Legion World
Posted By: Healex Action Comics -- The Chemical King Conspiracy - 11/02/07 03:32 AM
I have just read Action Comics # 858 and have come to the conclusion that the powers that be at DC have it in for Chemical King. In the 2 page spread that had the Silver Age (Adventure era) Legion, all of them were there except Chemical King. It strikes me odd that Ferro Lad is pictured along with Shadow Lass and Timber Wolf, since Ferro Lad was dead by the time they joined. And even odder since Chemical King joined at the same time Timber Wolf did.
He had no statue in the JLA issue during the "Lightning Saga", now he's not even in the group shot of the Adventure era Legion. So does this mean he has been retconned out of the Legion? Are the writers and artist that lazy that they don't know or care for the Legion Lore?
Let the discussion begin.
I'm not a big Chemical King guy myself, but I can't think of a good reason why they wouldn't show him. All he's got to do is stand there at the back of the crowd shot and wave. What harm could he do?
Please try to add some spoilers to your headers - not everybody in the world can read the new issue of Action the moment it comes out...

As for Chemical King, no matter what: Bring him back, even dead !!!
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Please try to add some spoilers to your headers
THAT was the conspiracy CK, to get YOU to read an unheaded spoiler. lol
It's probably just that the reference material that Gary Frank had to do the two pages spread didn't feature Chemical King.

As for the statues, maybe Krypto broke it. wink
Someone has to take the holovids... maybe Chem is the designated Legion photographer (in lieu of Proty II not being around).
Well, I haven't read this yet, but having Ferro Lad with Shady and Brin is just not right. It's another nail in the coffin of Johns's propaganda that this really IS the original Legion. Leaving out Condo is another "oversight" that really doesn't have to happen. If you are doing artwork to show EVERY Legionnaire, Condo should be there. It bespeaks laziness and sloppiness and brings home the cynicism behind this effort. If Johns really is such a diehard Legion fanboy, he could get this stuff right, but he hasn't.
I don't think that putting Ferro Lad alongside Shadow Lass and Timber Wolf is a continuity problem; I don't think that page was supposed to represent an actual scene that happened. I took it more as an overview of all the Legionnaires Superman hung with back in the early days. Which means, yes, there's no reason for Chemical King not to be there.
I figure if the Johnsboot can blow off Supergirl's membership in the original Legion (plus the other stuff doublechinner said), CK has no chance if they want to cut him out.

Maybe he's got a better shot as part of Shooter's Legion without the "born to die" albatross hanging around his neck.
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Originally posted by Chemical King:
Please try to add some spoilers to your headers - not everybody in the world can read the new issue of Action the moment it comes out...

As for Chemical King, no matter what: Bring him back, even dead !!!
This hardly constitutes a spoiler.
There's no such thing as "Johnsboot" unless that becomes clear after the end of the Action run and/or it's stated explicitly in the comics.

As for CK, let's face it. He was never a very important character (and that was unfortunate)and besides his "early death" as shown in the Adult stories, the only important storyline he starred in was the one preventing WWVII back in Superboy and the LSH.
If they want to retcon that particular storyline out of the "restored" continuity for some -unfathomable to me - reason, that's the only justified excuse, other than an oversight (Occam's razor applies here)not to include him, or simply retcon him out.
It is conceivable that not including CK anywhere is a hint that this Legion is not the original one, but I'm sure if they wanted to give us such hints, direct or indirect they'd use something or someone a little more...hmmm....well known from the entire Legion history.
The retconning explanation seems too convoluted, too complicated and rather dubious, the "indirect hint" explanation flies in the face of everything they've said so far, so I guess the simpler explanation of oversight is more plausible. wink

Edit: Let me add here that I'm very, very fond of Condo Arlik and I wish he were back, too!
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Originally posted by Dain:
There's no such thing as "Johnsboot" unless that becomes clear after the end of the Action run and/or it's stated explicitly in the comics.
[...]It is conceivable that not including CK anywhere is a hint that this Legion is not the original one, but I'm sure if they wanted to give us such hints, direct or indirect they'd use something or someone a little more...hmmm....well known from the entire Legion history.
The retconning explanation seems too convoluted, too complicated and rather dubious, the "indirect hint" explanation flies in the face of everything they've said so far, so I guess the simpler explanation of oversight is more plausible. wink
I am very surprised to hear you say this.

Because there have been dozens of hints that this is a partial reboot of the original Legion. If Chemical King has really been removed from this Legion's history, it's only the latest in a series of details that don't line up. The only thing that doesn't indicate that this is a partial reboot is that Johns and DC keep claiming it's the original no-changes original.

I mean, look. This Legion is the original Legion in the sense that it is not the reboot or threeboot Legion, and it is the original Legion in the sense that its link to Superman has been restored. And I suppose you could say that it's the original Legion in the sense that you can feel the same emotional connection to it that you could to the original Legion. I don't dispute that.

But when you sit down with a pad of graph paper to suss out how the continuity works, you have to put in a lot of work not to come to the conclusion that this Legion doesn't quite match the original*. It's a new twig that's been grafted onto an existing branch, and the leaves have a different shape to them.

Not that I care if it's the original group or not! I'll take a good Legion story (assuming this is going to be one) regardless of what version it's about.

*Johns and DC will say that the differences are because of the few years of in-story time that have passed between Crisis on Infinite Earths and 'The Lightning Saga'. And it is true that some of the differences can be accounted for that way. When pressed, Johns will also say that a few things about Legion history had to be tightened up, or had characters substituted, to match current continuity or modern sensibilities. And it is true that some of the remaining differences can be accounted for that way.

But not all.
I don't care if it's the "original" Legion either, as long as it's a good version, Matthew.
So, we agree on that.
Still, my definition of a reboot is "starting an existing mythos from scratch and stating explicitly than nothing from what we knew before ever happened". Not a very good definition, but you know what I mean. Throwing everything away and starting anew.
It's just a matter of language but even though "partial reboot" does seem to cover a lot about this Legion, it doesn't cover the *return* of a great part of a "lost" continuity.
It'd be more accurate to say it's a "partial unboot", or - as I've seen it called in the DC Boards - a "restored" version.
Restored doesn't mean "exactly copied". We can't have all the old continuity back both because "Superboy" is a no-no and because the entire DC Universe, and Superman, has changed way too much in the decade+ since Zero Hour.
Restored is a more...hmmm..."endearing" term that may describe accurately this Legion, while "partial unboot" is more "technical".

The word "reboot" is a contradiction in this case.
What is rebooted? A continuity that never existed after ZH? Is this Legion going to replace the 3boot Legion as the "real" one, the way the 3boot Legion replaced the post-ZH Legion?
It doesn't seem so. I wouldn't want it to, come to think of it.

It's obvious that some time - maybe years - has passed from the "point of departure" of this "divergent" Legion. Divergent if the point of departure is COIE. This Legion can be the future of some other Earth, or a divergent path after Crisis.
It could have been - and I know I'm stretching things here - the future of the "adult" Legion before ZH. OK, I know that Mr. Johns has stated that "they'll honor the Legion continuity up to COIE".
The point is that this Legion cannot be "exactly" like the old one either for real life reasons (Superboy etc) or because time has passed as I said before. This Legion is an evolved form of "some" Legion of the past, it's its future.

Even though my favorite Legion is the original one, I wouldn't want it to be exactly like it was 20-30 years ago, not matter how good it was. I don't want beautiful statues, static for all eternity (we have enough of these in Greece wink ). If there's to be another Legion, an adult one that's very similar to the original, I want it to be "living and vibrant" in the "now", not in the "then". The Lightning Saga/Action fits pretty well to a "now" adult Legion that has striking similarities to the original one. Two of the most important are the "origin", and the "promised" restoration of a great part of the old continuity.

A few "details" bother me too, though. Sensor and Karate Kid? Wildfire and Red Tornado? Chem? No explanation. Yet. But I can't see it as a "reboot".
I don't insist on the terminology; I'm just trying to find some way of communicating that this Legion doesn't follow seamlessly from the original Legion at any point. We can call it anything you like; we can call it a spaghettiboot if you want.

But DC's trying to get people to believe that it is the original Legion, with no changes, and that bugs me. It seems deceptive. And that's why I sometimes get vehement about what is really an unimportant nuance of continuity.
I think it all boils down to lazy (or bad) writing & editing.

It's the fans who suffer the most though.
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Originally posted by Matthew E:
I don't insist on the terminology; I'm just trying to find some way of communicating that this Legion doesn't follow seamlessly from the original Legion at any point. We can call it anything you like; we can call it a spaghettiboot if you want.

But DC's trying to get people to believe that it is the original Legion, with no changes, and that bugs me. It seems deceptive. And that's why I sometimes get vehement about what is really an unimportant nuance of continuity.
I understand what you are saying, but my question is: Is it even possible to have any Legion follow seamlessly from the original one today? There are so many "bumps" in the road that it just isn't possible anymore.
There are pros and cons regarding the theoretical question whether the Lightning Saga/Action Legion can be considered a continuation of the original.
The pros are the origin of the Legion as revealed in Action, part of the characterization, the costumes (costumes are symbols for who and when a superhero is, it's not just esthetics), Superman's memories etc.
Strong evidence that this is "some form" of the original Legion, that is.

The cons are discrepancies in the old continuity in juxtaposition to this version of the Legion.
Some of them are important too, and it's just possible, as Nightcrawler said above, that it's just sloppy writing, but do they weigh as much as the pros? I don't think they do.

The very basis of this Legion is similar to the original one in such a degree that I tend to believe it IS the original, or at least a "version" extremely close to the original (keeping in mind that time has passed).

To use an analogy, it's like a tree hit by lightning. If the root and the basic trunk survive, then the tree that will regrow wil be very similar to the original one, but some of the branches will be different. They can't be replicated exactly, ever again.

Naturally, DC will have to do a lot of explaining about all the changes in this Legion's 31st century, and character changes and it remains to be seen whether us fans will find the explanation satisfactory and accept it or not.

Personally, I'm prepared to see the bottle as "half full or almost full" instead of "half empty" because I *want* to like any Legion version there is. I can't always like it but I'm willing to see the good points first and foremost.
That's sentimental, ok. But what the heck. It's the Legion. smile

Edit: Actually it was a metaphor I used, not an analogy. Nitpicker Dain, out! laugh
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Originally posted by Dain:
I understand what you are saying, but my question is: Is it even possible to have any Legion follow seamlessly from the original one today?
Well, even if you couldn't, that still doesn't mean that a not-original version can be considered original.

I think you could do it, though. What's to stop you? It's just ink on paper; you just do it and there you are.

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There are pros and cons regarding the theoretical question whether the Lightning Saga/Action Legion can be considered a continuation of the original.
The pros are the origin of the Legion as revealed in Action, part of the characterization, the costumes (costumes are symbols for who and when a superhero is, it's not just esthetics), Superman's memories etc.
Strong evidence that this is "some form" of the original Legion, that is.

The cons are discrepancies in the old continuity in juxtaposition to this version of the Legion.
Some of them are important too, and it's just possible, as Nightcrawler said above, that it's just sloppy writing, but do they weigh as much as the pros? I don't think they do.
That's kind of like saying - and this is just an analogy - that 100 + 100 = 195, because 195 is most of the way to 200, and the 195 is more important than the 5.

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The very basis of this Legion is similar to the original one in such a degree that I tend to believe it IS the original, or at least a "version" extremely close to the original (keeping in mind that time has passed).
It is close to the original, very much so. Nobody disputes that. Hey, I'd recommend it to someone who was a diehard fan of the original. But it's also different in many ways, including some very subtle ways, and in some obvious ways that people tend to look past.

One way it's different: one of the themes of this Legion is that they stand for unity and diversity in a world plagued by xenophobia. Red Tornado said so back in the Lightning Saga and it's obviously part of the storyline in Action. But this was never one of the themes of the original Legion! It's an artifact of the reboot Legion, is what it is. Now, by itself, that doesn't prevent this Legion from being the original Legion, but it's one more indication that we've got something different here. And when you pile all these different hints, all these different kinds of hints, together, I think the result is conclusive.

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Naturally, DC will have to do a lot of explaining about all the changes in this Legion's 31st century, and character changes and it remains to be seen whether us fans will find the explanation satisfactory and accept it or not.
Hah! They don't have to explain anything they don't want to explain, and in this case I think they'll find that things go much more smoothly for them if they don't. Whether we like it or not.

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Personally, I'm prepared to see the bottle as "half full or almost full" instead of "half empty" because I *want* to like any Legion version there is. I can't always like it but I'm willing to see the good points first and foremost.
But do you see what you did there? You're implying that you would like this Legion if it was the original and not if it were not. Simplistically, you're equating original with good and non-original with bad. And not only do I not think that that's true, I don't think you think it's true. After all, we just got through agreeing that what we want is a good Legion story about whatever version is available.

I miss the original Legion as much as anyone; that's not what this is about to me. If this isn't the original Legion I'm still going to give the story a fair shake. I just want to establish the facts about whether it is or it isn't. DC says it is but my best analysis is that they're talking through their hats, and I have to go with my best analysis.
Consecutive posts; sorry. A question about this whole Chemical King aspect of things.

There was a story where Superboy worked with Chemical King, right? They actually knew each other as more than faces in the crowd?
Yes. Chemical King was part of the faux band of baddies led by Superboy to infilitrate the Legion of Super Villains.

Superboy, Timber Wolf, Chameleon Boy, and Chemical King. Superboy and Cham were disguised. TW and CK weren't well known as they had not yet joined the Legion.
Also, Superboy and Chem had a private conversation just before Condo's death. He was telling Superboy about his feelings of inadequacy as a Legionnaire. It was an intimate discussion, and one got the impression than it wasn't the first betwen them, IIRC.

ChemicalKing
Then I say the man belongs in Action Comics.
Superboy and Chem also joined other Legionnaires to raid the secret villain hideout called Haven at the edge of the galaxy. At the time they captured Roxxas, among others.

Somewhere around Superboy & LSH #210-220
While I can understand the points, the fact remains that Chemical King has not achieved the status of "Legion Icon" that most others have. While the other characters are often referenced, Chemical King is not. While the other characters are more or less guaranteed a spot in any alternate version of the Legion, Chemical King is not.

Furthermore, he doesn't even seem to be important as a symbol of that era, the way one could argue Kinetix, XS, and Gates were for the post-ZH Legion. The original costumes and the Superman connection fit that role here.

With other members of the Legion, readers who have at least a passing familiarity with the Legion probably know who they are. Before I read the Legion, I could at least identify the characters in my mind, even if I didn't know their exact names or powers. But Chemical King? He has never really fit that bill.
Matthew said
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Well, even if you couldn't, that still doesn't mean that a not-original version can be considered original.
It can't. But then, no character in DC Comics can be considered original whatsoever.

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I think you could do it, though. What's to stop you? It's just ink on paper; you just do it and there you are.
Uhhh, the Siegel family's lawyer? lol


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one of the themes of this Legion is that they stand for unity and diversity in a world plagued by xenophobia. Red Tornado said so back in the Lightning Saga and it's obviously part of the storyline in Action. But this was never one of the themes of the original Legion!
It wasn't as prominent as it is/was in the reboot versions but it was there. The polymer screen around Earthfor one, and, maybe even more importantly, the prejudice against Durlans was subtly but certainly a recurring sub-theme.

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But do you see what you did there? You're implying that you would like this Legion if it was the original and not if it were not. Simplistically, you're equating original with good and non-original with bad. And not only do I not think that that's true, I don't think you think it's true. After all, we just got through agreeing that what we want is a good Legion story about whatever version is available.
Not at all. I've stated many times that if it's a good version of the Legion - whatever good may mean - I'm going to like it regardless of how "close" to the original it is. My comment about "half full" and "half empty" had to do with my attitude towards *any* Legion version. Meaning I'm willing to give it a chance to prove what it is, good/bad, original/restored, rebooted/unbooted or whatever, without trying to necessarily find faults or jump to conclusions before the whole story that introduces this Legion is finished. Instead I try to focus on its good points *on its own merits*. It's not easy to see any version of the Legion "on its own merits", I realize that as a long-time Legion fan, and I definitely would like the Legion I loved back. But would I be disappointed if it was revealed that this Legion isn't the original, or it's just the Legion of another Earth that shares similarities to the original? No! No way!

Anyway, to get on topic again, back then Chemical King was difficult to write for. A writer needed to be very familiar with Chemistry to really find ways to use Chem. It's one thing to change oxygen to nitrogen, like Element Lad did but chemistry doesn't leave much space for "fantasy".
Things may have changed today, and even if a writer's knowledge of Chemistry doesn't go beyond high-school level, there's the Internet and many ideas for clever uses of Chem's powers can be found online.
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Originally posted by Matthew E:
One way it's different: one of the themes of this Legion is that they stand for unity and diversity in a world plagued by xenophobia. Red Tornado said so back in the Lightning Saga and it's obviously part of the storyline in Action. But this was never one of the themes of the original Legion! It's an artifact of the reboot Legion, is what it is.


I disagree with Matthew (something which rarely happens). This theme wasn't as prominent in the original Legion as in the reboot, but it was certainly there in "The Hero Who Hated the Legion," for example.
It may have been there in some individual stories; I hold to my opinion that it did not particularly apply to the Legion franchise as a whole until the reboot.
I was just going to post my own version of this topic and see someone beat me to it. I am a very big fan of his(Chemical King) because I never really saw him as a child when I started reading the Legion. I do remember his prominate roles in the intro of Wildfire story, his saving Roxxas from Element Lad story, his two part death issues and several small shots like in Tyroc joining and BB/DD wedding issue. So it was like a mystery character like Tyroc became. I just wanted to know more about him and what he could do. Why he hasnt been in all these scenes is a mystery yet again. But we see his symbol on the Legion cartoon as well as Tyroc so he exist's somewhere!

My gut is that he will be reintroduced in the New Shooter Legion..I think SHooter created him and he may not have joined the original Legion as yet as some hiccup in the timestream.
Either way most of us I assume want Condo back so we can finally see what he is all about and what under the right writer he can do!
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Originally posted by Pariscub:
It's probably just that the reference material that Gary Frank had to do the two pages spread didn't feature Chemical King.
Back in my day, we had editors for that kind of thing, to either A) make sure the artist had the correct refrence info, or B) to correct any mistakes.
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Originally posted by Dain:

As for CK, let's face it. He was never a very important character (and that was unfortunate)and besides his "early death" as shown in the Adult stories, the only important storyline he starred in was the one preventing WWVII back in Superboy and the LSH.
THAT makes me wonder if the omission of Condo is not intentional.

To wit: He's always been maligned for being an "unimportant Legionnaire" who died soon after joining. But, while Ferro Lad had a similar Legion career, Andrew Nolan won posthumous fame and celebrity, while Condo was largely forgotten.

But, in a twist on "It's a Wonderful Life," what if Condo had never joined the Legion, and thus, never sacrificed himself to prevent WWVII?

Johns has reportedly said the Lightning Sage Legion is THE pre-crisis team. But that does not necessarily mean that it is the future of current DCU continuity. Note: Everything post-Infinite Crisis takes place on New Earth, and while we have confirmation that Earth-2 exists among the 52 universes, we have yet to see Earth-1.

My theory is this: The lack of a wedding ring on Clark Kent, his traditional Silver/Bronze Age style bumbling, and apparent lack of a hook up with Lois (per Perrys' comments about having no friends besides Jimmy), is an indication that this story takes place on Earth-1.

TPTB at DC have said each of the 52 universes has their own unique alternate dimensions and timelines.

Therefore, this story takes place in an alternate Earth-1 timeline in which Chemical King never joined the Legion, and thus never prevented WWVIII.

PREDICTION: We will meet Chemical Kinf sometime during this story and he will be instrumental in restoring the timeline to the one in which he died, thus making a double sacrafice. Once the timeline is restored, THEN, this will be THE Pre-Crisis Legion.
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Originally posted by imskian78:

My gut is that he will be reintroduced in the New Shooter Legion..I think SHooter created him and he may not have joined the original Legion as yet as some hiccup in the timestream.
Either way most of us I assume want Condo back so we can finally see what he is all about and what under the right writer he can do!
I hope you're right! I'd really like to see what Shooter would do with his creation. (Maybe he'll bring back Quicksand, too!)

One of the few joys of the Legion's multiple rebooting has been seeing Lyle and Ferro Lad in action (reboot and SW6, respectively- though I liked the reboot F-Lad better than most). I hope the final member of the early LSH dead gets his shot at representation, if not stardom.

Sometimes I think that Condo's been left in the cupboard because of the perceived similarity to Element Lad. I wish a writer would utilize that perception and show the two teamed up for a couple of missions-- in which they could display how different, though complementary, their powers really are.
Yes, it is kinda weird that CK didn't even have a statue in the Fortress. If it's not an oversight, then this unexplainable disappearance of CK ought to lead to a very interesting storyline in the future.
Speaking about Chem, I read somewhere that in the DC Encyclopedia, which I haven't bought, it's stated that CK is gay. I know there were "rumors" about Condo Arlik and Lyle Norg, so I can't help but wonder if this side of him will resurface if/when he appears again.
One could hypothesize, of course, that if this Legion an otherdimensional one, then this CK might never have been gay.
PoFo, that's a very interesting and creative explanation for the absence of Condo. Having said that, I hope they never read this post or come up with this idea on their own. It would seem tremendously unfair to me that they would finally reintroduce Condo simply as a plot device in order to restore the original Legion.

Of all the Legionnaires, Condo is one of the most, if not THE most, poorly treated members. He was first introduced as a memorial statue in the Adult Legion story and so his fate seemed to be sealed from the start. I should point out that Shady shared a similar introduction (as did Quantum Queen, Reflecto and Power Boy) in the same story yet future writers allowed her to confront that destiny and prevail!

Instead Condo, whose power should have made him one of the most original and powerful of the Legionnaires (as demonstrated in the few stories in which he was a featured player), was relegated to merely occasional background scenery.

Pouring salt into the wound, when TPTB finally decided to kill him off years later, they first trashed him by portrying him as a troubled, self doubting, moping, loser with an inferiority complex who manages to die a heroic death in spite of himself.

Condo deserved much better treatment than he got and much of it is due to laziness on the part of the writers, IMO. They simply didn't understand his power and wouldn't take the time to figure it out. It was just easier to kill him off.

Sadly, this lack of respect seems to continue even today. It is disrespectful to Condo's fans that he was left out as one of the statues in the Lightning Saga scene in the Fortress. This issue provides an additinal slap in the face to those of us that have always loved this Legionnaire and the unfullfilled promise he represented.

I can only hope that Jim Shooter will find a way to bring Condo back into the line up and show everyone how wrong they were and what a great Legionnaire he always was.

ChemicalKing BRING BACK CONDO! ChemicalKing
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Originally posted by Mystery Lad:
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Originally posted by imskian78:
[b]
My gut is that he will be reintroduced in the New Shooter Legion..I think SHooter created him and he may not have joined the original Legion as yet as some hiccup in the timestream.
Either way most of us I assume want Condo back so we can finally see what he is all about and what under the right writer he can do!
I hope you're right! I'd really like to see what Shooter would do with his creation. (Maybe he'll bring back Quicksand, too!)

One of the few joys of the Legion's multiple rebooting has been seeing Lyle and Ferro Lad in action (reboot and SW6, respectively- though I liked the reboot F-Lad better than most). I hope the final member of the early LSH dead gets his shot at representation, if not stardom.

Sometimes I think that Condo's been left in the cupboard because of the perceived similarity to Element Lad. I wish a writer would utilize that perception and show the two teamed up for a couple of missions-- in which they could display how different, though complementary, their powers really are.[/b]
Couldn't agree more, Mystery Lad. Teaming Condo & Jan makes so much sense it's really hard to believe that such supposedly "creative" people could never figure that out. It's as natural and logical a pairing as teaming Shady & Lydda consistently (which, of course, rarely happens either! shake )
I didn't realize what a can of worms I'd opened when I started this post. But I am glad it got you all thinking.
I agree that Condo has always been sort of the black sheep of the Legion Family. I can understand why the writers of the past always treated him badly (since they didn;t know how to write him), but writers have gotten alot better and more imaginative since then.
I agree, Healex. And I don't think you opened a "can of worms". Civilized discussion and debate is a very good thing, imho. smile
One more point to remember regarding Condo in relation to this version of the Legion...

His big sacrifice to prevent the Governor of Australia from starting World War VII? It may not have been needed in this version, as KK indicates in Countdown that their Australia (like the threeboot) is now the South Pole.
Several people have noted that Ferro Lad and Triplicate Girl didn't serve with Shadow Lass or Timber Wolf, but I don't think anyone has noted that Shadow Lass and Timber Wolf never served in the original clubhouse either. Shadow Lass was sworn in in its ruins and Timber Wolf never set foot in it. However, I agree with Matthew E. that the scene isn't meant to display a precise moment in time, just represent the Adventure era membership.

It is a shame that Chemical King never got his chance to shine, but since he only appeared in about a dozen stories, most notably his death scene, it doesn't surprise me that he apparently has been jettisoned from the cast. Not only were his powers never used consistently or explored very extensively, but his costume was pretty bland and forgettable and his personality never got a chance to develop. If he is reintroduced, I hope he has a much more dynamic costume and personality attached and I hope somebody takes the time to come up with a specific set of abilities and limitations for him. That's the only way his character is going to work.

I don't care to debate what does or doesn't constitute a reboot or the "original" Legion. I'm just glad to see a return to a Legion who looks familiar, and as such, I wish every new Legion creator didn't feel the need to redesign everyone's costumes. What the Legion needs more than anything is some stability and staying power, and giving them a whole new look and new direction every few years isn't going to establish it.

Superman is the most well known and one of the most long standing comics icons out there and one of the reasons for that is that his costume has remained virtually unchanged for what? 50 years? Not that I'm saying the Legion should return to their original costumes either, but constant change is part of what's keeping them in relative comic obscurity, imho of course. And by stability and staying power, I don't mean that they shouldn't be allowed to grow either, but consistency and balance are key.
Stability and staying power! Amen to that!
The Legionnaires did tend to change costumes from time to time, but it was hardly a common thing.
I like the new costumes in Action but I agree that they should have stayed a little longer in the "old" ones, or at least have them don new clothes organically, not all at the same time.

As for CK, I hope he's reintroduced with the characteristics and fleshing out you described above.
He should have been in the spread in Action though, no matter how small his career was. Anyways, maybe there's a reason for this, as other have said, so we'll just have to wait and see.
Given what a cipher he is, with inconsistently used powers and minimal characterization, he's the 'canon' Legionnaire best suited to be re-imagined as someone fresh and exciting.
I'll bet he isn't a cipher to Shooter. I wonder if we'll see plans he had for the character back when he created him? Assuming he shows up in the EIG (eat it grandpa) Legion, that is.
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Originally posted by Cloak and Dagger:
While I can understand the points, the fact remains that Chemical King has not achieved the status of "Legion Icon" that most others have. While the other characters are often referenced, Chemical King is not. While the other characters are more or less guaranteed a spot in any alternate version of the Legion, Chemical King is not.

Furthermore, he doesn't even seem to be important as a symbol of that era, the way one could argue Kinetix, XS, and Gates were for the post-ZH Legion.
It's funny that you say that, cause to me, Chemical King has always been more of an icon than an actual character - because I grew up with the three statues of the dead Legionnaires Ferro Lad, Invisible Kid and Chemical King. The fact that they were dead and the rest of the team honored them in that special way always made them very special to me - they were very symbolic for what the Legion was standing for: A team in which the members were ready to die an heroic death for their teammates and the world they were sworn to protect. And: They stayed dead - at least the three never got resurrected as long as I was reading the Legion as a child.

Now you can say that makes Chemical King an even weaker character - cause he was dead that much longer than he was a living member. But to me, the few appearances of CK - just like the ones of the moribund Ferro Lad and Invisible Kid - were that much more important and thrilling when I actually got to read them later on.

So knowing CK mostly as a statue makes it much more of a failure that his statue is missing NOW. Ferro and Lyle are there. That's sad. And it is missing a major point of the Preboot: The three dead Legionnaires everybody was talkiong about in awe...

By the way both Reboots tried to capture that spirit by quickly killing off at least one character. The first Reboot killed of Kid Quantum after just a few issues just to have one of those niftly statues standing around - a rather pathetic attempt considering that you cannot capture the same spirit the old statues stood for after twenty years of story development.

The Threeboot kind of killed Dream Girl after 13 issues of non-story for the same "dramatic" effect. At least they did abstain from making a statue again...

So was Chemical King a good character? I don't know, cause he had too few chances to shine. But was he an icon? All through the later 70s and 80s, he certainly was...
The issue with CK's death was the first Legion comic I read, after I started reading it in English, where a Legionnaire I knew well died. Invisible Kid had died in #203 but I didn't know him well enough yet to care - it was the first issue I read with Lyle - even though I was saddened by his death.
CK's death was a shock to me because it was unexpected and the most heroic death I had seen in comics at that time. After that I always thought of him as a noble and caring person, a real hero (I hadn't read the issue of Ferro Lad's death yet).
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Originally posted by Dain:
I don't care if it's the "original" Legion either, as long as it's a good version, Matthew.
So, we agree on that.
Still, my definition of a reboot is "starting an existing mythos from scratch and stating explicitly than nothing from what we knew before ever happened". Not a very good definition, but you know what I mean. Throwing everything away and starting anew.
It's just a matter of language but even though "partial reboot" does seem to cover a lot about this Legion, it doesn't cover the *return* of a great part of a "lost" continuity.
It'd be more accurate to say it's a "partial unboot", or - as I've seen it called in the DC Boards - a "restored" version.
Restored doesn't mean "exactly copied". We can't have all the old continuity back both because "Superboy" is a no-no and because the entire DC Universe, and Superman, has changed way too much in the decade+ since Zero Hour.
Restored is a more...hmmm..."endearing" term that may describe accurately this Legion, while "partial unboot" is more "technical".

The word "reboot" is a contradiction in this case.
What is rebooted? A continuity that never existed after ZH? Is this Legion going to replace the 3boot Legion as the "real" one, the way the 3boot Legion replaced the post-ZH Legion?
It doesn't seem so. I wouldn't want it to, come to think of it.

It's obvious that some time - maybe years - has passed from the "point of departure" of this "divergent" Legion. Divergent if the point of departure is COIE. This Legion can be the future of some other Earth, or a divergent path after Crisis.
It could have been - and I know I'm stretching things here - the future of the "adult" Legion before ZH. OK, I know that Mr. Johns has stated that "they'll honor the Legion continuity up to COIE".
The point is that this Legion cannot be "exactly" like the old one either for real life reasons (Superboy etc) or because time has passed as I said before. This Legion is an evolved form of "some" Legion of the past, it's its future.

Even though my favorite Legion is the original one, I wouldn't want it to be exactly like it was 20-30 years ago, not matter how good it was. I don't want beautiful statues, static for all eternity (we have enough of these in Greece wink ). If there's to be another Legion, an adult one that's very similar to the original, I want it to be "living and vibrant" in the "now", not in the "then". The Lightning Saga/Action fits pretty well to a "now" adult Legion that has striking similarities to the original one. Two of the most important are the "origin", and the "promised" restoration of a great part of the old continuity.

A few "details" bother me too, though. Sensor and Karate Kid? Wildfire and Red Tornado? Chem? No explanation. Yet. But I can't see it as a "reboot".
Very well said.
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