I rather liked this issue. It wrapped up anumber of plot threads and started the new arc off with a flurry of activity.

M'Rssey is pretty sharp but a little cut throat.

I didn't realize the flight rings could individually be used to home in on each other.

I had a moment of nostalgia when I saw Gim comforting Salu.

The Hussy is back and in fine form!

Any Dream Girl sightings in # 45?

It was shown that they could do that in the Reboot legion, I'm rather suprised ( happily so ) that they can in Threeboot as well.

I'm going to have to pick up this issue sometime soon when I get more money. Thanks for the spoilers Vee!

This was my favorite issue of the Shooter Manapul run...it was really good. IF they can maintain this level of quality in this issue they will give any version of the Legion a run for it's money.


The artwork in particular was extremely Legionny. And I mean that as a high compliment...nice futuristic art, really sleek, not exactly what we've seen from FJM before. But the arhcitecture and style were very much in the tradition of the Grell, Swan and Giffen versions of the big cool looking future. I'm not saying it really looks like those futures...but it has the same feel. Really good stuff this month.

Nice job Frances, it was good to have you back.

Ultra boy has his mojo working. but then considering Saturn Girl's apparent lack of self-esteem, he didn't really work that hard.


It was good to have the regular art work back. I love the running joke of civilians having a LSH guide that tells what everyone can do. Who prints those anyway? I would imagine it's the 31st century equivalent of Legionworld.

Star Boy and Light Lass. It's a pity this version won't last, but it seems to me that given the tremendous power they have, it would be a bad day if either or both went rogue. That's a story I would like to see. Has that happened in the LSH past?

Not that I saw. Although there was a lot of stuff in this issue and I might have missed something.

Good to hear Manapul is back .....his art was sorely missed last issue. i could not stand the art in the last issue. I don't think I will ever read that issue again.

Yeah this was the best issue so far from the current creative team.

Brainy being Brainy and picking up the threads of his Light Lass hate from early in the WaK run.

The Legion getting its independence from the government. The get out of jail free card for their members.

The hussy being the hussy. Strange characterization though, I never figured her for the low self esteem type. I think she's on the verge of a Legion Lost nervous breakdown oh and its Ultra Boy again.

Also the cameo appearances from the characters on the upcoming tryout issue cover.

you know, her going to jo for comfort in legion lost didn't feel so lame to me as in this one. her impetus in that seemed to be actually the EXACT OPPOSITE OF THIS, with garth and her roles reversed. the stress of her leadership position, its complication of her relationship with garth as he craves more attention and commitment?

also, their relationship seems to be described in terms of sex in this. whereas in legion lost, garth just wanted more TIME with her, not sexytime. interestingly enough, later on when imra's locked in a dream world where garth is alive again, they're having a cheerful conversation post-coitus.

in this, garth's in the leadership role and imra's not actually communicating her needs, they're not talking as much, whereas garth in legion lost tells her quite plainly that he wants to talk about their marriage plans and what's going on with them (all the while carefully cultivating garden ;_; and we all remembered suddenly that garth has a green thumb). imra can't deal with it at the moment because, you know, they're teetering on the edge of destruction....and jo provides a safe outlet for her.

on this end....it's imra's self-esteem that's letting her get trampled on, with a fresh electra complex in place maybe? this... makes no sense. she's a SMOKING HOT GIRL. she's CRAZY pretty, especially how francis draws her she's, to me, easily the most beautiful girl in the comic. so she's a telepath... that's SMOKING HOT. so all she should be hearing all day is "man imra's hot, imra's hot, hottiy-hot-hothothot". self-conscious about her looks makes the least sense possible. any other character, MAYBE?!! but with imra it makes no sense.

man, if she was self conscious because everyone's freaked out by her abilities that'd make a thousand times more sense. my cohort in podcasting points out to me that "hey, starboy was on just as many missions and still went to help out, "ayla was almost raped and still goes to help..." @__@


i think what bothers me here is that the relationships seem centered around and closely correlated to the sex aspect (as a representation of "attention" and "concern"). jo cheers her up by expressing that she's sexually appealing and then by having sex with her (despite her request to "leave her alone" since we all know that "no" means "yes" 9___9). she seems very wary and threatened by jo, and somehow that transforms into "wait, let's make out in the pantry". my cohort also points out "don't they have rooms..."

*sighs* @__@ at least jo's incredibly well drawn.

Salu's characterization is... kind of stupid and immature, but might be applicable. at least she doesn't need gim for comfort @_@ but... gim's... a nice boy. why's he getting the crappy end of the stick? also... man her whole fight was weird? why was she taken out so easily, and that fight lasted like, 3 seconds? bizarre. i feel like the pacing is off, like if that fight was going to be so important it should have lasted longer.

man it's like, i'm SO THERE if he wants salu to have a napoleon complex where she's all freaked out that she was a little person-slave on colu. I'M SO THERE. but then it's executed in like the most.. face-palm-groan manner possible. ;____;

what was up with the... "plot" here?

querl: OH I CAN'T DO IT, I'VE FAILED....wait let me try again...OK I DID IT.

but....
this querl is the loveliest querl in the world~ i like his determined face and his crafty face and his sweaty face

AND THANK GOD FOR MANAPUL. never leave us again ;_; god he draws the cutest imra EVER. EVER. so much so that it makes you want to slap her "WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU THINK YOU LOOK DUMPY, ARE YOU CRAZY?!"

*sigh* man now all i think is "well at least no one was raped". 9__9

soon. soon you will be over ;_; come to me legion of three worlds.

I wonder if Imra's going to do some mind-wiping?

And couldn't she sense Invisible Kid approaching? (Or hear him calling out, for that matter?)

FJM did a bang-up job (Wow!) and Shooter is just writing up a storm He's taking these characters to places they've never been before. It's almost painful to watch Irma succumb to Jo's caddish manipulations, Salu's unquenchable rage at the cop who beat her up and Projectra's intractable arrogance, but it's all fascinating stuff. If what you're seeking is comforting nostalgia and predictable characters mouthing the same old platitudes, this book is not for you. (Plenty of that in LO3W.).

Brainy and M'Rissey earned their salaries today, and then some. Brainy conducting a cosmic symphony to save the solar system is one of the most fantastic concepts I've ever read in a Legion comic.

The last panel -- we should've guessed it was coming but it's still shocking to see and, I dunno, kind of sad. Nothing happy will come of it, least of all for Imra.

Garth + Kin'thea Kieselbach. Am I imaginging things?

The Big Bad speaks and has a name. The surprise is "he" is a "she".

By the way, a slight spoiler concerning Ayla:


It seems that Shooter not handling her near rape with sensitivity was intentional on his part.

Not only was she not fazed in the slightest about her near rape in last months issue...she didn't take any down time when she returned and then went out and saved the Solar System. WIthout a word mentioned about it...


I think the implication here is that..if anyone actually does attempt to rape Ayla she will not only not be terrified, she will most likely laugh and leave them with deep feelings of inadequacy.

He is deliberately characterizing her that way....tough and no excuses. Not even when Brainy melts down.....


I mean you think about what she went through and then went into the pressure cooker of saving the Solar System...and Brainy melts down and basically gives up...and she held him together, when all he's been doing is farting around the clubhouse dealing with white collar issues.


There is not the slightest bit of implied weakness with Ayla...on the contrary, he's definitely trying to make the point she is uncommonly strong. It works for me...

Did anyone else find it odd that Jan was completely unconcerned about Trip's mysterious disappearance?

So my one and only question is Why does Jo look like Grunge from Gen 13 without his trademark suit? ...Seriously tho' not to knock Franxis' work he's got a great style and all but..yeah. Wonky.

i'm really not of the school of thought that pretending a rape didn't happen and ignoring it are signs of a strong personality. it's a traumatizing experience that does change a person, both psychologically and biologically. i don't think ignoring a healing process is very....healthy. i wouldn't call "hey, i was nearly raped" an "excuse"

and she looked pretty terrified at the time seeing as how she was crying all the way through it...

i'd say her body language suggests otherwise. i don't know if that's manapul on his own or a shooter suggestion, but look how she's holding herself when she came out of there, she has the same self-conscious body language that imra does. we'll find out if he does anything with it soon.

Well there is a modern school of thought that actually reliving trauma and trying to recall it does more damage than good. It's something being considered now in some circles. And I dont' really get the impression she is pretending it didn't happen...more like it's par for the course for her job as a Superhero.


Fair enough though, I see where you are coming from on this angle, and there might be something to it.


What about if she is in fact traumatized by it, and she feels too ashamed to talk about it? And so she's doing just that, acting strong and pretending it didn't bother her, so she can function and do her job.

Isn't that a frequent occurence? That rape or near rape victims don't often come forward and do have difficulty talking about it?

If that is the case then would this be an unrealistic portrayal? I mean would it be realistic for it to be resolved right then there.


Basically vv, I get your point that you'd just rather not see near rape portrayed in comics. I get the point that you don't want to see it period pretty much. But my counter to that is that if you start limiting the types of criminal activity that can be portrayed in comics, then you start limiting the comics. Every crime is offensive to someone, because every crime victimizes someone.

I guess the point I am making is that I don't really want to see creators told what crimes they can and can't depict(within reason) or pressured to not tell certain stories. That seldom makes for a better comic...

AHHH YES SOMEONE ELSE!!

i think he looks a bit like him too! all well... grunge as a squarish nose while i think jo has more of a pointed nose, and he's also taller. the HAIR is the most similar, but i think the thing that makes him the MOST grunge like is that green symbol!!! see because grunge has those green wings? it's the same general shape? also, they have a similar large, shoulder build and that sort of "thug" presence, as well as some scruffiness. reboot jo also had this look, especially in legion lost era he REALLY looked like grunge, though i'm not sure if the coipel model came predates Gen13 or not...

secretly i think they could chill together =3=!!!

i'm fine if it's depicted, as long as it's handled properly because i think it's an important issue. but i don't want it to be tawdry and that happens a lot, you know? i recently read a JLA trade where <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">cheetah almost kills dr. light because he's a rapist, and says something like "what you think i'd roll with that?!"</span></span> i was like ".........YES! AWESOME!! THANK YOU!!" and there's a moment when a couple of the ladies are like "ugh, i know, right ?!!"

i don't have high hopes for shooter and i'm never thrilled when it comes up because... ahh it's like "oh god ;___; this might go so...so badly". i didn't mention it in my GIANT POST OF EXTREME LENGTH because i'm willing to hold my breath and wait and see if he does anything with it. shooter's pretty slow so it might be...next year that he addresses it. if he addresses it.

the body language thing suggests he MIGHT... MAYBE if that was HIM and not manapul. so for now i'm just waiting to see how its treated.

LOL ok. So it really is all about how it's done. Fair enough.

I kinda noticed the body language thing too when I went back and read it, and she did seem kind of worn down. I still thought it was impressive that she was one of the ones that didn't immediately stand down, tht was the main thing I noticed and believe me, I was watching after last months discussion lol. It's not that I don't think she didn't want some downtime, she just seemed bound to her duty. But you definitely might be onto something there about her holding something back and there might be some reprecussions down the road from this.

Interesting that some of you read the Brainy sequence as him having a meltdown and giving up. I read it as another of his master manipulations to get Ayla & Thom to try even harder so that he would have the sufficient power available to succeed.

Yeah Vee, I saw it as his unique motivational technique as well. He's a regular Tony Robbins... of Space.

His statement that it was 'too late' was obviously untrue. If it really was too late he would not have tried again.

I don't think there was any 'no means yes' here. She just changed her mind, that's all.

Because he knew that the only way to get enough power out of Star Boy and Light Lass was to get them angry at him, so they'd reach back for that little extra. That whole part where he said 'it's too little, too late' was just to fake them out. Obviously it wasn't too late yet.'

And it was a nice callback to the Colu issue back in the Lemnos arc!

Wow, Shooter continues to make me dislike his writing more and more. This issue made me eager to close the door on threeboot altogether, and that's sad because I had such high hopes for it. The Imra/Jo stuff is just intolerable. It's not like we haven't had Imra/Garth troubles before ("Cold and Lonely Corner of Hell", "Legion Lost"), but there things were believable and in character, here the motivation was weak and it made Imra look weak. Even worse that he combined it with my other least favorite plotline: Shooters continued depiction of Ultra-macho-@$$hole with all the girls swooning for it.

For me so far, there hasn't been one character with the exception of Brainy and maybe Garth that Shooter's got right yet. Just keep him away from Phantom Girl for the next five issues please.

I also didn't like the Saturn Girl/Ultra Boy tryst. As you say "been there, seen that". It does seem gratuitous and done just to back up Shooter's much much earlier idea that the Legionnaires would be doing it like bunnies. Also, we didn't need to see them naked in the pantry. We figured it out when Lightning Lad tried to call Ultra Boy and his ring was turned off. Just thinking now, a better story plot would have been for someone to be looking for Saturn Girl as well. Then with no confirmation (i.e. the pantry scene), the readers would have been left to debate "Did something happen or didn't it?".

That's a good point, except that the way it is it puts Invisible Kid in a pretty tough spot, which brings its own possibilities with it.

Except, haven't we already seen in the Threeboot, Invisible Kid caught in the middle of such a dilemma (albeit non-sexual) where he is forced to decide between siding with one Legionnaire against another?

Exactly! This makes it tougher for him, because it didn't turn out well for him the first time, so now what's he going to do?

What Imra did was *irrational*. Some fitting definitions are: “Not endowed with normal reason”. “Marked by the loss of usual mental clarity and sound judgment”.

Seeking logical motives for someone’s irrational behavior or complaining they are acting out of character is kind of beside the point. Of course they are behaving out of character -- that’s what “irrational” means. Even strong, smart, comptent people like Imra are capable of doing unbelievably stupid and harmful things they can’t explain to anyone, much less to themselves.

Imo, the story isn’t what drove Imra to cheat on her boyfriend with someone she knows is a scumbag swine or if she gets caught (she does), but how she carries the consequences of her actions. This is going to be a test of her character – possibly the toughest she’s ever had.

It’s probably also a test of Lightning Lad’s strength of character, which thus far has been open to question. I can’t vouch for Imra but I’m fairly confident he’ll pass the test, as heartbreaking as it will be for him. What doesn’t kill you can make you stronger.

I don't think there will be any serious or lasting consequences for Jo, whose just acting here as an amoral agent of chaos. He'd hump anything vaguely humanoid that had one head and two boobs -- but that's been his characterization all along, like it or not.

I don't find any good basis for her to succumb to this irrational behavior though. Before this issue, all we see is some strain in their relationship over his leadership duties (in the creepy "submissive" conversation), and then off to her leading a harrowing mission to Rimbor. But it isn't until this issue that we see her with self-esteem issues and vulnerable (and/or willing) to be taken advantage of over it. That's not Saturn Girl. It just doesn't fly.

In prior versions of the story, we had original Imra trapped on an asteroid after her team was knocked around by the Khunds, almost started a war, convinced she and her teammates were done for, and then succumbing to the only comfort she had left (Timber Wolf). In Legion Lost, we had her cracking under the pressures of leadership, prolonged use of her powers and an extended period of time impersonating Ultra Boy's Wife. Both of those were extreme situations that drive people to irrational but understandable actions. I see nothing here that even comes close.

I'm also a little perturbed that the two characters that break down after this mission are the females (Atom Girl and Imra), while the guys shrug it off and get on with oggling Shadow Lass and comforting the women folk. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

if we use 'irrational' as an excuse, then shooter could just have the characters do anything forever and ever and never get called on it? no, doesn't work that way. and he doesn't get any points for making the GIRLS the only ones that are 'irrational' here.

and yes i do find a representation of the "no means yes" model. she's very clearly threatened by his presence and specifically by his sexual thoughts about her. even more gross when we consider that she's already feeling violated by him suddenly bringing to light her psychoses. being both psychologically and sexually threatened in this situation she repeatedly tells him to shut up, go away, that she would never do "that" (have sex with him, being the implication i think we can ALL agree, yes?). she also says to stop looking at her, and reminds him that she has a significant other.

jo shows an understanding that she's saying 'no, i don't want to have sex with you" when he replies that "don't worry" he doesn't mess around with other guys' girls. which is OH SO WONDERFUL, so if she didn't have a boyfriend, it would be ultra-rape time, jo? just... awesome.

BUT JO DOES MESS AROUND WITH "OTHER GUYS' GIRLS". (note that imra's categorize in jo's mind as belonging to someone else, not 'i don't mess around with girls that say no and tell me repeatedly to go away'). but don't worry, reader, shooter has thought of this, and makes sure that imra realizes that, even though jo's been a giant jerk to her and much too personable with an extra helping of CREEPY, that she totally DOES wnat to have sex with him. even though she just said "no" in a billion different ways. i mean girls don't know what they want, right?

you know what? think about if jo was your coworker. imagine some big dude comes up to you, in the middle of an earthquake, and starts claiming you have all these psychological problems, starts telling you how sexy you are, that your boyfriend sucks. you repeatedly tell him to go away, that he's creeping you out. do you think that would actually end with making out in the pantry?

you know he ALMOST had me. ALMOST. when jo started out by following her there and calling her out and saying her boyfriend is sucking really hard. so he saw she was upset, so she followed to make sure she was ok? awesome! billion points more than garth, right? he's paying attention to her, and they ALMOST start to have a conversation.

but... no. no. it spirals into "don't worry imra, i think you're HOT." UGHGGHH "WHAT REALLY?" "hey lets go have sex" "no WAY you're so gross!....wait. okay."

*sobs* blehhhh ;_; i would be so much more "seduced" by jo if he'd been TALKING WITH HER instead of AT HER. if he'd kept asking what was up with her and garth. if they'd had a NICE, CUTE conversation and then ended up making out? i'd be ALL FOR IT. but if imra just wants someone to tell her she's hot and have sex with her, ANY OF THE PEOPLE ON HER TEAM CAN DO THAT. PROBABLY IN A BETTER MANNER. SEEING AS HOW SHE'S SUPER HOT?!!

i want the next panel at the end to be lyle just taking pictures with his ring. "blackmail time :0"

veryvery,

A good detailed analysis. Summed up: Bad writing.

Well said veryvery

Or a badly skewed review. To each its own. I find their portraits quite on the mark, much more teenager-like than Archie Legion (which was two-dimensional) and better than Waid's everybody-is-the-same-save-for-nickname characterization. They are supposed to act hormonal, irrational, extreme... They are adolescents! They are supposed to be doubtful, exaggerated and sometimes plain dumb.
Adriana, sometimes you are placing yourself AS the character, such as "if I were there, I wouldn't be doing that or none of my friends". Rouge: this is not Archie Legion Imra. Shooter is free to do a brand new Imra for all we know about threeboot - there is no canon.
Off-character is Ron Marz doing Green Lantern. Or Brad Meltzer doing Blue Beetle on Identity Crisis. Here, they changed everything about an existing character by butchering or ignoring whatever came before. Hardly Shooter's case.

He certainly is, and I am free to think it's a bad character, just as you are free to (repeatedly) denounce the Post-ZH stuff. I just think it's sad that in @ four years this Legion has devolved into a bunch of characters I would gladly toss out the air-lock in favour of Johns' versions. I had high hopes for this reboot and it pains me to see sales drop off like this, but if this is the continued direction, I'd rather see it put to pasture to make way for something more palatable.

Saturn Girl threatened by Ultra Boy's presence?

Never.

I grant you that some of the stuff he said bothered her. And he was clearly being a jerk, and I have a hard time imagining any Imra I've ever read going for a guy like that. But 'threatened'? No way.

(By which I don't mean that Ultra Boy couldn't be threatening; I'm sure he could. I just can't think of a Legionnaire that Saturn Girl *would* ever feel threatened by.)

I'm so annoyed. I just went to my local comic shop and LSH #45 sold out in less than a day. That never happens. Now I have to wait until extra copies come in next week.

I consider this the downside of Lo3W.

Actually, sales are up 8% last month, the highest since the return of Shooter. And I bet it will come up even more this month.
I do give you credit for not enjoying the threeboot - the concept is deeply flawed. Shooter - IMO - saved it by giving character some 3D personalities (that means heroes with moral issues? Yes!). Maybe - maybe - he would hit better if given the original team to deal with.
By the way, so far, Johns has given NO direction for Legion. As much as L3W is good, it has hardly been a Legion story.

I beg to differ. It's very much Saturn Girl - her darkest potential fulfilled.

Imra's a great character because of her moral ambiguity, not in spite of it. Geoff Johns does her a great injustice reducing her to the embodiement of "Truth". That's so wrong. She's a woman who never understood her own mind and heart despite being privy to others. Shooter's obviously read the Asteroid scene with Timber Wolf and the kiss with Ultra Boy in Legion Lost, and asked himself "what if they hadn't been interrupted before going to far?" Certainly, those Imras contemplated (if only fleetingly) doing the dirty deed but were pulled back brink of no return by their writers. Shooter is letting *his* Imra go one step beyond and over the brink.

They are really not so very different from one another, those three Imras. They all turned into basket cases when faced with a crise de coeur and sought comfort in the arms of men who did not love her. They had moments of emotional vulnerability and flirted with self-destructive impluses. All she (collectively speaking) needed was a writer unafraid to let her take that final, fatal step, and examine the painful consequences of her mistake. For years, we've been asking ourselves "Will she, or won't she?" Well, she finally did and now we get to read the story everyone else was afraid to write, but had to be written. Imo.

Bad writing and bad characterization is in the mind of the beholder, I guess. What I'm seeing is a very good writer getting under our skin and making us feel dreadfully uncomfortable for a character who's made a horrible mistake of judgment -- a mistake she's been moving towards for decades over three continuities. Painful as it is, I say it's time we get to see her plunge into the abyss that's been waiting for her so long, and watch as she tries to struggle her way out of it.

If you don't believe Imra can make it back, I think you you know her less well than Shooter does.

Ricardo,

It is not a matter of whether the sales are up or down. rogue, veryvery, & myself have expressed our opinion that the whole scene of Saturn Girl & Ultra Boy was bad. Again - our opinion. Yours is different.

And Lof3W has only had one issue. The whole mini-series is the story.

ricardo: 1) kindly stop referring to me by my first name.

2) stop discrediting everything i say with "oh this is just biased because you hate shooter". i give very detailed explanations of why something doesn't make logical sense to me, thank you very much, and why i consider it bad. you saying "no this character is three dimensional" means nothing if you can't give some examples of whatever's making you think these characters have depth. you're welcome to your opinion but please stop acting like what i say has no correlation to what's going on in the story as if i have no reasoning. in fact, YOU are the one who suffers froma lack of reasoning and it's getting on my nerves that most of your replies to anything i say are "no, this is great, you just hate him".

1) Will do.

2) I didn't say biased against Shooter AT ANY MOMENT. I said I think you are biased towards yourself. Just that. Go read again my message and you will see. Maybe you were thinking about Superboy. By the way, I said I think Shooter is working with MORAL AMBIGUITIES and FLAWS - a point Tromium so much clearer explained later. It's hardly "this is great" for greatness sake. Don't take it personal - I never did. I actually enjoy your opposing views as to why some of my favorite books are failing to grab new readers. Very different perspectives on what makes a good book, a good character and developing plots.

I haven't read the issue for the reasons I've already mentioned, but I wanted to offer some thoughts on the moral ambiguities, which I've discussed in earlier threads.

One of the things that I believe is troubling a lot of readers is that individual Legionnaires have never really been portrayed as morally ambiguous. In the pre-boot, members of the Legion rarely did anything "wrong" and, typically, when they did, it was because they were insane (Braniac 5), had little other alternative (Star Boy), were being forced against their will (Colossal Boy), or were trying to trick the bad guys (too many to mention). In other words, immoral conduct was usually explainable. Rarely did the characters ever have to actually deal with the consequences of significant errors of judgment, particularly vis a vis other Legionnaires. That was a significant part of the rosy future. Admittedly, there was some effort to mature the book during 5YL, but, imo, the "darkness" during that time period was focused more on the universe around the Legionnaires. The Legion members themselves rarely ever made bad moral decisions. Look, for instance, at Venado Bay. One Legionnaire nearly killed another, but instead of that being a conscious decision to put planet over former teammate -- a decision fraught with ramifications -- it was an unknowing action.

Or consider what was probably the biggest morally questionable decision -- Projectra's decision to break Nemesis Kid's neck. That was barely addressed.

The Reboot and Legion Lost also could tried to give a "darker" Legion, but they still made the Legionnaires the moral compass for the universe. As Tromium pointed out,

The Threeboot Legion has forced the members to make more difficult choices. During the Waid run, however, those were primarily decisions directed outside the Legion, and most were made by Rokk (who promptly disappeared) and Brainy (whose conduct is given a shrug because morals don't really factor into his thinking).

But since Shooter has taken over, we have seen a lot of morally ambiguous behavior. Look at the debate when Imra took control of Brin. Brin was the first Legionnaire to ask Imra to use her power on non-Legionnaires. Then, other members were fine with her doing the same on the SPs.

That type of behavior seems far more in-line with who and what the Legionnaires are supposed to be. They are teenagers from diverse backgrounds. They are not mature adults who are all going to have the perfect morals of Eagle Scouts. They are going to make bad decisions, sometimes in ways that hurt one another.

Consider the way Shady and Brin criticized Invisible Kid. That was typical bullying behavior by the "strong" toward the supposedly "weak." We may not like it, but it does feel a lot more realistic to me than if everyone in the Legion was best friends, didn't have cliques, and rarely made value judgments about one another.

Frankly, if the Legion does not build characters with three dimensions and realistic personalities, it cannot survive in the modern world of comic books. Now, I'm not hoping that the Legion suddenly become a group where key characters go insane and destroy worlds or decide to betray the Legion for no apparent reason. I'm just appreciating the depth that Shooter has added to the characters, and that includes the depth that comes with characters making bad -- even irrational -- decisions and having to deal with the repercussions of them.

Finally, I would point out that we have not seen that much of the Imra/Garth relationship in the Threeboot. Other than knowing they were a couple, do we have any sense of: (1) how long they have been together; (2) how strong their relationship is; and (3) what is the basis of their relationship. I think a lot of people are upset about the new development because it is Imra and Garth, who are sacred cows in Legion fandom. Arguably, the Projectra/Brin relationship is as developed as the Garth/Imra one, but I doubt there would be this much of an outcry if one of them cheated on the other.

I have to say that I really enjoyed this issue. In fact, it was the first Shooter issue I found myself really getting into since he started writing the title. It was fun, I was really enjoying the interaction of Brainy's team with the techs and Garth's with the UP leadership. I very much enjoyed the Gim/Vi interaction. It was the most character development either have had for months (possibly years at this point).

Then I got to the Imra/Jo scenes. Ugh. I pretty much agree with veryvery, Quislet and rouge on this. I mean jeez, Shooter really seems to be obsessed with sex. Waid used it early on, but as a dash here and there and not as in your face.

He is also making an Ultra-Boy incredibly un-likeable this run. I haven't liked him at all this run, but now he has just gone over an edge for me to be a complete asshole. I don't know if that is the "in thing" with comics again, to have streetwise anti-heroes, but I certainly don't care for it.

At this point, I am enjoying Projectra's problems more than Jo's being an ass.

Reckless,

Good points. However I disagree about this being a good example of showing moral ambiguity. The scene and issue of Saturn Girl using mind control and dwelving into people's thoughts was handled good. It definitely seemed in character for Saturn Girl. This I don't think was. It was done too quickly. It seemed unbelievable that someone supposedly exhausted from a previous mission and in a relationship would so quickly have sex with someone else. And I doubt "You think you aren't pretty and you aren't, but I like how you look" is a really successful pick-up line. Especially given the fact that Irma is pretty.

I don't mind moral ambiguity, but this just falls too flat for me.

Yeah after reading it again that's the only thing that makes sense. When I first read it though I simply didn't think it was that out of character for Brainy to react the way he did.

I missed a few things on the first read, like also that Ayala didn't have anything to do with Brainy attempting the save again...I think I missed a lot of stuff because I enjoyed the issue so much I didn't really analyze it much at the time I was reading it....


Oh my .02 on Garth and Imra...I don't really like what Imra did, at the same time, that is one relationship I personally am burnt out on. I think it hurts both characters that they are just assumed to be togther in every incarnation....breaking them up is one of my favorite things Shooter has done if only for the sake of making things a little less predictable.

on a second look through I noticed someone holding a sign that said the end is near(when Projectra and Phantom Girl are flying over the city. the sign was written in english and not Interlac. I suppose the better in joke would be for the sign to be in interlac, but oh well.

and the Bludgeon Brothers reminded me of Marvel's Blood Brothers.

Imperatrix. So I am guessing the being on that planet is female.

Could be a big rabbit.

a lot going on this issue. my main take away was, geez i'm not sure i like these people.
i agree with everyone who feels Imra was acting way out of character. it isn't how i think of S.G. in any 'boot. she's always been the type A legionnaire, always on duty to the neglect of personal. it's shocking that she would say no to a team mission. shooter is playing with that and showing how it's taking it's toll on her. is she having a bit of a nervous breakdown?
i could characterize what's happening with Projectra the same way. she's barely recognizable as the same character let alone a hero. Atom Girl is also rude and unbalanced.
i was shocked at Element Lad calling LL an idiot. that doesn't sound like Jan in any 'boot. i thought that Lightning Lad was unbelievably uncaring when his lover is admitting she is too exhausted to go on duty and needs a break. and what was all his moony eyed flirting with the president? isn't she middle aged?
Ultra Boy is a jerk and i'm sick of him. wish he'd fall in love with Tinya or something.
my original hope was that shooter had some sort of reason for first Projectra, then Timber Wolf, then Saturn Girl losing control. some sort of evil force infiltrating the legion...
now i'm not so sure.
SG and UB naked in the pantry was over the top. even horny teenagers would go to their room if things got that hot and heavy. taking off his flight ring and missing emergency calls would seem to me to be grounds for getting kicked out of the group. i thought that someone's idea on this board that Jo had ultra-energy pheromones was a great one, but that doesn't really explain Imra's lack of self esteem over her looks of all things. weird.
please let Imperatrix be affecting their personalities!!!

I can think of a lot of students from my former college whose conduct in the library stacks would disprove that theory.

imperatrix sounds an awful lot like....Imperiex? liek to the point where if it's NOT him or something LIKE him i'll be very...confused.

oh blockade boy, i love you. imperiex combined with the trix rabbit, the legion's greatest enemy.

I liked this issue a lot. Manapul's return was welcome. Yeah, there are lots of people not into his style. But, with so much buzz around Legion of Three Worlds and predictions of the demise of this version of the team, it's nice to see him plugging away, working hard, and continuing to develop his vision of the 31st century and the team. It feels fresh and looks good.

Reading the story reminded me of Lard Lad's questions a while back in his roundtable thread about why some people aren't getting into Shooter's return. It seems to be boiling down to the fact that this isn't the Legion that people recognize or feel comfortable with. The personalities are different than previous versions. They are all developing into recognizable characters in their own right. They are becoming more interesting to me with each issue.

FYI gang,
I haven't picked this issue up yet, but your discussion about it has me very intrigued.

I'll post again when I read it.

Yep, or rooftops...

Like Sketch Lad, I haven't read the issue yet but the discussion is certainly interesting. The first thing that comes to mind regarding Imra is somebody's mind controlling her - and maybe other legionnaires - not totally, just to put them off balance.

However, reckless made very interesting points which apply to the whole series, that these legionnaires are more ambiguous morally than in the past versions. Whether or not that's the explanation for Imra's behaviour, time may tell (or not). I wouldn't mind seeing at least one happy, stable couple, though.

No, it should be a panel remimiscent of the confrontation scene ENB scripted from ADVENTURE #351--Lyle knocking U-Boy on his naked ass!! Something else else Garth will probably due in the very near future...

Have thought that for months. On Triton when Imra mindlinked with Giselle, SOMETHING happened between the two. Giselle underwent a physical transformation and became much more assured. Imra has sprialled down into a mess. That cannot be mere coincidece can it?

I was thinking something similar with her having tried to read the minds of the life eradicators.

Do Projectra and Brin count? Since I haven't read this issue yet, I don't know if anything happened to their relationship in it, but they have been pretty consistent and have shown that they would do a lot for one another -- Jeckie letting the "peasant" tourists take her picture for Brin; Brin following Jeckie to the center of town and also completely calming down after his fight with Imra and Tinya when she comes in. They certainly seem to improve when they are together. I wonder if Shooter sees some irony in taking two of the most dysfunctional characters in the group and putting them in what appears to be an almost healthy relationship, while the relationship between the supposedly stable Imra and Garth may be on the rocks.

The Imra mindlinking idea is intriguing. Out of curiousity, could there be a spiralling effect that might be influencing other members? She tamped down Brin right after that. Has she influenced any other members who have shown odd or irrational behavior? (I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of this, because it provides a convenient excuse for Imra's cheating and provides an easy "out" when it comes to actually dealing with the consequences of cheating on Garth.)

Hey, as a middle-age woman and on behalf of all middle-aged women everywhere in the galaxy, I resemble that remark!

Come to think of it, she does look like Action Imra.

Nix on the mind-linking idea. Shooter won’t let Imra off the hook so easily, but he will make us feel sorry for her before it's all over.

Neither here nor there, and I haven't even read the issue yet, but how about: Tenzil. Not physically threatened, or scared even, but threatened that he could really sum her up in several sentences and possibly be her social undoing if he wanted to? Its possible, but of course, Tenzil would never do that. Obviously not in thus boot, but you weren't limiting your implication to that. Just a thought...

That's an interesting observation!

I'm kind of hoping for something less along the 'ultra-pheremones' line (which sounds creepily like 'ultra-roofies') and something more along the lines of Jo being much like how Trips summed him up much earlier in the threeboot, as intensely emotionally needy / lonely and in the Legion almost entirely because of his need to be surrounded by a 'gang.'

Saturn Girls reactions are all over the map, much like Garth's seemed to have been earlier. Almost everyone on the team has been yawing between reasonable and out of control.

1) Invisible Kid threw a completely out-of-character hissy fit last issue (even if it was well-deserved).

2) Projectra has gone from Cordelia-esque to petty thievery and even assault.

3) Brin has gone from 'grouchy loner' to 'psychotic nutjob.'

4) Brainy 'gives up' and then doesn't give up.

5) Ayla's having a crying fit and then 'over it.'

6) Garth is 'incompetent' and 'weak-minded,' and then decisive and in-control.

7) Imra is in control and then wildly out-of-control.

8) Atom Girl goes from probably the most confident and self-assured Legionnaire to breaking down.

9) Element Lad goes from being the voice of moderation, always spouting platitudes when he should be fighting, to calling Garth an idiot to his face.

10) Trips insults Invisible Kid, complaining that he doesn't even belong on a mission.

11) Karate Kid flips out and destroys the comm-robot while threatening Lightning Lad about his mission selection that endangered Trips.

12) Ultra Boy is all, "Oh, I don't do that." and four pages later is 'doing that.'

That leaves, what, Chameleon, Phantom Girl, Shadow Lass, Colossal Boy and Star Boy, as the only Legionnaires who *haven't* behaved noticeably, even suspiciously, out-of-character in the last six issues?

Someone, methinks, is attempting to destroy the Legion from within. This isn't just 'oh, Saturn Girl is having a breakdown.' It's Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad, Element Lad, Brainiac Five, Projectra, Timber Wolf, Ultra Boy, Triplicate Girl, Invisible Kid, Karate Kid *and* Atom Girl, all acting 'oddly.'

What are the chances that any writer would screw up *his own characterizations* on almost every character? I might be seeing a pattern where none exists, but, at this point, I suspect that we are way past coincidence and well into enemy action...

set: interesting theory.

yet...

i find it telling that none of us can tell if they're acting strange on purpose or if this is badly written.

Obviously those aren't the only 2 choices, because some people have expressed how they're enjoying this era of characterization.

If they are being portrayed differently from other eras or if they are acting more extremely due to villainy is hardly about bad writing. It's about being different from expected. So, there are obviously more than two options.

Maybe like this guy .

The point remains that it could just be bad writing. I know as a long time reader of comics (not just the Legion) I have seen my share of bad writing. Unless I see more in future issues, I'm leaning towards bad writing.

Yep, or a stairwell in a hostel in Copenhagen with that Australian girl or... uh I mean uh... it could happen.

I'm with Set.
Something else else is wrong in this Legion.
Maybe a bad aura like the short story of Duo Damsel in Action Comics.
I'm worry about Projectra. She need to be in control again. It's my favorite female legionnaire.
The Imra-Jo affair is a logical option, but what about Shaddy? In the Waid run she is the Jo's couple.
And nobody notice the Nigth Girl's costume and hairdo are different from the 48's cover?
And again ....
Where are Sun Boy, Tenzil, Wildfire and Dream Boy?

There also seems to be a lot of "dark" forces on DC books recently as an overall tone (even Teen Titans) and lots of characters' misplacements in time. Could be all part of Final Crisis reshaping of DC books too.

I had basically the same reaction... this issue left a bad taste in my mouth. I've liked some versions of the Legion better than others, liked some legionnaires themselves better than others but I've never before put a Legion comic down after reading and thought "I don't like these people".

Projectra is being TOO imperious... it's just not interesting and seems like lazy writing/characterization. Imra's behaviour is beyond belief. I too would have liked a word of concern from "El" about "Trips". Who are these people?

I remember being stunned when I found out those early Adventure stories by Shooter were written by a 13 year old. But they seem more on target with true emotion than his current writing does.

I'm hoping this issue is just one minor set back as I've enjoyed Shooter's take on this Legion up until now.

"Dear Time Trapper, can you please take time out of your Lo3W appearance and wipe this issue out of current continuity? Thank you."

i'd be more inclined to believe the "evil is afoot" theory if some of the characters were going "hey, Whatever Lass is acting pretty strange recently". other than IN THIS ISSUE phantom girl going "wtf, jeckie :/", i haven't seen anything.

i HOPE evil is afoot. i truly, truly wish it was. if it is, i'll like these books a lot better.

Projectra. We haven't(and guess we won't without flashbacks) seen life on her world. Maybe there was a deep social divide and having a nasty attitude towards commoners was natural. As for why it's so pronounced now, she has lost everything. No longer a diplomat, the money seized, etc, etc. maybe this attitude is her defensive shell against all of the terrible changes in her life.

As for Saturn Girl and Ultra Boy, well I don't see a wedding ring on either hand. What's the problem?

As for not liking them, well they are rather heroic. The snotty Projectra fought against Lemnos, and arranged for those looters to be arrested by the Sci-Police.

and lets not forget that all of them have in recent issues have put their butts on the line, despite facing death on worlds they don't come from, and dealing with a ungrateful and sneaky government. and in the face of all of that they continue to fight and try to make their galaxy a better place to live.

I like these guys. They aren't lucky charms sweet, but neither are they over the top nasty like the Boys. long live the legion. so say we all.

Well you guys, I think it's good writing.

I fully expected to read this issue, and be stunned by all the terrible depictions of the Legionnaires and I wasn't.

First of all, I'm a M'rrisey fan. I love what he's done so far and I loved this speed-negotiation with the president. He's a keeper!

I'm not used to Saturn Girl saying no to a mission, but it was appropriate, here. Is Garth being too hard on her to show that he's not giving her preferential treatment because she's his girlfriend? Good question. Good writing.

This is not Shrinking Violet. Atom Girl is mad that she got hurt in a fight and that the fight was interrupted. Gim's pep talk wasn't good enough. This story will continue....

Brainy is totally rude and totally effective.

I like that Garth calls the president by her first name. Cocky, confident. Are they flirting? Not sure. I'm curious. Good writing.

Imra/Jo. They're attracted to each other. He's just totally going for it, pushing buttons, being brazen. He's dipping her pigtails in the inkwell. She's insulted. She's coy. She's repulsed. Then the quakes. He shows concern for her. He shows concern for the facility. She says "no... wait." OMG, get a room... and they sorta do... the pantry. The problem is that she's "with" Garth. We'll just have to see how that part plays out. I'm interested. I think it's good writing and I'm a lifelong Saturn Girl fan. I expected to be grossed out or outraged. I'm not.

What I don't like is this Peasant-hater Projectra. However, like wamu2 says above, she's been through a lot. Again, I want to know what's next for her.

The scene with LL and El had plenty of Legion-y fun.

Brainy wasn't as rude when he delivered the goods, with the aid of exhausted Ayla and Thom. I love that the next step was.... wait for it... communication! I'm a Lafong fan!

I liked this issue. I guess I'll have to read the spoilers beforehand more often!

So, I've taken to getting LSH issues when I go to the comic book store for other things. That way I can put the threeboot out of my mind by reading what else I picked up. But I was shopping nearby yesterday so I went in to pick up just this latest issue. That was a mistake.

In the space of a few pages, Saturn Girl went from one of the DC Universe's pioneering female heroes to just pathetic.

Brainy's "manipulation" of Star Boy and Light Lass was so transparent that it's hard to believe they didn't just roll their eyes and agree with each other to play along with his drama.

Though I'm disliking these characters more and more, I've usually been able to enjoy Mr. Shooter's issues because of the quick action and tendency to show a broad cast of legionnaires (some of whom I can still like). But the action in this issue was Brainy sitting in a chair or acting like a twit and other legionnaires not getting really worked up about the latest crisis. Thank goodness I still got to see a few palatable depictions of other legionnaires.

But, what really saved the issue for me is that I care so little about the threeboot. Dress Saturn Girl up as French maid and chain her to a bed next issue. You might as well have some fun ruining it all for me.

Wow, APB,this is a case where I really wonder why someone would continue to waste their time and money. I guess it makes for dramatic message board posts.

I think the French Maid is the chainer, not the chainee. Each to their own fantasy I suppose.

I like a complete collection. And, believe it or not, I'm an optimist (and a perfectionist, which makes for endless disappointment).

I can certainly understand that. That's why I've stuck it out all these years, too. The idea of missing even something terrible is worse than the prospect of never seeing it for myself.

Well, here's to next issue!

right now i feel a weird sense of guilt if i don't buy LSH. i buy one for my self and one for my cohort. if there's variant covers that means i'm buying four issues. as much as it's rubbing me the wrong way, i don't want legion to get canceled and i like manapul's art. if i could only buy copies that had no words...

Great issue.
Beautiful splash page!
Francis, your version of Garth is stunningly attractive.
I found the Imra/Jo scenes fascinating.
It seems Imra is ashamed of her carnal feelings and wanted to be caught. Hence,the pantry & letting herself get caught in the act by Lyle.
Brainy's manipulation of Ayla & Thom was hysterical, especially the panel of him smirking while saying "FEH!"
M'rr'ssy atoned for his unbearable smugness in the beginning of the issue by looking so adorable near the end, reading his comic book in his fuzzy socks.
Finally, while three pages of Gim topless is a nice start, lets see if we can get that up to a full twenty-two. please?

Thoroughly enjoyed this issue - loads of character work, absolutely beautiful art (like El's new interlac 'e' clasp for his cloak) and I couldn't find a colouring mistake (a first!).

I don't understand why everyone is getting so upset about Imra and Jo's little encounter - they are healthy teenagers (read - walking hormones!) in a tough situation - he's always been shown in the 3boot as a total flirt and she's stressed and trying to deal with an unhappy relationship. And given that Shady was a bit flirty with TW maybe UB and Shady have a fairly open relationship - could we be seeing the beginning of the Legion's first openly polygamous relationship.


Brainy was great, M'Rissey was great, Garth was great, Gim and Salu were great, it was all great IMO! I hope they keep up this quality of work for as long as possible.

My guess is Shooter is trying to do three things with these "different pairings".

1. He's trying to give the readers something new.

2. He's letting the characters experiment with relationships prior to really finding their one true love.

3. He sees the personalities different than many readers do and as a result we see Saturn Girl being projected with a low self-esteem.

Though I haven't yet read the issue panel by panel, I did give it a good look-over after buying it. I did read the entire Saturn Girl/Ultra Boy kitchen scene and I didn't find it all that odd. The reason is because....Ultra Boy is a womanizer and manipulater, he can read them like a book based on body posture, language, and events occurring around them. He recognizes that Saturn Girl is not being treated the way she would like by Lightning Lad and for his own desires, chose to exploit it. He fed her some lines and because she started listening to him and stopped reading his mind, she fell for them. My guess is she will be hounded with some guilt, I guess we will find out.

I don't think Ultra Boy is being portrayed as someone without a personality at all. In fact because everyone keeps talking about what he's been doing in every issue, how he's manipulating the women tells me that he very much has been given a personality. He's a womanizer, a user, and selfish. Sounds like a personality to me. Are there people like that in the real world? Absolutely. These are the strongest traits of his personality in this series with this author, and so they are standing out.

As for Saturn Girl's personality, she is being portrayed as someone with a lower self-esteen than what most readers are use to. Again, the author is in my opinion trying to branch things out, explore the characters, and give us something new. Whose to say that down the road Shooter doesn't plan on having events boost her self-image so that she later represents what readers are expecting to see based off of previous incarnations of Legion. I see these personality differences and love interest moments as just that....setting things up for the long haul, what readers are use to.

My guess is when Ultra Boy and Phantom Girl get together, Jo will go through some changes to reflect the influence she will have on him. Saturn Girl will eventually receive an image boost from other events yet to take place.

Out of character? No, just working them up to what readers expect in the long run.

Haven't gotten it yet but am enjoying the discussion. Sun Boy as a womenizer, one was enough. "Traditional" Jo was more to my liking, by far, then this one. His behavior had a clear development. His upbringing being rough, parents unavailable, he was loyal to a fault to those with whom he did get close. For his gang or his love he would do about anything.

The premise that he becomes this person after his experience with Saturn Girl is an interesting thought.

The thing is, we know so little about most of the threeboot Legionnaires. I go with the notion that they are similar, but different from the other versions, until I see otherwise.

We did get to see the Imra / Garth hookup of the threeboot, so they are a relatively recent couple, and not at all the Garth and Imra that we grew up with.

After all, this universe has a ginger-haired Mekt who heads up his own non-villain super-team and an Imra whose mom is a UP delegate.

Between Gim's mom, Tinya's mom and threeboot Imra's mom, having a Legionnaire for a child seems to be a good career move, politically.

"Look, I need the public exposure if I'm going to win this election, Lester. Can't you just, I dunno, buy a seat on the Legion?"

If there, hopefully, will be a long run. A lack of classic villains, various counter-rebel kids having scuffles with the rebellious Legion, and just one war. Jim did add a generous amount of (sometimes mis-)characterization within his plot freeze early this year, and with the tie-in to Lo3W coming up... I guess you could say that the post-IC Legion is in the bag. Hope not.

And Jo and Imra hooking up? It better be hormones. But why is it still taboo, ten centuries later? That's a little hard to sell, considering how sexually-saturated society is today.

At least something was brought over from W/K... the Star Boy/Light Lass combo. They do make sense as a strategy in battle (or as physical forces in Brainy's little experiments)... but as living, alien humans... not so much.

As I'm reading the discussion, coming to mind is, the killer with losing Shooter is, I just can't think of a DC writer so good at creating NEW characters with staying power. It took him exactly one page to come up with Giselle and an issue to come up with M'rissey and several others that intrigued the board. Fruit Boy anyone? Johns writes established characters sometimes with greatness (Rogues). Will Shooter's characterizations have staying power if they are generating this much controversy?

The controversy seems to be with his handling of established characters, not the new ones. (one exception was the pirate leader and his mate)

I agree that the complaints are about established characters. However, that complaint bothers me a bit. This is not the preboot or reboot, so Imra is not in a relationship with Garth that has been established as stable. Moreover, one of the gripes I heard about the reboot is that it re-did preboot stories so it seemed like a retread. So now we have Shooter trying to shake things up and give the threeboot characters some characterizations and relationships that conflct with the preboot -- and people are complaining. It seems like a no-win situation for a writer. If you keep things like they were in the preboot, they will be attacked for being unoriginal, but if you change things, you will be attacked for deviating from tradition.

Another very good issue. Lots of fun to read. Interesting sub-plots. Funny to see Jo "experiment" with Imra - reminds me of "A cold and lonely corner of hell" when Timber Wolf (nearly) had his go with Saturn Girl... not so cold over all the continuities, this little telepathic...

The more I am reading Shooters run, the more I am sorry to see it go. I doubt this incarnation will survive L3W, but I also doubt that a new writer could continue Shooters satisfying way of writing - you just have to get a handle on these characters. If you don't have it - like Waid - you're in for disaster...

It is not the strength of Irma's relationship with Garth, but the fact that she is in a relationship. Hussy jokes aside, that would be something important to her. It is more about Irma has always been strong-willed and having a need to be in control. And that has been shown in this version of the Legion. That such a person would so suddenly give in to her emotions and surrender control of a situation, leaving herself vulnerable rings false.


If this had been played out more, I would have believed it better. (I know Shooter doesn't have the time to play it out)

Have we really seen Imra's need for control outside of her "professional" life? Until the scene with Garth a few issues ago (which people criticized for showing Imra as weak), did we ever really see them interact much in private so we could get an understanding of the dynamics of their relationships?

I know a number of highly competent people who are control freaks in business, but do not demand control in their personal lives. In some ways, the need to control their outside lives is an attempt to overcompensate for low self-esteem, which they only reveal in unguarded momenets.

I suspect that people just assumed Imra is always strong-willed and in control, but I'm not sure that is established in this boot. Moreover, to the extent she did exert that control in her personal life, can we say if that control relied on her powers? Who is to say that some of her current behavior may be the result of her inability to control other Legionnaires. Perhaps, in the past, she could have just told Ultra Boy to go away and that would have been the end of any flirtation, i.e., she would never have reached the point of giving in to temptation. He exchange with Garth might also have gone differently and the whole situation could have been avoided. I wouldn't be surprised if some of this has to do with her promising not to tamp down on Legionnaires.

Time constraints or not, Jim is making an effort with making new characterizations with those established Legion themes and players, or any remaining ones that were brought over to Threeboot. But in the case of the Imra/Jo shakeup... I have to concur that it was a little sudden. The buildup in prior issues include one of them being seen in their underwear and that one calling the other a "boss-babe". But for a potentially fourteen issue long run, JS is packing a lot to give threeboot the right treatment.

I really enjoyed it! I echo many of the positive remarks here. Thankfully fjm is back! Great art!

Glad to see a triangle between Jo-Imra-Garth. The old one with Timberwolf was very Wolverine-Jean Grey-Cyclops (though them being in laws almost really made it more interesting).

Is Shooter setting us up for a bigger team? We see the Legion really getting taxed here. I really hope so. I don't mind the 50 member roster! It's a big universe.

I haven't read this issue yet but when I read here about Saturn Girl and Ultra Boy and when I read in earlier issues Saturn Girl's attraction to him, it occured to me that at one point during the dreadful Mon-El story arc that Phantom Girl and Saturn Girl kind of merged to be able to talk to Mon-El and maybe that merging had some lasting effects.

someone posted this link in response to the imra-jo situation over on scans_daily, with indication towards the part on "negs"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community#Interacting_with_women

oh my GOD @__________@!!

if shooter is having jo use this on purpose and then imra figures it out and, i dunno, kills him? horribly? then it'd be okay. does anyone think it's going this way? maybe? god, i wish. but...

man i cannot get over the fact that she's SUPER CRAZY HOT and a TELEPATH and somehow doesn't know she's hot.

like... honestly i'd accept this characterization from ANYONE NOT A TELEPATH. it just doesn't make sense guys, even if someone IS a teenager @__@

it either means imra IS dumpy and ugly, or that she's not and she hears people thinking she's hot CONSTANTLY and disregards it and is completely insane.

*sobs* ahhh god. so painful.

you know i'm FINE if they break up, i'm fine if she sleeps with jo, if she sleeps with querl and lyle to boot. just... make it... make sense.

you know people can dislike writing because of the style, or because of the things that happen (i love couple B but they just write about couple X, etc, I wish ferro would come back, WHATEVER), but i'm really disliking this writing because there's no consistency or common sense going on. i wouldn't care if they were fighting a planet full of clowns and dressed like giant starros, as long as they behaved in a way that made sense.

Ah! Now that's one I hadn't thought of. We haven't seen that Phantom Girl has any interest in Ultra Boy in this version, but she could harbour some deep emotions. I guess any external explanation for Imra's behaviour (this, or some mind control) makes more sense to me than the idea that she really has the hots for Jo, or is seeking self-esteem through casual sex.

Seem to recall a threeboot scene where an SP Offcial claimed half the UP Council had kids who were Legionnaires. Of the core group only Saturn Girl's has been verified, but there was an adult Durlan depicted in that panel.

This would only really apply if Jo has the power to control his thoughts and trick Saturn Girl into reading his 'fake thoughts,' since he *says* that Imra is a babe (the exact opposite of the 'neg' strategy you referenced, meaning that if he's a 'playa,' he's doing it exactly backwards!), while he *thinks* that Imra is 'dumpy,' as she points out.

He's not the one who applies the 'neg.' She is the one who brings out the word dumpy, and, when called on it, he *still* tries to soft-pedal it by saying that she's attractive anyway.

And she's *still* reading his surface thoughts during the conversation. "You think I'm dumpy!" "Ew, stop thinking that!" So he'd not only have to be able to fool a telepath with the initial delivery, but maintain the deception, even while using his ultra-speed later in the scene, indicating that it isn't one of his ultra-powers, but something else entirely. [Maybe he's a Skrull?]

If Jo were using a 'neg' as described in the article, he would have walked into the room and said, 'Wow, you look like hell. You should go to the med-suite.' to tear down her self-confidence and put her on the defensive from the start, while then backpedaling from her reaction and acting genuinely concerned with how exhausted and beatup she looks, thus manipulating her into getting agitated (physically aroused) and then just as quickly shutting her down and making her feel guilty for biting his head off for expressing concern, leaving her in a heightened emotional state, but with nowhere to 'put' those feelings, and therefore, more likely to be physically attracted (misattributed arousal, or the famous 'makeup sex' where a couple get in screaming matches every Thursday so that they can have smoking hot sex on Saturday, sublimating the energy and 'passion' of their anger into their sex), while also being more likely to experience a 'social exchange' reaction (popular sales technique where you do something unsolicited for someone, and then take advantage of their gratitude to pressure them to do something for you, which, in pick-up terms, would be sending a free drink to the table of a girl, in hopes that she'll feel obligated to talk to you) and a nagging guilty need to reward the dude whose head she just got manipulated into biting off, exactly as he intended.

The 'artist' makes the target feel like it's her fault that she took his innocent comment wrong, *and* gets her fight-and-flight worked up, because arousal is the same physical reaction, regardless of whether one is scared, angry or horny, and getting someone scared or angry, and then switching gears and taking away whatever made them scared or angry, but leaving their heart pounding and their body 'all fired up with nowhere to go,' is a common way to get someone in bed, whether it's a couple that fights all the time or some teenagers who dare each other to go to horror movies.

Jo's clearly not 'doing it right,' according to the article. If Shooter is trying to portray Jo as a 'pickup artist,' he's apparently not read this article, because Jo not only is doing it wrong, he's doing *the opposite* of what is recommended.

And that sort of stuff wouldn't work on a woman able to read your surface thoughts anyway, since it's impossible to fool her in this way, as she outright proves when she calls him on what he's really thinking, as opposed to what he's saying.

That Jo didn’t do it “right” yet succeeded beyond his wildest imaginings should tall us something.

Though the possible underlying causes are multitudinous and still pretty fuzzy (we shouldn’t expect Shooter to lay all his cards on the table so early in the game), the growing opinion seems to be that Imra is not in her right mind. There are enough clues in this issue to make it a solid theory, anyway,

Jo’s an animal but he’s not a monster. I predict he’s going to feel pretty goddamn lousy when he realizes he hit on a “sick” woman, and he’ll try to right his wrongs somehow. That’s my hypothesis of the month.

It tells *me* that Jo wasn't the one who called Imra back into that room. Imra is the one who made the decision. I don't see Imra as a victim (and certainly not a victim of mental manipulation by that legendary psychological mastermind Jo!), I see her as a young woman who made a choice.

Was it a great choice? Who knows?

Hopefully nobody is ready to judge her for making it, as if the little lady doesn't have the right to choose for herself or should be judged based on her sex choices.

Garth has been a pretty lousy boyfriend lately. Jo certainly doesn't seem like he'd be a step up, so she seems to be jumping from a frying pan into a fire, here, but the choice is hers.

There's only one person in that room that could make that choice for her, and, somewhat ironically, the only person on the team who could make a choice like that for someone else (not that I think she ever would), happens to be Imra herself.

Do I think Jo's a great choice or 'Mr. Right?' Nope. But he is 'Mr. Right Now.' And I don't think Imra is 'sick' for making that choice, anymore than I think Ayla or Tasmia are 'sick' for having also made that choice.

It's not like Imra's married, and it's not like she's been getting anything but neglect from her boyfriend.

*I* think that Imra's made an impulsive choice that isn't going to lead to any sort of long-term happiness (nor, frankly, do I think Imra *expects* any sort of long-term relationship with Jo!), but I wouldn't feel comfortable judging a woman's mental health or morality or whatever based on that sort of thing.

“Sick” was too strong a word. ‘Traumatized” is better.

Long time ago, Shooter conferred with a psychologist (or was it a psychiatrist?) before writing the scene where Hank Pym slaps Jan Van Dyke to ensure he was working on firm psychological ground. Hank’s wasn’t “sick” but, as Shooter explained later, his state of mind was deeply affected by his previous failures to the point he wasn't in complete control of his faculties. (Unfortunately, later writers made that scene the sum and substance of Pym and he spiraled into a practically unusable character, something Shooter didn’t intend when he wrote it.)

So for you or anyone to brush off the contributory role of mental and physical trauma in Imra’s situation is premature in light of Shooter’s demonstrated interest in probing the problems and complexities of the psyche.

That being said, I do agree Imra won't escape responsibility for her actions, nor should she get away scot free. I think the real story is how she deals with the consequences– or not – and how the schism between the two founders will effect the entire team in the face of mortal danger from beyond. Now, *that’s* the stuff of good writing, imo.

I'm sure Imra knows that she is considered attractive by human standards. She's attracted to the bad boy even though she knows she shouldn't be. When she says "don't look at me" and "you think I'm dumpy" well.... I just see that as fishing for compliments.

Also, maybe Jo never noticed her before with the cape on and the hair pinned up. Her new costume emphasizes the hourglass figure and nowadays her blond hair is longer and is free flowing. She does look hotter.

Has anyone seen this? An italian zine has posted 2 script pages from LSH #45 and, as you can see, Shooter is pretty full on them. This might hold further accusations of bad writing from him...

English version is a the bottom of the page. I found it really enlightning. There is also a long interview about his career at the same place. Thanks to Legion Outpost for the link the first time.

AHHH!! if only we could have the script to the pages with the imra stuff @__@ *fist shaking*

actually... you know i'm wondering if these are the actual script pages that were handed off to the artists...? they sound really strange to me, as in they give a lot of detail that is strange to give an artist. i know every writer is different but... i've never seen a script page like that before! even in you know, those books that have sample scripts and things like panel discussions

and you know, the stuff you get in the back of special edition trades?

the weirdest sounding part is i was actually hoping for some transparency on this line M’RISSEY O-kay…all right, then. because that sounded really weird to me, so much that i thought maybe it was a typo or something, that the ellipsis came at the wrong time or... something?!! it just stuck out to me and i had no idea if he was feeling accomplished or...?

so... i don't know if shooter weirdly writes way, WAY too much info for the poor artist for no reason, or if this was just a doctored up script for the article so it'd read nicer than a boring page of dialogue.

Cool! Thanks. The bit about how the Legion's leadership crisis is inspired by his own experiences is quite englightening.

Another very provocative issue in so many ways. BTW, maybe I'm just an old fogey-prevert, but I thought Shooter's script was pretty standard stuff. The Fonz reference really dates him, but he is old, after all. He put a lot of description into M'Rissey's depiction because that's the new character, it's his scene, and Shooter wants to make sure the scene has the right visual subtext. What's the big deal?

Regarding Imra and Jo...Look, Imra's clearly NOT dumpy, by any absolute measure, but that doesn't mean she has a good self-image. And, compared to Light Lass, Shadow Lass, Princess Projectra, Triplicate (3 Dates at Once) Girl, even Phantom Girl, she has been the most modest and reserved and least glamorous female Legionnaire so far in the 3boot. So, compared to the the immediate competition, she has been kinda hausfrau-y. Whether she is in her right mind or not, I really couldn't say. She's always been the most opaque (or perhaps, complex) character to me over the years, alternately stern and commanding and soft and sexy. Shooter seems to be distilling that tension and channeling it into the current story, which makes perfect sense. Also, Shooter has a well-established if controversial record on the Legionnaires' sex lives being more unconventional and less faithful than standards allowed him or anyone else to portray. And frankly, why wouldn't they, being hot, powerful adolescents living without adult supervision (ever WATCH Real World)? No doubt, though, that this is more than a casual liaison -- we're seeing a real story arc with Imra here, which, panel hog or no, I always tend to enjoy.

I've read all these posts, and I can't believe nobody has mentioned what I thought was the obvious, maybe too obvious worth mentioning?

-The resemblance of that planet leader lady(forget her name) to whom Garth was obviously attracted, to the adult Imra from the Lightning Saga Action storyline.

Also, although I have nothing against this M'orissy (sp?) character, I find him somewhat redundant. Any of his PR/business stunts could've easily been performed by Brainy. I hope there's another dimension/use for this character.

Duely noted earlier in this and the CTR thread.

She also wears colors associated with Saturn Girl (pink/magenta). Plus, her initials "KK" immediately preceed "LL" in the alphabet and are alliterative, too!

That's Destiny at work (or just me being very weird.)

With the continued use of her first name by Lightning Lad and everyone else using her title, and even with others correcting Lightning Lad on how he addresses her, it certainly suggests that the two are already familiar with one another on a more personal note. I also agree with those that think the issues handled by M'Rissy, they could have just as easily been performed by Brainiac 5 and given the Legion and who's who, I think it would have made more sense. Perhaps this M'Rissy will indeed reveal more of his capabilities later on. Time will tell.

Very interesting. I took Garth calling the Prez by her first name as his complete inability to handle formality and protocol, but I also did note that his folksiness came with a very solicitous, personal concern for her on Garth's part. Of course, the two could go very well together -- Lightning Lad relates to people on a personal level, rather than according to their job or role.

I'm thinking that had Lightning Lad simply been unfamiliar with protocal that the Preseident would have put him in his place and reminded him or her postion of importance.

I kind of like that Brainy is left to his own agenda while M'Rissey gets to deal with the political meanderings on a more day-to-day basis. In fact, it seems M'Rissey is more cunning at this than 3boot Brainy, who is much more extreme and un-political than the original Brainy.
As for Shooter's script, he says in the interview I mentioned this is exactly the script he sends Francis (and praising him a lot at that) and I've seen other writers with the same approach he has (meaning very detailed scripting). Remember that Shooter is also an artist, so he does think visually. And it also proves how much into Legion he still seems to be.

Perhaps M'rissy's role is to be more people smart,given his PR role, over Brainy who will be relegated to being book/tech smart.

I dunno, he handled formality and protocol okay in his past dealings with Ambassador/Councilor Ardeen, but I don't remember him calling her "Sydney".

I'm wondering if Shooter toyed with the provocative idea of a Garth/Sydney liaison before inventing the look-alike President Kieselbach. (Boy, do I have a dirty mind!)

I was thinking that Garth's "complete inability to handle formality and protocal" was a reaction to his previous folding under pressure AND M'Rissey's upstaging of Garth in front of this new president. BTW, where did she come from all of sudden after 45 issues?

Though I'm usually of the mind to let the writer play out their story before offering any criticisms on what they are doing; after reading this issue several times the Ultra Boy/Saturn Girl scenes seem very creepy and out of character the more that I read them. I have been having a problem with the team dynamic in this volume of the LSH and these scenes only add to that problem. If this were some random chick in a bar perhaps I could better understand Jo hitting on her, but this is a team-mate. He is getting into her head not to build her up for future battles together nor to further the team but instead for some quicky? In a pantry? While the world may be coming to an end? It just doesn't work for me. Both Saturn Girl and Ultra Boy should be better than that.

finally got a copy!

The Jo and Imra scene was a bit odd, but I'll get back to that.

The thing that jarred the most in the whole issue was Garth pretty much being a total jerk when he asked Imra to go on the mission. There was no sympathy there for her physical state at all! Rubbish as a leader, rubbish as a boyfriend! And then he just walks off... There was more emotional energy between Gim and Salu. I'm definitely getting the feeling that there's something not quite right at Legion Central - there are too many characters acting a *little* too off, and I don't think it's just LSH v3 character differences or Shooter challenging expectations.

Moan no.2: music of the spheres my @$$. I was hoping for some grand, sweeping artwork and some drama... but we get 5 pages of Star Trek geekisms and Ayla and Thom looking constipated. The balance in the plotlines is not right at the moment...

Jo and Imra.
I liked Imra's truncated style of speech - it makes sense for a telepath for cut to the quick of a conversation, although it could also be her fatigue coming out as well. It also highlights the fact that *technically* Imra is an alien...

For the dumb jock of the group, Jo is very insightful here. Imra doesn't actually deny anything he says. He gets into her head very successfully. Just another aspect of Jo v3, or another sign of something going on with the Legionnaires - an outside influence? There are a lot of small disruptions that are hampering their effectiveness...

"I wouldn't do that..! Never!" what was he thinking? Is Imra suddenly a prude again? She was suggesting S&M stuff with Garth a few issues ago, so why the switch? Maybe Jo is REALLY kinky... but he ran like hell at the thought of group sex with the Trips and the the other lads...
Then: "Don't worry, I don't mess with other guys' girls." ... but then he does... hormones? The Horn? Outside Big Bad manipulating people?
Strange... (and I don't care how into a person you are when you're in The Moment, you'd STOP if you heard someone talking to you outside the door!)

Stupid question: if Action Legion is the 'official' future, as it has Superman in it, why did Supergirl end up in the Threeboot?

First of all, in the dance of human mating it is not unusual for there to be lots of false verbal positionings. I thought Shooter handled that brilliantly.

Re: "Offiical" futures: We don't know yet.

I think I'm more curious as to what Jo was actually thinking about! lol

here Shooter was wise... leaving it to our own perverted imaginations!

The presence of the Life-Eradicator planet drawing closer to (and now inside) their solar system could somehow be eradicating their reason – and in theory its effects would probably hit people with mental powers first and worst – Imra and Projectra. The solicit for #47 suggests that Brainy will be the next Legionnaire to go “mental”.

I’m not advocating this theory as a desirable outcome, but it’s not impossible.

Finally caught up and got to the CBS.

Have to admit, from reading the thread I expected much worse than I got regards Saturn Girl.


Agreed the characterisation doesn't fit most depictions and not this one that has a few years under her belt but not so out of line of what she might have been early on in the last boot. As a kid so different and isolated from everyone else her age on Titan and being shipped off to a foreign culture like Earth and seeing teens in "normal" relationships, I could see how a kid who wasn't making friends, particularly boy/girlfriends might feel dumpy and ugly. In that boot she really hadn't been raised to be confident, that I recall.

I enjoyed the issue and liked most of the set-ups.