6 page preview of LSH #3!

Nice variant cover!

Nice preview!

Great preview. Loving the art more and more!

... Still miss Tyroc's hair though!

Be thankful that's all he's missing. He could be missing an arm... or his face... or his identi-teh.

Cham-as-Validus is an awesome cover.

While I almost always like the newer sleeker costumes to the old-school ones, Cham's old blue costume is a big exception to that rule.

And with a sentence, Imra and Saturn Queen are no longer 'Lanothians,' but descendents of earth-humans who travelled to Titans and met them. Go Paul, busting free of the constraints of other writers and returning the status quo effortlessly. (Although Saturn Queen has never really had the coloration that I associate with the practice of suttee...)

Ditto on your whole post Set. Love me some Adventure-era Cham costume! And great to see dumb retcons swept under the rug with the minimal amount of effort that they deserve too!

Split this up for the current issue.

Looking forward to reading it myself.

The parts with Garth, Imra, and Ayla made me smile. I'm being serious, it made me smile seeing them like that.

Third issue in and I am already in love with this new book (well, most of it anyway).

So Saturn Queen was heading back to Titan to "settle" with them hey? I wonder what she really meant to do there. I guess we'll never know for sure now.
I am not certain what her whole ordeal with the Legion was meant to accomplish, I know it sure confused me though! It has to be more than just her being bored and messing around with the Legionnaires for revenge, even though she might feel they "allowed the whole world to explode". Did she really love Titan that much? Answer = no, not really.

Speaking of revenge what is up with those Durlans anyway?

Sensor Girl really, REALLY needs to lose that ugly mask of hers. She looks so much better without it. It was good to see her in this book though.

I enjoyed the closeness and family feel of the Garth/Imra/Ayla moments. I hope the fate of the twins is not something sad in the end. That would not only devasate the Ranzz's but us readers as well I think.

I will forego any comments on this whole Earth Man as a GL plot.
I'm not really diggin' the whole space alloted in this new book to telling the story of this utterly worthless character. I don't care about any potential redemption (if that is in fact where Mr Levitz is ultimately going with this). Although I trust Paul's instincts I would rather see the 28 pages of my monthy Legion fix go to fleshing out the vast ensemble of our beloved heroes, and especially those heroes that lots of us on here have been screaming to see get more attention and focus. Not have our Legionnaires hover around "Earth Man" on Ozifer like his supporting characters or something. That's exactly what it felt like!

Come on ... gimme a break already.

Wow! I just read it and thought it was a terrific issue! I'm not gonna get spoilerish until more people have read, but...some last page, huh?

I think it came across clearly that our girl Eve is not all right in the head! Not completely sure whether that's her usual state or if it's induced by the trauma of losing Titan. Best guess is that the latter magnified the former. The Legionnaires being present and being involved gave her an excuse to wreak some crazy havoc. There have certainly been villains running amuck with less motivation.

Good question. Whatever it is, I hope it's more entertaining than being some Secret Invasion-like riff.

Yeah, it was good to see Jeckie, Jan and Tellus this issue. (Did I miss anyone else who we'd yet to see in the prior issues?) Jeckie, in particular had a GREAT moment that really recalled some prior great moments for the character!

Those scenes definitely worked. The last page makes me fear for the twins, as does the next issue blurb. I was wondering if Paul was going there.

Is it me or was there further implication that Garth and Imra had had a rough patch recently?

I actually found myself enjoying the Earth-Man/GL sequences quite a bit this issue. Between this issue and last issue, it's apparent that Kirt is more than just some thug and has at least the capacity to do great good. It's still up in the air if he'll go that way. His throwing the ring away was a bit of a head-scratcher, though. I understand that he doesn't like being forced to save aliens, but it was kind of disappointing. Also wouldn't the other Legionnaires want to retrieve the ring, if for no other reasons that it's such a powerful weapon?

But, yeah, Kirt is getting LOTS of space so far. I guess it can't be helped if that's the story Paul wants to tell right now. Proponents could argue that a non Big Four character's hogging some spotlight, though--just not one they'd choose!

Matter-Eater Lad hasn't appeared yet from the 21st century.

I enjoyed the issue and can't wait to read more.

I suspected that the Lanotharians weren't the humans that we've met from Titan.
Which leads to the question, where are the Lanotharians now?
Hopefully, they were evacuated with most of the humanoids, if they were still on Titan.

And I don't think the Legionnaires can take the GL ring.
I just don't know if the ring will go back to OA, find a different 'host' or return to, and badger, EM.

I get my copies tomorrow.

Once again, an issue I REALLY enjoyed.

Seeing Jeckie in action was awesome!!! Can't wait for more of some of the other Legionnaires, but Paul really is doing a great job of including almost everyone...

MATT _ I ORDER YOU TO SPOIL IT!!!!!!! arrrgghhh!!!!

"Is it me or was there further implication that Garth and Imra had had a rough patch recently?"

But we know what the rough patch was. Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes and Lo3W.

Read it, loved it.

Man the Legion is smoking right now. I really love the way they are using the two Legion books right now, telling contemporary stories with Levitz in a Legion groove(and when he's in that kind of groove he is the greatest Legion writer of them all), and then using the Adventure book for Silver Age type tales that recap the history of the team for new readers(and add in new details for the long time readers) with Supes serving as a gateway type character.

Love it.


I have actually lost interest in nearly every other book DC is publishing right now but the Legion is at the top of my read list for the first time in decades and that is all that matters to me in my comics reading world.


Hopefully DC will figure out they should do the same thing with the JSA and use one of their books for telling WWII era tales of the JSA/ASS.


Period comics ruls.


PS: Why can't I send a PM to myself?

Because you don't deserve it?

Before reading any of your thoughts, here's mine: It looked very much like Paul was abruptly dropping the GL plot and that he only included it in the first place because of that Adventure panel. First of all, the suspense of how the Legion finds out about the GL ring is eliminated when Earth-Man tells them. And we're plopped down in the middle of things--the Legion doesn't need to find out that he's leaving the planet, the issue starts with them already knowing. Second, he gets rid of the ring by the end of the issue, and it's under circumstances where it seems very unlikely that his having had the ring will have consequences--he didn't use it for evil or even try to force it to do his bidding. It's possible that Dyogene was testing him and he failed the test, but even then, all that that proves that he's unsuitable to use a ring that he doesn't want anyway.

Also, something that I realized today: Earth-Man was the person who messed up Tyroc's initiation into the LSH. Strange coincidence that we see Tyroc reappear now that Earth-Man's a member.

Perhaps, but I crave the certainty that goes hand in hand with pming oneself. So while I may not deserve it, I need it and as well struggle to comprehend why it is not permitted.

How does that song go?

You can't always get what you want, but if you try some times girls just want to have fun.

LOL
You're the best SK!!!

Well I know THAT.

Solid issue. I really, really like the cover. Cinar does a great job with Sun Boy. The tentacled monster has a nice old fashioned horror comic feel. The superb coloring job pulls it all together.

The artwork inside was nice too. I prefer Cinar, but really can't complain about the Portela pages. The guys all look great. Storytelling, backgrounds, action scenes and facial expressions all look good. I'm not warming up as much to the women, though, but I think that has more to do with the costume designs. Sensor Girl's, in particular is still a sore spot.

Levitz delivers a gaffe free script. The characterization seems right. A hallmark of Levitz earlier work with the Legion was his ability to manage the large cast well. He delivers on that front. I'm ready for next month. Do we really have to wait 30 days? Darn.

I'm actually finding myself enjoying Portela's art a little more than Cinar's! I've complained about Faucher's inks before, but here, the Cinar/Faucher combo resulted in a little too much of a Mark Bagley riff, I thought. This was mostly apparent with the faces. I like Bagley, but the similarities were distracting.

Portela's art, however, just seemed more uniquely his own and an attractive one at that. It's not that Cinar's stuff was displeasing, but it seemed Portela outshined him, at least IMO.

I never got that vibe in terms of resembling Bagley. Cinar is too clean to be mirrored to Bagley.

Except for the twice committed error of Tyroc's "home planet" being Marzal, not Earth. Unless of course we end up finding out Marzal is now its own planet?

That would indeed rock. Rather than endless and failed (and usually ill-conceived right from the start) attempts to recapture old glories, I'd rather see stories set in the past with the original old glories themselves (like the old Invaders book, from Marvel).

A Perez/Wolfman era Teen Titans lineup would, I think, be a heck of a lot more fun to read if it was set back 'a few years' and occured before they went their separate ways, instead of the constant attempts to put them back together. (You could even, instead of a lame attempt to bring back a 'redeemed' clone of Terra or whatever, use the *actual* Terra, in a 'previously undisclosed adventure' with the team, or previously undisclosed adventures with Tula or Kole or Magenta or some other Titans character that got ganked or rendered unusable.)

Similarly, if Adventure is going to do nothing but show us Garth, Imra and Rokk, issue after issue, they don't even have to be members of the current team, and we can see more of people who are supposedly on the team, like Night Girl, XS, etc. who aren't getting any screen time.

The only justification to show case the founders so much during the LSH run is if the Adventure run is showing us early adventures of people we wouldn't see in the 'current' book like Invisible Lyle, Ferro Lad and Chemical King (or even a shocking new addition to the ex-Legion, like a Reflecto or a Quantum Queen!).

Devoting both books to the founders (and Brainy), IMO, is a bit like offering the fans their choice of two flavors, so long as both of them are really the same flavor...

I don't think any of the artwork on #3 resembled Bagley's stuff. First of all Bagley's heroes are a bit too skinny, guys and girls alike, for my tastes.
The beauty of the Cinar/Portela/Faucher combination is that it has its own look. Their work is unique, and does not remind me of anybody else's art at the moment. That's why they stand out and we are lucky to have them on-board with the Legion book.
IMHO.

Went to the store just to get this one comic last night...didn't read it till this morning. Wow.

To tell the truth I don't love the Earth Man story but Levitz still has me hooked on it. I thought making him a GL was, er, not interesting. Silly me didn't realize the possibilities. Have a guy that hates aliens being responsible for billions of them.

Another issue calling Jo dumb...eh. Mr. Levitz if you haven't read that annual about Jo & Glorith by the Bierbaums please do. It is one of my favorite issues ever and I'm a die hard Levitz fan. Anyways, love the action and that page with Phantom Girl and the team behind her...GREAT! Knowing Mr. Levitz he just has Jo in deep cover still...acting the dumb jock.

The story of the missing twins (and Mekt's missing twin) have interested me the most. Can't wait for next issue.

I love Mr. Levitz story structure and pace. I always have and nice to know he isn't trying to reinvent himself or the Legion. It really feels like I'm reading a Legion comic 25 years ago. The art keeps getting better and better. Infact I wonder if Mr. Cinar has been looking at old Legion comics (Giffen/Larocque/Lightle) issues because it just feels like it. (It could be Levitz's story structure as well). Every issue I like Cinar's work better and better.

Saturn Queen said that he lead his people 'off planet when they didn't understand Marzal'. So, I am guessing that Marzal was relocated and they now call their entire world (assuming there is more to it than that one city any way) Marzal.
As for E-man's mission... did anyone else get the feeling the whole planet was sentient. Kind of like Mogo? Maybe the whole idea was for E-man to drop off the ring there.
All in all a mediochre issue, but not nearly as bad as Adventure #516.

I wonder if he relocated his powers when nobody understood those either.

I have to agree, as much as I'm loving this run, I'm not a fan of Jo as dumb jock.

I got into the legion with the 5 year gap run. Because of that Jo became one of my favorite legion characters... so not really a fan of this particular interpretation.

Hey, I'm no art expert, and I'm not saying in any way that Cinar's a Bagley clone---just mostly that his faces came off a little Bagley-esque this issue in MY opinion. Cinar is a very competent artist, but I do think his pencils are not being done justice by Faucher's inks, as I've said before. From the uninked pencils we've seen, it's been very clear that Faucher's style overwhelms Cinar's to an extent.

As I've said elsewhere, it's the inker's job to bring out the purity of the pencils. I think it's a different story if the inker is credited with "finishes", rather than "inks", because he's not working from full pencils. The finisher is justified for imposing his style more in those cases.

Yes, I know that many inkers are known for imposing their style on full pencils as well. Dick Giordano, Klaus Janson and Bill Sienkiewicz come readily to mind. Those guys are/were superstars, and pencillers know going in that this will happen. Faucher gets lots of work, but I wouldn't classify him on anyone's radar for legendary inkers.

Poretela's art is Faucher-free and comes off more unique and fresh because of the lack of that outside influence. So his style is more readily apparent, and I really like what I see. If Cinar could get a better/less overpowering inker or be one of those artists whose pencils are scanned directly, I'm sure I'd feel better about his work compared to Portela's.

I agree Chief Taylor. His pencil work is amazing but then the end product isn't as amazing. Larry Mahlstedt? What's he doing?! Or even Mr. Lightle inking him would be amazing!

hmmm hey Ultra Jorge...i guess we both can retire our signatures...

your "bring back quislet!" and my "bring back the super cousins" we got our legion back again!!!!

At the end of their 21st century adventures, Jecky removed the mask/wig illusion and said she wouldn't be needing it any more. I open up LEGION #3 and there it is again!
Please Paul & Yildiray-get rid of it!! Let us see her beautiful face & platinum curls!
On the other hand, I love Element Lad's updated costume.

Hey the variant cover version of #3 was delayed a week, or so I was told by the owner of my local comic shop. Is this true or was I being fed a line?
I would love to own that Chameleon Boy cover and add it to my collection.

actually i thought the reason jeckie was in the mask or kept it in the first place was because she didn't want criminals to know that most of her new powers were still mostly illusions.

It's true. Panic if you didn't get it after next Wednesday (like me).

I didn't think the art was as good as last issue, except the cover, which rocked. I too hate Sensor girl's costume and it's not just the mask, though that's the worst part. If her eyes didn't show (as in her original mask) it would look less hokey.

I was confused by what she did in that scene with SQ. Was she using some of her vague Sensor Girl powers or just casting illusions of herself and the others for B5 and Tyroc to attack? If so, that could've been made more clear. Also, SQ could've just dropped her control or redirected her thralls before she got bonked. It also seemed weird to me that she just stood around in deep space waiting for U boy to destroy HQ (and then return to her?). Why didn't she go with him and supervise? Or at least go someplace where she'd be more comfortable.

I've never been a GL afficianado but I've never been aware that the ring was in control of the host. And it's only been recently that I've been aware that the ring could talk to the host. What's up with all that? Seemed like a silly throw away device that was quickly discarded merely for the purpose of tying LSH in with the GL events in DCU.

the green lantern part of the story isnt over jim...there's more to come. it maybe over as far as Earth Man goes...but no...it aint over yet.

It seems both artists draw basically the same scene, Cinar on page 5 and Portela on page 18.

I echo the sentiment about seeing Jan, Jeckie and Tellus back in action, and the annoyance at Adventure focusing so much on a small group of Legionnaires. I wonder when we'll finally get to see Yera, Lydda (Shady's erstwhile "partner," who keeps appearing without her), the powered-up Luornu, and XS?

and Thom!

Prediction: Professor Harmonia Li will be the new Green Lantern.

Possibly. I still think the 'bug' world is a Mogo Jr. and the core of a new GL team.

i second rhino's prediction cause it would fit, since she knew rond. That and her feelings about the time institutes dabbling...that probably would contribute to her being a green lantern no no not the power itself...just the trouble of making her interesting makes her a logical choice.

And like me.
I paniced Thursday since my retailer told me his list read 'no varient'.
I tried to explain that there WAS a varient, so he called and got the scoop.
He got mad at me because Diamond treats him badly if he calls, which didn't happen this time, he got an answer and niceness.
sigh

I think that both ideas are interesting and possible.
I can't imagine why the ring would fall to the ground and roll in the dust when Rond's ring flew off into space, escaping Universo, except that the ring was to go to the sentient there.

Li would work too.
The Legion builds up lots of no superheroes, so that's not a true indication of coming power, imo.
I think she might be a player, though.

I wonder where Rond's ring is more.
I'd love to see his 'wife' and child.

As ever, I totally agree with you on all your points there Jim. I was confused by that scene as well. Also in the panel where PG pushed SQ it looked more like an IK move than a PG move.

Thanks, Carggy. Yes, I was looking around for I Kid too. I also thought it might have been Tellus bonking her telekinetically. And what does the Goose Girl comment mean?

Speaking of I KId, I see his white stripe is back but his goatee is gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goose_Girl

I actually almost felt for Earth Man in this isssue. Interesting way Paul is portraying him. It reminds me slightly, just slightly of the %YL Khund Legionnaires being forced into the team...and the tensions that created.

Saturn Queen story seemed anticlimactic. Not sure the point at this time.

Looking forward to the search for the twins come to fruition.

I hate that Tellus has hands now...do not remember that before, I always thought he had arms that ended in more stumpish things...

Jeckie needs to loose the mask, as that will at least make the outfit not as nausiating.

The ring fell to the ground there because that Pokemon-looking floating creature, Dyogene, was there to pick it up. If you look back at issue 1 he was the same creature who gave Earth-Man the ring to begin with.

I get the impression we're supposed to believe he was testing Earth-Man, but I don't see what that would accomplish except to prove he's unsuitable for the ring, which doesn't matter since he threw out the ring anyway.

Umm, wasn't that 5YL?

Universo states that Rond has a son in LoTW, therefore, he at least has a son and baby mamma, maybe a wife...

Thanks. I'd never heard that fairy tale before. But I still don't really get the analogy. PG isn't royalty and she hasn't been supplanted by a servant to my knowledge.

On a side note. It seems to me that if Ultra Boy's ultra love could break SQ's control, Brainy should be able to do it in a snap. Also, it seems to me SQ could've had Tyroc take out all 4 Legionnaires in one shout. She could've also had Brainy protect her with his force shield, or imprison the 4 heroes in one. The fight was just over too quickly for my taste.

About the Goose Girl - there's an illustrated version (probably more than one but I'm refering to the one I used to own) where the girl is a little more proactive.
Somehow, I can't remember, she's walking through the town holding a goose and someone touches the goose and sticks to it. Then, someone touches THAT person and sticks to him/her.
On and on, everyone who touches one of them can't let loose and the girl keeps on walking through the town, sort of like a 'konga line'.
That's what gets the king's/prince's attention, etc..

Anyway, that's what I saw when she said she was just the goose girl, but she'd brought friends.

I don't see as well as I once did, and I can't make out an image of the little Dyogene.
I just saw green light stuff and went with the Mogo Jr. idea, which still works for me until next issue.
sigh

I put the word wife in ' ' because it seemed easier than explaining she might be a girl friend or common law wife or significant other or whatever.
I guess it didn't work.
Go figure.

[snip]

Mostly agreed. I can imagine her keeping the mask because it makes her look more formidable in an environment where most heroes don't cover their faces.

Still, covered face + that stoopid top of hers makes zero sense. Yeesh. Comic book brass, I already get that you see women as the sum of their woman-bits first and everything else second. Do you really have to be this obnoxious about it? <strike>Hell, just dress the poor woman in nothing but a mask and a thong and be done with it.</strike>

:rolleyes:

Whew! I thought I was the only one who was totally confused by whatever it was that Sensor Girl was doing.

As for SQ remaining in space, I assume that she didn't want to deal with the rest of the Legion or with cops if she didn't have to.

I liked the writing on Earth Man and Imra/Garth/Ayla this time out. The art looks good, too.

a nice but not great issue. i agree that Cinar's art does look a lot like Greg Laroque's in many places, especially the Saturn Queen pages. not as fond of the fill-in art this time out, though i loved it last issue.
i find it interesting that there's the hanging subplot of Lightning Lord's claim of having a twin, then Saturn Queen appears, and now the missing Ardeen-Ranzz twins are tracked to Avalon. wasn't Avalon the site of the big LSV war when KK died? i'm stumped as to what is going on.

the Imra/Ayla/Garth pages were the best and most interesting.
i found Aven's conversation with Li interesting and telling. perhaps Li isn't such a good guy after all. also, interesting was Shady's interaction with Earth-Man given the upcoming shocking cover.

Tyroc's sound powers working in outer space need to be explained. he even says "Owoooo" in the vacuum of space. perhaps Paul is forgetting they use the telepathic ear plugs to converse. AND just how is SQ flying around/talking/breathing in outer-space? does she have a stolen telepathic ear plug/flight ring/trans-suit? Grrr i hate stuff like this.

The fight where Val and NK died was on Orando, Jeckie's home planet, not Avalon.

I don't remember much about any story on Avalon.
The Companion that Levitz wrote long ago is super limited on Avalon. Almost everything written there is stated by the Ranzzs in this (#3) story.

I used my magnifying glass and found Dyogene but the last panel of that part of the story still seems to have the ring just on the planet and glowing, I think.

I also found a page I'd missed before, really.
The one with the Durlan's on Earth wanting revenge.
Revenge for McCauley killing Brande?
Are they after the Legion or the UP?
And how come they don't speak with a funny accent?

I still hate Shady's outfit.
And Jeckie's.
And they need to give Imra an updated, sleeveless look, too.
Oh, well.

If it helps, Ayla should switch to wearing shorts instead of... I'm gonna say a thong?... with her outfit.

I agree about her outfit.

That look is a hold over from her Adventure days, actually.
Craziness!

At least she doesn't have those weird lightning bolt things on her shoulders. Were those shoulder pads?

So I have read #3..

Thoughts: it took me a couple of reads to get what Sensor Girl actually did in the fight with Saturn Queen. The art should have made that a lot clearer.

I am now thinking that Shady and Earth-Man will be the ones to hook up, just something about the way they interacted on the alien planet...

I really REALLY dislike Tellus' fingers + opposable thumbs, and hope this is artist error as opposed to new canon. Part of Tellus' appeal is that he is so visually different from other superheroes, it would be a shame to have that diluted until he becomes the LSH's version of Ben Grimm...

I'm with jim, I didn't get the goose girl thing either; even after reading that wiki I don't get it.

Garth finding Imra I felt was a little jarring...the last time we saw Imra she was in fine condition; now suddenly she's exhausted and unconscious? That was a little strange. It took me a while to get that nothing had happened to her which we hadn't already seen.

All of the above sounds quite negative, but it's really just small niggles; I really enjoyed this issue, more than the last one even. That one panel of Sensor Girl taking on Saturn Queen is just gorgeous, and I think a great testament to the artist considering how hideous her current costume is.

I am still very definitely on board for this Legion run...the only thing I actually really would like to see that we haven't yet is a definitive roll call. I don't expect to see the entire team in every issue when it's such a big cast, but I would like to know for sure who is & isn't available...

Well, she doesn't need a telepathic earplug since she's telepathic already. I'm assuming transuits are pretty much standard issue and available at the local space Wal-mart or whatever. And it seems like everybody can fly nowadays. Didn't all of the LSV fly in that recent L3W story? Maybe flight rings are available at Wal-mart too.

Legion of Three Worlds showed the entire LSV being given rings that Superboy Prime burned an 'S' into with his heat vision, and, inexplicably, many non-flying members of the LSV / Super-Assassins / Fatal Five were then shown flying around in combat scenes, so, apparently, if Superboy Prime's carves an 'S' into something with heat vision, it turns into a Flight Ring.

Maybe he also stared at Saturn Queen's bosums and gave them life-support powers, as well...

This seems eminently reasonable to me.

Heh.

San snark, which is hard for me, it being my default setting, Superboy Prime's LSV had access to Saturn Queen and Esper Lass, who could have delved the Flight Ring mechanics out of the minds of those Legionnaires who understood their operations, and Cosmic King, who could replicate Element Whateveritis that makes them work. It's conceivable that Tharok could also figure out how they work, and, combined with Cosmic King and a telepath to provide an interpreter between them, fashion some rings with one or more of; flight, life-support, communications.

(I like the old telepathic earplugs and transsuits, but have also grown to appreciate the idea of flight rings having all of that stuff built in, as used in the Threeboot / Shooter run. I'm ready for the transsuits and earplugs to go the way of the flight belts, jet-packs and Cos' bubble-helmet.)

Now that'd be neat!

Or Colossal Boy could've given the LSV the flight ring specs back in Adv. 371-2.


I like Ayla's costume. At least it's not as revealing as Shadow Lass's and it doesn't have a boob window like Dawnstar or Sensor Girl.

I totally missed that slip-up on Paul's part regarding how Saturn Queen can breath and fly in space. I think an expanation to the readers might be in order, especially if Paul knows something we don't know or has something in the works.
This could just be a plain 'ol goof up though.

I think it's just laziness. Since all the Legionnaires can fly and function in space, it makes it easier if their opponents can too.

Didn't the LSVers breathe/fly in space during the v3 LSH/LSV war?

Set:

Not quite. Cosmic King - remember, his powers are transmutation, not magnetism - is shown transforming a piece of debris into the ring in question, presumably into a piece of Element-152. That should enable flight, although the full range of Legion Flight Ring abilities (e.g., communications and tracking) would probably require circuitry which is not present in the LSV rings.

Yeah, I mentioned that two posts down from the one you quoted, where I offered non-sarcastic ideas for how the LSV could have flight rings.

I just read #2 and #3 at once and I really enjoyed them quite a bit. Each issue has been not only good but a progressively better issue than the previous one. Paul is hitting his stride on the pacing / dialogue end of things and his old strengths continue to be a pleasure: action sequences, using a huge array of Legionnaires and creating multiple plotlines.

I also like the explanations he subtly provides for all the little continuity gaffes that preceded him. It's neat to know he's reading Legion World and sees where we pick up on the continuity trivia that is pretty ridiculous to keep track of--and then addresses it. It's kind of like a little game we're playing.

The art is terrific but I agree that the inkers are kind of hurting the book more than anything. That's my one major complaint I'd like to see improved.

Honestly, these three issues are better than any Legion material we've seen in YEARS.

Random thoughts;

I like the purple bubbles from Cos' magnetism on page three better than the concentric rings they've been using lately (which are fugly, IMO).

Kirt's GL uniform is not flattering. It looks like he has a girdle holding in his beer gut or something (and I know he has that normally, but it's just way more in-your-face with the green and white...). So not slimming.

I like that Cos sends a team to help him, figuring that whatever the Ring thinks is a threat to sentients is worth a team of Legionnaires.

Cinar draws Saturn Queen so much better than Perez. There, I said it. I can go directly to hell for this blasphemy now...

The way Imra tells Garth to 'Open for me' and he's 'Got it. We'll find them.' says everything about their relationship I wanted to see in a pair of panels on p 10. Very smooth. I imagine that this is what Shooter meant by a good synergy between writer and artist leading to 'visual storytelling.'

Hints that Garth has holes in his memory on p 12? Hmm. There's a plot hook there, dangling in front of me. So shiny. Must. Not. Bite. Hook...

The picture of Sun Boy reaching down, arms trailing fire, lending power to Earth-Man on p 22 is interesting. Nice use of perspective in the pose, and to someone who has grown used to anatomy in comic-books being an afterthought, it's nicely composed.

I do not get the Goose Girl comment on p 28. Did she 'goose' Saturn Queen?

Cinar's art, if there isn't some guest artist in a few pages or panels, can be wildly inconsistent. Saturn Queen looks completely different on the top of the p 28, and Jo looks very cartoony, almost anime, on p 30 where Jeckie uses her powers to make the mind-controlled Legionnaires see her as Saturn Queen giving them a command to 'attack the Legionnaires' while placing an illusion of the Legionnaires over Saturn Queen's position.

On the other hand, Jeckie has never looked better in that asstacular costume as she does on the bottom of p 30 (and on p 31, standing over SQ), telling them to 'do as your queen commands!' She's got some serious back going on, and even has a little bit of a tummy. By comic-book standards of beauty, even those tiny hints of Jeckie being a 'full-figured gal' are pretty rare. Or is it a hint? Did Karate Kid's brief resurrection actually have consequences and is their a royal bun in the oven?

The group scene on 33 (why no page numbers? Arg!) gives a nice view of Sun Boy's new costume, of which I now approve. It retains enough classic elements to work for me.

Invisible Jacques skunk-lock is back. I was wondering if it had grown back dark in the years since the GDS and was all dark again as a sign that he wasn't the frightened rookie that he was during the GDS. Apparently not. Just a coloring error. His costume looks like he should be performing with Stryper...

We get our first good look at Element Lad's costume on p 34, and I like everything but the pixie gloves. It will never replace the green and blue look as my favorite, but it's probably the second-best look he's ever had.

Cinar doesn't seem to like drawing wrists very much, as almost all of the boy Legionnaires have something going on to obscure that area. Generally, I don't mind, but the brown wrist-wrap bracers on Sun Boy kinda break up the lines of the rest of his costume, and the folded up mini-gloves on Element Lad's costume look kinda goofy...

I must say, I'm really, really enjoying the Legion's rebirth and Paul's handling of it. This is the way I like my Legion to be written!

Happy camper here.

You're just going to HAVE to learn to bitch and moan some more like the rest of us, if you ever hope to fit in around here, Doctor One.

Just read # 3...

Projectra looked AWFUL... please put her back in the blue/purple Sensor Girl outfit (or some variation thereof) from the late Baxter run.

The art is fine. Cinar's covers (2 and 3 anyway) are EXCELLENT though.

I kinda liked how Earth Man decided the power of a GL is not for him... it's like one of those deals where you may THINK being an actor or rock star or super-powerful would be awesome but then it turns out it sucks hard eggs. Nice resolution.

I'm happier with the Legion than I've been since the first handful of issues of DnAs THE LEGION. That's good.

I agree that Ayla's outfit is better than Tasmia's and some of the others.
I'm not fond of the underpant look, though, on her or any of them.
I'm not happy with mixing the era's, either.

That being said, I enjoy Cinar's art.
His Saturn Queen is magnificent, really, and like Set said, he has some lovely storytelling moments.
He makes Imra's 'look' work, including that funky costume.
I think that he'll probably develop over the next few years into a superstar.

I DO wish the colorist would get things straight more though.
I imagine it's hard getting everything right though, especially for Legion fans.

I really dislike Ayla and Shady's costumes...they just seem to be a step backwards maturity-wise for both of them. Then again, Ayla seems to be with Brin again, so maybe a step backwards is kind of the point..?

Shady, I totally agree on Cinar's Saturn Queen. "Magnificent" is the perfect word for it--she looked so regal and full of authority. Loved it!

I have a lot of problems with the Levitz3 Legion, and this issue in particular. The dialogue is clunky, the art is erratic, the plots flip-flop all over the place, and secondary characters like Saturn Queen and Harmonia Li leech panel time for no apparent reasons connected to the central storylines. Tyroc turned into a meat-puppet after years in limbo seems like a nasty joke against a character the writer admittedly doesn't like. Unless Sensor Girl has the Id-manipulating powers of evil 3boot Projectra, I'm at a complete loss to explain how she defeated SQ. I'm bored at the prospect of Earth-Man getting all lovey-dovey with the Legionnaires, and I dislike seeing favorites like Element Lad being jobbed to him. Three issues in and we wind up at The Great Darkness Theme Park - which has "hoax" written all over it. My patience is wearing thin.

Then I stop to think of the ugly alternative -- the Legion written by Geoff Johns or one of his peons like James Robinson, had Levitz not stepped in. I will give Mr. L. the rest of the arc to change my mind, if only because he seems to honesty *care* about the Legion, whereas his immediate predecessors obviously didn't give a crap. Plus, he's willing to openly reject some of their worst junk (Titan colonized by bottle city Lanothians, etc.), and overturned at least one of the stale, old romances (Shady/Mon) Johns had reintroduced for no better reason than earning some nostalgia points. I figure that's worth the benefit of the doubt of two or three more issues.

The artwork may have failed to convey this, but I thought that Sensor Girl had used illusions to trick the mind-controlled Legionnaires into thinking that *she* was Saturn Queen, and cast an illusion of the Legionnaires they were supposed to beat up over the place where Saturn Queen was standing, so they ended up beating her up instead, while the illusions of Tinya, Jo, Tellus, etc. faded away as Saturn Queen took it on the chin.

I certainly can't dispute the rest of it. Element Lad has already been shown as capable of altering the atmosphere of a planet single-handedly (in the Great Darkness Saga, no less), so Earth-Man and his GL ring should have been surplus to the requirements, and it sure as heck shouldn't have been Kirt that thought of how to use Jan's powers to address the situation.

I do like the look on Jan's face, 'though, as Earth-Man reaches out to absorb his power. He sure didn't look fond of the liberty being taken...

I think I am with Tromium and IAM Legion at this point. Issue #3 has been very weak, suffering for dull dialoguing, all-over-the-place plot scheming (but not in a good Levitz-Giffen way) and really awful pacing. It seems clear to me that Levitz did a whole amount of re-writing for issue #1 and now he is proof-checking less as the amount of work and time consumes him. It reads badly.
I think Shooter, if given this original team, would still be writing a better book (in fact, his last 5 issues were way better than these 3 ones). I'll give Levitz the benefit of being out of touch with writing for some time. To be frank, Robinson managed to write the voice of the characters better too.
And I hated the last scene. It seems so obvious DC would try to come up with Great Darkness Saga II so soon that is painful. So far, very underwhelmed. And don't even get me started at that awful Adventure Comics run. Kevin Sharpe is NOT a good choice of artist (he still needs a LOT of practice to be in a DC book) and stories are really, really badly written. Painfully dated.
Looking forward to Legion Annual with Giffen, though. That's the good stuff.

I wonder if people feel something physical when Earth-Man absorbs their power, like they're being drained. It could be a pretty creepy feeling.

A good question. Colossal Boy also looks displeased at the riots when Earth-Man 'borrows' his power. Dirk is the only Legionnaire as of yet that has willingly given him a dose of power, while he's taken it from Gim (twice) and Jan without asking.

Even if it doesn't feel creepy, it's certainly rude!

This sort of thing never really came up with characters like Duplicate Boy or Amazo or the Composite Superman, since they didn't have to touch the individual they were mimicing.

If that feeling's vaguely sexual, perhaps that's what leads to issue 6's hook-up!

That would also explain Dirk's willingness to give him a dose of his power!

I just picked up #3 variant with Cham/Validus and it looks ok but nothing "wow" for me. Lee's previous 2 covers (Saturn Girl, Superboy/Krypto) were much better, and especially the background detailing which seems rushed and pretty boring with this issue.

Does anyone know what Legionnaire will be featured next month and how many variants in total will there be?

Dirk will donate power, but only if he gets to be on top?

Ew!

Ok, Earth-Man has ditched the GL ring. So, what was the point of him getting it in the first place? Is the ring going to become some kind of hot potato like the "H" dial or something? There really didn't seem to be any point to giving him that ring other than the sheer surprise of it. I'm still interested to see where this goes, I just hope it actually goes somewhere fairly soon.

[cynical] To trick GL compleatists into buying the book? [/cynical]

Hopefully, Paul will show that his absorbency power was the reason he was chosen or something and make it a part of the upcoming storyline or else I'll agree with you guys. Maybe we'll see a moment in which he uses the green will power energy he absorbed from the ring to save the day or something.

OR...maybe the ring needed to leech off of his power/Legionnaires power for something and that's why chose Kirt. I just hope a reason is given.

He couldn't have gotten it due to his fearless virtue.

can someone show us the jim lee variant covers?
i'd LOVE to see them.
thanks!

The guy helping out Cinar inks his own pencils. I think his finishes are better than the regular inker's. Wonder if he'd be willing to just ink?

I think Cinar is solid -- but not quite strong enough to give the Legion the panache, I'd like to see. A more stylized inker would certainly help.

Historically, Earth-Man just absorded leftover energy from other characters. They didn't even need to be present. So, he doesn't really need active energy -- and it probably has no effect on the person whose power he duplicates.

Except for the 3 issues that are already out, they have not been revealed.

I didn't think it was a thong. I'd be happy if they just gave her a pair of tights.

The first time I read this issue, I wasn't really feeling it - but that may just have been due to the bad mood I was in because of the fact that my just-bought copy had some weird water damage all over it. Grrrr....

But after going back to the store and getting a new one and re-reading it - I'm a lot happier with it.

Random thoughts -

* I really liked the green and white GL version of Earth Man's costume. Nice touch.

* Glad to see him get rid of the ring at the end though, and hopefully bringing that storyline to a close. I do NOT want a GL in the Legion (even though it's fairly obvious someone else will be receiving the ring soon).

* Other costume raves - love Element Lad's redesign! A lot! Great job Cinar (or whoever). I am also still a big fan of a lot of the other redesigns - very much including Ayla, Jacques and Saturn Queen (whose outfits were all dissed in this thread I believe )

* Costumes I'm Meh on - Sun Boy. I don't hate it but his original outfit is still so much better. A pointless change IMO. Tasmia. It's very... revealing... but the way it was drawn in this issue clicked with me for some reason. Don't mind an improvement but don't mind if it stays either.

* Costumes I hate - Sensor Girl. This character needs a top to bottom redesign. Everything about her current look is hideous. Still hate the name too. Bring back Princess (or Queen) Projectra. Tyroc. Boring outfit and he needs hair dammit. Aven. What a weird and ugly robe he's got on. His Reboot appearance was so much cooler. Phantom Girl. Something else else about it is starting to really annoy me. Would love to see her in something fresh and original too.

* The Durlan Revenge Squad seem a bit silly so far but I'm willing to give them some slack. I hope that subplot goes somewhere more interesting than I'm expecting it to.

* The art was a bit patchy (Jacques didn't look anywhere near as hot as he did last issue for example) but I still liked it all and am very grateful to have these artists on this book rather than some worse ones.

* The Darkseid reveal at the end was extremely boring and uninspiring IMO. Don't like New Gods interacting with mainstream DCU heroes and don't like 21st century DC characters (other than the Superman ones) interacting with the Legion. This is the double whammy of that. Plus, I've already read the Reboot's hideous attempt to redo the Great Darkness Saga. I really hope Paul isn't going there too.

All in all, I'm still a happy Legion camper.

The ways some posters in this forum find to bash Geoff Johns makes me laugh sometimes.

So Geoff's showcasing of Mon and Tasmia as in a relationship (as they were at the time of the Crisis - when Geoff's Lo3W team were meant to be plucked from) isn't just sticking to their established history of the characters but rather "earning some nostalgia points"?

So what does that make the fact that he broke up Rokk and Lydda - another long-time Legion couple?

agreed. Sure, Johns wasn't perfect. But no one could ever please everyone (and some everyones more than others).

I have to hand it to Geoff though ... he was a big part of getting The Legion on live-action TV (finally!) via the Smallville series, which may turn out to be more than just a one time thing.

I didn't mind his writing on Lo3W either ... hey that is a huge number of players, not to mention history, to juggle for any writer. I think he did it pretty well.

There are lots of things I hate about Johns' writing in general, but I don't think he can be blamed for/given credit for Shady and Mon being together as of LO3W. That's just maintaining the status quo.

Given that Shady severed her own finger as a gesture of devotion to him, I'm actually really surprised that they have split and I hope there is a VERY compelling reason for it.

Rokk and Lydda being apart I think is probably a good thing for her and a bad thing for him...I like to hope that this is a temporary thing and that they will end up back together again at some point with the upshot being that she gets to form relationships with the other Legionnaires beyond being Cos's girlfriend...

I still don't get how Night Girl can be eligible for full membership, considering she's got the same limitation she's always had.

I agree that I would like her to be featured as other than Rokk's girlfriend.

Maybe Shady and Lydda could be the new lesbian couple, since Vi and Ayla appear to be no more.

Y'know, the thing I never got about Night Girl's limitation....how hard would it be for anyone with half a brain to have just come up with a transuit which is light-repellent for her? They could leave her eyes uncovered so she can still see, but it would prevent any light from reaching her - and for a lot of her career she's been fully covered from the neck down anyway, so she wouldn't really even have to modify her costume design all that much, just add a cowl really...

I can understand that's kind of cheating on one hand, but not really any more so than it is for Tellus to have his helmet, or Wildfire or Quislet their containment vessels..

^ I think they did something like that for Dirk Morgna in the Reboot when his powers went out of control for a while.

It is a pretty easy solution that they they should really get around to implementing for Lydda, sooner rather than later.

I second Blacula's seconding of razsolo's post.



They can do anything they want with NG's relationship status, if we could just see that happen. Even if she was still a Sub or a reservist, it would totally up her awesomeness quotient.

I don't think there is any change to the limitations of Night Girl's powers. With the passage of time she has continued to prove herself as a person of character. Polar Boy established that a sub can make a good transition to the Legion. The rules have evolved and changed as time has passed by. For example, the limitation on married couples has been lifted. There's no reason that rules and standards on power restrictions shouldn't have changed. Those could all be factors in her finally receiving membership.

Too bad we haven't seen the story of how she became a full time member. This is the type of "unrevealed" story that would be ideal for Adventure Comics.

That would be cool!

Her powers were unchanged when she became a member but since then she was getting stronger as she hit shadow demons in L3W. At the end of L3W she was seen in sunlight carrying something large and presumably heavy during the rebuilding of Smallville. If this change was permanent then she is a lot more powerful than she used to be.

What would be really cool was if the treatment that gave Lydda her strength in the dark also gave her another power in the light only her father didn't realise because there is no sunlight on Kathoon. In checking out her shadow demon enhanced strength, Brainy discovers thatin sunlight Lydda can create Quantum energy or something.

It occurred to me that the flying, sentient, GL ring-worthy bugs might be a juxtaposition to cockroaches, which seem to repressent time or time travel. Perhaps an insectoid Green Lantern might be honed for a battle with the entity that killed the last (or latest) Lantern: Time Trapper Prime.

Saturn Queen talking and breathing in space has been done and didn't bother me as much as the fire she threatened Brainy with. Did it have a Wal*Mart flight ring or transuit? Unlikely.

Great idea, Kirt's power being used by Dyogene for some reason.
LOVE the new graemlin!!!

I think that his victims DO feel something, perhaps proportionately to how much he absorbs.

I agree that that might be addictive to some personalities, the lightheadedness, getting close to passing out, etc.

Very interesting insights.

Yes, I agree with the idea that something else, and possibly BIG, is going on with the ring and the GL.

I thought that the flame was Wildfire, 'mind' controlled and kept together by SQ.

I didn't have any trouble with Jeckie fooling the controlled Legionnaires with the illusions that caused them to attack SQ, either.
Both just seemed like good and interesting uses of Legionnaire powers, to me.

If I can actually see it, I can usually flow with what's happening.
Cinar is still a little rough but I 'get' him.
Most of the time.

So who hasn't appeared yet in some capacity?

Star Boy
XS
Tenzil
Quislet

Anyone else?

shrinking violet
chameleon girl

and maybe Night Girl

I wonder if we'll see Star Boy or Star MAN when he does finally appear in this book.

Thanks, Candle, that hadn't occurred to me. It doesn't seem consistant with what has been shown of Wildfire's uncontained state, but it seems the most reasonable answer.

This Shady never did that. That was Post-Crisis Shady.

it's a durlan imposter.

A few thoughts:

1) What is the status of Bouncing Boy?

2) If Talok VII wives marry as much as, say, Liz Taylor, wouldn't their typing skills be seriously impeded?

3) Geoff Johns wrote THE best Legion story in the last two decades with that six part story in Action. That story has become the foundation for the two new Legion-based titles, where before there were none. He can write a Legion story ANY TIME he wants as far as I'm concerned.

This Legion goes up through Magic Wars, doesn't it? Didn't she sever her finger before Magic Wars?

I quit before the 'Magic Wars,' so I have no idea what they are, but, IIRC, Shady severed her finger after Mon was beat up by the Time Trapper, and the whole mission against the Time Trapper was something to do with the 'death' of Superboy.

It would seem to me that the big fight with the Time Trapper never happened in this continuity, since Luornu had two selves before losing 'Una' in the past, and Shady still has a finger, and Duplicate Girl doesn't have Brainy's force field belt (which he gave her when he left the Legion after the vote brought about after he caused the death of Jaxon Rugarth in the fight against the Time Trapper).

The 'cutoff point' must have been before this fight, since none of it's consequences exist.

There is no pocket universe Superboy, anymore, so there's no reason to have a story about avenging his death in continuity anymore. So Shady's finger should be intact regardless of the cutoff point.

Is anyone else imagining a 70s-style cover with Mon-El saying, "Wait! Superboy has to die, or Shadow Lass will sleep with Earth Man!"

No pun intended.

No. Just you, crackers!

And the Time Trapper yelling, "Again with the finger!!"

Upon re-reading, caught the hint that Earth Man's father might have served within the upper echelons of the UP fleet. This might denote a long running rivalry between Kirt and Gim, or even perhaps their fathers, a second generation Allon/Niedrigh feud/rivalry. This may also explain why the former Absorbancy Boy adopted such an extreme xenophobic view (were he a true xenophobe the very idea of initially joining the Legion should have been repugnant to him) perhaps his father perished in a battle against the Khunds or Dominion. However, a more poignant plotline would be if the elder Niedrigh (and perhaps other members in a military family) died under an incident of "friendly fire" which could possibly have turned his son against the other UP member races as well...

Finally got it, read it, liked it. Really well done job by Mister Levitz thus far, lots of intersting storylines, one of which he already ended in a very satisfying way (Saturn Queen).

The only thing I'm still missing is a little bit more of an emphasis on characterization. Thus far, the focus was on the founders and B5 and Earth Man (the new, more and more intersting character). I'd like to see more from Jacques, Tyroc, Tinya, Dirk....

Having high hopes for the "saving the children" storyline, should be showing Garth and Imra at their best!

As for the artwork: Cinar still is okay, but I liked those few pages drawn by the fill-in Francis Portela (he was responsible for the Saturn Queen fight, wasn't he?). Reminded me a little bit of Frank Quitely. Especially liked Phantom Girls face...

hopefully

I hadn't thought of any of that, but you're absolutely right...makes perfect sense when you link all of those things together..

Who's "Duplicate Girl"?

Duplicate Damsel, formerly Duo Damsel. She actually returned Brainy's belt shortly after he gave it to her. Then in 5YL it was revealed that he'd used it to imbue her with her own force field.

It doesn't mean the cutoff point is before the right, it just means the fight didn't happen. Anything that is related to the death of Superboy is no longer in continuity, which includes the fight. Things which happened later but don't depend so much on Superboy's death are still in continuity.

Geoff Johns wanted a cutoff point at Crisis but I don't think Paul is using any cutoff earlier than the end of his series (#63).

If they want a conspiracy story, they can do that...just using some other thing as a catalyst (as they did with 5YL and Daxam.) But until they say as such, I;'m with Ken...everything else happened, just not the fight and fallout portions.

Thanks.
I know Duplicate Damsel (from Lo3W), but the Duplicate "Girl" threw me off.
I thought I might have missed something over the years! LOL

I personally don't see why the death of Superboy still can't be in continuity. Yes, it definitely was not the Superboy they had adventures with, but the Time Trapper still could have manipulated them into thinking it was to set off a number of dominos. It's definitely a complicated spin, but given how much Geoff Johns intimated that the Time Trapper has manipulated the Legion, it's far from out of bounds.

Has anyone anywhere (Geoff, Paul or otherwise) said that any version of that whole storyline (with it still mostly intact the way we remember it as I suggest but with a different spin on exactly what happened as opposed to how it was respun in 5YL) is definitely out of continuity?

It doesn't make sense to me that the cut was after Magic Wars. It wouldn't explain the disbanding, it wouldn't explain the retrobootage of their age (they look much younger now), it wouldn't explain the simplification of Legion universe as xenophobia-driven.
For me, it seems quite clear that the cut-off was right before Crisis. Or (most plausible yet) this is a "parallel" Universe (retrobooted), very similar to the previous one, in which things happened quite like until that moment of Crisis, which never happened.

Wait a minute: you're seriously suggesting that cutting it off after Crisis and cutting it off after #63 would show a noticeable "retrobootage of their age" difference?

I don't see how different cutoffs would change the xenophobia either. You could argue that we don't see it in the original series, but changing the cutoff really wouldn't improve that. The xenophobia is just a retcon (and throwing a couple of retcons in doesn't automatically make it a parallel universe).

I think Paul has chosen Crisis as a cutoff point but at the same time moved a bit forward in time to consider xenophobia as a rising threat. It doesn't seem very likely that this same team, which was shattered by the time of Magic Wars, would be so much in shape as it is. They were older too. Also, the worlds were in havoc. Now, they seem rigorously in so much shape as they were at the time of COIE.

When I say "parallel" universe, it's as parallel as the new Earth-Johns, which is not the original Earth One but an amalgamated Earth that is not the same one that came through after COIE. Meaning: after Infinite Crisis, we cannot say this is the original Legion, but as close to the original Legion as Johns/Levitz decide.

I'm sorry, but I thought I read here somewhere, that Paul had said in an interview that his series was going to start after Magic Wars and include Lo3W and the Action/Legion developments.

And we all know this isn't the same exact boot as the original Legion.
Right?
Because the differences are kind of huge!
(Lar seeding worlds, Kandor, Lana not being Insect Queen, no Pete Ross or Jimmy Olsen stuff, etc..)
In a minor reboot way, I guess, but really, there are huge differences.

This Legion is on the Post Infinite Crisis Earth 0 (otherwise known as New Earth) so by definitition is on a different Earth to any of those that went before. What is being discussed in this thread is how much of the history of any previous Earth's Legion has been duplicated.

As to ages, my guide is the age of the Ranzz twins. They must be about 5. So if previous Legion continuities are still relevant then the current run is about 5 years after 1984's Legion Annual 3 when the kids were born. Though that Annual featured the pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths Legion and we can only assume that the events on New earth were the same..

And this is precisely the problem I have with the new series. Practically speaking, this version has only existed since the 'Lightning Saga' storyline... there is no real prior history. We were told to presume that most of the history would be the same. In fact, Jeff Johns went as far as to state that ALL the pre-CoIE Legion stories were cannon.... but they are NOT. How can they be? So, we are still expected to presume that things are relatively the same until the story specifically states otherwise. So every time the story does contradict something that we supposedly 'knew' to be true about this Legion it is a surprise and a shock. So much so that it has become disconcerting and disheartening every time it happens (which seems to be several times an issue in both the LoSH and Adventure Comics). That would be bad enough if the only continuity issues were between this new version of the Legion and the one it is allegedly based on, but it doesn't even bother to maintain continuiity within it's own brief history. At the end of LoTW, Yat was over his depression enough to send out GL rings to find new wearers (including one to the secctor that contains Earth).... but in the opening pages of the new LoSH series we find a pitiful sulking Yat still boo-hooing and then the Poke'mon creature appears, takes a ring and bestows it upon Absorbancy Boy... WTF?!?
Sorry, but I am just about through with this sorry mess and DC in general.

I presume that we'll find out about the history of this Legion, slowly, but surely, in Adventure.

let the story unroll at its own pace. no use bursting an artery over it.

What we actually have is:

1) a series which is the same as the old Legion except for the death of Superboy and any changes made necessary by changes to other parts of the DCU (mostly Superboy/Superman, with some Flash and Starman).

2) the usual mistakes and retcons that happen in all series, whether they have been rebooted or not. (Especially after a change in writer. And Geoff Johns writing a series that used to be written by Paul is a change in writer.)

You're noticing 2) and blaming it all on 1).

If one Batman story contradicts another one from five years ago, we don't write "We're expected to believe things are the same as five years ago. But they obviously aren't! It's a shock! It's disconcerting to see something that we supposedly 'knew' to be true about Batman isn't! There is no prior history because we can't assume anything still happened!"

Yes, having contradictions is a problem. But you're mischaracterizing the scope of the problem if you say that a few contradictions mean it doesn't count as being the same series. *All series have this kind of contradiction*. That doesn't mean it's not the same series--if it did, no series would ever be considered the same as itself from a few years ago.

well said, Ken.

I agree.

I am just trying to say that by considering this Legion to be close to the original one but really a reboot, which it HAS to be, given the changes in the DCU, I can let the small stuff go.
Nothing becomes a 'shock' and I don't worry about continuity from before.

I just enjoy what I have now.

Except for the idea of Shady letting herself fall in love with EM.
Sex?
A child even.
Okay, I guess, if it has to be.
But, LOVE?
sigh

I felt the same way about DnA's Progenitor Jan.

Give it some time people.
We're only three issues in!
Give Paul some time to get up and running.
As long as he tells stories worth reading, and his characterization is as good as it was in the past, this will be a great series.

I'm afraid I'm just not as hung up on continuity as much as most people. As long as the basics are there, let's move on with new stories.

Woah! We're getting ahead of ourselves here, aren't we?
We don't know yet that it's Shady in bed with Earth Man!

True.

I hope it's Condo.

to me, it still doesn't have enough changes (from 60s-80s LSH) to really be considered a 'reboot,' but I agree it's debatable.

I prefer 'revamp,' but I'm slowly losing my dislike of the term 'retroboot.'

Sorry, the Batman comparison doesn't hold up. Batman has not been rebooted twice and then reintroduced with a solicited return of "the original". We're in unchartered territory here. This comparison feels like an attempt to dismiss the disappointment of fans who didn't get what was advertised.

We've been keeping track of how the current version of the Legion differs from the presumed departure point of the end of Magic Wars. Perhaps somebody could start a list of things that are the same. It might add some perspective to the debate.

For me, the original Legion was the team that carried over into the 5YL run. Giffen and the Bierbaums were much more respectful of the earlier series then those involved in this current venture. They were also more clear about what the differences were, and about what caused those differences. To be fair, it did take them a couple of years to spell it all out. Levitz has only had three issues so far. However, the first issue of the Lightning Saga story line had a June 2007 cover date. Proponents of a wait and see approach should hopefully be able to concede that the fans expressing frustration have been waiting for some time now.

I'm in for the long haul. I truly am finding quite a bit to enjoy with the new series. I have high hopes that it will continue to improve. That doesn't mean that the introduction of this version team hasn't been filled with mistakes, contradictions, and mismanagement. It clearly has. Fans who have stuck with it, in spite of their frustrations, deserve better than to be dismissed as petty continuity cops.

Paul is banking on the fact that most of us are rapidly approaching the age where we won't remember anything we last read two weeks ago anyway.

The point is that all series have inconsistencies. A series where the original has been brought back is going to have inconsistencies just like a series where the original was there all along.

Yeah, they were very clear about why "Cargg" was spelled with three "G"s. And why Sun Boy was a decaying animated corpse because one fan didn't like Sun Boy. And making Garth having been Proty since the 1960's is really respectful.

no, but Batman routinely gets killed/broken backs/replaced and other assorted "events," and has his own share of tricks being pulled on fans, it seems. It's close enough.

3 years is not that long in comics for complicated stories to get
unravelled. People waiting for the conclusion to1963 have been waiting 17 years (as one of many, many examples).

It seems to me that the frustration you describe is from the comics medium's bad habit of explaining too much up front.

I suggest that setting aside such expectations and allow oneself to be surprised and entertained may be a more rewarding approach, rather than tracking and cross-referencing every detail. Rather than trying to cram everything into a single linear chart, why not look at this Neoclassic Legion and 5YL as two separate branches of the same tree? Sharing a common trunk and growing out in different directions?

For the most part, I'm not reading posts by people wanting every detail presented upfront or wanting every detail to fit exactly perfectly. They just want stories that make sense.

People are wanting a level of quality that includes some research (a comic book series is a continuing storyline NOT a one off with no past or future after all) that usually comes from an editor or a respectful writer. And when they are presented with facts that differ from what's established, they want it to mean something to the story they are reading. Like clues to where the story is going and not like "being told everything upfront."

The fact is we've been subjected to sloppy writing and with plot points that don't go anywhere or mean anything for several years now. So, I think, the frustration is not only valid, it's warranted. We've accepted various retcons and reboots and now we're told that the "old continuity" is back only to have most of it be contradicted with each and every story we read in this restored universe.

What I don't understand is why some of us want people to just shut up and enjoy something they may or may not be enjoying just to make themselves happy cause they don't want to discuss the subject.

With that said, I do enjoy this series. I'm not as bent out by what Paul is doing as I was with Geoff and James. But, I do want some research and some quality checking done, though.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Of course it was respectful. No character was retrofitted or a huge chunk of history was deliberately erased (like 5YL has been). Fact is: retroboot was decided upon Geoff's personal preference. Nobody in this forum has even been able to explain WHERE the cut was made! Magic Wars? Crisis? 5 years later? None of them?

5YL is VERY clear on what it did: it took 5 years later and, on DC's editorial pressures, had to change things a bit (basically, erasing Superboy and getting on with it). Even with Glorithverse and the return of Mon-El, there was every attempt to say the past was all canon. The twist on Proty, the ordeal of Sun Boy (brilliant story by the way) was pretty much consistent with previous continuity (like it or not). Durlans becoming shapeshifters AFTER 21st Century is COMPLETELY contradictory: it denies Invasion, LEGION, REBELS and even recent issues of Superman!!! New Durla? That's way further from what originally happened.

There is a big difference in adapting things to new times. This is a new timeline, like it or not. It's not the original team, it's not even the original PREMISE for the team to exist. It's pretty clear (to me) that it is a similar universe to the original Pre-Crisis one, except that everything can be different and it will not be really contradictory because you can always shout Infinite Crisis.

I'm open to the common trunk approach. I'm also very open to enjoying a series that is a different version from the original concept but still inspired by it. I can enjoy various versions of Superman movies and television projects that contradict one another. I don't expect the Superman or Wonder Woman stories that I read in comics today to line up with the continuity of the adventures of these characters from 20 years ago.

The difference here, is that we were told, on more than one occasion, that the current Legion would be a return to the original. That wasn't an approach I ever wanted. To quote the old Debbie Harry song, "I don't like flashbacks in movies unless they tell what the future will be." What we were told has evolved into "based loosely on" previous continuity. That's a legitimate approach.

Given the set up, I think it is legitimate to ask questions like:

1) Why is Brainiac 5's personality so different?

2) Did the battle with the Time Trapper happen?

3) If so, what inspired it?

4) What is the current team's relationship with Supergirl? How does that relate to Supergirl's interactions with the threeboot team?

Ricardo also raises a good point about the apparent de-aging of the team. Personally, I would rather read about a teenage version of the team. We had that with the reboot and the 3boot.
It just feels odd to have the older, more grown up team introduced as Superman's contemporaries, and then to see their ages kind of rolled back.

Again, none of this derails the current book. However, they are all legitimate concerns. It's perfectly reasonable for posters to raise these issues and discuss their feelings about them. That's my only point. I'm getting a bit of a vibe of a backlash toward some posters for raising these types of questions. I'm encouraging them to keep raising these points, because I think they matter.

[snip]

Well, yes and no. I assume that there must be other fans who actually came back to this series of stories more or less "cold" regarding what's been going on for the last decade or so. I mean, I can't be the only one, right?

But I do get that the bait-and-switch is frustrating. I'm just trying to concentrate on the continuity that's being created now, not so much on everything that I might have missed.

Quote

What I don't understand is why some of us want people to just shut up and enjoy something they may or may not be enjoying just to make themselves happy cause they don't want to discuss the subject...

You've got me wrong, N. I don't want anyone to shut up. I'm just thinking that in a world where I can nip over to the IMDB and read pages and pages devoted to the gaffes and mistakes in various well-known movies and TV shows, well... these problems aren't all that unusual in mass entertainment, especially the serial kind. No matter how many groups of eyes look these things over, it seems like some mistake-- large or small-- always manages to get through.

Quote

...But, I do want some research and some quality checking done, though.

To know more about why the editorial net doesn't work better at catching what to fans are pretty obvious mistakes, I'd have to know more about the nuts and bolts of the editorial process itself, I guess. Maybe somebody who follows Levitz on Facebook can ask him about this...?

The old series happened except for anything related to the death of Superboy (and possibly to to other parts of the DCU).

Items 2 and 3 are related to the death of Superboy so the answer is clear: they didn't happen unless we're specifically told otherwise, and we haven't been specifically told otherwise.

Item 4 is related to another part of the DCU. The fact that un-booting the Legion cannot automatically un-boot the rest of the DCU isn't something you can really blame on the Legion team. Anyway, all evidence from Supergirl #52 indicates that as much of Supergirl's preboot appearances as possible, including the Brainiac 5 romance and her death, are back. The threeboot happened too. The rest has to wait for Supergirl Annual #2.

The only one that's actually a question is #1. I'll freely agree that Brainy is out of character. But you're talking about it as if it's something typical, rather than being one of the two only serious inconsistencies Paul has written so far (the other was the Durlan stuff). Even then, it's still possible it has an explanation (notice the cockroach references).

Again, I think they are all legitimate questions. I disagree that the answers are clear.

Nobody has ever said that everything except issues related to the death of Superboy happened. I read Levitz's recent comments quite differently. He stated pretty clearly that he didn't see the point in telling the exact same stories again in Adventure. Doesn't the same apply to the main series? I prefer to think that the battle with the Time Trapper happened. I would like to know what inspired it.

I'm not asking that the rest of the DCU be unbooted. I don't consider the current version of the Legion to be an unboot. I see it as another reboot. I'm not blaming the current creative team. I'm asking them to give us a line here or there that explains some of the discrepancies.

If there is an explanation for Brainiac 5's personality change, I would love to read it. More to the point, though, I would prefer a nicer Brainiac 5. More old school Querl and less Vril.

That's it! Proty/Garth has been rebooted as Brainy/Cockroach!

While it crash and burned spectacularly, I have a lot of respect for how Shooter attempted to make lemons out of Waid's lemonade, rather than just say 'screw it' and create yet another continuity.

I'm giving Levitz the same benefit-of-the-doubt, for the most part, and hoping that he can either work with, or ditch, the various inconsistencies that Johns added to advance his own bring-back-Conner / bring-back-Bart / kill-all-GLs-so-Sodam Yot-can-be-'The-Last-Green-Lantern' storylines.

Levitz has the far, far harder job than Shooter did. He's trying to salvage the classic team, with decades of continuity, from the recent damage, while working around editorial mandates, while Shooter just had to craft some interesting stories using a team that had only been around for three years, didn't even exist in the standard DCU and didn't have to be consistent with 21st century plotlines, and didn't have that many fans (comparitively).

Shooter, in that respect, had it made, compared to what Levitz is trying to pull off here, since it seems like the writers over at War of the Superman were actively trying to dick him over at every turn.

"Oh, Titanians are really Lanothians now..."
Paul "Denied. There were Lanothians on Titan, but the Titanians aren't them. Hit me again."

"Earther were always xenophobic and hateful."
Paul "Fine, I'll mention that there were some evolutionary throwbacks like you back in the days when RJ Brande founded the team, even if the planet had been host to various aliens, including much-beloved legendary heroes, for TEN CENTURIES."

"Durlans couldn't shapeshift back them."
Paul "My slappin' hand is getting itchy..."

"Brainy has the personality of Vril, Dirk has the personality of Drake, Brek has the personality of Dirk, Chameleon Girl has hair, Sensor has forgotten why she changed her name and costume completely to make her abilities more effective, the rules about multiple members with the same powers are gone, and since the Legion will argue to kill Prime, the code against killing is gone too, and Brin & Ayla and Blok & Mysa are totally getting it on."
Paul "Don't make me come over there."

This doesn't mean it's a new timeline, it means that he can tell untold stories or stories from different perspectives. Just because the stories haven't been told before doesn't mean they will contradict continuity.

In other words, you "prefer" to believe something that causes a hole in the timeline, then you point to the hole in the timeline as evidence that it's a reboot. The only reason the hole is there in the first place is your preference to believe odd things.

You're saying that it's another reboot because there are holes in the timeline. But holes related to other DCU characters are unavoidable. Paul doesn't write those characters, so he can't fix those holes.

Carggg with 3 "G"s seemed kinda appropriate. Agree fully with the dismal quality of the other two 5YG plotlines and would have added Sean/Shvaugh too.
Levitz himself has been guilty of altering established Legion related names and places (i.e. Vengar to Venegar, Malor to Mallor, and Zoon to Zuun) but would hardly be accused of being disrespectful the to Legion mythos.

I have to say that I am extremely puzzeled by your attitude given your thread here . Your comparison to Batman falls like the house of cards that it is. This situation is NOTHING like what has happened in that series. It has been 3 years since the Legion was brought back and purposely advertised as the 'Original' Legion. When numerous contradictions to this being true were pointed out the official word from DC and all envolved was 'Wait and see'. Well, I have waited for 3 years now and not only have a very few of the original questions been answered, but there are an ever-growing pile of new questions added with every issue that even contradict the recent past. My patience is exausted. The writing (not by Levitz alone, but Johns and the writer/s of R.E.B.E.L.S.) has been sloppy and self serving. Not one of them could be bothered to do the tiniest bit of research into what they were writing and none of them cared. Each of them has written what they want to further their own goals, pet storylines and favorite characters. Not one seems to give a damn about Legion that was, is or will be. It is all about what they want to do in the story now and if it doesn't fit with continuity (past or current)...who cares? The closest comparison I can make is to 'Aeon Flux' ... except that Aeon Flux was both stylish and entertaining and the current Legion is neither.

Nowhere in that thread do I claim that the contradictions mean that it's not the original Legion, or that we shouldn't assume things are the same as the original Legion.

We all know there are contradictions. But in modern comic book writing, one writer will often contradict the previous writer. That just means it's bad writing--it doesn't mean that it's a different continuity.

We all know this. There has been a lot of bad writing on the Legion. (Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to tie Dream Girl to the Dreaming?) That doesn't mean it's a different continuity, it means it's the same continuity with bad writing.

And almost none of this is due to Paul, anyway. He's tried to fix some of the problems caused by other writers (notice how fast he reversed that Lanoth stuff?) and the only places he really messed up badly are the Durlan story (which still depended on another writer as well) and Brainiac 5's characterization.

The Lanothian thing makee the fact that there are planets full of life so close to Earth make more sense,

Wasn't the rule about multiple powers thrown out when Lightning Lass regained her powers? And the Legionnaires had no problem ignoring that law when a Kryptonian or Daxamite wanted to join the team. Cosmic Boy could have been in a situation similar to Cyclops', in which drastic means were taken in order to survive.

Johns was making a statement that some people can't be redeemed, which is sadly the truth.

Brin and Ayla broke up prior to the COIE, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have found eachoter again. Blok and Mysa were very close too.

Not when you're talking about 1000 years of Earth colonization of the solar system and beyond.

Whoa! Easy fellas!

Anyhow, circling back to the Time Trapper/Conspiracy question of whether it's still in continuity made me want to bring up again a post I made a couple of pages ago that was buried amid other back-and-forths:

I mean, it's a bit of a brain-warper, but I can still see the story happening more or less exactly as it did with the Time Trapper making the Legion believe it was their Superboy that died. Presumably, some time after Magic Wars (no reason to assume that didn't happen), they learned the truth. Perhaps this was just prior to (or even during "off camera") the Lightning Saga appearance. The Trapper's manipulations could even explain anomalies like the involvement of Karate Kid and Una in Countdown.

See? It doesn't take all that imagination when you've got a nemesis with the power of the Trapper. Maybe it's a little too deus ex machina for the tastes of some fans, but there's certainly plenty of precedent for him doing that kind of thing in Legion history.

The only quibble I'd have with this is that all of the consequences of that fight have ceased to exist, as has the reason it happened in the first place. Shady still has her finger. Lu still had a second duplicate (and no force field belt). Brainy was never nearly voted off the team and then quit anyway. 'Superboy' never died.

One *could* go through some convoluted permutations to preserve this story, but the easier solution is that whenever the 'cutoff' happened, it was before this experience.

Other evidence as to when the 'cutoff' happened is that Sarya is still alive. That was a powerful story, where Sensor 'freed' her from the Eye, but if she's back, my first notion is that this story didn't happen. I'm willing to accept that this powerful moment is no longer in continuity, if only because I'm a total fan of Sarya.

Since I know bupkiss about these 'Magic Wars,' which apparently happened after I dropped out of fandom (indeed, the death of Sarya is one of the last Legion comics from that era I remember), what, if any, changes did that storyline bring about?

Are some of the Magic Wars changes visible in the current team?

The whole 'Dawnstar gets possessed and hacks off her wings' thing was also after my time. Was this part of the Magic Wars, or before, or after it? 'Cause it looks like this is also not in continuity.

Those are plausibly mistakes. Carggg was a deliberate retcon.

But still minor. It's not like COIE, or Death of Superman or Earth as a Xenophobe planet for 10 centuries (10 CENTURIES!!!) retcon.

As for Magic Wars, I really don't see how the current team can be remotely the one at the end of Magic Wars. The team was GONE at that moment. Even if they had eventually off-scene reconciled, they would have been older, not younger (they are mid-twenties currently).

The first statement was meant to refute your assertion that only those things related to the death of Superboy didn't happen. I just don't understand what you are basing that assertion on. I never said I considered this a new timeline - reboots and alternate timelines are different things to me. Yes, it is very possible to tell untold stories that don't contradict stories that have already been told. I never said that it wasn't. The origin presented in the Action story line, Secret Origins, and the last three issues of Adventure all contained some contradictions, however.

Again, it hasn't been stated clearly anywhere that the Time Trapper story didn't happen. It was a powerful story. One of my favorites of Levitz original run. I hope some version of it remains in the current continuity. Given the nature of the villain, there are lots of ways that it can still be included. I never cited that story as evidence that this a reboot. My feelings on that have more to do with the awkward attempts to match a pre-crisis Legion to a post crisis (post Infinite Crisis) Superman. The changes necessary to make it work are just too big to be considered "retcons". I find it hard to accept it as anything other than a reboot, regardless of whether or not the Time Trapper story happened. Yeah, I buy into odd belief systems at times. This isn't an example of one of those times. It may be a disagreement on the definition of the word reboot, but I hardly think my views on this are any more or less odd than yours.

I'm not asking Paul Levitz to fix holes in anyone else's continuity. I blame Johns for more of the inconsistencies than Levitz. There is much about the current series and its relationship to other versions of the team that is unclear. There are things that are not clear about how this team fits into the larger DC Universe. I'm simply asserting my belief that fans seeking clarity on those points shouldn't be muzzled. This kind of attention to detail has always been a strength of Legion fandom, not a weakness. Most of us want to see the new series succeed. Otherwise we wouldn't be bothering to try to make sense of it.

I LOVED the writer connecting Nura to the Dreaming!
Scrumpious possiblilities with that!
Yum!
The DCU of the 21st century isn't any closer to the colonization of other planets in their solar system than we are in our universe!
Much less colonization outside their star system.

And what changes have there been on Earth in the human genome pool since 1010 AD?
Name one.
Even in the DCU, not much has changed.

Technology has, yes, but biology hasn't.
{Some of our cultures have gotten taller, for example, but that's more environmental (food supply) than biological.)

And a thousand years is nothing in biological terms, even if you take into consideration the metagene.

But adding a race of nonhumanoid telepaths to a human colony on Titan suddenly makes the possibilities open up, imo, and now the changes make sense.
It's not out of continuity either.
The Lanothians just weren't mentioned before.

That's one of the wonderful things about the Legion. You can add anything you want to them because of it's the future. Time is allowed to pass there. The characters can get older because they aren't necessarily trapped by the same rigid timekeeping as the DCU of the present.

Sun Boy didn't start out a decaying corpse in the TMK era, ya know.
That happened midway, after his death/murder/suicide, and Wildfire inhabited the corpse.

And Proty's gentle spirit inhabiting Garth made sense, explaining his breakdowns in his later years and knowing how the machine actually worked helped to explain why Lar was so emotionally weak after the Eltro story.

The most obvious Magic Wars change that springs to my mind is that Magnetic Kid sacrificed himself. It would be nice to know if this actually happened or not. Obviously, the other four members that joined the Legion alongside him are still members so that kind of leads to him having joined, but then again who knows? Maybe there's a new continuity now where Polar Boy, Tellus, Quislet and Sensor Girl joined with no fifth member. Maybe Night Girl or Chameleon Girl was the fifth member. Maybe Infectious Lass was the fifth member. We don't really know.

There's also this (from Chaim Mattis Keller's awesome Legion helpfile): The results of the Magic Wars were far-reaching. The breakdown of science led to mass escapes from the prison world, Labyrinth, many people found themselves magically changed or enhanced (and during the Magic Wars had fought against those who were trying to restore science; in this sense it might have been considered a true "war"), such as the mercenary Grinn, many planets' economies collapsed, precipitating a massive depression within the United Planets, and Tharn became the new Sorcerers' World.

Has the Sorcerors' World in the current continuity been specifically referred to as Zerox? I can't remember. That might be something to look for as well?

As I said in that thread on this subject:
"they have been clammoring for the return of the 'original' Legion. And, that Legion is the sum of it's history ... Good, Bad or indifferent ... Change enough of it and it is nolonger the thing people have been clammoring for, but merely another derivitive substitute. Different people will have different levels of tolerance for changes to the history but the more changes DC/Levitz makes, the more likely that that tolerance point will be reached or exceeded for more fans ..... 'the death of a thousand cuts'."
I stand by that. For whatever reasons DC and it's various writers have, their writing... good, bad, indifferent and selfish is changing the history of Legion and making it something diffferent, something other than the original. If it were something good then that would be fine, but it isn't even that.

by that rigidity, Adv 247 was the only appearance ever of the "original," unaltered Legion.

It's post five year gap, so it's not in continuity.

What are you talking about? They're the same age now as they were during V3.

I suggest you re-read my post and actually pay attention to it this time. The phrase "sum of it's history" in particular. Even I am not so rigid that I don't allow for organic changes over time to a 'throw-away' concept that suddenly developed a fan base and was further developed. Growing, developing and making slow changes to an idea in the past as opposed to claiming something is the 'original' while making needless and confusing changes out of laziness are 2 completely different situations.

That's a bit too harsh. I'm starting to understand your status note.

Anyway, that being said. I agree with your premise. One off stories like Adv. #247 or Cary Bates mis-managements of the 70's among others are usually written off by the following writers and fandom. We'll probably write off most of the nonsensical crap since Lightning Saga as well.

That hardly excuses continuing the trend or not actively lessening it by picking up a Who's Who or some previous written stories which I think is what most people are complaining about.

I am looking at this through the eyes of a history major. There are many things in history that people think are true but have been proven otherwise (like Marie Antoinette saying "Let them eat cake"). People are biased towards their causes. The Legion has so many members and POV that it is entirely possible that their records vary greatly. They were also teenagers so it's possible some records got destroyed out of carelessness or jealousness.

And maybe some missions were like that episode of Star Trek where Sisko erases everything about a secret mission.

me, too, RA. Rather than see Legion lore as an all-encompassing 'grand narrative' that explains everything I prefer it as a collection of different storytellers providing their own interpretations, bouncing off each other's prior ideas/works.

Real history is not written as a sequence of stories. The question "if what we know about Marie Antoinette is wrong, doesn't that mean that years of Marie Antoinette stories after that are filled with silly moments?" doesn't happen.

And Star Trek is known for having bad continuity. Comparing something to Star Trek in this regard isn't exactly high praise.

A few decades ago, there were alot of theories that primitive people were matriarchial. Now most of those theories have been disproven, and many say primitive society was more or less equal.

In the context of the LSH, it makes perfect sense that all these characters view their missions and roles differently. Say that Brainiac 5 sits down to write a Database Entry, but in a few minutes is interrupted and passes it on to Timber Wolf. Then Timber Wolf adds onto it, maybe edits it so the words aren't so big. An hour passes and Timber Wolf remembers his date with Light Lass. He passes on the Database Entry to Dream Girl. She adds a little bit more, before rereading it and doing major editing. Dream Girl finishes the Entry and sends it to the current Legion leader.

The Legion leader would probably edit it a bit, censoring and deleting classified information. He/She scans the data for whitewash and brown-nosing. Then he/she posts it, maybe distributes it to reporters and government officials.

quoted for truth...after all there were a lot of legionnaires in that story who we'll never know who they are...and Brainy being one of them is also a retrocon.

By the way...i use that as a way of explaining the Cosmic Boy - TIme Trapper...he's the cosmic boy from this story since everything else after it is filled with either contridictions or outright deletions in legion history up to zero hour.

Examples being Imra's being a brunette the next appearance . And the Legionnaires being children of the ones who met Superboy met to Supergirl then shifting back to the original legionnaires...what Cos-Time Trapper makes a lot of sense in this regard

And I always took those as more evidence of the Legion being particularly fond of 'Hazing' new members... Make Superboy look like a fool before inducting him and then lock him up the very next time you see him when you know that he will eventually become Superman and that imprisoning him will unravel history.... Tell Supergirl that you are the children of the group that recruited Superboy and then send her off on missions with her cousin that they both will both have to be made to forget to protect the integritty of the timeline. Ahhh... those wacky future teens! The thing is, there never was any effort made to say those things didn't happen or that something else happened instead, they just let them fade quietly away as changes slowly took place. The book evolved naturally from a throw-away idea to an ongoing and vital property in it's own right. Eventually some effort was made to maintain a basic continuity, but that is gone now. Now it is all about the story of the momment and making that work even if it totally contradicts years of continuity. The comparison to Star Trek made above is apt... for years on 'The Next Generation' Data's cat (sure, about as minor a character as you can get, but still an ongoing, reacurring character) was a male. Spot was always called He or Him by Data and any crew member that happened to refur to Him. Then suddenly they needed for Spot to be pregnant as a key element to the plot (because it wouldhave been oh so difficult to come up with another idea that didn't require Spot to have kittens). *Zap* Spot was female and bore a litter of kittens that proved to be the solution to the problem-of-the-week. That is pretty much how I see the retcons to the Legion as of late: not really needed, just easier than coming up another solution that would work with continuity instead of changing it to suit the 'idea of the week/month'.

"Ahhh... those wacky future teens! The thing is, there never was any effort made to say those things didn't happen or that something else happened instead, they just let them fade quietly away as changes slowly took place."

Oh yeah there was...when the reprints of those stories happend...the children of the legionnaires superboy met was taken out and replaced. As was Brainy being painted in the background of that last panel of a reprinted adventure comics 247. Hell Mon-El didn't have his real name in his first printing of Superboy's big brother...reprint...he did.

i hate when i repeat myself ...

nothing to see here nothing to see here

The Flintstones--that is the ultimate continuity nightmare!

That does not invalidate using a historical perspective - especially in light of so many of you trying to force a singular, definable, linear structure onto a collection of works that by their nature defy such an approach. Taking a historian's p.o.v. might be one way to escape the dilemma of how to appreciate stories in relation to what has come before, even when they are contradictory.

History isn't a story, though.

If you learn something previously unknown about history it may change the meaning of related parts of history, but that's okay.

If you learn something "previously unknown" about fictional history, it changes the meaning of related parts of history... but those parts of history are stories. They were written to have a certain effect and you're changing the meaning to be something else, and it's just about never going to be as good as the original version, because the original version was written that way and the new one is shoehorned in.

"Truth will always be stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense."

Or, at least, it *would* make sense if it was written halfway professionally...

Yes, it is. Or rather a number of stories.

Stories (fictional or non-) are constructed by authors, pieced together from imagination, with or without external evidence. One stray piece of data on its own may be historical, but is not history until interpreted and plugged into context - the act of which is creating a story.

in expecting comics writers to tie into past elements in order to create new stories, it really isn't so different as you insist. Trust me, I've done plenty of creative writing and history writing.

says who? and how do you learn something new about history? you interpret new data - into a story. Moreover, there are often numerous ways to construct histories; consider: "King Leo's incompetence let 4,000 people die" vs. "King Leo led his nation through the war with few civilian casualties, and only 1/40th of the military casualties as the enemy had."

next...
Why is it 'okay' to interpret data that suggests something completely contradictory to what we currently understand, vs. doing similarly in comics?

If the new, learned history, for instance, is that your great-grandfather was a mass murderer (hypothetically), why is that more okay than finding out New Issue contradicts Anecdotal Throwaway Story #12 of 1979?

same thing in real history, which is also written by authors to have certain effects.

and we almost always learn previously unknown things about everything.... even if it's re-reading the same work over and over, we glean new insights into it.

if you think that something is never going to be as good as the original, then why bother reading the new? I for one would suggest that Smallville has been far better than previous Superman TV shows (as one of many examples). Joe Cocker's "With A Little Help From My Friends" stands on its own merits, even though rooted in a Beatles classic - neither one harms the other, and it's neat to see one creator's reinterpretation of the other.

And yes, you're likely to say, "well, that's hardly the same" - but that's only because you choose to see it that way. And frankly, you never seem to acknowledge that there are other ways to see besides your own (at least that's how you come across).

Great Darkness, for instance, was published and is out there - whether or not it is or isn't 'in continuity.' Ditto hundreds and hundreds of other stories. They still stand on their own merits, even if a later story comes in and plays homage, or plays with the foundations. Kingdom Come was not weakened or changed by Johns' JSA - one can still read it and not have to worry about how it fits (or doesn't) with the greater DCU. Over-obsession with continuity just breeds frustration - and takes the fun out of comics, especially when a presumed singular/linear continuity is a carpet always being pulled out from under us.

I think valuing continuity over all is setting oneself up for disappointment; I suggest capturing the spirit of the mythos is a more rewarding approach - for creators and fans. A wink and a nod to past stories is fine, and can be fun - but the story and characters take precedence.

If the writing didn't rate from mediochre to 'stinking poo' then maybe more people would be enthralled by the story and fewer would even notice the things that are different. And if DC hadn't made such a big deal about how this version of the Legion was going to be the same as the original with no intention of actually delivering on that promise, then there wouldn't be any reason to complain in the first place.

well, both of those points are a matter of opinion.

you of course have your right to that opinion, but it seems to me that some fans (not necessarily you) are going out of their way to find minutia to be ticked off about.

1) History happened. It was the truth, even if you didn't know it, from the very start. In serial fiction, you knew the actual truth *and then it changed.* Did the writer have a good reason for that change? Does the 'new truth' significantly improve the characters / storyline / continuity? Was he too damn lazy to respect the writers who developed these characters, and without whom he wouldn't have the opportunity to work on them at all, and didn't even bother reading up on the characters?

2) History isn't a product that one spends money to purchase. Usually it isn't a creative exercise. If I pay money for a story, and it introduces characters that I like, and I keep paying money, to see those characters I like, and then the new writer comes in and changes those characters, he isn't just annoying anal-retentive readers #321, he's materially affecting a proven 'brand.' Brands of clothing, food, etc. get changed all the time, in most cases refined to better suit new tastes, or to introduce new features (TVs with *color!*, bread with oat flakes!, cereal with green clovers!), and a comic book property is no different, in that it is an enduring product that each consumer is encouraged to buy every month. Change that does not improve the product (which, granted, may not necessarily involve improving any individual character...) is a very different than reading a history book and discovering that the Tea Party had little to do with taxation and was about outrage over the British government was preferentially subsidizing the nearly-bankrupt East India Trading Company and allowing it to sell goods without paying tariffs, and thereby undercut their competitors. I didn't pay anyone to be entertained by the story of 'taxation without representation,' so the 'brand' or the 'product' isn't going to lose market share because it turns out to have all been about some 200 year old corporate bailout.

3) The difference between real people and characters in fiction, is that characters in fiction have to be portrayed with a consistent characterization, because we don't get to spend a lifetime making sense of their inconsistencies, they way we do with a spouse or sibling. Whether or not Kennedy banged Marilyn or Hitler was a vegetarian, that doesn't really change how I feel about those historical players. They're just factoids about real people, whom we all figured out the first time a parent told us to 'do as I say, not as I do,' are terribly contradictory things. Human beings don't have to 'make sense.' We hold fictional characters to a higher standard, and any writer worth the title should know that a character needs to have certain rules and guidelines, to help the reader 'get' the character. We expect, even demand, that James Bond be James Bond. He's not allowed to giggle, or play pranks on his co-workers, or express an interest in fantasy football, or take up tap-dancing, regardless of whether or not real spies are real people and have many diverse interests that go beyond 'squinty-eyed psychopath who always looks cool and collected, no matter how deep the kimshee is around him.'

4) Respect for the property. History isn't really a property, and 'respect' for history involves turning over stones and overturning last years theory with glee. But a fictional product was created by writers and artists, some now dead, and their contributions shouldn't be just thrown out because they are dead. Some of them *should* be thrown out. Many, if not most of them, could do with some up-dating. But the new writer who doesn't even bother to look at the past product to inform what has worked and what has not worked in the past for his target market is a fool, and not just disrespecting the fans, and his fellow writers and artists, but also demonstrating a total failure of how to sell a product. This isn't art, in the sense that you get to come in from the cold and paint whatever the hell you want, in your signature style (and, when it is, we call it an Elseworlds). This is serial production, and to not even bother to look at what has come before, and to just change things willy-nilly is a recipe for disaster. Pretty much any other company that makes a product has meetings where they argue about whether or not to change things, because change for change's sake doesn't guarantee new consumers, and can even drive away established consumers. Changes that *add* features or 'value' are welcomed, in companies that pay attention to such matters.

A change that exactly nobody was clamoring for? Not so much.

Set, clearly you have a set (no pun intended) of assumptions that reinforce where you are coming from. To me, they seem to predispose you to disliking almost anything outside of a very narrow range. If that's your tastes, so be it.

But a few points I would like to address:

1) in fiction, you do not know what "actual truth" - there is no truth because it is fiction. You only know what the storyteller told you, but even this can be a ploy of the storyteller. It is a storyteller's job to decide how much to tell - and when.

This ties into my point re: historian p.o.v. - attention to the storytelling, not mistaking the story setting for an actuality.

History is not a truth, either - it is our interpretation of the past based upon a very limited set of evidence. History is not the entirety of everything that happened - we will never know 99.99999999999999 (and so on) of what happened. Calling History and The Past the same thing aids and abets the assumptions that we know more bout the past than we do - and that there is only a single, knowable version of the past, which is definitely not the case.

I'm not sure why you chose to assume such negatives about the current storytellers, but that's your choice.

2) you seem to assume that textbook-history is the extent of History, or the only reason to read it. Even if it is not your experience, plenty of History works can be read for entertainment (depending on the reader's interests).

Also, almost any prose writing involves creativity, to some extent or another. Any historian would disagree with your suggestion that writing history takes no creativity (but frankly, I've read some things that do help further your perception!).

3) I can see the point, but I'd suggest that more famous/popular characters get frozen in behavior, rather than all of them. Some characters do change/develop over time; Green Arrow has changed significantly over the decades. Legionnaires have changed, too. Also note that even Tarzan has been a monosyllabic brute or an eloquent British lord.

4) The past is not a property, but any individual work on history is intellectual property.

The work of prior writers and artists have been published. It is out there in consciousness - no one can really throw it out. They were presumably paid for their work, and the property is owned by DC; like it or not, it is theirs to do with as they choose. The prior writers and artists did their work whether or not anyone would remember it in 1,5,10 or 50 years. Indeed, many old time creators are often surprised people do remember their work. We respect their work by rereading and appreciating it. It is impossible to pay homage to the complete set of 50 years of stories in each and every new issue; we'd just have pages and pages of lists. Every new issue is change, or else it is rehash/retelling or reprints.

You say some stories should be tossed or updated. Whose job that? The storyteller, or the fan? If it is the fan, how does DC listen to tens of thousands of fans before it moves an inch? Why is where you draw the line any better than where anyone else does?

1. Good point.
2. DC restarted the Leion that they promised us with in the Action Lightning Saga.
Dawnstar was a lesbian, Throm was a Schizophrenic/Prophet, Dreamy was part of the Dreaming, to mention a few 'changes'.
We, the fans, should have taken our cues from that and KNOWN things were going to be 'different' to quite an extent. imo
3. We, the fans, ALWAYS find reasons to complain.
Just read any thread here!

Dude. There's parts of the Threeboot I liked. I respect that Waid attempted to make characters like Lu, Salu, Gim and Nura way more interesting (and I strongly dislike other changes he made). I like Shikari better than Dawnstar (and I really don't like the repeated blowing-up / ravaging of Earth in ever more sensationalistic disasters / invasions). I love Lydda, but I *also* love Jasmin. I like Superboy's Legion, and even liked the parts that were just flat out changed (Lyle and Brainy being brothers, Umbra having darkforce powers). My tastes are hardly monolithic, and go all over the place.

If you wish to characterize me as some anal-retentive close-minded 'only one true Legion' compleatist to 'win' the discussion, then I concede it to you.

Once it gets all personal like this, where the discussion is less about the story and more about what's wrong with me that I don't like the same things you like, I think it's time to back away.

There are some interesting comments about what 'history' is or isn't in this thread. So moving away from the personal, consider here in the UK for years there was conflict in Northern Ireland. Talk to a nationalist and they will quote why history says they are in the right and unionists are wrong. Talk to a unionist and they will quote why history says they are right and the nationalists are wrong.

The same is true in the former Yugoslavia, Israel/Palestine and just about every conflict around the world. Europeans in the Americas see Columbus as a great visionary explorer. Indiginous Americans see him as the start of mass conquest and slaughter and the biggest exercise in ethnic cleansing ever undertaken.

History is spun according to the teller.

Lyle and Brainy were brothers!??
(<3 Umbra's dark force powers AND her nexus/dark realm connection!)

And Brainy was infact created (by the last Coluans) just to be a brother/companion for Lyle. Tinya was a princess, Ayla had Light based powers, etc etc. It was very different, but very entertaining too. Honestly, I rather see more of that version of the Legion than the "It's the Original, but completely different!" poo we are getting now.

That is hardly the case (at least from my point of view).

I merely suggested that those (and not necessarily you specifically) who seem particularly frustrated might be less frustrated by taking a different view on things. That's all.

Instead, I was met by a lot of resistance and deflection for merely positing that there was at least one alternate way to look at things. I don't care if you agree with me or not - I don't care if anyone does. But this subforum seems to grow a lot more negative and unwelcoming when people seem to vent frustrations more than they discuss the stories themselves.

Very true, and that was where I was going. The history, the story, is not separate from the storyteller.

If this is about Superboy's Legion, I just love that Garth was a fop.

Do the editors and writers expect us to view their work as an ongoing narrative or stand alone stories? It feels like it the answer depends on circumstance. If they are promoting cross over events, it seems pretty clear that they want us to buy the related issues in order to get the whole story of the ongoing narrative. That's the draw. When there are mistakes in continuity, however, it seems as if they want to back off that approach. The message than becomes don't be so picky.

Long story short, Kent shares my (and others') frustration with how every issue is seemingly being dissected endlessly and methodically for continuity bloopers while the stories themselves get buried in the morass.

Case in point: issue 3 ends with a very suggestive cliffhanger on that last page, and IT HAS BARELY BEEN DISCUSSED!!! Why IS that?!?!

We shouldn't have to start multiple threads for each issue to discuss the plot and character developments because a number of active posters want to tear the continuity apart in the main thread! There's a THREAD for that, isn't there? I'm not saying there should be a complete moratorium on these discussions in the main issue threads, but can't we at LEAST primarily focus on the events of the issues themselves?!?

Comics contradict themselves ALL the time! How many different versions of Superman's continuity have popped up in the last decade ALONE after John Byrne supposedly streamlined things for good in the Man of Steel?

You can use the same justification that Geoff Johns has done most recently and chalk up a lot of the changes to the aftershocks of Infinite Crisis. This is more or less the same Legion that Levitz wrote before but it's not EXACTLY the same Legion! As I have said elsewhere, it's an approximation. Yeah, it can ruffle our feathers that certain things were apparently changed with no rhyme or reason, but if it bothers you that much, just stop buying it and stick with those treasured back issues that will never disappoint you!

Trust me, I do understand continuity frustrations quite a bit. But if it frustrated me as badly as it does many of you, I would've quit buying mainstream comics decades ago! And some of the gripes are just beyond reason...I mean do we REALLY need a caption explaining that Saturn Queen is wearing a transuit?!?! Aargh!

I'm just saying that if you weathered a reboot and a threeboot and are still a Legion fan, then what's with a few inconsistencies when DC tries to finally give us something approximating what you want? Chances are, if any of us continuity nuts took over writing the Legion, we'd mess up some ourselves--or if we didn't, the stories might end up being so bogged down with exposition and correctness that they'd forget to be entertaining!

Let's accept that the Legion is neither an easy book to write nor to make entertaining in the bargain. Few comics in history can compare to it in regards to its complex continuity and its large cast. Lots of creators have gone on record to say it would be a book they's never consider tackling. You certainly have to have thick skin to put up with us fans! Hell, we obviously sometimes have trouble putting up with each other!

So bitch all you want to, Legion fans--it's what we do! But can't we spend a little more time discussing what actually happens in the issues in the threads devoted to them and less on annotating continuity gaffes panel-by-panel? Can we devote the bulk of those discussions to a separate thread?

So...what the hell's up with the Darkseid statue on Avalon, anyway?

Ugh! Reposted to avoid postbeingignoredbecauseitwaslastonpreviouspage-itis:

Long story short, Kent shares my (and others') frustration with how every issue is seemingly being dissected endlessly and methodically for continuity bloopers while the stories themselves get buried in the morass.

Case in point: issue 3 ends with a very suggestive cliffhanger on that last page, and IT HAS BARELY BEEN DISCUSSED!!! Why IS that?!?!

We shouldn't have to start multiple threads for each issue to discuss the plot and character developments because a number of active posters want to tear the continuity apart in the main thread! There's a THREAD for that, isn't there? I'm not saying there should be a complete moratorium on these discussions in the main issue threads, but can't we at LEAST primarily focus on the events of the issues themselves?!?

Comics contradict themselves ALL the time! How many different versions of Superman's continuity have popped up in the last decade ALONE after John Byrne supposedly streamlined things for good in the Man of Steel?

You can use the same justification that Geoff Johns has done most recently and chalk up a lot of the changes to the aftershocks of Infinite Crisis. This is more or less the same Legion that Levitz wrote before but it's not EXACTLY the same Legion! As I have said elsewhere, it's an approximation. Yeah, it can ruffle our feathers that certain things were apparently changed with no rhyme or reason, but if it bothers you that much, just stop buying it and stick with those treasured back issues that will never disappoint you!

Trust me, I do understand continuity frustrations quite a bit. But if it frustrated me as badly as it does many of you, I would've quit buying mainstream comics decades ago! And some of the gripes are just beyond reason...I mean do we REALLY need a caption explaining that Saturn Queen is wearing a transuit?!?! Aargh!

I'm just saying that if you weathered a reboot and a threeboot and are still a Legion fan, then what's with a few inconsistencies when DC tries to finally give us something approximating what you want? Chances are, if any of us continuity nuts took over writing the Legion, we'd mess up some ourselves--or if we didn't, the stories might end up being so bogged down with exposition and correctness that they'd forget to be entertaining!

Let's accept that the Legion is neither an easy book to write nor to make entertaining in the bargain. Few comics in history can compare to it in regards to its complex continuity and its large cast. Lots of creators have gone on record to say it would be a book they's never consider tackling. You certainly have to have thick skin to put up with us fans! Hell, we obviously sometimes have trouble putting up with each other!

So bitch all you want to, Legion fans--it's what we do! But can't we spend a little more time discussing what actually happens in the issues in the threads devoted to them and less on annotating continuity gaffes panel-by-panel? Can we devote the bulk of those discussions to a separate thread?

So...what the hell's up with the Darkseid statue on Avalon, anyway?

[snip]

Chief Taylor:

Quote

...Trust me, I do understand continuity frustrations quite a bit. But if it frustrated me as badly as it does many of you, I would've quit buying mainstream comics decades ago! And some of the gripes are just beyond reason...I mean do we REALLY need a caption explaining that Saturn Queen is wearing a transuit?!?! Aargh!...

FWIW, I figured that villains must make bootlegged copies of heroes' tech all the time, given how often they capture heroes. I mean, if you can bootleg movies and cds in the present day...



That's as much thought as I'd give to SQ being in space and able to breathe, if I'd thought about it much at all.

I get the frustration but don't see a solution. We've pretty much always discussed continuity issues with every version of the Legion. And pretty much on an issue by issue basis. In short, we've never had restrictions on viewing the series as an ongoing narrative. Suddenly with this version, there seems to be a movement against viewing the series from that perspective. Which seems ironic, to me, because one of the purposes of introducing this version was to bring back the feel that some people felt was missing from the reboot and 3boot. I didn't sit down one day and decide to read comics, the DC universe, or the Legion as an ongoing narrative. It's something I just did naturally as a kid, and have continued to do to this day. Suddenly, it feels like I'm being told that I've been reading comics and the Legion "the wrong way" for over 35 years. Really? Not buying it.

Okay, let's talk about the Darkseid reveal at the end of issue #3.
The implication seems to be that this a follow up to Great Darkness. But wait, were not allowed to ask if Great Darkness is in continuity. Wasn't Supergirl in that story? Shh. Just accept it and move on. Didn't Final Crisis change the nature of Darkseid? How is this going to work? Don't ask here. We have a separate thread for that. That approach doesn't feel very natural to me.

^It's not "wrong" to read the Legion this way, Jerry, but I don't think it's realistic to expect the transition between Before and Now to be seamless. I mean, it's been two decades since LSH Vol. 3 #63 was published. Continuity was being run thru the wringer before that point...since then, even moreso. Superboy/Kal-El was out of continuity for a looong time, and now he's back. There were different versions of Supergirl. Several different versions of the Legion. SO many factors beyond those, including what the Superman titles recently did with the Legion homeworld mythos. It just ain't gonna match up all that well.

Unfortunately, there's no other perfect solution, other than to divorce the Legion from the DCU proper and set it on its own parallel world where the tenets of the Silver Age weren't wiped out by Crisis. Even then, you'd have a hard time marrying everything else to what happened in the latter half of Volume Three. There's just no way.

Yep, it would be nice if Paul hadn't forgotten that Imra wasn't an orphan and hadn't gotten some other details wrong. But for the most part, he's doing the best he can to approximate what we lost many years ago. "Approximate" is the key word and one that I believe you approved of a while back when I coined it, IIRC.

Who knows? Given a long enough run, maybe Paul will do the best he can to tie up all those loose ends and make them work, but I doubt anything he or anyone else could do would really satisfy even half of us.

For the most part, these characters seem enough like the ones I remember and love to overlook the flaws. Hell, many of them I never even notice until I read them being pointed out on these threads!

Anyhow, I accept that this Legion isn't exactly the one I grew up with, yet I still accept it. Does that make me less of a fan somehow than those who can't get past the inconsistencies? Again, I don't damn anyone who can't get past them, but I just don't see the point of driving them into the ground.

Would it really have helped if DC had billed this Legion as "the nearest approximation to the original Legion you're ever gonna get" instead of "the return of the original Legion"? Somehow, I doubt it. But it is the truth, and that's been readily apparent since Karate Kid and Sensor Girl appeared in the Lightning Saga together, hasn't it?

I'm totally down with accepting this as an approximate Legion while questioning how the pieces fit. I don't think they are mutually exclusive exercises. Questioning specifics and expecting perfection are different things.

DC made a decision to take my money for ten plus issues of Shooter's run, not finish the story, contradict it in L3W, and try to appease me with a promise of the return of the original Legion. That set the bar pretty high for me. I'll own my bitterness. I can work through it. I'm totally giving the new series a chance and enjoying quite a bit of it. I won't, however, accept that I'm not allowed view comics as an ongoing narrative because that view doesn't quite fit with the way this series is being presented.

Besides, I don't think that is what DC or Levitz is expecting from me. In all his comments and interviews, Levitz seems totally cool with fans questioning the specifics. The resistance seems to be coming from other fans who really support the current approach. I want to see those fans support these books and be vocal as hell in their support. I don't want to see that support extend to the point of "shutting down" those who question how it all fits.

I'll tell you what would've helped. DC could have simply answered all of the major continuity questions right off the bat. Published a new "Secrets of the Legion" leading into the new seies to establish the new definitive continuity of the team, and go from there. Instead they've been stringing us along since this version first appeared with various hints about things may or may not be different than the original. It's DC's fault that we don't really know what the deal is with Supergirl now, so that we've got to try to piece it together from various bits of scattered hints they throw us, until hopefully they give us an answer in the Supergirl Annual.

The really frustrating part is that I have my doubts as to whether anyone at DC has thought these things through. It's a lot like the situation post-Crisis, when they started rebooting certain titles, but didn't really think about the consequences that, say, rebooting Wonder Woman would have for the Teen Titans or JLA, and then having to patch up those titles to conform them to the new WW story. And so they've just thrown the "original" Legion back into continuity, but it doesn't seem like anyone's bothered to figure out how the square peg is supposed to fit into the round hole. There's a kind of sloppiness to the whole enterprise which is disconcerting.

It certainly didn't help that a certain segment of Legion fandom hit us over the head with the whole "OMG! Finally the real one true Legion is back and we can scrap all those imposter Legions that they been publshing for the past twenty years 'cos they all sucked because they weren't the one true Legion and you guys better buy this book because DC has finally given us what we want by giving us Superboy back and we can ignore the horrible Giffen era and all his awful retcons and the stupid reboot and threeboot Legions!" argument when this team first appeared.

Again, not trying to "shut down" any of this. Just trying to add some perspective on things. I'm totally fine with nitpicking and even agree with it to an extent. It just seems the nitpicking dominates all the other criticisms and reactions to the point of distraction at times. I just want a balance, just as Kent and others do.

Maybe my suggestion to segregate these types of criticisms went too far, but it just goes to show how frustrating it can be, especially when I know that it's likely to get worse as the "approximateness" of this Legion (as opposed to its authenticity) becomes more and more apparent. I doubt it will get any better, and there's nothing we can do to cause it to improve. It's out of our hands.

I mean, that last page is a perfect example. It's been discussed so little and the posts referencing it buried under all the nitpicking posts, even though it's clearly an element that provides one of those connecting points or touchstones to what happened in the past to potentially see how much that element has changed or stayed the same. It's inexplicably buried under the minutiae about saturn Queen's transuit, Tyroc's powers working in space and other nitpicky details. Why is that?!?! Are my priorities misplaced?!?!

That's my objection. It's all about balance. If we're constantly seeking out the Legion equivalent of Marvel's old No-Prize and ignoring the biggest plot point in the entire issue pretty much entirely in the process, I think that's kind of a problem. Don't you?

(Btw, Jerry...though this has evolved into a back-and-forth debate between me and you, I ironically never really had you in mind at all among those in the "drive it into the ground" bunch. )

Oh, yeah. DC's been guilty of this kind of shit repeatedly the past three decades without a doubt. I guess, I'm just so used to it that I've learned to roll with the punches in order to continue enjoying characters I've grown up with. Part of me has felt many times that I should just stop shelling out my hard-earned money to DC. But I'm a glutton for punishment, and for the most part, there's been enough good stuff to keep me coming back for more.

I've been buying DC's Legion product consistently since mid-Volume 3 without any gaps, so that should illustrate my devotion, stubbornness and flexibility as a Legion fan. I can't really explain why, except to say that each permutation was good enough and felt enough like a Legion story to keep my interest. I certainly couldn't blame anyone for feeling otherwise, though.

I honestly have no clue why anyone would've ever had that attitude when the "original Legion" was brought back. Anyone, even the most naive fan, could see from the start that this wasn't quite the original version from the moment the Lightning Saga unfolded.

(btw, Edie...have you read beyond issue 1? I don't recall any posts by you referencing having read beyond that issue. )

Is that the Mark Farmer/Alan Davis 'Superboy's Legion' that you're refering to?

Oh, yes, I loved that version!
(But, apparently, I'm not remembering all of it!)

Yes, that WAS to die for!

It took me the longest time to figure out who that was!
Actually, I DIDN'T figure it out, someone told us here.
sigh

I kept thinking it was Mekt's brother!
is right!

Edit:
And somehow if it's Darkseid stealing BOTH of the boys AND turning one of them into Validus, the idea seems much more horrible than taking the one newborn and turning him into the poor monster.
For some reason this new version and departure from the old story feels horrible to me.

I should never have grown up, had kids, and worked with people with challenges and school kids.
It all just colors my reactions now.

You really can't go back, at least maybe, not all of the way.

The reboot was such a relief to me.
I guess I love fresh starts.
sigh

Chief, the frustration with the frustration is turning into some self-annhilatory mobius strip of doom, I think.

There have been multiple posts about non-continuity issues. If that level of discourse is what you want to focus on, start responding to those and spinning the conversation in that direction. Most of us will happily tag along (since I know I made some non-continuity comments myself, even *praising* Paul for so beautifully dealing with the Lanothian stuff, and introducing the compelling notion that Saturn Queen grew up among Buddhists, even if her actions suggest that she's not exactly a shining exemplar of the faith of her fathers in action...).

Less talk about stuff you don't want to see so much talk about, and more talk about stuff you *do* want to talk about, would seem to be the most productive course of action here.

How about that Avalon? Have we ever heard of this world before? It's new to me, at least.

Is it entirely run by Darkseid-worshippers, or is this just Ol-Vir's little banana republic? I would love for this to be a red herring, and for Darkseid himself to have nothing to do with this particular event, for Paul to be tantalizing us, only to reveal that he's not going right back to the most obvious thing he could do (since he's practically a legend for the Great Darkness Saga, at least among this fandom), but take a surprise turn in another direction.

I'm all for more discussion about non-continuity matters.

What I'm not all for is multiple posts suggesting that other peoples topics of interest are annoying to you and that we need to talk about something else.

Subtly manipulate us, instead. We'll fall for it every time.

The Roadrunner is the ultimate continuity nightmare.

The planet AVALON has appeared at least once before that I can recall...

"Lord Romdur's Castle", the story where Star Boy defeats Mordru, drawn by Ditko.

^ Wasn't it also that medieval world where Ontir (or someone who looked like him) and some other Darkseid followers (or something) (I am really not remembering this story well ) tried to summon him or something. I think it was in that Annual that followed up on what happened to Validus and the Ranzz twins. With Curt Swan on art. That last bit I'm sure of*.


* Unless I'm wrong.

I'm really keeping my fingers crossed that Darkseid himself is not directly involved. I'm open to Paul revisiting him directly at some point, but I'm really rooting for the red herring here.

MLLASH's post makes me wonder if this may be a Darkseid cult lead by a possibly powerless Mordru (wasn't he still powerless in V3?) whose firsthand experience with the dark lord twisted his mind. That would be interesting to me. Guess we'll know more in less than a week!

I hope you understand, Set, that I've tried pretty hard these past few posts to present a balanced, reasonable argument about my point. Yes, they have had an agenda, but I think my view has shown respect for "the other side".

Yeah, I believe Levitz used the planet several times.

For those keeping track of such things, he mentioned a while back that he had found the perfect world for this storyline that tied back to his previous run. I assume Avalon was what he was talking about.

From what I can gather, that "Lord Romdur's castle" story as Avalon's only appearance pre-Crisis until Darkseid went there to free Mordru and steal his powers. I haven't found anything complete on it, though.

Going from memory, Avalon also appeared in the 1984 Annual in which Graym was born and Garridan became Validus. In the same issue, Shady and Grev were teleported to Avalon by some of Mordru's followers in the hope of using their mystical darkness powers to release Mordru.

Theory time: Darkseid has supplanted the recently deceased Mordru as the idol of Avalon. His followers kidnapped his only surviving "creature" (Garridan, formerly Validus) in the hope of using him to summon the missing god. Graym just went along for the ride -- they couldn't tell one boy from the other from a distance.

Extended theory: Garridan/Validus kicks some Avalonian butt and earns a place in the Legion Academy.

Or something like that.

^Hmmm. It would be interesting if Garridan could transform back and forth into Validus. I'd much prefer that rather than he just be turned into Validus. I doubt Garridan could control himself in that form. So even if he's too young to go into the Academy as far as being a Legionnaire any time soon, going there would be beneficial to helping him control Validus.

(Continuity-Porn Corner: It would be nice if Paul somehow explained how Validus could have appeared in L3W in the process of telling this story.)

I've suggested before that Missing Mekt Twin = L3W Validus.

Maybe they want to make more?

Interesting theory! However, missing Mekt twin would theoretically have neither electrical powers (since he wasn't with the others on Korbal) nor telepathy, which both of the Garridan and Graym would, at least latently. Of course, MMT would theoretically have the same gene (or whatever) that made the other Ranzzes capable of getting the lightning powers, at least.

He did sorta. He said L3W wasn't necessarily in continuity except for the parts he chose to use.

Mekt's twin - maybe he/she is a Darkseid followers.

I'm not crazy about Paul being selective about which of the more recent story elements he wants to use. It may seem hypocritical to what I've been preaching here, but this approximation of the original Legion should at least be consistent with itself, if that makes any sense. An easy explanation for that Validus would be that he was brought from another time period. With the Time Trapper prominent in the story, it's plausible. (Same with Sarya and Tharok if we want to preserve as much of V3 as possible.)

That would tie some seemingly disparate plot elements together quite nicely! I hope Paul thought of it!

Unless time manipulation is involved, Darkseid couldn't be around because he was killed in Final Crisis. Levitz can omit things, but I doubt he will edit over Final Crisis.

I would prefer Validus to have a non-Ranzz origin. I have too much knowledge of child development to suspend disbelief.

Darkseid's dead now, but I don't expect that to last...do you? (Actually, I'm not completely sure he was killed. The status of the New Gods right now totally confuses me.)

Regardless, the more I think about it, the more sure I am that Levitz wants us to believe Darkseid's about to show up. I'd just about lay money that he isn't going to. Not because Darkseid's "dead" but because it just doesn't feel like it's gonna be that kind of story.

As far as Validus's origin, I think Paul's about to clarify that once and for all.

I've been on vacation (and otherwise pre-occupied), but I just wanted to chime in that I was RIGHT about the whole Titanians/Lanothians thing. The Titanian species that Saturn Girl and Saturn Queen belong to ARE descendants of human colonists who somehow learned/developed telepathy from the Lanothians! Problem solved. Let's move on. Where are the Lanothians now? Who cares? Until/unless someone has a good story to tell about them, it's part of the 1,000 years of future history sitting out there to intrigue readers (or not).

Now, having gloated about my own successful continuity hoop-jumping, I have to say when it comes to the subplot of the Lightnin'/Titan twins (hard to type, but fun to say), I HOPE Levitz is trying first and foremost to tell a good story about the characters, rather than rationalize a bunch of conflicting past stories about them. Like CT, I'm convinced that not all is as it seems with Graym and Garridan and Avalon, and I'm kind of excited to find out the truth, whatever it turns out to be.

I LIKE the idea of Mekt having a "lost twin," even if it turns out not to be true. If you are Mekt, wouldn't you invent the idea of a lost twin at some point, or become convinced you have one? And once that idea is out there, how can you not scratch that itch if you are Garth and Ayla? Not only is it a sibling, but it may be the key to making Mekt "well" again. I know some are tired of the Ranzz family, but I like it. Perpetually problematic sibling relationships are very true to life and make for good drama.

The Lanothian thing makes me wonder what Earth/U.P colonization policies are. For some reason I thought they have a Prime Directive type policy. In the 30/31st century do they colonize inhabited planets?

I imagine the Earth colony on Titan pre-dates the UP by quite a bit. The old stand-by of "subculture fleeing turmoil/persecution" would probably fit the founders of the human Titan colony pretty well.

As a child, it would've been completely understandable if Mekt had invented an imaginary twin, especially given the stigma that was associated with not having one. He's been shown to be pretty off in the head, so that delusion could certainly follow him onto adulthood and become unhealthy.

What if at some point Mekt had Tharok (or somebody) clone him to give his ethereal twin solid form? Or what if instead someone else (an enemy of Mekt's) did that in order to torment Mekt?

As far as I'm concerned, Paul put the Lanothian thing to rest with that one line. Out of everything I'd like to see Paul revisit at some point, more Lanothian info is at the very bottom.

That's always been my 'fanon' for the Titanians. In various sci-fi/fantasy media, telepathic sub-communities have rarely been welcomed with open arms by the non-telepathic majority, so it would make total sense for a group of humans developing some burgeoning telepathic awareness to take the first chance they've got to get away from the people who would happily kill to keep their secrets locked within their own skulls, and to whom the very existence of people who can read minds is pants-wettingly threatening.

Tharok being the sort of man who whips up clones of himself on occasion, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he cloned Mekt for his own purposes (say, as an infinite power source for some big death-machine he was building), and if Mekt found out about it and regards the clone as his 'long-lost twin.'

Tharok's clone-happy self might also be used to quickly 'explain' the presence of Validus in Lo3W. Validus is a massive engine of destruction, pretty much irreplaceable, and firmly under Tharok's control. Saving some cells for later to clone a replacement guarantees that no matter what happens to Validus, this 'weapon' never leaves Tharok's arsenal. The Lo3W Validus could simply have been the latest version (and, being a clone, might not be as powerful as the original, explaining why it didn't exactly dominate the combat).

If the death of Sarya is also in-continuity, her appearance could be similarly explained.

Clones! They're all clones!

Even Lightning Saga Karate Kid was a clone, created by Tharok in an attempt to use as an assassin to kill Jeckie (who he was pissed at for killing Sarya, because Tharok kinda liked her, even if she held him in contempt), but he broke his brainwashing and joined the Legion, only to find out that Tharok had set a self-destruct sequence into his genes, so that he was going to die again fairly soon anyway, and while Brainiac Five might have been able to correct that, he knew he was a clone, created as an assassin, and that his continued existence wasn't exactly thrilling the widow of the man he was cloned from, so he opted for no 'extraordinary measures' and just rode out the remainder of his existence without complaint.

Yes, there's *nothing* that can't be explained by clones!

I like that solution! It actually ties into alot of New Age stuff I have read in the past. Alot of people claim to have telepathic abilities (and alot of these people believe in aliens), it makes sense they would want to go off planet.

Normally, I don't favor cloning being used extensively in a story (especially after getting bitten HARD by the awful Clone Saga in Spider-man titles many years ago), but some of those ideas are pretty solid. I personally like my idea about Mekt's "twin" best, but it could explain those other seeming inconsistencies as well. It would certainly give Tharok more to do than he ever has in the past!

Personally, I hope the explanation for Val particularly is a little more artful if it ever gets told. For one possibility he could've been the Threeboot version who disappeared in a loose plot thread from that era. The possibility that it somehow actually was our Val is also intriguing if done right.

Cheif, you may have inadvertently stumbled on a reason for some of the emotion in behind previous discussions. In your last post you refer to the Threeboot version of Val, then refer to a presumed "our" version of Val.

So, Threeboot wasn't "our" Legion? Presumably that means that reboot wasn't either. But original was? And, approximate is?

Clones can work in some situations. I would rather see Emerald Empress explained as legacy character. Her death was done so well. It shouldn't be undone.

Yeah, that was a bit of a slip! In Val's case I DO think of the Val who died in V3, issue 4 as the only Karate Kid I ever really cared about. However, there are versions of these characters from some of the other continuities that I prefer to the original, such as Reboot Lyle and Lu and 5YL's Jo to name a few. (We had an interesting "Survivor" competition based on preferences between different versions a while back.) So I'm not automatically biased toward the original/approximation versions.

But it was more referring to how most here seem to prefer the original continuity in any case. The Reboot and Threeboot supporters are a fairly silent minority by and large. I'd say the second most vocal group of supporters are the 5YL supporters. So "our" was as much a reflection of the board's apparent bias as it was of my bias toward that version of Val Armorr.

In any case I'm very well aware of how emotionally invested our particular niche of comics fans are in what they feel is the 'correct' way to tell a Legion story. Ten years or so of posting and interacting on the 'net about the Legion has made that pretty clear for me.

I've never shared Giffen's pathological hatred of Original Recipe Karate Kid, but he was never a favorite of mine, either. I much prefer the Threeboot version when Waid was still writing. The cartoon take had a lot of potential, or would have-- if the people producing the show hadn't had all the racial sensitivity of the proverbial bull in a china shop.

[snip]
Chief Taylor:

Quote

... The Reboot and Threeboot supporters are a fairly silent minority by and large...

I can't really talk about them much because my exposure is so limited. But my feelings about the parts that I have read are generally positive. Sure, there are flaws, but what story out there doesn't have a few of those?

I have barely read any of the Reboot. I got into Legion the same year Threeboot began (I was 3 years old when the Reboot began). I read a lot of my Dad's 80's comics so I knew the Pre-Crisis stuff. However, I did like the relevence the Threeboot had.

We weren't silent when those versions were being published. There was plenty of energetic discussion on this and other boards during the DNA run (I wasn't part of Internet fandom prior to that era) and during the early 3boot as well -- and considerable furor when they were cancelled.

Maybe we're a minority on *this* board, but my impression is that the post-0 Hour Legion (a designation I prefer too "Reboot" or Earth-247) is pretty popular overall with Legion fandom, whose numbers include the creators of the current "Approximate" Legion. Geoff Johns is a big fan, and Paul Levitz was a public supporter of the pre-DNA "Archies" as well as the early 3boot. XS, Gates, supporting characters such as Aven, and the persistence of quite a number of reboot and 3boot characterizations and tropes (xenophobia, dumb Ultra Boy) are not mere accident, methinks.

There are good ideas/concepts in all the iterations of the Legion. There are also bad times in all as well. I loved the beginning of the reboot Legion (through the triangle storyline), and the DnA stuff. The middle portion of that Reboot Legion was really boring overall to me, even if there were some decent stories mingled in.

I would think that there would be conversations happening about whatever Legion is currently being published at the moment. This is a board primarily aimed at Legion readers after all.

I personally loved the 5Y:L stuff, and wisjed Geoff had not chickened out and continued on from where they left off. He's rolled convoluted continuity together before...but in the case of the Legion he just tried to ignore way too much of what happened...at least to me.

I hold original and Earth 247 Legions in equally high esteem. I guess I'd favor original, but not by all that much. I'd be just as happy to read continuing adventures of either, really.

The jury's still out on how much current LSH holds up as a continuation of the original. It's a distinct entity on its own.

Now that we know 5YL is its own reality, as well, I'd love to see it revisited. Same for Primeverse- Projectra's story, in particular, deserved to play out.

I wouldn't mind if she 'crossed over' as a villainess. Hmmm... Evil Jeckie, Progenitor, 5YL Rokk as Time Trapper- that's a pretty good Founding Three for a Legion of Reality-Crossing Villains, right there.

In the just finished Superman saga, Jeckie was missing the second Val quite a bit.
She didn't want him to stay either, in the Lightning Saga but he did anyway.

Tribulus, in dotREBELS, is Validus without the 'brain' attached and he's controlled by Vril.
I think it's still pretty open as to who Validus actually is, which is why I'm interested in this story.

Just the fact that one of the Ranzz twins wasn't taken at birth in this boot makes the whole timeline so different that it really can't be called the 'original' Legion, imo. Retroboot fits perfectly, since it is.

I much prefer the reboot, both character wise, they actually have characters, and story wise to the original and retro boots.
I mostly couldn't stand the Primeboot, with some exceptions.

About the Earth colony settling on Titan, it would have had to have permission from the Saturn population leaders, just as the Lanothians/Lar had to have permission to settle the city there.

The Earthers would have known about the previous settlement of the bottled city and chosen to live there anyway, or as Set suggested, they wanted to get away from others. I could see the Earth telepaths going a step further and chosing to go there expressly for the chance to learn from the Lanothians.

I think I need to clarify this statement a bit, as I think it's been misconstrued:

My primary meaning here is that there isn't any real vocal clamouring (at least not here on Legion World) by the supporters of either 'boot to bring either back as there has or had been by the supporters of the pre-Zero Hour versions of the Legion (meaning either the 5YL or pre-5YL versions).You just don't see threads that often centered around canning the current version and reinstating Reboot or Threeboot. During both of those runs there was plenty of threads and posts calling either for the return of 5YL or for simply picking up where Paul Levitz left off (since many fans hate 5YL). Both post-ZH 'boots certainly have their fans, but many appear resigned to them staying in limbo since they both ultimately proved unsuccessful saleswise, judging by their relative silence on these boards.

For the record I would've been content if the Reboot had continued uninterrupted and had never been discontinued in favor of Waid/Kitson's Threeboot. I feel it was built on a pretty rock-solid foundation and had grown to love it nearly as much as the version I grew up with. Ultimately, I had come to view "End of an Era" as the end of that story and was enjoying how the Reboot was giving characters like Lyle and Lu exposure and personalities like never before. And when DnA came along and revitalized it Cockrum-style, I felt this version really had legs.

Then, all of a sudden, it just ended in favor of Threeboot. There were some neat ideas there, but it all ultimately left me cold. And just when Shooter sparked some interest in that version in me, that was gone too.

I was skeptical about the return of the "originals", but I thoroughly enjoyed the arc in Action Comics. L3W disappointed on some levels, but it was still pretty satisfying. And with Paul on the new ongoing(s), I am so far pretty satisfied. It's not perfect, but it's pretty close to what I remember of the Legion from that era. I'm just enjoying it for what it is. It's a good read, it's got the characters I remember and it's the Legion.

I dunno...maybe I'm just too easy to please?

Candle, where exactly has it said that one of the twins was never taken at birth? If you're referring to them both being present, well, Graym's brother (later called Garridan in 5YL) was restored during Levitz's run in the Baxter book. If it's been stated explicitly that Garridan was never taken, where was this said or shown?

What if one of the twins becomes Validus and the other twin is the only one who can control him? Sort of a Rick Jones/Hulk type arrangement.

^That would be kinda neat, Jim! I just hope in any case that if one of them becomes Validus that he can change back to himself.

Say...what if both of them can become Validus, either simultaneously or when the other is not?

I like it... That sounds very Gemini Plus, the twin lads from HERO ALLIANCE who could be semisuper, but only one of them at a time.

Pretty cool IF you always remain on good terms with your twin.

For the record. much of my assessment it similar to yours:

Original series (Adventure, Action, Superboy, v.1, v.2, v.3) - The classic Legion. The foundation and inspiration for all that came after. The Legion that made me a fan. Great stories, great characters, an ongoing narrative that gave us the growth of a team from a throw away concept, to a teenage super hero club, to a sleek super hero team. It evolved into one of the premier science fiction series in the history of comics. I loved the way Levitz let the characters grow and develop.

Five Years Later - A bold beautiful experiment, comics as art, my favorite Legion era until Giffen left. I felt no sadness when the series ended. It was a grand story that had been told well. Good stories are allowed to end. Longevity is not the measure of success, for me.

Reboot - A mixed bag. A solid foundation was built. Sometimes a bit too juvenile for my tastes, some really bad ideas like Sneckie and Andromeda the space nun. Loved DnA, genius work. Ultimately, there was still a lot of potential with this team. The plug was pulled too soon. There were a lot more stories left to tell.

Threeboot - Despite initial reservations because I didn't think a new reboot was needed, I warmed to the concept. I liked the characterization and ideas for the most part. Loved Kitson's designs. The pacing was horribly slow, though. Nura's death and the lack of explanation for Supergirl's appearance were frustrating. I was really enjoying Shooter's run and was insulted by the way the series came to an end. Again, the plug was pulled too soon. This series and these characters still had a lot of potential.

Current Version - I'm trying to like it, but just don't see the point of moving the concept backwards. Awkward attempts to unnecessarily reclaim something that really can't be reclaimed. I like the idea of having new adventures with a younger team, which we could have had with the reboot or threeboot teams. Calling 30 somethings boys and girls without explanation isn't working for me. Clumsy and mishandled introduction. Bottom line: I don't think going backwards is ever going to be a successful formula for moving forward.

Unlike Kent, I prefer to read comics as ongoing narratives. Comic books don't need to move in real time, but they do need to move. As such, reboots every 20 years or so are needed to refresh the palette. Many fans feel that the reboots destroyed the Legion. I see them as having kept it alive. I know many fans support the current approach. So, I'm along for the ride and hoping that my instincts are wrong. I haven't been convinced yet.

For my part, I want good character-driven stories that treat the essence of the characters with respect, and I don't give a fig which 'boot they're from. The challenge to doing this is that the Legion has a LOT of history (events) and often not so much actual characterization (which is subtle and developed over a LONG time). So it's easy to get hung up on history (this contradicts Adventure #314!) AND easy to disagree on what is essential about an individual character (is Jo a dumb jock or clever schemer?) As I wrote earlier, I worry that Paul's story here is more about fixing a piece of backstory he's attached to, rather than telling a good story about the characters. Although I have to say I've loved his presentation of Saturn Girl and of Lightning Lad & Lass so far.

Egad. I need Cliff's Notes for some of you guys.

New origin for Tharok? After all, robotic body parts *do* run in the family...

Doublechinner, you make a good point about the essence of the characters. That's where some of the disconnect comes in, though. For me, a characters essence (personality) is directly tied to the experiences of that character. It was the character's reactions to certain events that initially helped define that essence.

Paul plans to explore the death of Lightning Lad in Adventure. Saturn Girl's reaction to his death helped define her as a character. History and events are important.

Dan Didio said a few years back, that he thought there was one true version of most of DC's characters, and he wanted to restore that version. Okay, fine. However, in the process, history and events have been treated fairly recklessly. So, the question becomes whether he and Johns have truly been successful in restoring those "true versions". My answer is no, they haven't. Going back to the post I made a few pages ago, they have been selective about when history and events are important, and in all honesty, have been dismissive with fans when their views on what events are important have differed.

So, I think Paul is correct to revisit Great Darkness and to fix or clarify the backstory. The story is a major event in the history of the team and the individual characters. It's difficult to treat the essence of the characters with respect without treating their history with respect.

I think that there have been quite a few comments requesting that DC follow up on the New Wanderers concept for the reboot.

That hope takes the place of demanding them back, I think.

I like the retroboot and have no problems with it's continuing.
I'm not even hung up on the continuity stuff.
I just know it's not the 'original' and accept the fact.

Actually, I was married with little children (70s) and didn't get the Legion then.
And my collection that I rebuilt was stolen years ago.
I had no idea that the baby that was taken by Darkseid was ever returned!

Wait a minute, I just remembered in the TMK era that he was quarentined(sp) with Ivy and that he had the Validus virus.

That's still completely different from having two boys running around together, imo.
But, thanks for bringing up the point since it made me remember.

I agree.
I suppose that I feel that Levitz isn't trying to build on the essense of the characters.
He's said that he just likes messing up thier lives.
That's okay with me if he sticks to that building process rather than just forcing them out of character to do whatever he wants.

I think that's possibly what he might be doing with Tasmia IF he forces her to LOVE Kirt.
I know that she wouldn't do that, EVEN if her emotions wanted to, and I can't see her even having those emotions.

Plus for me, Umbra is the true essense of Tasmia, the Shadow Champion.
I felt the reboot captured a number of the Legionnaires true essenses and potential, including Brainy, Jecka, Vi and Nura.

I think that the Primeboot got Rokk and Lyle absolutely right.
sigh

Really? Primeboot Lyle over reboot? Not me. Agree about Tasmia and possibly DNA Nura. Don't see if for Vi, at all. Or Jeka, really. I like her as a unique character in her own right. New Wanderer/Earth 247 Brainy, at least, seemed like Querl Dox; unlike subsequent characters bearing the name.

Primeboot Rokk was all temper. I think NW Rokk the one who we actually saw earning the awe Legionnaires bestowed on him since the 1970's.

I think Primeboot Ayla was probably her at her best. Possibly Tinya, though her power-switch turned out to be too difficult to really depict adequately.

Knowing that the New Wanderers (and Primebooters, too) are 'out there' and not just vanished in whitespace... hmmm... well, that there's been little noises made here and there about the *possibility* of eventual stories about them makes big appeals on their behalf much less immediate. Even before we met them as 'New Wanderers', there was that glance in Infinite Crisis of the reboot LSH, now slotted to dwell on 'Earth 247'.

Unlike Zero Hour, when the 5YL and SW6 Legions were just gone. No appeal, no possibility, no tomorrow. That's a much harsher end and one that nags at a fan much more than the absence of a hero or team in 'limbo'.

I do like that the Reboot and Threeboot characters weren't "whited-out" as Mystery Lad says. Both are just loaded with potential. However, I'm extremely skeptical that either will have stories written about them again.

The only glimmer of hope for Reboot is the continued presence of Gates and XS. With those two still around, the possibility of a Reboot re-connect is always there. I half expect, though, that their past with a Legion of another reality to be completely swept under the rug at some point.

The best hopes for Threeboot are dot-REBELS because it was actually Threeboot Brainy who helped kick off the series and future appearances of the otherwise repugnant Superboy-Prime from the same world (hopefully, Threeboot wouldn't reappear just to be slaughtered).

Another hope would be the untold story of the original Legion of Three Worlds adventure. In fact Adventure Comics would be an excellent place to tell that story should Paul be so inclined.

The most depressing thing about the Retroboot, though, is Lyle being dead because I miss so much how he was written in the reboot. I also miss how Lu was portrayed there as well. Never has either character felt so vital to the Legion and so vibrant as they were in that version.

But, hey, both of the other 'boots are still out there somewhere, so hope remains.

I also hope this current Levitz storyline does preserve the Ranzz family connection to Validus. I suspect it will, or Paul wouldn't go there. I just think the revelation brings even deeper pathos to Garth's run of bad luck. I'd just rather it be done without either of the twins being lost to the family again. I would be happy with one of the scenarios we discussed above or even with the story putting Garridan's history Validus firmly in the past with no further recurrences.

But is any new reader (or newish reader) gonna know that Lightning Lad is the hard-luck Legionnaire? He wasn't in the 3Boot. He kinda was in the 2Boot, although I would argue he was the most heroic, and one of the characters who grew the most. Johns' portrayal of the current Lightning Lad is the intuitive, emotional hero, in contrast to Cosmic Boy and Saturn Girl. And of course, some or all can be valid and consistent portrayals of Lightning Lad. Or they might not be. I'm really looking to Paul to show me what he thinks is essential about Garth's character.

I hated the Primeboot Ayla and I'd be happy to NEVER see her again!
I can't decide if I prefer the reboot or the TMK Ayla, I'm afraid.

I liked the reboot Lyle but not as much as the kid Lyle we saw in Prime.

And to me, the pre Sensor Girl Jeckie is a non-person, much dispised by me.
That's why I liked the snake and then loved the Naga.
I could care less about the sexy part, the major reason that I think most of the guys prefer the original.
ugh

I also hate the Vril Querl of the Primeboot and nutso Brainiac of the original/retroboot. One's a rip off and the other's a cliche.

Phase is the best Tinya, imo and I liked her best in the reboot.

And the DnA Nura is the ONLY Nura, I think.
I can't abide the narcasistic creature of the original boot.
The only interest I have in this Nura is her possible connection to the Dreaming and I doubt that is going anywhere soon.

Of course, this all just my opinion.

Edit:
Oh, and I can't stand the original Rokk, either.
And I think of the DnA Garth as the one, true, Garth. I actually cried at his death while mourning the lost Jan, too.
sigh

I can't honestly say I hate any version of any of the Legionnaires.

Other than Prime Querl who was a copy of Vril, the girls bother me the most.
Probably because I AM a girl and I just hate it when they become cliches or weak or boring.

Like, Vi was sweet and learned to be powerful and independent in the reboot and smart and tough during TMK but either hard and servile(strange mix) in Prime or cringing and weak and a pitiful victim in Prime and the original boots.

Anyway, maybe my language was too strong.
I didn't mean to be offensive, just forceful.
I don't know why, exactly.

I loved Threeboot 'Atom Girl.' She had a strange relationship with Brainy, whom her people regarded almost as a god (for rescuing them from servitude to the other Coluans, apparently), and yet she treated with casual familiarity, and even, in a few cases, mild contempt, which I thought was a very unusual stance.

It very much made me feel that she, like the other Imskians, was all hero-worshippy of Brainy, until she actually got to work with him for a length of time, and then her dreams died *hard,* and now she finds herself not thrilled to relate with other Imskians, who are like squeeing Brainy fans, and she doesn't want to tell them that he's just a person, and not even a terribly nice one, at that. So she ends up either politely nodding as they enthuse about how *awesome* it must be that she gets to work with the amazing Brainiac, wishing that her fellow Imskians would shut the hell up, or, she's already blown up and told them off, and now they think that she's just crazy, not to love the great savior of Imsk, and maybe she doesn't appreciate or deserve the honor of working with him...

Threeboot Salu seems to risk being in the position of the domestic who writes the tell-all book about some celebrity, only to have the fans of that celebrity freak out and start sending them death-threats for being a big ingrate and trash-talking their employer or whatnot. (Although it's not clear from the Threeboot if Salu ever did 'write the tell-all' or is just humoring her fellow Imskians, who are all still caught up in Brainy-fever.)

It was a funky dynamic, as you say, a bizarre mix of 'hard' and 'servile' (although I think servile is a strong term, since she flat out called him crazy and opposed him on the 'trap Dreamy's soul and raise her from the dead' scheme) since she seems to be consistently 'on Brainy's side,' and yet shows notable disrespect for him.

I agree. Jeckie was always my absolute LEAST favourite of all the Legion; she had the same problem that Marvel's Scarlet Witch endured for decades where as much as her power was quite awesome, she was an utterly useless stereotypically hysterical female a lot of the time.

I think it's amazing the difference that overcame that character when she was reinvented as Sensor Girl. She quickly went from being my most hated to one of my favourite characters. I guess it goes to show that there's no such thing as a bad character, just uninspired writing?

I also agree about the part you said regarding pre- Sensor Girl Jeckie. She was a bit of a damsel in distress, not always mind you but sometimes.
The only difference between her and reboot Jeka, in my eyes, was that the latter was a snake, so that made for some interesting character development. Aside from that she was pretty bland, well except for when she "lost it" after being altered to appear more human near the end of the reboot's run.

I prefer the current version of Jeckie but she needs to lose the mask and the codename ... doing that shouldn't change her Sensor-esque effectiveness. I rather liked "Princess Projectra" or "Queen" now, whatever.

[snip]

Interesting!

I think I lean more towards another kind of dynamic, though. Maybe a big sister-like role. She wants to protect him from people who don't understand or appreciate him enough. But it's precisely her own admiration of/fear of what he can do that compels her to try and keep taking him down a peg, for his own good (and for the good of the team).