I know I might get the ire of the other worldies, but what specifically makes Brin Londo unique, power-wise. Reep Daggle can replicate his powers via shapeshifting, and Ultra Boy and Mon-El are definitely much faster and stronger. Plus, his antisocial and snide personality could be found in Wildfire and Shadow Lass to an extent.
Posted by cleome on :
I thought it was long ago established that the "no duplicates" rule means exactly what the writers feel like having it mean at any given moment.
Which is the same with Cham's powers and how much beyond form he can assume, actually. See my and others' blathering on that issue in Phantom Girl's recent RP thread. (I love that thread.)
I wasn't crazy about Wolf's personality when I was reading the book, but that's okay. Every character doesn't have to be written exactly the same, I guess.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Good question, Ibn. I've often wondered the same thing.
I can only suppose that when Brin was introduced as Lone Wolf in Adventure Comics # 327, his story struck a chord with readers. After all, he was a young man who did not know his true identity and who ultimately discovered that his birth heritage was greater than he thought. There is a folkloric quality about this. Compare Brin's loss of identity and ultimate self-discovery with "Cinderella," for example.
It could be that these elements of his origin story coupled with his budding romance with Light Lass made Brin very popular with fans, who may have clamored for his return, in a way that other characters introduced at the same time (e.g., the Heroes of Lallor). His popularity, therefore, transcends the usefulness (or lack thereof) of his powers.
But, of course, you were asking what makes him unique, powerwise. Nothing, actually. But, considering Reep's powers, there is also nothing unique about Gim, Vi, or Chuck.
Posted by cleome on :
Hey, you know... if you type out the phrase, "My Beef With Timber Wolf, He Who Wanders," it totally would have worked in a hype box for a Superboy + LoSH cover from the Grell era.
I'm just sayin'...
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Somebody's been drinking too much coffee, it seems. Posted by Ibn al-Nezumi on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Good question, Ibn. I've often wondered the same thing.
I can only suppose that when Brin was introduced as Lone Wolf in Adventure Comics # 327, his story struck a chord with readers. After all, he was a young man who did not know his true identity and who ultimately discovered that his birth heritage was greater than he thought. There is a folkloric quality about this. Compare Brin's loss of identity and ultimate self-discovery with "Cinderella," for example.
It could be that these elements of his origin story coupled with his budding romance with Light Lass made Brin very popular with fans, who may have clamored for his return, in a way that other characters introduced at the same time (e.g., the Heroes of Lallor). His popularity, therefore, transcends the usefulness (or lack thereof) of his powers.
But, of course, you were asking what makes him unique, powerwise. Nothing, actually. But, considering Reep's powers, there is also nothing unique about Gim, Vi, or Chuck.
I have the same problem with Bouncing Boy as well. Lightning Lass, too. Although I'm all for the staunch 'moral officer,' thats been replaced by Polar Boy's earnestness. I don't think Gim and Salu's powers overlap because growing and shrinking have more verisimilitude than just shifting into a minute fly or a gigantic space whale.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Brin's main power had to do with his agility and acrobatics, which he combined with fighting skills. No one could do what he could do, even if they were super strong or invulnerable. Not that they'd need to. I find him to be more comparable to Karate Kid than anyone else.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
The important thing to realize is that there was no explicit duplication of powers rule until the Bronze Age, specifically the introduction of Wildfire. Prior to that there's a general preference towards diversity of powers among the Legionnaires (they sometimes say things like "We've already got someone who can do what you do" in tryouts), but no "rule" against duplicates.
Once the rule was established as part of Legion canon, for some reason it's been assumed that Silver Age members needed to have their memberships retroactively justified, and so we get appeal to things like Brin's "super-acrobatics" as his unique ability. It always seem to me that it would make more sense to suppose that they only instituted the rule at the same time the 25-member limit came into place, which would mean that those already on the team at the time would not have been subject to it.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
I agree, Sketch Lad. I always found K Kid and T Wolf to be interchangeable. They even had the same color hair and costumes.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Ibn al-Nezumi: I don't think Gim and Salu's powers overlap because growing and shrinking have more verisimilitude than just shifting into a minute fly or a gigantic space whale.
All Cham has to do is grow or shrink in his normal form and he duplicates their powers.
Posted by Candle on :
Chams power is shapeshifting. You really shouldn't count him as anything else ~ that's his uniqueness.
I think the idea of unique powers isn't just the powers, themselves, but the combinations, strengths and presentation of the powers.
Wolfs powers are the acrobatics and agility mention before, but also, hyper senses, assertiveness, fierceness and cunning.
If he's anything like the American Timber Wolf, he'd also be a team/pack player, resourceful, observant, perceptive, rugged and a survivor.
And Brins movements should be flowing, natural, one with his environment and way past human levels of balance, reaction and speed.
I feel he's utterly unique in the Legion and in the DCU.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: The important thing to realize is that there was no explicit duplication of powers rule until the Bronze Age, specifically the introduction of Wildfire. [. . . ] Once the rule was established as part of Legion canon, for some reason it's been assumed that Silver Age members needed to have their memberships retroactively justified [. . .]
Good points, Eryk, although retroactive justification seems plausible in the case of Lightning/Light Lass, whose powers were altered by Dream Girl after Garth returned to life.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Well, Dreamy explicitly says that she altered Ayla's power because it was redundant, but nobody else had even questioned the duplication of powers prior to that. I'd actually say there must be some other reason why Nura decided to change her powers, such as she saw that the new powers would be useful on some future adventure or something.
Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
The thing is Chameleon Boy's power was originally super-disguise, not shape-shifting. It was said at the time that Cham could only assume the form, but not duplicate powers. i.e. He could look like Mon-el or a Lightning Beast, but not have super strength or generate lightning. So I image that the super-disguise power was more like a personal illusion with his body mass staying the same. So Cham could look like a little fly, but would not be able to fit through a keyhole.
Of course, his power did become shape-shifting. But even with shape-shifting, I don't see Chameleon Boy being able to duplicate Timber Wolf's abilities aka acrobatic/agility power.
Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Well, Dreamy explicitly says that she altered Ayla's power because it was redundant, but nobody else had even questioned the duplication of powers prior to that. I'd actually say there must be some other reason why Nura decided to change her powers, such as she saw that the new powers would be useful on some future adventure or something.
I think in that story, it first seemed like Alya was made powerless and thus kicked out of the Legion. Dream Girl did this to try to prevent a vision she had of the Legionnaires dying.
But doesn't the no duplication also show up when Ultra Boy joined? His unique power being his Pentra Vision which allowed him to see through anything, even lead.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
A big deal is made about the fact that Ultra Boy's vision powers are "greater" than Superboy's, but there's no explicit mention of the extra power being required to earn membership on the team.
There's lots of things that could be interpreted as implying a "no duplication" rule (I believe in Adv. #247, they mention that all Legionnaires have a power distinct from Superboy's), but it's never explicitly mentioned as requirement for membership in the Silver Age.
I remember being shocked when this was first pointed out to me, but apparently it's true.
Posted by Ibn al-Nezumi on :
All great thoughts, worldies. Especially Eryk's point on 'no explicit power' clause prior the Bronze Age and Wildfire. Failed the remember that.
But I would agree to disagree with Sketch in reference to the capabilities of KK and TW. The shtick with Val was not his expertise in all forms of martials arts in the 31st century, it was the power to perceive the weakness of any given target, something akin to Karnak of the Inhumans. So in terms of originality, KK wins over TW.
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
I agree, a lot of good points. In his origin, he was said to have grown up on Zoon, a jungle planet (this of course after he found out he was NOT an android). I would say he was in possession of some jungle survival or hunting skills, and the ray his father used enhanced them, as well as his normal 5 senses.
Although not the best reference point, one way the 3boot described him was "prodigious physicality." One dictionary defines prodigious as "extraordinary in size, amount, extent, degree, force, etc." "Physicality is defined as "Involving or characterized by vigorous bodily activity." Many of the Legionnaires-Superboy, Mon-el, Sun Boy, Shadow Lass, etc., had weaknesses which could all but disable them. T-Wolf was beyond Olympic-level athlete, and his power could not be sapped by a rock, or other force.
I would say his greatest asset would be his raw power, and the ability to channel it into an "extraordinary amount of physical force."
Posted by Set on :
When I read 'prodigious physicality' the first thing I though was that he was a prodigy, but instead of being a naturally gifted artist or musician or a mathematical prodigy, he was innately gifted at physical matters, a instinctual 'genius' at anything physical.
He'd be the polar opposite of Brainiac, a 'genius' whose gifts lie entirely in the physical realm.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Timber Wolf did not originally have heightened senses (or claws), nor did Karate Kid originally have the ability to sense weaknesses. These attributes were borrowed from Marvel characters and tacked onto Brin and Val much much later, long after their powers had already been defined in the silver age. There was also nothing animalistic about Brin in the silver age. He chose the name Lone Wolf because he was a loner, not because he had wolf-like abilities.
Although their powers are different by definition--super strength and acrobatic agility vs. mastery of all forms of hand to hand combat--they basically served the same purpose: jumping around all over the place and punching out the bad guys. They were also both portrayed as hot heads and mavericks who challenged authority and went their own way when they disagreed with the general consensus.
It's for these reasons that I always found them to be cut from the same cloth, even though their powers are not exactly the same.
Posted by Candle on :
Personally, I hate the idea that characters can't progress or be seen any differently than they were at the time of their creation. Even I've progressed to be 'more' than I was 50 years ago. They're not in amber, after all.
Brin might have taken the name Lone Wolf because he was a loner, but he kept the 'Wolf' part when he became Timber Wolf for a reason. He (the writers) wanted to identify him as a character and define his powers with that name.
To say he has no real connection to wolves robs him of who he is and his possiblities as a hero.
Posted by Set on :
I kind of liked the cartoon origin, where his father used animal DNA to turn his son into the 'ultimate predator.'
On the other hand, sometimes I think of Brin as being everything Wolverine could have been, considering that he was the template that Cockrum later used in his portrayal of the Canucklehead.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Ggrrrrrr...Don't Mess With The Wolf Or You'll Get Bit!
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: I kind of liked the cartoon origin, where his father used animal DNA to turn his son into the 'ultimate predator.'
Yes, wolf DNA would make perfect sense.
If I were creating Brin today, I might go with some ancient, glacial tissue from a frozen Dire Wolf. They were the ubber wolves ~ everything amped up to the max.
At one point, DC was setting the stage for Brin to be recreated as one of the New God creatures. They have 'hounds' or something. I'm rather glad they didn't finish that storyline. I guess.
But I DID like when they made KK Asian. Similarly, I enjoyed Brins look advancing to a more animalistic phase.
I grew up in the Silver Age, but even then it was to 'white boy power' based for my comfort. I'm an IDIC type.
Posted by Otto Plastino on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Ggrrrrrr...Don't Mess With The Wolf Or You'll Get Bit!
Agreed!
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
I really like Brin's personality, too. He's changed a LOT.
At first he was kinda quiet and sad. He spent most of his time with Ayla. He had his lotus fruit addiction, which I know messed with his Zuunium treatments.
He got all feral somehow, but it seemed to wake him up. He was more active, more intense, more passionate.
He got rather serious again, and complained of pain and of wanting to be alone again.
Then he got his surgery to restore his human features. He was happy, enjoying his Legion buddies and splitting from Ayla.
He got a bit goofy then, hanging with Blok a lot, being a little like the clueless type.
He honored his friend Val's request on Lythl. Felt good about that. Started dating again.
Went into a good zone with the Legion.
Then we move into 5YL and he changed even more. At that point, he wasn't Brin anymore. Not really.
Posted by Matthew E on :
I find that Timber Wolf works best when - as in the Levitz era, or under DnA - he's a bit of a doofus.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I actually don't like the doofus portrayal of TW at all. I actually think he should be one of the smarter Legionnaires.
What defines the character for me is the conflict between loner/pack instincts. On the one hand, he embraces the Legion as his family; on the other hand there is a constant feeling of alienation, like he doesn't quite fit in.
Posted by cleome on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
Somebody's been drinking too much coffee, it seems.
Yeah, tell the board something it doesn't know, Sunny.
Posted by cleome on :
(snip)
quote:Originally posted by Quislet, Esq.: Of course, his power did become shape-shifting. But even with shape-shifting, I don't see Chameleon Boy being able to duplicate Timber Wolf's abilities aka acrobatic/agility power.
[nods]
quote:Charles Emerson Winchester III: I can play the notes, but I cannot make MUSIC !!
Posted by Candle on :
My favorite characterization of Brin was during DnAs run, when he's , altwith his pack and protecting Tinya/Cub. I also liked his 'angst' during the TMK era.
I never think of him as a doofus, either although he's sometimes been portrayed as clueless.
That's more Jo 'the Jocks' stick ~ either real or pretend.
Cham's changed a lot over the years, powerwise, really. And it's usually .
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
To me, Giselle seemed to be a total knock-off of Timber Wolf's abilities, and probably his soon-to-be replacement in issue #52 or #53. (Not holding breath to ever see that, however...)
As far as duplication of powers in the Legion, there are quite a few, but how large of a Legion could you possible have if everyone's had to be totally distinct from all others? The numerous Kryptonian/Daxamite heroes always bothered me a little (except in the large group battles) because they can easily dominate the remaining members, but otherwise I think a small overlap lends itself to some interesting scenarios (how heroes with similar strengths react in different ways to a situation - Superboy vs Wildfire was classic) and team cohesion.
Posted by cleome on :
(snip)
Candle:
quote:...Cham's changed a lot over the years, powerwise, really. And it's usually
They just do it to annoy me. [scowl]
And as long as I'm facilitating the descent into free-form griping, I also hate it when she-Durlans are depicted as having hair.
Posted by Ibn al-Nezumi on :
quote:Originally posted by Kid Quislet: To me, Giselle seemed to be a total knock-off of Timber Wolf's abilities, and probably his soon-to-be replacement in issue #52 or #53. (Not holding breath to ever see that, however...)
As far as duplication of powers in the Legion, there are quite a few, but how large of a Legion could you possible have if everyone's had to be totally distinct from all others? The numerous Kryptonian/Daxamite heroes always bothered me a little (except in the large group battles) because they can easily dominate the remaining members, but otherwise I think a small overlap lends itself to some interesting scenarios (how heroes with similar strengths react in different ways to a situation - Superboy vs Wildfire was classic) and team cohesion.
Point taken. But just keep this thread on topic, its my 'beef' that Timber Wolf brings nothing different to the Legion powerwise. I know someone here said to the effect that Brin had 'super-acrobatics,' which sounds cheesy even for me who loves all things Silver Age. With the case of Gazelle, her specific power was conscious metabolic control, meaning she can heighten her physicality and lower it to a death-like state. So she's reasonably distinct powerwise. Just needs a new codename.
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