alright- your mission is to re-vamp (again) the Legion....where would you revamp it from? I would start again from the end of the Magic Wars...but where would you go from?

Hi Mind Bender Boy, thanks for jumping right in and starting a discussion. I think this would be more appropriate in the Legion of Super-Heroes forum, though. Do I have your permission to move this?

It'll definitely get more attention there as well, since it'll be with threads that are similar in nature and topic.

Please let me know! (I've also sent you a PM).

Pure fantasy, I guess, since it will never happen...

Firstly I hope the Legion gets a really long break from mad interpretations and from even madder creators. A
good decade or so for the *powers* to go through the trial and error process of any and all attempts at a 31st
century team that just won't measure up to the *Legion.* The only thing is that you can't count on the *powers*
to leave well enough alone. Alternate versions of the legion tend to pop up in other titles. Even after all
the noise the *Dildo* makes about keeping the DC Universe simpler. (Funny thing is that these alternate
Legions seem to be more appealing than the *main* Legion.) So even if the Legion doesn't have their own title,
we may still see them from time to time. Anyhow...

By the time the next idea fizzles. I'd love to see a mini or some such title that examines what life is like
for sentient beings in the 31st century. Maybe have some blanks filled in between the present day DCU and the
DCU in the future. An examination of the state of *Being...* economically, politically, socially. All in an
effort to flesh out the *WHY* of the Legion. Will there be a need for *Heroes?* Or will the function of the
Legion differ?

There are so many things I like about past Legions, (except for the Threeboot.) However, I really tire of the
overusage of the classic line-up. If I had my way, I'd start anew using a Legion with a history very close to
the original, but the story can pick up where the original *Crisis* left off. I'd have most of the classic
members, (all members pre-dating Blok,) retired. But serving in an advisory or mentor capacity. So we'd still
get to see them, but the focus would be on newer legionnaires. Preferably a combination of more recently
created Legionnaires, like Computo, Dragonmage, Kono, Laurel Gand, Kent Shakespeare, Kinetix, Shikari, Kid
Quantum, Gear, Dream Boy, (I know,) & completely new creations. I'd love to see more alien members, more
*Powerhouse* female members. Seems like stronger females are a *challenge* for alot of writers/creators. I
guess I'm looking to marry/merge the various interpretations of the Legion. I think that the future is vast
enough to contain all of those characters.

It seems to me that a core group of thirty members might not be enough to provide assistance/protection to an
entire universe. Logic would dictate that a *Legion* would encompass a multitude of members. Like the JL
property the team would be delegated into many smaller teams, focused on a particular approach to their goal.
Like the Legion Espionage; Legion Stealth; Legion Of Mages; Legion Rescue; Legion Medical and so on. Some
of these teams could have their own title/mini/special, where additional characters, not necessarily *Legion,*
could take on a more supportiive role. Members from other branches could crossover as needed. Local
Heroes/Planetary Champions could be temporarily drafted if needed. The future could really get fleshed out.

No time travelling to the present day DCU. Though I'd love for Supergirl to reside permanently in the 31st
Century. Time travelling would be more interesting if the Legion could only go forward in time. Or come up
with some sensible guidelines for time-rravelling. For instance, without some fair **exchange,** *ALL* time
travellers would find their *visit* to have many limitations. Time restrictions would be automatic. Such
travellers would find themselves *when* they were, (after 6 hours maybe less.) Also Meta-human travellers
may find that their powers don't function normally, or that health problems may be aggravated, or that an
otherwise healthy traveller, may suddenly be suffering from some ailment that may only worsen. Just a few
thoughts.

More sci-fi stories, it is the *FUTURE!!!* There doesn't always have to be a universal threat in order to have
a *stronger* story. Also don't care for the frequent expendabiltiy of characters. It is lazy storytelling, in
my opinion. Injuries necessitating extended recovery time can keep the canvas fresh. A rotating cast would be
welcome.

At present many things work against anyone's vison of an ideal Legion. Once upon a time, when comics were a
dime, or a quarter, comic companies were operating differently. I'm betting there wasn't the
stifling/squashing of artistic/creative expression. It wasn't all about maximizing sales. I guess I can't
be too harsh towards capitalism affecting the quality of output. Comics have gotten so *dark* over the past
few decades. Death and destruction are way too commonplace. When I was a kid comics were more of an escape
for me. We're inundated with plenty of *CRAP* in the real world. I was drawn to the fantasy, the adventure,
the magic and the *FUN!!!* Where'd they go?

It's possible your average buyer of comics isn't interested in reading about an organized and diverse group
of youthful/optimistic, bright-eyed agents of order who are *united* and giving their *best* for a brighter
future. They'd rather pick up a book where the characters are so perpetually at odds you'd have to ask why
they're on a *team?* A team filled with friction and tension, instead of camraderie and loyalty. And when
did all the female crimefighter start to look like dominatrixes. With some of the characrers enjoying
popularity these days, I'm wondering if the line beteen hero and criminal has gotten blurry. Maybe *Diddles*
& Crew ought to start a comic line specifically for thugs, sex offenders, & crimelords.

The best thing for the Legion is to let them go. Another publisher concerned with the *quality* of the *output*
as well as the *returns* might do the Legion some justice. (Of course, I'd personally have to deal with a
Legion without Supergirl.) Since that's not likely, I can only hope the DC mouth-pieces figure out that
*Creative Constipation* can be relieved by just placing their faces in the toilet. i'm sure the flow would be
much more productive. I'd love to say more, but I think I've gone on enough. Many pardons for my vulgarity,
(all without profanity.)

The original Legion (like Star Trek) existed in what was then the prevailing view of the future. This future was basically an extension of American cultural values fused with high tech. This in turn reflected a confidence in the innate superiority of our own values.

That confidence (some would see it as arrogance) is no longer the norm, and today's popular fiction reflects the somewhat ambiguous views we now hold of our own society and its role on the world stage. This is why we have a new, darker, Star Trek and have had more than one darker interpretation of the Legion's future as well.

As much as I loved the original Legion with its optimistic view of things to come, I just can't see many people these days being able to relate to that kind of future. Overall, I'd rather see the Legion retired for good than to keep trying to adapt to the current negativity that is the polar opposite of what the Legion was originally all about.

I actually kind of liked the recent Legion Secret Origin. The characters were fairly well-done, nobody too over-the-top, overall a nice little story arc. I like how the Time Trapper was handled, and I think it was one of Levitz's high points of the last few years.

I especially like the fact that they managed to get through all six issues without killing a legionnaire.

I wouldn't mind seeing a new series pick up from there... though I'd like Ultra Boy's costume to return to the green belt and emblem, rather than gold. The rest of the costumes were okay -- not exactly the original costumes, but a decent mix of old and new styles and minor revamps that fit together nicely without looking dated or out of place.

True, up to a point. I think, though, that showing a brighter, more optimistic future gives us an ideal, a goal to strive for. Without glimpses of futures like that, it gets harder to see what's wrong with the world as it is. There's hundreds of comics reflecting the darker side of our world, it's important to show that that's not the only way things have to be.

I think a future that any young reader can enjoy and actually wish to be there is a good thing.

I remember reading the 60s Legion fresh off the stands, and I was young enough to take it seriously enough to enjoy it. I reread 'em now, and I can see how hokey a lot of the stories were, and though I love 'em as much as I do, sometimes it's a little painful.

I think that comic like the Batman Adventures, Superman Adventures, and Justice League Adventures/Unlimited took 60s-styled stories and updated them perfectly for a more sophisticated youth audience. I'd love for them to do Legion that way, as an all-ages title that showcased young heroes overcoming overwhelming odds without a need for excessive violence, some good, old-fashioned science fiction adventures, with aliens, monsters, weird science and all the trimmings. Mysteries, crimes, invasions, other-dimensions, and lots of fun.

If I were in charge of re-vamping the Legion, I'd pick up the pieces right whoever Levitz things in LSH #23. This story was meant to be an in-story reboot, so let's see where this story takes us.

Good points, all. The question is are there any creative types out there that believe in an optimistic future enough to portray one honestly and convincingly?

As to what point I would launch a revamp from, I'd pick it up just before the Crisis. Both Superboy (young Kal-El) and Supergirl (Kara) would be part-time members, making occasional visits to the future, with Kara and Brainy's relationship still full of question marks. I realize that this would erase a couple of truly classic stories (the Universo Project in particular), but it would be worth it to restore the team's true history.

Picture this.

It is the distant future.

Garth, Imra, Ayla, Violet, Rokk, Lydda, and Mekt are retired and living on Winath. Garridan and Graym are in their early teens. Other scions of the Legion are pre-teens, or “tweens”.

The U.P. is at peace. Criminals are either reformed through advanced psionic techniques, or permanently exiled to “The Klein Bottle”, an artificial, theoretically inescapable dimension.

The Science Police spend their time on the equivalent of (a) rescuing cats from trees, (b) handing out parking tickets.

The old Legion Headquarters—all of them—are set up as museums in downtown Metropolis.

Are the Legion even necessary?

Continuity is deliberately ambiguous. Is this the Classic Legion, or something post-5YL, Batch SW6, the ReBoot, the ThreeBoot, the RetroBoot, the 52Boot? It is unclear. Aspects of each of these may crop up.

But the Children of the Legion are training, using their parents’ old techniques, in case they may be needed someday. This is all done individually and secretly over the Interstellarnet, as these kids are widely separated, on different planets throughout the U.P. Other characters are introduced, not Legion descendants, but interesting and powerful.

Then, when half a dozen sociopaths somehow escape from The Klein Bottle, and go on a murderous rampage, the SP is inept and helpless. Graym and Garridan steal their parents’ old Legion Cruiser, pick up a dozen teen “heroes”, and go to confront them.

The young demi-Legionnaires end up completely over their heads. Their parents have to show up to save their sorry selves.

End of Issue One: A Legion Academy is established on Earth, not only to train super-powered kids, but the entire Science Police contingent.

Future issues move between stories of the "old" and "new" Legionnaires. The cast is completely unwieldy- possibly over a hundred "main" characters.

Issue Two: Garridan has Validus-like powers, and a girlfriend named Ivy. Graym has… chores on Lightning Ring Farms. Graym takes off for Korbal in an attempt to gain powers like his father, aunt and uncle. With dire consequences…

OR...

Great heroes of Earth history that are brought into the distant future as teenagers, before they were heroes, to be trained by the heroes of that day to fulfill their ultimate destinies. Superboy and Supergirl, of course. Perhaps a young Bruce Wayne, or other DC super-heroes. But also:

Issun Boshi – Japan
Atalanta – Greece
Hiawatha – North America
Beowulf – Scandinavia (5th century AD)
the Leopard Warrior – Congo (12th century AD)
Lung Mo – China
Artemis – Greece
Siegfried – Scandinavia
Merlin – British Isles (9th century AD)
Finn McCool – British Isles
Enkidu -- Iraq (25th century BC)
Baba Yaga -- Russia
Oya -- Nigeria (Yoruba) (4th century BC)
Itzpapalotl – South America (Aztec) [aka Obsidian Butterfly]

OR:

The Legions of Super-Heroes

Tens of thousands of members, from more than fifty U.P. worlds, each world providing hundreds of teen-aged members with identical, or near-identical powers, under the auspices of the Science Police and ICC, creating the greatest fighting force in the United Planets.

Any number of Cosmic Boys and Girls from Braal, Chameleons from Durla, Phantoms from Bgztl, Brainiacs from Colu, and Bloks from Korlon.
Everyone on Winath would have lightning powers, everyone on Aarok would be a super-speedster, etc., etc.
Trom would be a living world, filled with elemental transmuters.
New worlds would be created for the series, where all the inhabitants had the various powers of
Bouncing Boy, Catspaw, Colossal Boy, Crystal Kid, Elastic Lad, Ferro Lad, Harmonia Li, Insect Queen, Invisible Kid, Karate Kid, Monstress, Nightwind, Porcupine Pete, Spider Girl, Sun Boy, Tyroc, Visi-Lad, and Wildfire.
Legion HQ and the Legion Academy would be on Weber's World, with other Legion Clubhouses scattered throughout the U.P. The Legion HQ and Legion Academy together would be perhaps ten times the size of 21st-century Oxford or Harvard universities, and twenty times the size of Yale.
Teen Green Lanterns, Amazons, and Darkstars might occastionally turn up in the ranks.
There ought to be a few Gil'Dispan, and other more alien races represented. (see Green Lantern Corps)
The focus would be on small groups of heroes, perhaps seven to twenty at a time, shifting to another group after perhaps a year of stories.
Personalities and appearance would differ among the various heroes from the same world. They would be distinguished as
Phantom Girl 449, Phantom Boy 289, Saturn Girl 034, Saturn Boy 380, Cosmic Boy 458, Cosmic Girl 491, Timber Wolf 029, Gazelle 451, and so forth.

Some particular iterations of characters might become more popular than others.

Some heroes of the same world might take more particular names: Princess Projectra, Sensor, and Command Kid; Lightning Lad, Live Wire, Storm Boy, and Dynamo Boy; or Dawnstar, Shikari, and Mwindaji.
In a United Planets with a sentient population of a trillion or so, this is still a tiny fighting force: they would be less than one in ten million. Something else else like having an elite UN fighting force of just five hundred specially-trained operatives.

OR...

JUSTICE LEGION]

On a distant world, a motley group of powerful beings meet together in council:

The Twelve Elders of Myth (Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, Zeus, Achilles, and Mercury; as well as Selene, Hippolyta, Adriane, Zephyrus, Aurora, and Minerva)
The Thirteen Immortals of Malthus (ancestors of the Oans and Zamarons)
The Hawk Council of Thanagar (who are somewhat out of their league, but are here by invitation)
Horus-Ra
The Lords of Order
The Elemental Compositors of Apellax

Each presents champions they have created from semi-humanoid aliens of various worlds:
1) Captain Marvel (Male aka Marvellus)
2) Captain Marvel (Female, aka Marveiia)
3) a Green Lantern (Male)
4) a Star Sapphire (Female)
5) Hawkman (empowered with a full range of 31st-century Thanagarian technology)
6) Hawkwoman (empowered with a full range of 31st-century Thanagarian technology)
7) Kemet, the Element Man (a Metamorpho-like character)
8) Sekhmet, the Element Woman (a Metamorpho-like character)
9) Doctor Fate (a Male / Female hybrid)
10) The Eight-Fold Woman (Female) (Has the ability to assume any of seven ‘elemental’ forms: Rock Giant, Wood Being, Fire Elemental, Mercury Being, Golden Bird, Crystalline Being, Glass Woman)

These ten form the core group of the Justice Legion, whose mission is to (a) uphold Justice throughout the Galaxy, and (b) seek out additional heroes to join their ranks.

Among the first added to the group are:
11) The Spectre
12) The Radiant
who, due to their other responsibilities throughout the Multiverse (and the fact that they are so disturbingly powerful) are only occasionally found working with the other members.

I suppose I'm part of a minority, in that I don't believe there is anything 'broken' to be 'revamped' about the Legion of Super-Heroes. I think the core of the concept is as strong, and as relevant, as ever. It's the execution that has been bungled, and by some of our favorite creators.

It's about the future that looked almost exclusively to the past, in every way. The very style of artwork and writing would have been considered dated in the 90s, much less in the year 2013.

The book lost its way, that much is undeniable; but that the themes and ideas underpinning it need some grand reformulation to 'work' again is wrong headed, IMHO.

If I were given the Legion, I'd take what we have, and I'd simply do it better than those who came before (or, you know, TRY). I'd make it smarter, I'd make it more challenging, more obviously relevant, more futuristic, more subtextual. I think anyone who takes over the Legion has to have that outlook, and that alone.

I talk a little about it here:

http://heshouldreallyknowbetter.blogspot.com/2013/05/so-they-cancelled-legion.html


No continuity restructuring. No 'do-overs', no restarts, no erasing. No more origins, for the love of god, PLEASE no more origins. Lets just do something different, that uses what came before without being beholden to it.

^^Amen!

I would start in ADV late 330s or early 340's. I would make use of flashback to tell missing stories and fill in characterization. I would use any characters and stories legally available and just go with that from scratch. I might add supporting cast but I would not be in any rush to add Legionnaires.

I really liked the Post-Zero Hour Legion, at least up until the Dark Circle story. I thought LSH # 0/Legionnaires # 0 was a perfect way to construct a new Legion mythos.

If I were to start a revamp now, I'd start with a story called, "Whatever happened to the Legion of Super-Heroes?" A young reporter, Devlin O'Ryan, disheartened with the cynicism of his job, looks longingly at the bright colors and happy faces of the old articles about the Legion's exploits. He's assigned to the "celebrity" beat, and catches some nasty pictures of wild socialite Celeste McCauley (sort of a 31st-century Paris Hilton), but instead of immediately publishing, he sees something sad in her eyes. He talks to her, and discovers that she acts out because she hates the "empty" role that she feels her rich family makes her play. She wishes she could disappear into a different identity. He feels that he can "rescue" her, and himself, if they can find and recapture the spirit of youngsters who were thrust into the limelight and rose to the occasion, and the press and then public celebrated and felt uplifted by their triumphs rather than feel amused and smugly superior witnessing their debasement.

With Celeste's money and Devlin's investigative abilities, they track down several former Legionnaires - one (or one family) per issue - and they hear (again, one per issue until the initial storyline is over) a story of the Legion's glory days, and a perspective on the Legion's end. By the time the story is over (5 or 6 issues), we'll have a complete picture of the overall sweep of Legion history, and why the Legion is no longer a going concern. The last one they'll visit (in this issue) will be Polar Boy, who tells them about how he created the Subs when the Legion wouldn't let him join, driving home the lesson that they don't need something outside themselves to do inspiring good deeds, they need to step up and take the initiative themselves. They (with Polar Boy's blessing) found a "Substitute Legionnaires" club of their own. Thus concludes the first arc.

The next year or two of stories deal with building up the organization - tryouts for new members, looking for jobs for their team to do, threats building, encounters with other former Legionnaires. Ultimately, the idea is for the series to be structured on the model of James Robinson's Starman series: the primary heroes are a new generation, the prior generation is active as advisors and sometimes actual physical help, and every so often a "Times Past" story featuring the classic Legionnaires.

The end of Legion Worlds. DnA's work up to that point was great, they only fell flat when the Legion ongoing was launched.

HAHA. This last week has been a huge excuse to repeatedly harp on my re-vamping idea!

I'd take all the Legions from whatever stopping point they happened to have, though I would refrain from taking the SW6 and Earth-2 groups. I think that those two would be too confused with their counterparts just due to similar artistic designs. Not to mention I don't think many would miss them.

The original legion ended at Zero Hour. The reboot Legion is traveling the Multiverse looking for castaways. The 3boot legion is (I assume) still on Earth Prime.

I would really love to use them ALL. Their base could, conceivably, be Earth Prime. It's a natural starting point, as this was the world that all other worlds come from anyway, so it's ideal. That world's Brainiac 5 could grab the original legion from a previous ZH point in their history (whenever the writer would decide) to help with a multiversal problem, while grabbing the New Wanderers at the same time! Then, after the immediate problem is over, they could decide to help problems THROUGHOUT THE MULTIVERSE. FOREVER!

It would be SO COOL. Reboot Invisible Kid hanging out with Original Brainiac 5! Umbra chilling out with Mon-El! Phantom Girl hanging out with Apparition! What's not to like?

People are always talking about the Legion being too dense for new readers, but I think DC should EMBRACE it! You've got so many different versions, so why not USE them all? Market the book as challenging and quirky and unique! And you could NEVER run out of plot ideas when you have the whole Multiverse to play with.

Good points, Conjure Lass, although it does have the potential to go horribly wrong and devolve into continuity porn.

And the latest run of LOSH didn't go horribly wrong?

XD

Of course it did. But wrong is wrong no matter where it's coming from.

Conjure:

Legionnaires from many timelines (and possibly times?) fighting against threats across the Multiverse?

I like the idea.

But it doesn't exactly sound like the Legion... it sounds like Tempus Knights!

Well, there has to be something sort of "new and exciting" about it when the Legion comes back. It can still have all the core qualities that make the Legion great while still having this new twist. They've always traveled through time before, why not the entire multiverse? There's no reason, when it seems like everyone and their MOM can do it in the main DCU, that the Legion cannot be casually doing it a thousand years later. It could totally work in the right hands and with the right amount of setup.

Just to be clear: I intended it as a compliment.

Delayed reaction but I love this idea! Not so much to replace the Legion, but it'd be brilliant if this was the premiere hero team of some other century altogether!

The Eight-Fold Woman in particular is brilliant and such a kooky nod to continuity....she could have fallen right out of Grant Morrison's head

1) DC is so marketing driven that revamping it now would be a disaster. Paul's writing had its problems, but there were also problems that were clearly related to DC being marketing-driven, such as the crossover in the middle of Legion Lost and Giffen complaining about just that.

2) I'd start after Paul's series. Get rid of Earth-2 and the deaths in a few throwaway lines, and otherwise don't retcon anything. Even tossing out a few years of issues causes confusion, and besides, Paul's run follows from Geoff Johns and we don't want to throw that out. Paul actually did very little that is a permanent problem.

The 31st century JLA should toss in as many existing characters as possible: Laurel Kent as Superwoman, Rond Vidar as GL, XS, Batman of the 31st Century (Brane Taylor).

As Leather Wolf and Desaad have said, I'd keep going from the end of the current run. It's far form a broken concept.

In a perfect world, I'd combine more elements of the previous runs into an overall chronology.

I'd love to see Laurel Gand again, for example. Kent Shakespeare too was an instant favourite. Both bright, optimistic characters in their gritty, troubled worlds.

Of course, in doing that you may want to bump off Element Lad as the Proginator and Gim Allon at the hands of Glorith etc. There wouldn't be too many left

From another thread which I accidentally nudged off-topic with a post similar to the one above:



The Ra's Al Ghul thing was IMHO thee shark-jump moment of the DnA era.

Despite being one of Batman's biggest foes, I've not really read too many stories with him in them. I suppose it the idea of Lazarus pits that would have brought him up as a potential villain. Terraforming the moon? Hypertaxis? Not that taken with that one either. better than the Darkseid one though.

At least when Levitz brought back Ivo, you never saw him outside of his cryochamber.

That hypertaxis story was pretty much awful, but if you're going to pick up at some random point in the reboot, I'd just chuck everything after the first year or two. There's really nothing in DnA that wouldn't gladly sacrifice to get rid of much of the lameness that started with the Emerald Violet stuff.

Wow, EDE. I mean, to each their own, but...even Legion Lost is expendable to you?

Easily.

I'll just have to politely agree to disagree. I love DnA's Legion Lost more with every re-read, and it may well be, in my opinion, the greatest Legion story of all time.

Wow. I have completely the opposite reaction to it. I mean... it was kind of exciting reading it as it was coming out, but it (like most of DnA's run) hasn't aged well at all for me.

The story just always seems really small to me for a twelve issue series, and they never really do justice to building up the whole "second universe" setting. Plus, even though I know DnA didn't actually originate characterizations like crazy Jan and rape-y Imra, they're definitely ones that I'm not fond of, and really don't have a great desire to read about.

Interesting. I had a similar negative reaction to a Marvel Bronze Age "classic" written by a former distinguished Legion writer, Jim Shooter. I'm talking, of course, about the Korvac Saga in the Avengers. I've long felt that Legion Lost was inspired by the Korvac Saga but DnA got everything right that Shooter had originally gotten wrong.

Different strokes and all that...