure, nearly every visit I would still go to the walls of comics and look at the recent copy or two of whatever version or title of Legion existed at the time.

What I found was barely recognizable from my childhood. The names changed, every costume was different, some powers changed. Some of the titles like L.E.G.I.O.N. made absolutely no sense to me, and so despite my fondness for the past, I didn't buy. The cost was enormous compared to what I had paid growing up as well and so that was another major deterrent. I saw the hardcover archive books and wanted them so badly, but just couldn't bring myself to pay $50.00 for one book.

Now, after so many years, I accidently ran into the very first issue I ever owned of Legion. I bought it for fifty cents. Once I got that copy back in my hands, things changed. I had no problem buying the archive books and once I acquired them all I decided to blend my 2 favorite things...Legion and roleplaying games. I then began collecting back issues, partly for research, partly for reading and enjoying the best part of my what was...a miserable and abusive childhood. So for me Legion represents a few things...

1. The best part of my childhood.
2. Becoming immersed in the warm feeling I get inside when I actually read Legion.
3. Nobody to tell me no, I can't have that.
4. Nobody there to take it away from me.
5. A blending of hobbies....the best with my second best hobby.
6. A matter of pride in the ownership of something I love more than anything thing else.
7. The entertainment value it offers.

So why would I prefer something quite similar to what I had so long ago....because it was one of the few times I smiled inside growing up. That's what Legion means to me and as disfunctional as I may sound.....that's what I want as an adult...and that is what I still receive when I read Legion. They make me happy. If you knew me, you'd want me to smile more than I do.

So it isn't a matter of right or wrong, what's better or worse...it's what I get out of it and being as happy as possible with that. That's all! [/QB]

That all makes sense to me. When I read the Action run by Johns, it was like I was a kid again. I really miss things the way they used to be.
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
Phantom Girl and Patch Lad, I hear what you are saying, but I don't see how a new Legion series can survive in the form that I think you want. The early Legion stories were good, but the Adventure Legion always prevailed and everything pretty much turned out fine (with very limited exceptions). Even during most of the S/LSH run and into Levitz/Giffen, the universe was pretty rosy, things generally turned out fine, and the characters remained fairly static. I'm not sure that modern comics readers will accept that type of universe. Even the preboot Legion's greatest stories, such as the Great Darkness Saga, have to be recognized as achievement for their times. However, if that came out today, most modern readers would fight it anachronistic and trite. The only ongoing readers I can see such a series attracting would be old Legion fans, and we probably number about the same as the people currently buying the Threeboot.

Right now, the Johns' Legion is selling very well because it attracts old readers who love the nostalgia and new readers who have been brought in by Superman. The old readers don't really matter, because we will generally read whatever Legion is offered. So the key for a new series' success is keeping new readers. For them to stay with the new series, they will need to see more than optimistic characters. Readers expect characters to develop and grow now. They get bored easily, and they also seem to want to see realism. IMO, that was why Waid's Legion failed -- too many issues were devoted to Cosmic Boy fighting Braniac Five for control of the Legion, interrupted by the universal threat of the month. Not enough time was spent making us care for the characters (imo, that is what Shooter is doing, but unfortunately, that came too late). So far, Johns' books seem to be following the Waid approach -- taking the characters and having them react to the pending extrinsic threat. What personalities they have are the personalities that we are filling in for them or the personalities that John has told us exist (e.g., the descriptions of the founders as Truth, Justice, and the American Way). I don't think that will sustain a new series at a level that makes yet another reboot worthwhile, so I fully anticipate any new series to be set in a dystopian and grim universe. (I also cynically believe that one of the goals behind reviving the "old" Legion is to add a lot more characters to the mainstream DC universe, so that DC has fodder for its annual event books. DC has pretty much exhausted the various Titans books, and needs a new supply of bodies. I don't find it coincidence that two Legionnaires died the first time that Legionnaires have played a significant role in a DC event book in years.)
 
Posted by Pariscub on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:
Phantom Girl and Patch Lad, I hear what you are saying, but I don't see how a new Legion series can survive in the form that I think you want. The early Legion stories were good, but the Adventure Legion always prevailed and everything pretty much turned out fine (with very limited exceptions). Even during most of the S/LSH run and into Levitz/Giffen, the universe was pretty rosy, things generally turned out fine, and the characters remained fairly static. I'm not sure that modern comics readers will accept that type of universe. Even the preboot Legion's greatest stories, such as the Great Darkness Saga, have to be recognized as achievement for their times. However, if that came out today, most modern readers would fight it anachronistic and trite. The only ongoing readers I can see such a series attracting would be old Legion fans, and we probably number about the same as the people currently buying the Threeboot.

Right now, the Johns' Legion is selling very well because it attracts old readers who love the nostalgia and new readers who have been brought in by Superman. The old readers don't really matter, because we will generally read whatever Legion is offered. So the key for a new series' success is keeping new readers. For them to stay with the new series, they will need to see more than optimistic characters. Readers expect characters to develop and grow now. They get bored easily, and they also seem to want to see realism. IMO, that was why Waid's Legion failed -- too many issues were devoted to Cosmic Boy fighting Braniac Five for control of the Legion, interrupted by the universal threat of the month. Not enough time was spent making us care for the characters (imo, that is what Shooter is doing, but unfortunately, that came too late). So far, Johns' books seem to be following the Waid approach -- taking the characters and having them react to the pending extrinsic threat. What personalities they have are the personalities that we are filling in for them or the personalities that John has told us exist (e.g., the descriptions of the founders as Truth, Justice, and the American Way). I don't think that will sustain a new series at a level that makes yet another reboot worthwhile, so I fully anticipate any new series to be set in a dystopian and grim universe. (I also cynically believe that one of the goals behind reviving the "old" Legion is to add a lot more characters to the mainstream DC universe, so that DC has fodder for its annual event books. DC has pretty much exhausted the various Titans books, and needs a new supply of bodies. I don't find it coincidence that two Legionnaires died the first time that Legionnaires have played a significant role in a DC event book in years.)

I see what you mean. However, Geoff Johns has a pretty good track record at taking old characters and making them interesting again... JSA (newest series), Teen Titans, Green Lantern... And the classic "back to the basics with a twist" approach seems to have been very successful so far.
 
Posted by Mr. Kayak on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:
So far, Johns' books seem to be following the Waid approach -- taking the characters and having them react to the pending extrinsic threat. What personalities they have are the personalities that we are filling in for them or the personalities that John has told us exist (e.g., the descriptions of the founders as Truth, Justice, and the American Way).

i don't agree at all!

i think that in his action comics arc with the legion johns did a good work giving each carachter his own feel. they don't talk the same way, they don't act the same way. every legionnaire has a clear personality, even if not deeply analyzed (but the story was just 6 issue long, you know). garth is the hot head, imra is the reasonable one; and look at brainy ("i was wr... i was wr..."), or at the subs, or remember the scene between timber wolf and wildfire. they don't seem flat characters at all to me. a little brush stroke after another.

as for Lo3W, the story is just beginning and it's not like in issue 1 the legion had so much time in front of the cameras. at least half of the story was about superboy prime... so, i think that before accusing this story to render carachter's personalities just as as stereotypes we should wait and see.
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
I realize Johns is limited by the format of his stories. However, he has actually written about the same number of recent Legion stories -- between Lightning Saga, Superman and the LSH, and Lo3W -- than Shooter has written. I also never said that Johns has not given them personalities at all. What I said is that the personalities he has given them so far reminds me of what Waid did -- he told us their personalities (Lightning Lad is hotheaded, Cosmic Boy is tolerant, Imra is truth). Whether Johns develops them beyond that stage is the critical issue for me.
 
Posted by Mr. Kayak on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:
I realize Johns is limited by the format of his stories. However, he has actually written about the same number of recent Legion stories -- between Lightning Saga, Superman and the LSH, and Lo3W -- than Shooter has written. I also never said that Johns has not given them personalities at all. What I said is that the personalities he has given them so far reminds me of what Waid did -- he told us their personalities (Lightning Lad is hotheaded, Cosmic Boy is tolerant, Imra is truth). Whether Johns develops them beyond that stage is the critical issue for me.

the lightning saga isn't a story about the legion. it's a story where some legionnaires have a large role, but their time on stage is really limited. besides, most of the story was written by brad meltzer, whose recent comic book writing left me very cold (i'm a fan of his novels, though).

i think what you are referring is influenced by Lo3W #1, which does have a scene where the three founders are actually described the way you just quoted. what i suggest you is to not be influenced too much by that scene (which, btw, didn't exalt me neither). try to re-read "superman & the losh" on action comics, you'll see that johns didn't just depict the legionnaires just by telling what their personalities are supposed to be, but he let those personalities emerge by the characters' behaviour.

i think a legion series written the way johns did with his action comics arc would work.
waid described the legionnaires by looking at them through the eyes of an old man, who looks at kids and only sees their faults. wak's legionnaires were immature at best. i believe it's obvious that kids didn't like to read a comic book where they were portraied like that. it was... insulting.
on the other hand, johns' legion is more pleasant, and even if characters still have their faults (look at lightning lad, for example) they aren't seen from the point of wiew of someone who feels better than them. io think they're more human and more relatable.
 
Posted by Phantom Girl on :
 
I recently read the Action Comics Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes, now I am reading the Lightning Series (which I find confusing by the way). I'm not finding any real characterization at all. To me the Legionnaires all seem the same, so I guess I'm missing what others are seeing.

As for having the Action Legion take over....ok by me, but then I'll take what I can get....perhaps I'll see more characterization after more stories are written (if DC goes that direction)

This L.E.G.I.O.N. thing though sounds like a spin off which isn't actually Legion, so I wouldn't want that to take the place of Legion. Now granted I haven't read it and it very well may be good, but if it isn't the Legion then I'm missing the point of having it become the Legion replacement. Eventually I will read it when I have collected enough back issues. I don't see how it can be a viable replacement though if it doesn't have any Legionnaires in it and just distant relatives at best.
 
Posted by Vee on :
 
Well, I emailed Dan DiDio and Paul Levitz last Thursday. Finally got a response from Dan today. Still nothing from Paul (and I'm not holding my breath though it would be nice to get a response)

My email said the following:

"Dan & Paul:

I'm writing to express my dismay at the news that the Legion of Super Heroes has been canceled once again.

I've been a die hard fan since the early Adventure run and have bought and enjoyed every single issue of the Legion since then. I can assure you that it (LSH) is the main reason I visit my comic shop regularly.

I must admit to being as confused today about the treatment given such a special franchise as I was when they lost their place in Adventure and became DC's nomads for a while. I can certainly understand a cancellation if a book doesn't sell sufficient copies to make it profitable but have a hard time believing that is the case with Legion of Super Heroes when so many other DC titles fare even worse and continue to be published.

In my opinion the biggest problem with the Legion is the constant rebooting and relaunches that this title has endured over the years. LSH could easily have been DC's X-Men franchise. Instead it seemed to be more of an after thought.

I can only hope that you have not wasted all the publicity and "face time" the Legion has seen this year ... it's 50th anniversary. Surely there is some plan to make use of all that effort. Just about every single creator I've heard address the topic of the Legion says they are a big fan and would love to write or draw it someday. That must tell you something about how unique a property this is. And it's long time, die hard fans should tell you even more.

Please give this title the respect it deserves. The world needs a bright hope for the future now more than ever."


Of course, the reply I got is identical to everyone else so I won't waste the space in posting it once again.

If I happen to hear back from Paul I'll let you know.
 
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:
Right now, the Johns' Legion is selling very well because it attracts old readers who love the nostalgia and new readers who have been brought in by Superman. The old readers don't really matter, because we will generally read whatever Legion is offered. So the key for a new series' success is keeping new readers. For them to stay with the new series, they will need to see more than optimistic characters. Readers expect characters to develop and grow now.

I disagree. Comics sell much less than they used to. The 150K who buy the #1 title out there? Very few are new readers. There are less "new readers" than former readers. Sure there are 10, 20, 30 thousand new readers. Where are the half mil of the old readers.

The new readers debate doesn't jive with me because ALL of comics need new readers. The olders will not buy anything DC offers. The hardcore fans that will buy anything will ofcourse. The rest of the old readers want their old characters, old continuity with new adventures.

Old readers who do not currently buy the title but want to outnumber new readers. It's new coke versus classic coke.
 
Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
So we've got long time fans emailing DC telling them how much they love the Legion. People expressing a desire to see them in a series, and John's recent arc in Action selling more than the current series does.

DC would have to be crazy not to consider the current series a pale comparison. It may not be a total failure, but it's not the revenue generater that they want. Between the fans and the sales, they have to consider a more classic Legion a viable success.
 
Posted by matlock on :
 
I don't know, are casual fans going to want to get involved in a series which is tied to continuity that's been inactive for many years (and only sporadically in print in trades?) In a title which has always had a knock against it as being difficult to catch on to? I'm not totally sure. It's one thing to catch readers eyes in a more well established series (Action) with a creative team that's well established and reasonably popular and another to start yet another new Legion title from scratch.

I really wouldn't be surprised if Action starts regularly featuring the Legion as the ongoing costars like the old Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes concept.
 
Posted by fjm on :
 
hey folks I just wanted to chime in and say thanks for your support of the book. It's really sad to see it go but I'm sure DC has some plans for it's future.
 
Posted by LardLad on :
 
Francis, I want to personally thank you for a great run that got better and better as it went on. I look forward to the last 4 issues and am sorry it won't continue afterward.
 
Posted by Askanipsion on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by fjm:
hey folks I just wanted to chime in and say thanks for your support of the book. It's really sad to see it go but I'm sure DC has some plans for it's future.

Honestly I decided to keep buying Legion because of your artwork - glad I did! I love your work. You draw the BEST Saturn Girl ever!

Please let us know what future projects you will be working on so I can check them out.

At least I got to see you draw my favorite Legionnaire, Dream Girl [Smile]
 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by matlock:
I don't know, are casual fans going to want to get involved in a series which is tied to continuity that's been inactive for many years (and only sporadically in print in trades?) In a title which has always had a knock against it as being difficult to catch on to? I'm not totally sure. It's one thing to catch readers eyes in a more well established series (Action) with a creative team that's well established and reasonably popular and another to start yet another new Legion title from scratch.

I really do think it could be done, considering JSA with its even more challeged continuity which hadn't had an own series for many many years got a lot of readers hooked and is still running rather successfully. They did some very helpful Secret Files issues in 1999 and 2001 - the Legion would have to do this as well - and I still believe that a small inexpensive Reprint of the "Secrets of the Legion" Threeparter would help many people jump on the bandwagon quite easily. Back when I was a kid, that Threeparter told me everything I had to know, and I went from there, though I guess I had read some Legion stories before but not many... memory is hazy...

So yes, done with the right fervor, you could drag people into the Legion.

As for Francis, I really appreciate your work on the Legion, I was astonished how much I grew to love it so quickly. Hopefully you guys will be able to pull of the current storyline in some satisfactory way. I'll be looking out for your next work!
 
Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by matlock:
I don't know, are casual fans going to want to get involved in a series which is tied to continuity that's been inactive for many years (and only sporadically in print in trades?) In a title which has always had a knock against it as being difficult to catch on to? I'm not totally sure. It's one thing to catch readers eyes in a more well established series (Action) with a creative team that's well established and reasonably popular and another to start yet another new Legion title from scratch.

This is exactly how I feel. Reviving the 80s Legion isn't going to attract any new readers.
 
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
 
Thanks, Francis, for some great work. Maybe one day we'll see YOU back on the Legion.

Question: Did you find it as daunting a job as many others with so many characters, or did you enjoy the challenge?
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by fjm:
hey folks I just wanted to chime in and say thanks for your support of the book. It's really sad to see it go but I'm sure DC has some plans for it's future.

Given time, the Shooter-Manapul teamwork on the Legion will be reappraised for what it was: a genuine highlight of the Legion myth. I can assure it is already among my top 10 LSH runs.

thanks!
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:
Originally posted by fjm:
hey folks I just wanted to chime in and say thanks for your support of the book. It's really sad to see it go but I'm sure DC has some plans for it's future.

Given time, the Shooter-Manapul teamwork on the Legion will be reappraised for what it was: a genuine highlight of the Legion myth. I can assure it is already among my top 10 LSH runs.

thanks!

I need to second Ricardo's comments. Frances, your run on Legion was a true highlight for the series.
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by CJ Taylor:
So we've got long time fans emailing DC telling them how much they love the Legion. People expressing a desire to see them in a series, and John's recent arc in Action selling more than the current series does.

DC would have to be crazy not to consider the current series a pale comparison. It may not be a total failure, but it's not the revenue generater that they want. Between the fans and the sales, they have to consider a more classic Legion a viable success.

The problem is there there is no real evidence to suggest that readers will want to purchase a book with the Lightning Saga Legion. Look at the Action sales figures from CBGxtra.com:

855 (pre-Action Legion) - 55,532
856 (pre-Action Legion) - 53,758
857 (pre-Action Legion) - 51,346
858 (Action Legion) - 54,540
859 (Action Legion) - 54,552
860 (Action Legion) - 56,220
861 (Action Legion) - 56,049
862 (Action Legion) - 55,623
863 (Action Legion) - 56,870
864 (post-Action Legion) - 48,428
865 (post-Action Legion) - 46,751

So that shows there was a slight bump in sales during the Action Legion issues. But it wasn't that big, and probably was attributable to Legion fans picking up the books (or the hype for those issues, which were heavily promoted by DC).

I will admit that I cannot explain why Action sales dropped off so precipitously from the pre-Legion issues once the Legion issues ended, but it could have to do with Superman fans (as opposed to Legion fans) being turned away from their own book by such a long Legion story. Or there might be other factors -- Countdown turned off a lot of DC readers, Trinity (another book with Superman) was on the horizon, etc. However, in terms of proving a large number of readers would pay for a Superman/Legion book -- over a pure Superman book -- the evidence of a large sales bump just isn't there. At most, you're talking a few thousand more people reading the Action Legion issues than the non-Legion Action issues.

So you have the Superman/LSH selling about 55,000 in Action compared to about 25,000 buying the threeboot books. But what does that mean for an ongoing series? I see three options.

First, the Legion could become a supporting player to Superman in Action on a regular basis. It is possible that the numbers will remain at the Action levels, but nobody is really sure that will happen once the novelty of the Superman LSH wears off. Moreover, if numbers drop from the Superman-only levels, DC will probably have to dump Legion.

Second, DC could launch a new book with Superman and the Legion (again with the Legion being a supporting player). But can the market bear another Superman book? Tangent has been selling just over 20,000, actually less than the threeboot Legion book.

Third, DC could launch a book with the Action Legion, with only occasional appearances by Superman. However, no Legion standalone book has been successful on an ongoing basis.

Obviously, any new book is likely to get some boost over the current book's numbers based on some crossover from Lo3W. But there is no guarantee that people who are picking up Lo3W are going to keep buying a Legion book that is unconnected with the giant crossover event. After six months, the "new" Legion book could very well be at the same sales level as the threeboot.

DC is making a huge leap of faith here, and I don't fully understand it. Unless the threeboot book is actually losing money, which I find unlikely given that lower-selling books are still on the market, there really is no reason to cancel the threeboot yet. The one thing we know is that Legion fans are loyal. It could very well be that DC could launch a new Legion book alongside the threeboot and have both perform okay. It just seems premature to eliminate the threeboot and put all the eggs in the Action Legion basket when the Action Legion's success is not remotely assured.
 
Posted by Pariscub on :
 
While I do agree with your assessment, I think DC's been realising in the past few years that they have a success on their hand each time they "rebooted" a classic version of the character or team... Teen Titans, Hawkman, Green Lantern, JSA, and soon Barry Flash... All with Geoff Johns.
It's no coincidence that DC could think the same thing is possible with the Legion after the Lightning Saga and the Supermand and the LSH réintroduced the 'Original' Legion.

It's risky, yes, but a relaunch may be more lucrative for DC at this point, even if it fails down the line.
 
Posted by fjm on :
 
Thanks again for the kind words guys. The Legion was probably one of the most challenging books I've drawn to date. I found it both fun and frustrating at the same time, but I wouldn't have traded the experience for anything else. I'm just glad to have contributed to the legacy of the Legion. But there's still a few more issues left so lets just sit back and enjoy the ride!
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:
The problem is there there is no real evidence to suggest that readers will want to purchase a book with the Lightning Saga Legion. Look at the Action sales figures from CBGxtra.com:

855 (pre-Action Legion) - 55,532
856 (pre-Action Legion) - 53,758
857 (pre-Action Legion) - 51,346
858 (Action Legion) - 54,540
859 (Action Legion) - 54,552
860 (Action Legion) - 56,220
861 (Action Legion) - 56,049
862 (Action Legion) - 55,623
863 (Action Legion) - 56,870
864 (post-Action Legion) - 48,428
865 (post-Action Legion) - 46,751

So that shows there was a slight bump in sales during the Action Legion issues. But it wasn't that big, and probably was attributable to Legion fans picking up the books (or the hype for those issues, which were heavily promoted by DC).

Or, what I think, this bump was caused by every edition having an alternate cover (1 to 10).
 
Posted by Tromium on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by reckless:
The problem is there is no real evidence to suggest that readers will want to purchase a book with the Lightning Saga Legion.

You've summed up very capably why the Legion is probably taking its longest vacation ever in the history of the franchise. If LO3W didn't include the ultimate fate of Superboy Prime, the resurrection of Bart Allen, the future legacy of Green Lantern, and the words "Final Crisis" splashed across it covers, its sales would be even more tepid than Action's. (Alternate covers, indeed. Action should be DC's flagship title but even Johns' popularity can't lift it out of the middle range). The fact DC is declining to exploit the momentum of LO3W, but instead letting the LSH lie fallow for an indefinite time, means they know LO3W is not an accurate barometer of the future success of the Johnsboot.

Goeff Johns will have to jump through hoops over the next few years to convince TPTB he can transform it into a self-sustaining franchise once again (2011 or later). In the meantime, the Legion is radioactive to every other creator except Levitz -- and he's good only for a nostalgia arc.

"That's another fine mess you got me in, Stanley."

[ October 09, 2008, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Tromium ]
 
Posted by Tromium on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by fjm:
Thanks again for the kind words guys. The Legion was probably one of the most challenging books I've drawn to date. I found it both fun and frustrating at the same time, but I wouldn't have traded the experience for anything else. I'm just glad to have contributed to the legacy of the Legion. But there's still a few more issues left so lets just sit back and enjoy the ride!

Francis, you've won my admiration. I hope DC keeps you around for a very long time. Imo, you have what it takes to be a real star.
 
Posted by matlock on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tromium:
quote:
Originally posted by fjm:
Thanks again for the kind words guys. The Legion was probably one of the most challenging books I've drawn to date. I found it both fun and frustrating at the same time, but I wouldn't have traded the experience for anything else. I'm just glad to have contributed to the legacy of the Legion. But there's still a few more issues left so lets just sit back and enjoy the ride!

Francis, you've won my admiration. I hope DC keeps you around for a very long time. Imo, you have what it takes to be a real star.
Here, here! I think you should have lots of opportunities, and join the ranks of ex-Legion artists that went on to a great career.
 
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Definitely let us know where you end up next Francis! You've got a whole slew of fans now that will follow you from book to book!
 
Posted by Vee on :
 
Ditto! Your artwork is wonderful...rich and captivating. I look forward to seeing your work in your next assignments.
 
Posted by armsfalloffboy on :
 
So do we know what the actual plan once the current series is cancelled and L3W is over? Is there anything on the schedule for 2009? I will be very disappointed if there isn't--it seems like there has been some Legion momentum in the last year or so, if they let it die with a whimper I worry that that might be it for a while...
 
Posted by Matthew E on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by armsfalloffboy:
So do we know what the actual plan once the current series is cancelled and L3W is over? Is there anything on the schedule for 2009?

We do not. There is not.

Many people are speculating, some with theories more plausible than others. My theory is that DC doesn't know what it's doing next and that it could be a long, long time before they decide.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew E:
quote:
Originally posted by armsfalloffboy:
So do we know what the actual plan once the current series is cancelled and L3W is over? Is there anything on the schedule for 2009?

We do not. There is not.

Many people are speculating, some with theories more plausible than others. My theory is that DC doesn't know what it's doing next and that it could be a long, long time before they decide.

I'm with you, brother... I still can see a Levitz/Giffen book coming up before long, but as for a monthly, I don't see that for some time. And not even Johns will make it much stronger than Shooter's.
 
Posted by Evolution Has Failed on :
 
So, let me get this straight:

- The Legion FINALLY gets public exposure with a cartoon, which had reasonable ratings and was only canceled due to business dealing...they even had McDonald's toys

- DC FINALLY decides to clean up the long running LSH continuity mess and bring back the more popular originals, creating a 5 part mini-series of 40 pages PER VOLUME (200 pages, a novel!!!)

- Plans are in the works to FINALLY have a live version of LSH characters, in the form of a Smallville episode...

And you all are saying that, in the aftermath of all that, they are going to cancel the book entirely??? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I think any citations on sagging sales figures should be normalized to the OVERALL change in sales figures for ALL DC books...I imagine with the economy the way it is, people are probably buying a lot less comics in general.

I don't know what those figures would be, nor am I an insider in any way... but I just think that it is highly counter-intuitive that they'd put so much effort into the LSH, then drop the book entirely, when for years they made 1 and even 2 titles a month that weren't even very popular.
 
Posted by reckless on :
 
Nobody is sure what will happen after Lo3W. There may be an ongoing book with the Johns Legion, possibly a LoSH title or Action. There also may be a time when the Legion is a back-up or shares a book. We just don't know right now.

I do agree with you that it would be weird, after all events that have increased the Legion's visibility in the DCU, to have no Legion book at all. However, DC's handling of the Legion has not been very logical. Just the fact that most of the efforts you have described involve different versions of the Legion. If DC had made a concerted attempt to promote a single Legion in all arenas, it would have helped. Instead, there is the cartoon Legion (which bears no real resemblance to any version), the Johns' Action Legion (which is not yet developed), and the Threeboot (which has received virtually no promotion whatsoever). It seems to me that DC had a golden opportunity to use the cartoon to promote the Legion comic, but failed miserably. Since the Johns Legion is obviously the one that will come out of Lo3W, I hope he makes the Smallville characters consistent. (I have to admit some disappointment with using the founders only, as is rumored. While I think hardcore Legion fans will enjoy Lightning Lad, Cosmic Boy and Saturn Girl, I think there are other members who would be more intriguing to non-Legion fans. There powers seem pretty basic, especially considering viewers saw Cosmic Boy's and Saturn Girl's powers used in the X-Men movie. I would rather see more Legionnaires, along with a broader display of powers and non-humanoid beings.)
 
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
 
Is the message from DC purely based on Lo3W running late and they don't want to announce anything until it's finished its run (or at least have a creditable date for the series finishing).

It would be crazy to have a Legion V6 starting in Feb if Lo3W #5 doesn't hit the shops until March or April (or May or June.....)

Let's hope DC have a Legion V6 waiting to roll off the presses.
 
Posted by Tromium on :
 
Reality check and recheck:

"We've got a lot of plans and a lot of thought for the Legion right now, but coming out of the Legion of 3 Worlds, we're going to let the characters rest for a little bit and see where we go from there," he [Dan Didio] said.
...

So Newsarama asked DiDio: Is it possible there will be a Johns-penned series featuring the Legion of Super-Heroes in the future?

"You know what? I think we'd love Geoff to write everything right now. But realistically, he's got a pretty full slate with everything that's going on," DiDio said. "He's got Flash, Green Lantern, JSA, Action, and specials coming up because this thing called Blackest Night is looming. But I'm sure that the Legion will stay close to Geoff and near and dear to him as well, and you'll probably see some of them appear through some of his runs down the line. I don't want to give too much away. But there's always plans for the Legion. " They're an important part of the DC Universe. And more importantly, I think we've done a great job with the story. I think Jim and Francis have done a great job bringing it to an end. And after Legion of 3 Worlds, there will be more opportunities, so we're going to explore those after that series concludes."



I don't think Didio could be more straightforward. The monthly series is being put to bed with #50. The entire Legion franchise goes for a rest after LO3W. Some of the characters will "probably" appear afterwards in Geoff Johns' other books down the line (he's not sure). Johns is unable to write an ongoing Legion series in the near future (which GJ has confirmed independently). Some fuzzy hints of other (unrumored) plans, but for the present time, DC is going to "see where we go from here." and explore other opportunities -- which in plain English translates as "We don't know exactly what to do yet, so don't hold your breath."

If some folks want to interpret Didio's remarks more optimistically, that's their perogative, but there's little evidence for it. The only project even to be mentioned as a tenuous possibility after LO3W is a Levitz/GIffen arc, but at last mention Levitz wouldn't committ to it for lack of time. Maybe some tie-ins with Bedard's L.E.G.I.O.N. There may very well be other ideas floating around in the Didio's head, but another monthly Legion series would not appear to be one of them.

[ October 14, 2008, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Tromium ]
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tromium:
Reality check and recheck:

"We've got a lot of plans and a lot of thought for the Legion right now, but coming out of the Legion of 3 Worlds, we're going to let the characters rest for a little bit and see where we go from there," he [Dan Didio] said.
...

So Newsarama asked DiDio: Is it possible there will be a Johns-penned series featuring the Legion of Super-Heroes in the future?

"You know what? I think we'd love Geoff to write everything right now. But realistically, he's got a pretty full slate with everything that's going on," DiDio said. "He's got Flash, Green Lantern, JSA, Action, and specials coming up because this thing called Blackest Night is looming. But I'm sure that the Legion will stay close to Geoff and near and dear to him as well, and you'll probably see some of them appear through some of his runs down the line. I don't want to give too much away. But there's always plans for the Legion. " They're an important part of the DC Universe. And more importantly, I think we've done a great job with the story. I think Jim and Francis have done a great job bringing it to an end. And after Legion of 3 Worlds, there will be more opportunities, so we're going to explore those after that series concludes."



I don't think Didio could be more straightforward. The monthly series is being put to bed with #50. The entire Legion franchise goes for a rest after LO3W. Some of the characters will "probably" appear afterwards in Geoff Johns' other books down the line (he's not sure). Johns is unable to write an ongoing Legion series in the near future (which GJ has confirmed independently). Some fuzzy hints of other (unrumored) plans, but for the present time, DC is going to "see where we go from here." and explore other opportunities -- which in plain English translates as "We don't know exactly what to do yet, so don't hold your breath."

If some folks want to interpret Didio's remarks more optimistically, that's their perogative, but there's little evidence for it. The only project even to be mentioned as a tenuous possibility after LO3W is a Levitz/GIffen arc, but at last mention Levitz wouldn't committ to it for lack of time. Maybe some tie-ins with Bedard's L.E.G.I.O.N. There may very well be other ideas floating around in the Didio's head, but another monthly Legion series would not appear to be one of them.

I agree with you, Tromium, but I can also see some space for a revamped Action Comics with LSH as cameo characters. Not a new series, but "return to secondary characters" to Superman.
 
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
...and, as so many have been so tight-lipped, this could be a smokescreen.

If the idea is to put LSH to bed for a while, then why have L3W at all?
 
Posted by armsfalloffboy on :
 
The idea of "putting the characters to bed" is ridiculous. I mean, we're not talking about Doom Patrol here--we're talking about a title that has a decades long history of continuous publishing at DC that exceeds the track record of, say, Wonder Woman or Teen Titans. Plus, as many have said, this is about as critcal a mass as the Legion has had since the Baxter series. What a bunch of crap. I do hope it's a smokescreen, but if it is, it's the worst kind of bait and switch poor salesmanship I've seen from a comic book compnay in a while, and that's saying something.

Rereading the thread, I think the JSA comparison is a good one--fractured history, characters that don't seem to fit well elsewhere in DC continuity--but until a team like Robinson and Johns comes along, are we screwed? I'm feeling screwed right now...in a remarkably unpleasant way.
 
Posted by Evolution Has Failed on :
 
Aaaugh, I agree that the quote from Didio does NOT sound good....

although, if instead you embolden:

"I don't want to give too much away. But there's always plans for the Legion."

you can walk away much more optimistically

Also, it makes sense (as Silver Age Lad points out) that nothing will start until after LO3W ends...

Perhaps even, they are (shock!) FINALLY going to ACTUALLY base their decision on reader REACTION ... which they often say, but never actually happens, if one examines the timing of when projects would have to have been initiated and compares them to when reaction would have been received... so this does of course require waiting and patience.

I'd be willing to go Legion-less for 6 months if I knew that at the end of it, I'd get something
a) good
b) (for me personally) something respectful of the "traditional" LSH
3) something that will LAST for awhile!

An idea: - perhaps they are considering bringing
LSH back to the NEWSSTAND, rather than comic-shop only? For that to work, it would help if parents recognized it...ergo, the "Johns" Legion..but it would also help if it was recognizably related to the toon.
 
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
I just reread the entire Shooter run thus far. Like TMK, it reads better in a single sitting.

Now I actually will miss this version, but I'm still convinced we will see the Neoclassic Legion in its own book after L3W.
 


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