According to February Top 300 the Legion's sales continue to fall even with all of the buzz about Keith Giffen and the death of Sun Boy. Sales dipped to 16,242 in February, down from 16,496 in January and 16,912 in December. At this rate the Legion is in a free fall. I'm worried that the title will be axed the next round of cancellations!

On the one hand, a 1.5% fall is hardly "freefall", it's just standard attrition. But yes, on the other, you should be worried, since whatever the change from the previous issue, 16k is indeed deep in cancellation territory.

Here are the "New 52" titles below LSH. Red means cancelled:

128. - LEGION OF SUPER HEROES #17 ($2.99) - 16,242
145. - RAVAGERS #9 ($2.99) - 14,223
148. - STORMWATCH #17 ($2.99) - 13,657
149. - DEMON KNIGHTS #17 ($2.99) - 13,571
151. - DIAL H #9 ($2.99) - 13,541
155. - TEAM 7 #5 ($2.99) - 13,005
161. - DEATHSTROKE #17 ($2.99) - 12,626
162. - BATWING #17 ($2.99) - 12,595
167. - SAVAGE HAWKMAN #17 ($2.99) - 12,376
169. - SWORD OF SORCERY #5 ($3.99) - 12,334
171. - DC UNIVERSE PRESENTS #17 ($2.99) - 11,985
172. - I VAMPIRE #17 ($2.99) - 11,833
178. - FURY OF FIRESTORM THE NUCLEAR MAN #17 ($2.99) - 11,100

So, LSH is the fifth lowest-selling New 52 title not yet cancelled. The last wave of cancellations announced, back in February, was six titles (I, Vampire & DCU Presents were axed a month earlier).

It doesn't look good. Not good at all. I hate to say this, but I'm going to start preparing myself mentally for cancellation. I just can't see this getting any better. On the plus side, I guess they've got issues prepared until June? But if all the hooplah with Giffen and Sun Boy dying didn't at least get people to buy it out of curiosity...

*sniffle*

Four of my six DC books are on that list!

Given the rumors about a "new direction" planned, I'd say were safe through the next round of cancellations.

However, since said "new direction" sounds like it will totally suck, I think we can pretty much count on cancellation not long after that.

Crap! We can't be outsold by Vibe! That's just unacceptable!

Something else else just hit me. 16k is lower than the pre-DnA nadir of the postboot and probably (considering the 2003 change to Diamond's reporting methodology, going from preorders to what actually shipped. And ignore that odd Legionnaires #80 number that's far lower than #79 or #81, something went wrong there. It was right between the two) the lowest-selling Legion figure ever.

That's because these are, in my honest opinion, the worst Legion stories I've ever read. This new storyline with the Fatal Five looks promising, but before it? Yeah. This has been some seriously crappy storytelling. There is absolutely no chance to pick up new readers when the current plots have been so utterly inane.

I guess what worries me most is that Giffen was expected to give Legion an uptick in sales. Still, I read a lot of posts on other blogs that a number of readers decided not to even give the Legion a try since Giffen only penciled 2 issues before leaving. So, if Keith Giffen can't create enough buzz to even keep current readers around, what will it take to turn the title around? I think Levitz has got a good storyline going, but if no one reads it...

I am thinking that it did give a bump in sales, since I bought one, so the loss would probably have been EVEN more without the Giff and the sensationalism of the issue.

I think this thread is really funny, I have a dark sense of humor. he he.

The current LSH does seem joyless, its not even failing because it is doing something new or odd.


but tis the NEW 52. Its NEW. NEW sells.

Its still new.

I flipped through Katana at the store, it sure was pretty, but I think I read it all in a matter of seconds.

Also, she sleeps with her sword "you are the only one that will ever share my bed"
he he


Also, the JL whatever with Katana and Vibe is based on tit for tat characters to take out members of the JL.

LSH will most assuredly be cancelled shortly after the sure-to-be-space-gawdawful JLAization (that I personally will not be around for), if not sooner.

We will then be without a LSH title for possibly quite awhile until a Geoff Johns-tier writer or Jim Lee-tier artist decide they want to work on the book.

Or until the undoing of the New 52verse via the next big EVENT...

I wonder if this book has already been cancelled and that's part of the reason Giffen quit - they pulled the rug out from underneath him?

Those are not good sales figures at all and things do not look promising for the future. But those are just paper copies sold though aren't they or does that figure include digital sales as well? You only need 1500 or so digital sales and it would be up around the, comparatively healthy, 18000 mark.

However if/when the book is cancelled perhaps a sensible idea would to try it out as one of their continuity free digital first series. On the whole they have been extremely solid and the shorter stories seems to enable them to attract a level of talent that probably cannot or will not do a monthly book. For example, the Orson Scott Card furore aside, there are some very good or interesting names attached to the Superman book and talent like Amanda Conner, Ted Naifeh and Fiona Staples have already done issues of other series so the willingness is there.

A weekly Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes telling shorter fun stories with a rotating cast of creators could be just what is needed, almost as a palette cleanser, to rebuild faith and a readership before the inevitable Volume 8.

I actually prefer no LSH book sometimes. Just let it rest until someone really wants to do it and has some enthusiasm for creating the book.

If the Legion does get cancelled, then I'm done collecting new comics. The Legion is the only title on my pull list. I'm not wasting money on anything else. I'll just spend my time collecting back issues and enjoy a completed collection. The only reason I'm on board right now is because this is Levitz writing the "original" Legion again.

I think that is actually what turns me off of it, it is a bland sort of weird take on the original ... a mockery of its memory! :devil:

I'd rather have a new or different take than ... some pale shadow of the "original".

It seems more focused on marketing than story. Its just packaging.

I prefer my heroes dead than written by DC right now.

<--- salty.

It's assuredly losing money for DC on a monthly basis. I fear cancellation is imminent. Of course, the last year has been one of the worst ever in Legion history so I'm not surprised.

It's time for a new voice. Sorry Paul, sorry Keith. It's time for someone whose never done the Legion before.

I think (just speculation) it's part of Paul's deal for voluntarily leaving the publisher position, that he gets work for DC regardless. That's not to say they won't cancel Legion and move him to a different book, but I'm sure the economics of this one are a bit different.

Given the critical and financial failure of the "Legion", I don't see how there can be any doubt that Levitz's continued presence on this title is down to a 'deal' he made after being ousted as president of DC, to go quietly and happily and not badmouth the company. Far too many similarly underperforming books - and even superiorly performing books - have been canceled or had complete creative overhauls to generate buzz.

With that said, I suspect this book is going to get a lot of leeway. I also suspect that means that Levitz isn't leaving until he wants to leave, or until the book is in such a gutter that it has to be canceled.

At this point, rather than seeing it languish in mediocrity, I'd rather it be canceled on the off chance that a newly relaunched book wouldn't demand Levitz's presence.

It's such a shame, as the first issue with Giffen - 17 - was everything I want out of a Legion book. It was a perfect issue, in every way, and I'm completely gutted that we're losing that magic.

Ditto. I'll just start the laborious, yet satisfying, process of trying to get a complete collection. By the time I finish the Legion will probably be started back up!

And I'm with Cobie on the book needing a new voice. Perhaps not necessarily someone that's never done it before, but at least someone excited to do so. The last two years of Legion have felt like they were on autopilot, with someone disinterested writing the stories. Time for a breath of fresh air.

If we are looking for new blood apparently Adam Beecham? who writes the Batman Beyond books is a Legion fan so perhaps he would be willing to give it a go.

Then all we need is a penciller which shouldn't be too hard as, by and large, the Legion has been lucky with artists, especially new ones.

Not a huge fan of Beechen, I'm afraid. I think there are a lot of guys who have proven themselves a bit better.

In fact, a lot of writers have said they're Legion fans; most of the biggest guys today have expressed some love for that franchise at some point or another. Matt Kindt said it was his dream job at DC. Hickman loves it, Aaron loves it.

There are plenty of guys who are available in terms of love. THe real deal is skill.

Thing is though we are not going to get Hickman, Aaron or Kindt (even though that mat be more possible than the other two) no matter how much they may want to write the book or how well suited they may be.

To pay the money necessary to get them to leave Marvel they would be going to JLA, Batbooks or Superbooks which probably pay for most of the rest of what DC publish which is just how it should be no matter how much we may wall want it to be different.

So we have to be realistic about the Legions position in the grand scheme of things, which is not great at present it would appear, and set our sights a bit lower to the Beechens, Kruls and The Unwrittens Tom Taylor (who I have been mighty impressed with on Injustice so far). Potentially we may be able to get Palmiotti and Grey who are very good writers but I cannot think of them doing sci-fi before so may not be a good fit.

If I had my choice of, potentially, obtainable writers I would go for J M Dematties who is, IMO, a solid writer and I thought the issues of he cartoon he wrote were some of the better episodes which suggests he has a feel for the characters.

Failing that I would love for J Torres to be given a shot at the proper team after his sterling efforts with the animated book.

This. This all over the place. I give Torres a lot of credit for his work on that book. He managed to write very entertaining self-contained stories that I enjoyed a lot. I'd be very curious to see how he could manage the normal book and an opportunity to write longer-term storylines. Definitely a good idea!

While we certainly aren't ever going to get Hickman and Aaron (as I've alluded to in multiple threads), I used them only to illustrate that there are a lot of fans of the Legion -- that being a fan of the Legion is no great qualification.

Matt Kindt is easily within the range, by the way. You're vastly underrating what the Legion might bring -- the Kruls? Really? You're purposely picking the worst quality people here to make it seem more dire than it is.

The Fialkovs, Venditti's, etc would all be lucky to get the Legion, career wise.

Ok Krul was a joke but I was serious about the rest and agree that the book would be step up, career wise, for those you mention but the question is would they take it if it was offered?

The Legion probably isn't seen as the easiest book to write with its massive cast, limited opportunities for crossovers and somewhat difficult to please fans. Even if you were willing to put up with all that the best you can probably hope for, sales wise, is a doubling of its current audience to the 30,000 mark and that sort of figure is probably far more attainable for a writer of that level with a book slap in the middle of the main DCU were you can rely on the tie-ins, crossovers and whathaveyous nowadays.

Levitz trashed all of the momentum built by Geoff Johns. I think this is the main reason that its lost steam. Remember how not so long ago everyone was wetting themselves just because the original Legion was back? George Perez drawing them! Crossing over in sexy new costumes by Gary Frank!

Most DC titles were rebooted entirely with the New 52, and though I'm happy the Legion was comparatively untouched, its DCnU iteration lacked the freshness of these other books, the best of which got quickly to the heart of what fans love about those characters. Instead splitting the cast took some of its most popular members and replaced them with untested Academy kids. After this long, you don't put the founders in retirement again--they need to be front and center for a while longer to reestablish the franchise.

Maybe Levitz' layered approach isn't workable in today's shorter books.

That totally happened to me on the first round of New DC 52 cancellations a year ago. My pull bin ain't what it used to be...

It's disappointing the sales numbers are so low for the Legion. I do think that with Mr. Levitz on board the Legion title may get a little more slack on the cancellation chop block than other titles.

I see one of two solutions to try on the Legion title:
1) Go computer graphics on the art - make it look like a video game. The Legion would lend itself to a high-tech look with its future setting, and maybe appeal to the youngsters who are big into video gaming more.
2) Go Tiny Titans and target the youngest age market. The colorful costumes and different species characters could build a new foundation for the Legion, removing the criticism of the Legion being too hard and complex to follow by dialing back the characters. I picture 3 issues a year alone based just on applicant tryouts.

Kindt, I'm pretty sure, would.



Absolutely. I've expounded upon this myself in another thread here, and I couldn't agree more.

But that's a question of ambition, and intelligence, and ability, and confidence.

As my boy Henry V once said (via Shakespeare, anyway)

Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.

Or, in other words; if you're afraid of the challenge, go home, I don't want you ANYWAY.

The Legion is a coveted brand. Kurt Busiek wanted it, but brought it up too late and Levitz was already on. Kindt has made it clear that he wants it, would love the opportunity. Hickman, if he were at DC instead of Marvel, would undoubtedly have campaigned for it. Aaron, too. I think a number of up and coming guys think they could do it, would be enthused to try. I'm no published writer (well, in scientific journals) and I'd love to give it a shot, and believe strongly I could do it. And I have to believe others have the same confidence. I'm not THAT arrogant.



Maybe. But the opportunity to get a steady paycheck, strong buzz, and the relative creative freedom that comes from working on a Legion title (sans Paul Levitz, presumably) would m ake it worth it.

I know I'm harping on Levitz here, but I really, strongly believe it is him that is doing the limiting, because Joey Calaveiri is the editor, and that man is a great editor who gives a lot of leeway to his writers (like Simonson's Orion, or Johns' Flash).

Get Levitz out of there, and let someone take on that book.

I'll just leave this here...

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/03...dc-new-52-from-october-thats-the-rumour/

Remember that "Justice Legion" rumour, anyvon?

Looks like i'll be collecting back issues as of September. XD

Horrid. I hope they do it, and it leads to another DC Implosion.

Well, if this is it. I hope Levitz's current saga ends the Legion on a high note because I won't be collecting any new comics after Legion is gone. Sorry DC, I'm done.

If they do it, I hope that's the end of DC as we know it and this current era. That somehow the characters persevere...but are at least taken to the brink so people don't forget how idiotic this last decade has been and what it can lead to.

Yeah, once Legion is done, I'm done with DC.

I would have to agree.

March 2013 sales fgures continue to fall http://www.icv2.com/articles/markets/25462.html

It seems this new Fatal Five storyline is not gaining traction. It will be interesting to see how the next couple of issues fare. Bigger surprise is that Keith Giffen's Threshold is doing so poorly.

132--has it ever been so low?

Sales aren't "sliding." They're being assassinated!

How could any writer of Levitz' experience think that showing a headless Legionnaire would build readership? That was one of the all time ludicrous images.

I really do not think it's that hard to write Legion stories that would interest long term fans, grab them and keep them. There's a long history of what the fanbase has enjoyed. They have just chosen not to do it.

Someone decided to kill this and they're killing it. It's the only conclusion I can come to because Levitz is not THIS bad of a writer.

We're in free fall. Closing my eyes.... Afraid to look...

It's time to let it rest. Until this gang of animals is out of power.

Like I said, the book isn't in freefall (16,148 is just 0.6% down on the previous month's 16,242.) On a strict percentage basis, it's actually very stable.

The problem isn't the current rate of decline, it's the cumulative declines that have gone before. Think of it not as a plane rapidly crashing to Earth, but a disabled submarine nearing the point, ever-so-slowly sinking downward, where the pressure will crush it.

So we're sinking fast on a slow boat to China? This is not good at all.

Also to put the low CBS orders here in perspective, it's not just the Legion title that is hurting but the entire DC mid-tier titles order numbers are in free fall. Many are chalking that up to extreme editorial meddling - in particular from Bob Harris.

I'm starting to think the same. I think this is deliberate. Perhaps to make a JLA of the future, perhaps to simply be done with it. But this feels less like a story and more like a culling.

Well, let's turn the perspective into context. Here's all the DCnU titles I can see from March on the chart:

March 2013 DCnU titles:

100k+
3. BATMAN #18 ($3.99) - 137,893
6. JUSTICE LEAGUE #18 ($3.99) - 102,494

90k+
9. JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #2 ($3.99) - 91,734

80k+
(none)

70k+
18. DETECTIVE COMICS #18 ($3.99) - 76,237

60k+
19. GREEN LANTERN #18 ($2.99) - 69,801
20. BATMAN AND ROBIN #18 ($2.99) - 69,614
23. BATMAN INCORPORATED #9 ($2.99) - 64,067
24. ACTION COMICS #18 ($4.99) - 61,879

50k+
27. BATMAN THE DARK KNIGHT #18 ($2.99) - 54,269
28. AQUAMAN #18 ($2.99) - 53,337
30. BATGIRL #18 ($2.99) - 51,677

40k+
34. SUPERMAN #17 (LATE, $2.99) - 49,666
37. SUPERMAN #18 ($2.99) - 48,236
38. NIGHTWING #18 ($2.99) - 48,223
42. EARTH 2 #10 ($2.99) - 46,213
46. GREEN LANTERN CORPS #18 ($2.99) - 44,215
50. TEEN TITANS #18 ($2.99) - 42,055
51. GREEN LANTERN NEW GUARDIANS #18 ($2.99) - 42,028
54. FLASH #18 ($2.99) - 41,659

30k+
60. WONDER WOMAN #18 ($2.99) - 38,406
61. RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #18 ($2.99) - 37,731
62. CONSTANTINE #1 ($2.99) - 37,564
68. RED LANTERNS #18 ($2.99) - 35,203
69. BATMAN INCORPORATED #8 (REPRINT, $2.99) - 34,679
73. CATWOMAN #18 ($2.99) - 33,220
76. BATWOMAN #18 ($2.99) - 31,381
77. SWAMP THING #18 ($2.99) - 30,716

20k+
81. ANIMAL MAN #18 ($2.99) - 28,711
82. WORLDS FINEST #10 ($2.99) - 28,469
86. GREEN ARROW #18 ($2.99) - 28,080
87. SUPERGIRL #18 ($2.99) - 28,051
90. JUSTICE LEAGUE DARK #18 ($2.99) - 25,664
93. TALON #6 ($2.99) - 25,440
94. SUICIDE SQUAD #18 ($2.99) - 25,232
95. SUPERBOY #18 ($2.99) - 24,455
103. BIRDS OF PREY #18 ($2.99) - 21,957

10k+
113. LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT #6 ($3.99) - 19,681
114. KATANA #2 ($2.99) - 19,247
115. JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #1 (REPRINT, $3.99) - 19,225
116. JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICAS VIBE #2 ($2.99) - 19,092
123. PHANTOM STRANGER #6 ($2.99) - 17,375
126. ALL STAR WESTERN #18 ($3.99) - 16,897
132. LEGION OF SUPER HEROES #18 ($2.99) - 16,148
141. THRESHOLD #3 ($3.99) - 15,109
148. RAVAGERS #10 ($2.99) - 13,466
151. STORMWATCH #18 ($2.99) - 13,255
157. DIAL H #10 ($2.99) - 13,084
160. DEMON KNIGHTS #18 ($2.99) - 12,975
166. DEATHSTROKE #18 ($2.99) - 12,306
168. BATWING #18 ($2.99) - 12,084
170. SAVAGE HAWKMAN #18 ($2.99) - 12,021
172. TEAM 7 #6 ($2.99) - 11,805
173. SWORD OF SORCERY #6 ($3.99) - 11,776
176. DC UNIVERSE PRESENTS #18 ($2.99) - 11,679
178. I VAMPIRE #18 ($2.99) - 11,568
188. FURY OF FIRESTORM THE NUCLEAR MAN #18 ($2.99) - 10,679

<10k
237. HUMAN BOMB #4 of 4 ($2.99) - 6,379

I don't know if I'm more depressed at the low sales, the fact that I don't find it all that surprising, or the fact that I'm not quite as upset as I should be.

The slow submarine analogy was apt.

Is there anything we can still do at this point?

I think it's time to let it go gracefully. The justice league is probably on its way and the book is terrible. I'm ready for cancellation.

Viva la Backissues!

Now if each Legion fan would buy twenty issues apiece each month...

I haven't bought any comics since just after the New 52 was introduced so I can't really speak to any quality issues, but - lopping off the titles slated for cancellation - the one thing that absolutely leaps out at me while looking at the above list is just the sheer lack of diversity in the remaining titles.

They are putting so many eggs in the extended Superman, Batman, and JLA baskets that there is barely room for anything else.

I guess what sells, sells, but - sheesh - that is the least amount of selection DC has had in years.

Here's the Legion sales numbers for #19. The downward trend continues, but not as sharply. Have all the marginal fans jumped ship and only the hard core fans remain?

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/25659.html

While sales are down overall, this was the first month that Legion actually sold out at the comic shop I go to before I could pick up my copy. It was weird for them to actually reorder an issue of LSH these days.

Possibly a useful chart. Line shows change, relative to dotted line (no change).

Smallville with a Legion storyline also was unavailable at my shop and that just never happens I was told.

Just to give an impression of LSH sales these past two volumes:


Blue columns/left y-axis = Plain sales numbers
Red line/right y-axis = Relative to Batman sales
Yellow line/right y-axis = Relative to DCU average sales (NB: Based on Marc-Oliver Frisch's averages at The Beat, anti-returnability discount correction not applied since the discount was included)

Wow. v7 #1 sure didn't excite people much.

Pretty soon every issue will be numbered 1!

Including an all new character and/or team ... that dies horribly.

The Bat Super Bat League of Bat ... will be the title of the 52 comics.

I think the yellow line there is *really* telling - LSH went up because, with the DCnU relaunch, EVERYTHING went up, but the trend relative to DCU average sales continued.

Exactly. In fact, there's even a noticeable dip for that issue relative to the DCU average!

And, with things wrapped up, here's the graph.

[Trigger warning.]

I think what we should take away from this is that the NU52 killed the Legion. XD! I mean, volume 6 didn't do GREAT, but it still did better than the vast majority of volume 7.

Note that the green line doesn't intersect with the blue one until around (what would have been) v6 #60, or v7 #43; and that the sales level of v7 #23 (v6 #40) would have been reached by v6 #32 [i.e., v7 #15]

[The R² value, BTW, is a measure of how precisely the trendline matches the data - an R² of 1 is a perfect match, and lower is less good.]

Legion sales are really gonna drop from now on!!!

hardy har har.

However, this measures absolute sales. It's clear that the NewDCU had raised the sales of Legion for a while, but that's only because the NewDCU raised sales for everything for a while. If you measure it as percentage of Batman like some of the earlier graphs, wouldn't the lines cross much earlier, showing that the NewDCU *did* kill the Legion (relative to other DC comics)?

What you have to remember is that sales of Batman NEARLY TREBLED from Batman #713 to N52 Batman #1. And they're still more than double - Batman v1 #713, in August 2011, had North American icv2 estimated orders of 51,760. Batman v2 #23, in August 2013? 128,230.

That makes Batman a very poor metric for comparison - sure, LSH v6 had a higher percentage of Batman v1 than LSH v7 and Batman v2, but that was as much about Batman as anything else.

As a percentage of DCU sales overall,... well, that's the yellow-orange line on the graph up a few posts. The N52 relaunch didn't change that trend by any significant amount - it just kept slipping down.

The big mistake DC made was keeping Paul Levitz and trying to run v6 smoothly into v7. The only other titles that tried anything approaching that were the core Batman and Green Lantern titles, and both of those sets had the sales to back it up, unlike LSH.

Waah wah waaaaaaaahhhhhhh.

Interesting. Thanks for the charts, 'Boot.


Looking at the absolute sales, by issue #9 the v7 series had lost all new readers that were attracted by issue #1. An eyeball of your trendlines also shows (at least it seems to me) that v7 had a steeper downwards curve (lost readers more quickly) than v6 did.