Just a little thread for general discussion of the top 100 comics.


So I checked December's list and found it interesting that TEEN TITANS is outselling JLA. TT is in the top 20 (# 18 I think), JLA was at # 21 iirc.

I wonder which cartoon gets better ratings?

Can you post a link where we can see the top 100? (it might be too much to list them all here) That way we'd know which books qualify for discussion.

I'll have to let Scott field that one.

I entered Top 100 Comics into MSN's search and went to a website... ICv I think it was...

Here's the link:
comic sales December 2003

(They don't appear to let you copy the text out anyways.)

There certainly are a lot of Ultimates titles in the top sellers. I gotta run but will comment more tomorrow.

Whoa! Superman/Batman is doing phenomenally well -- issues #4 and #5 occupy TWO of the top ten spots, and constitute the two best-selling DC titles! Who'd've thunk?

Also good to see some of my current faves, G.I. Joe/Transformers and Transformers/G.I. Joe (two separate mini-series), and non-guilty guilty pleasure Street Fighter, doing so well...

I'm not surprised that JLA has slipped a bit, given the response to the latest arc.

I will admit I'm surprised and pleased at the response to Supes/Bats. I knew it would do well, but I wasn't thinking Top 10.

I'l admit that the success of the SM/BM title plus the announcement of the upcoming Michael Turner/Supergirl arc (and not to mention the cameos of lower-tier DC characters in the series I've heard about) has me wishing I'd bought the title from the get-go.

Guess I'll have to collect it in TPB form...


I'm extremely pleased that the Giffen/Maguire FORMERLY KNOWN AS JUSTICE LEAGUE series seems to have been a top 40/50 hit...

A few items surprised me - not a regular follower of the sales lists - 1602 was the #2 seller - there's been very little discussion/mention of it here at LW. What comments there were gave me the impression that it was no great shakes.

On the other hand, I read quite a few positive reactions to Negation, both here and from other sources. Yet Negation doesn't even make the cut for the top 100 (it's down at 158).

Two other rankings were a surprise as well: Planetary and Plastic Man in the mid-50s. Planetary is interesting, but a bit offbeat; not much story to the book and I would have thought it would suffer from that long interruption in publishing. Perhaps absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Plastic Man is another offbeat book, very cartoony. Of course, that was the first issue - I wonder if succeeding ones will hold the same rank. (I've liked it so far - but most of my regular comics were below the top 100, some not even in the top 300, so I'm no guide.)

I wonder if the readership for the top 40-50 books is very cohesive - the hard core superhero/action set - and below the 50 mark or so, you start to get a more diverse readership. Would Pareto's Law apply to comics - 20% of the readers buy 80% of the books (by volume)?

It's come in for a fair share of criticism to be sure. Some of that, I think, has to do with the expectations that come with any Neil Gaiman project.

Here's another list for discussion. The Top 100 Books and GN of 2003 . I'm not surprised that the final chapter of Hush topped the list but I am that Ultimate Fantastic Four #1 finished the year in third when it was released in the final days of the year.

Not to get away from the discussion, but I am really enjoying Gaiman's 1602. The latest issue was very well done, and I think Gaiman's writing is great like always. I think a lot of people just don't like his style or the way he paces a book. I know that it seems like a lot doesn't happen in one issue and then a ton does in the next, but I like every issue he likes because his story-telling sucks me right in.

Superman/Batman is a great, great book. I also expect to see Superman break the Top Ten soon now that Jim Lee is drawing. With good reason too, the art looks great and I have high expectations for Brian Azzerelo.

Negation deserves to be phenomenonally higher. It is a far better book than most of DC and Marvel's these days.

The Ultimate Books continue to do well, yet I keepp wondering why I even buy them. I'm starting to hate Ultimate X-Men and Ultimates and Ultimate Spider-Man is hit and miss every week. Bendis is a great writer, but there are too many issues that he writes that I can read in under a minute. But I guess a $2.25 price tag has a lot to do with what kids buy.

Nice to see SUPREME POWER at # 17. I am worried, however, about X-STATIX at # 74. Marvel doesn't keep titles at # 74 around forever, y'know.

WOW-- TEEN TITANS GO! no. 2 placed at # 96, not bad at all for a kiddie-cartoon-based comic. This also means the brand name of TEEN TITANS has TWO slots in the Top 100...

Oh, and I'm also pleased to see OUTSIDERS doing so well, with no. 7 placing safely within the top 40 at # 37! I love that book!

I took a look at OUTSIDERS at the store today. I liked what I saw -- is it a different penciller? I got the first issue way back when, and I remember not being blown away by the art.

I wasn't super-impressed with Raney either other than his cool rendition of Metamorpho.

However, since he returned from a several-issue break after being sick, his art has improved in my eye BIG time.

*deleted crappy cut & paste job*

Well, that copy/pasted crappy but you can get the gist of it...

MAN!

It's offical-- TEEN TITANS is DC's second-highest selling comic (and it isn't TOO far from # 1 seller BATMAN). Also again scoring in the top 100 is TEEN TITANS GO! Looks like the Teen Titans franchise has been officially revitalized!

Willikers! OUTSIDERS is now a Top-30 comic!

Notice how EVERY title in the Top 10 sold at LEAST 100K? Wonder when the last time THAT happened was?

Yay! LEGION outsold AQUAMAN!

I'm happy to see that "Supreme Power" came in #15! That's great for a non-franchise kinda book.

I had to delete that terrible cut/paste. I'll do links from here on!

*sigh* Another crappy cut/paste.

TEEN TITANS inches up another slot, EVER so close to the Top 10...

Can I point out that the number beside the rankings (left of the title) is relative to Batman (where Batman = 100, regardless of actual sales), not a number.

And, on the March sales (where you got the estimated numbers I see ), ouch on Captain Marvel - it's rivalling Spider-Girl here, and not in a good way...

June 2005!

Top 300

DC continues to see massive success for the IC stuff. House of M is a sales success for Marvel. With IC ruling all, Morrison scores a batch of quiet hits with his 7 SOLDIERS stuff for DC.

The days of the 100K comic seem to be firmly back. That's a good thing, I think.

TEEN TITANS continues to be a top seller.

GLA probably didn't score big enough numbers to warrant an ongoing, with # 3 (of 4) placing at 85. The rank for # 1 of the NEW WARRIORS mini, though, was wretched!

I'm noting many X-related books out of the Top 100 list. Time to cull those, methinks.

I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel ends up being happy with those GLA numbers. It's not like they could have expected much.

That said, I think the concept itself works against an ongoing.

You don't know how close to the truth of what will happen to the MU after House of M you are Lash.

I wonder if they'll have to keep having special events to keep the sales figures at the 100,000 range - or if event comics will get old.

I was surprised/dismayed to see the excellent Solo #5 featuring Darwyn Cooke to only sell 14,262 copies - maybe all the Solos have been at the lower end of sales. They certainly haven't been promoted much and there's a ton of noise with IC and House of M.

SOLO
10/ 2004: Solo #1 -- 30,482
11/ 2004: --
12/ 2004: Solo #2 -- 19,390 (-36.4%)
01/ 2005: --
02/ 2005: Solo #3 -- 15,553 (-19.8%)
03/ 2005: --
04/ 2005: Solo #4 -- 13,566 (-12.8%)
05/ 2005: --
06/ 2005: Solo #5 -- 14,262 (+ 5.1%)

(These from Marc-Oliver Frisch on the DC newsgroup)

So Darwyn's issue is actually a jump in sales for SOLO. To be honest, I haven't even bought any of the SOLO books, and haven't seen one iota of hype or info about them that I can recall.

I noticed that Solo 5 sold out at the local shops though many copies of 3 and 4 could still be had. Of course I'm in Darwyn's hometown and he's had plenty of publicity lately winning the Shuster for Canadian Cartoonist of the Year and now an Eisner.

What do you mean there, Scooter? Know something we don't? Do tell! PMs if necessary!

How about inviso-text? Don't highlight if you don't want to know:

Expect a massive reduction in the level of mutants in the Marvel Universe, almost to the 1960's level. Being a mutant will become something very special, as opposed to the almost everyday occurrence prevalent in books like Mutant X and Morrison's New X-Men.

How this happens? Oh no. I'm not going to spoil *that* for you...

Green light rumor from Lying in the Gutters.

Oh, and since I'm doing spoilers, here's one from the same source, same green light, as to the big change to the DCU in Infinite Crisis:

Okay, okay, Even I'm not going to totally ruin this one. But a major character dies and is replaced by their successor, just as The Flash did in the first Crisis On Infinite Earths. This will kick off a new mini-series, which will turn into an ongoing.

No I'm not saying who. Shut up.

On your first one:

Awesome. I want that to happen--waaaaaaay to much of a good thing has flooded the MU and turned it to a minor annoyance. I hope that happens.

Second:

Ouch. I really hope it's not Batman, but I don't think DC would ever be that stupid. I guess all the Wonder Woman speculation might be more accurate than I previously thought. B/c I definatley don't see GA, GL, Flash, Hawkman having that happen to them.

Hmm. And this would certainly solidify Donna's place in the DCU, wouldn't it?

Plus, it's happened before with Wonder Women.

I see it being more Diana than Bruce. Remember, they've already said that the One-Year-Later for Batman starts with Bruce in Arkham and Dick playing Batman.

But would they do that to Wonder Woman with a big WW pic in the offing?

You sure about that? We know that [i]something[/] is going to happen to Moonstar during or just after House of M...

Well, I hope Dani and my other faves are safe!

JULY 2005

Hmm. All 4 of the InfCrisis lead-in minis place in the top 20.

DC tops the chart again this month, but Jillikers...! Where is recent # 1 Green Lantern?

House of M doing quite well.

Hawkman re-enters the top 100. Good.

Defenders # 1 makes the top 50. Good.

You might want to try the August 2005 instead Lash.

As for your Green Lantern question, #2 ranked #4 in sales on the June chart. No GLs were released in July and no.'s 3 and 4 placed in the top 10 in August.

Thanks, Scott.

DC tops the sales list again in August and even beats Marvel in amount of Top 10 titles 6/4.

An excellent start for Supergirl.

Hawkman falls out of the top 100 even though the sales go up in August.

I'll be glad when the House of Ho-Hum and the Infinite Crisis titles are all done so we get a glimpse of real sales. At this point I'd like to see a chart that tracks the regular titles separate from the specials.

Click below for October's list!


http://www.newsarama.com/marketreport/Oct05charts.html

SHE-HULK vol. 2 # 1 breaks top 50.

Not 1 but 2 JSA titles in the top 30.

That's about the highest I've ever seen WONDER WOMAN place.

TEEN TITANS is still rockin', and OUTSIDERS is still rollin'.

The bwa-ha-ha version of DEFENDERS has stayed strong, especially for a miniseries.

JLA is back to the numbers it used to command.

FATHOM sure doen't perform like it used to.

Nice to see HAWKMAN rise up to the 80s.

Paul O'Brian makes a salient point in his "Marvel for October" post in the Marvel newsgroup, though. He's noted that in terms of actual units sold, it's not doing that much better than it did around the previous #1.

They really should have pushed this more.

37,000-plus is pretty good, but yeah, this *is* a number 1 issue. I'd certainly like to see it hit at least the 50,000 range.

Comics seem to be selling more in general than they did, say about late 90s, dont they?

The numbers seem to be higher, which is a good thing.

But I don't know how much of that is due to a few "event" issues doing extremely well or if comics as a whole are picking up. May have to wait for the dust to clear from these current arcs before we get a better picture.

So, here's the list for January 2006!

Let's chat!

DC is really trying to kick Marvel's ass sales-wise, huh?

JSA: the team DC was once ashamed of commads 2 books in the top 40.

SHE-HULK hanging on at # 70. But, oh MY. THE THING is at # 97 and only on issue two. This won't stand. AT ALL. BUY THESE BOOKS!!!

HAWKMAN is up from old stats, at # 87.

FIRESTORM has broken back into the top 100, at # 99.

GLX-MAS SPECIAL only hit # 122? *tsk!*

No LEGION at all this month.

Dang, that's not good at all...

Hopefully word-of-mouth about Todd Rice and Kate's JSA link in #18 help turn things around. This book is good, and these numbers hurt.

But wait... the GLX-Mas thing was a December release... maybe that was reorders?

Heh heh, you said "broke back", heh heh. [/Butthead]

The link is for books released in December.

The overall dominance of the the big two isn't a good thing for the industry. Although I'm glad to see both of them trying a wider variety of stuff in recent months. Everything from BWAHAHA funny style books to western to romance. A lot of that stuff isn't selling like hot cakes though.

Well, fudge-nuggets.

Disappointing numbers for ROCKETO #4. Hope the move to Image with #7 and a trade for 1-6 helps out.

Rocketo's not getting a lot of promotion unfortunately. Shame it reminds me of some of those story books I used to scour libraries for as a kid. The art's not for everyone though, I don't think I could of appreciated this abstract stuff even as a 20 year-old.

Aside from that, part of it has to be its hard to categorize. Post-apocolyptic sci-fi mixed in with Homeric (the Greek not the Simpson , I cant resist those puns... I am weak) myth doesn't attract a lot of people.

Actually, If I described it as that itd probably turn off fans of both and leave an audience of 12 or 15.

Funny, I thought the same thing during Jason Pearson's run in the LEGION 5YL arc...

Here's the list for JULY 2006 TOP 300

Well, 52 sure was a good idea, saleswise. DAY-yum. We're looking at 400,000-plus in sales for one comic here if you wanna count all 4 weekly issues as 1 monthly book.

We have a TEEN TITANS book so strong now it is outselling some X-Books, and deservedly so I'll wager.

JSA's final issue slipped, but I'll wager the relaunch sees it back in the top 30.

Impressive sales for Atom's first issue.

Higher sales than I would have guessed for SUPERGIRL.

I'd sure like to see SHE-HULK higher.

SHADOWPACT needs to step it up.

**SPUTTER!!** DAUGHTERS of the DRAGON # 6 way down at # 154? That's a shame-- can't believe Marvel OK'ed a HEROES FOR HIRE ongoing... but I'm glad they did!

That list reminds me, I was going to get Jack Kirby's Galactic Bounty Hunters (way down there at #140). Good to see Mouse Guard 1 & 2 made the list.

I wonder how the costs work out for 52. Is it cheaper to produce 4 weekly comics than 4 monthly comics?

But Holy Hulk! The Civil War issues really blew everything else away.

#89. 22.19 HAWKGIRL #54

I remember when Palmiotti and Gray got this book out of the lower 100's into the 70's. At least OLY has kept it in the top 100, even if the content doesnt justify it.

#34 59.3 DETECTIVE COMICS #821
&
#5 100 BATMAN #655*

Thats quite a gap for the two main Bat books. Hmm.

I'm willing to bet that gap is becaause of 2 things, and they're called MORRISON and KUBERT.

Ick. I dropped HAWKGIRL after 2 issues. It was a colossal disappointment after the excellent Gray/Palmiotti run.

I didn't think so - dropped it after the first two OYL stories. Johns, I think, is highly dependent on a good artist, to sell his scripts. Without same, I tend to find the stories a lot more lacking than usual.

I'll take that wager and raise to Top 10!

VERY good series thus far. I really like that the protagonist is someone who genuinly wants to do good and cheerfully takes on the super-heroes for the sheer fun of doing good and exploring the unknown. Also, that he always seems to stop that crook running down the hall with the gate reciepts.

My only fear is that the two Gail Simone stories I have read, her Legion arc and her more recent spin on JLA: Classified, both started out very, very strong and quickly meandered to a sputtering conclusion. I am hoping beyond hope that she can maintain my interest on this one.

I dropped it immediatly after reading issue #7. The story was blah and I likely would have dropped it anyway, but what really pissed me off is that I pre-ordered it as chapter 1 of the OYL story featuring Supergirl and Power Girl in Kandor and Nightwing and Flamebird. Imagine my surprise when the book arrived and it turned out to be part 2!!

I know the book was running late, but they used to hold inventory stories for a reason, dagnabit!
I dropped this from the pre-order I just put in tonight based on the Blue Devil solo in #4. It was, oh I donnu, just so ho-hum, I guess. Made me realize that, for me, Shadowpact is all about the monkey. I'd just as soon DC cancled this title in favor of a Detective Chimp ongoing series.

Direct to you, straight from the FWIW file, these are the books I bought:


2 JUSTICE LEAGUE O/AMERICA #0 DC 162,378
4 52 WEEK #11 DC 122,016
5 BATMAN #655 DC 113,567
13 52 WEEK #9 DC 102,142
14 52 WEEK #10 DC 100,779
16 52 WEEK #12 DC 98,667
18 SUPERMAN BATMAN #28 DC 92,603
21 SUPERGIRL #7 (RES) DC 85,175
25 FLASH FASTEST MAN ALIVE #2 DC 77,487
26 SUPERGIRL #8 (RES) DC 76,942
29 TEEN TITANS #37 DC 71,263
32 SUPERMAN #654 DC 69,526
34 DETECTIVE COMICS #821 DC 67,345
35 ACTION COMICS #841 DC 58,657
42 ALL NEW ATOM #1 DC 49,969
43 JSA #87 DC 49,583
44 DAREDEVIL #87 MAR 49,436
47 CAPTAIN AMERICA #20 MAR 47,357
53 SUPERGIRL & LEGION OF SUPER HEROES #20 DC 41,679
54 UNCLE SAM & FREEDOM FIGHTERS #1 (Of 8) DC 40,736
58 CRISIS AFTERMATH SPECTRE #3 (Of 3)DC 38,772
63 SHADOWPACT #3 DC 36,341
66 BLUE BEETLE #5 DC 35,490
79 JLA CLASSIFIED #24 DC 31,697
81 JLA CLASSIFIED #25 DC 30,709
82 AQUAMAN SWORD O/ATLANTIS #43 DC 30,584
89 HAWKGIRL #54 DC 25,201
94 ASTRO CITY SAMARITAN SP DC 24,394
106 JONAH HEX #9 DC 20,385
151 GOON #18 DAR 11,504
177 FRANKLIN RICHARDS SON O/GENIUS SPR SMMR SPCTCLR MAR 8,324

Also purchased for this month, but did not see on the list (likely becasue they were late) All-Star Superman #5, Aquaman: Sword of Atlantis #44, Teen Titans #38, Wonder Woman #2 and Rocketo #10.

Also, one that would have been on the GN list, Spirit Archives #19.

Should mention that I did not include things I bought that were obviously on this list as reorders.

Hmm. I think Tony Daniel's art (Teen Titans) is kick ass myself. That book is probably my current favorite DC title.

The monkey does rule, and I'm still enjoying SHADOWPACT and thought # 4 was a lot of fun. (My "step it up" comment was based on its sales-- not my opinion of the actual title, which I quite like).

I can't believe Green Lantern is selling so well. *And* the quality is excellent. In fact, I personally think only Titans is equally as good right now from DC, and DC has some pretty kick-ass books.

The numbers for 52 and Civil War are mind-blowing. That's really impressive.

I wonder what Brave and Bold will sell like when its out? If issue #1 is Batman & Green Lantern and issue #2 is Green Lantern and Supergirl, they could be pretty high! Traditionally team-up books don't sell well anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised to see DC ending this trend.

Very glad to see Cap & DD selling around $50K and Legion above $40K. It'd do my heart good to see Legion hit $50K for a few months.

And a link for DEC. 2006!

WOW-- the relaunched JLoA and JSoA must qualify as unparallelled successes. Outselling-- by FAR-- the top 2 X-MEN books, which don't even make the top 10. Quite different than anything we would have seen a few years ago.

Decent numbers for TRIALS OF SHAZAM.

Just noticed ASTONISHING X-MEN # 19 in the top 10... my oldschool self tends to overlook anything that isn't UNCANNY or the early-90s ADJECTIVELESS. My bad.

DC SALES IN THE CRAPPER?


Reboot has posted that sales of SALVATION RUN are not close to what was expected.

Povvins has posted that sales of CATWOMAN are circling the drain.

I was able to check the top 300 comics the other day, and was a little shocked by what I saw.

Sales of minis such as UNCLE SAM/FREEDOM FIGHTERS and CAPTAIN CARROT/FINAL ARK were in the toilet, and S/LSH, BOOSTER GOLD and BRAVE & BOLD were all in the bottom part of the top 100.

Stuff like SHADOWPACT, BLUE BEETLE, INFINITY INC and AQUAMAN was doing very poorly.

COUNTDOWN seemed to be doing okay (I myself have dropped it) but it seemed DC's big 2 were JLoA and JSoA, both in the top 10. The GREEN LANTERN franchise also seemed to be doing well.

So, whaddup with that? Is COUNTDOWN (and the influx of related minis) combined with the influx of 52-related titles on top of the stuff that spun out of INFINITE CRISIS strangling DC Comics' sales? Or is it more of a quality thing? (hard for me to buy, because qualitywise to me, BOOSTER GOLD and B&tB are excellent).

[thread title edited to promote discussion}

repost of final page 5 post:


DC SALES IN THE CRAPPER?


Reboot has posted that sales of SALVATION RUN are not close to what was expected.

Povvins has posted that sales of CATWOMAN are circling the drain.

I was able to check the top 300 comics the other day, and was a little shocked by what I saw.

Sales of minis such as UNCLE SAM/FREEDOM FIGHTERS and CAPTAIN CARROT/FINAL ARK were in the toilet, and S/LSH, BOOSTER GOLD and BRAVE & BOLD were all in the bottom part of the top 100.

Stuff like SHADOWPACT, BLUE BEETLE, INFINITY INC and AQUAMAN was doing very poorly.

COUNTDOWN seemed to be doing okay (I myself have dropped it) but it seemed DC's big 2 were JLoA and JSoA, both in the top 10. The GREEN LANTERN franchise also seemed to be doing well.

So, whaddup with that? Is COUNTDOWN (and the influx of related minis) combined with the influx of 52-related titles on top of the stuff that spun out of INFINITE CRISIS strangling DC Comics' sales? Or is it more of a quality thing? (hard for me to buy, because qualitywise to me, BOOSTER GOLD and B&tB are excellent).

Re: Countdown vs. 52, we're paying more for less... 52 retailed @ $2.50 for the entire run as opposed to Countdown selling at regular prices ($2.99), and the quality was better overall in both story and art. And where the first had very few tie-ins outside the WW3 crud, DC seems desperate for sales with the flood of Countdown-connected mini's and whatnot. Add Marvel's own flood of Civil War Initiative titles, and the wallets are being spread pretty thin.

I honestly don't think it's a quality thing. There are more talented people working in comics than ever before.

The fact that DC and Marvel both try to publish as many titles as they can is part of the reason methinks.

Trust me there are lots of books I like that don't sell well but I know they are aiming it to small audience.

Not enough star power. Though DC did suprise me in sales recently.

It all comes down to one little sentence:

You can only buy so much...

If you have to get Countdown, you can't buy four other issues that month!

We guys over in Europe are a little bit lucky right now cause the Euro gets stronger and stronger -> US comics get cheaper and cheaper every month. Still, books like Uncle Sam or Captain Carrot are way too cheesy to pick up a large audience anyway...

The 2004 Titan/Legion crossover was the first comic I had picked up in over a decade. Throughout Infinite Crisis and 52, I was getting about 20~25 books/month, mostly DC/Wildstorm/Vertigo, plus buying any colleected series from the past 10 years or so.

Now I buy about 10 books/month. Lack of interest in Countdown as a successor to 52 accounts for much of the drop-off. Wonder Woman, Flash, Supergirl, and Atom lost my interest. I never got hooked on GL after "Rebirth."

Y, Ex Machina and Invincible, I buy only in trades.

I'll likely stick with the Legion, LSH31 and JSA for as long as I continue to buy comics, and I'll check out the "next big crisis in the DC universe." I may buy whatever bare-bones requirements are necessary to keep relatively informed about the DC Universe.

But if Countdown is indicative of things to come in comics, I may start reading Dickens or Chaucer in my spare time -- or volunteering at a soup kitchen.

I think the overall quality from DC, in terms of the events they choose to high-profile, such as Countdown and its crossovers and Amazon's Attack, has dropped off significantly in the last half of 2007.

It pleases me that their sales suffer for it.

I hope the quality, and likewise the sales, pick up in 2008.

What is unfortunate is that many of the books they produce that are excellent, such as Booster Gold, Shadowpact and Blue Beetle are not doing so well. GL remains high-ranked, as it should, because its excellent. Ditto for Batman and Detective Comics.

But I believe one of the main problems that DC has, and comics in general, are their marketing, and in two ways: (1) marketing to comic book readers and (2) marketing to non-comic book readers. They are failing at both. Everything they do these days falls under 'cringe-worthy' to me. I mean this by 'marketing' in the purest sense (adds, where DC comics are being marketed, getting people to check out comics), but also the very sense that the product themselves should be easily marketable.

Never-ending events making it more complex to understand what’s happening unless you’re part of the ‘inside’ group of long-time comic book readers with previous knowledge of DC continuity are a by-product of the very much still alive speculative market. And like all speculative markets, it can do well, or it can turn horribly. Just about 85% of all comics are very hard to penetrate when you open up a random issue off the shelves. This does not mean an entire six panels must be dedicated to a recap, but there should be the sense that if this is your first time reading this comic book, then an introductory process should be occurring for you within the first few pages—even if you’re in the 4th, 5th, 9th, 101st part of a multi-part story.

Too much credence is given by DC and Marvel to please the message boards and internet-based news community with “shock” and “outrage”, when the internet community is only a small, small portion of the much larger readership. Real marketing is not a weekly blog column on newsarama, but making an active attempt to find a portion of the population not reading comic books and find a way to get them product they will want. EDE had a great example of how the Marvel Family could capture the same young audience that might be exposed to Harry Potter books. The same could be applied to other DC properties, and not Rex the Wonder Dog—but Batman, Superman, Flash, etc.

Delays are beyond ridiculous. Publishers and fans are far too generous. Pray I somehow never become a billionaire and buy DC or Marvel. My wrath for delays would make the Robber Barons of the 19th Century giggle with delight.

Honestly, the products themselves are pretty damn hard to market. The following things (1) served only to alienate long-term comic book fans and (2) did nothing at all to bring in new comic book fans:
• Wonder Woman relaunch with numerous, never-ending delays
• Wally apparently gone, Bart as Flash for 12 issues, Bart killed
• Hawkgirl replaces Hawkman as lead feature
• Complete Aquaman relaunch, new writer ten issues later takes book in campier direction
• There are, of course, other examples.

Since I was a kid, I’ve heard the saying “Comics are for Adults”. In fact, the entire 1980’s & 1990’s seemed to be driving that point home. Latest issue of CGB, comics are for adults, Vertigo books on the market, comics are for adults, Frank Miller calls Wizard the devil’s bible, comics are for adults. OK. Comics are for adults too. Then why the hell do these comic book companies run the comic book division like a bunch of damn kids? Grow up and be smart and run your companies the right way--*AND* maintain the artistic integrity of each and every property *all* the time.

Does it seem like a lot? Its not. All of it is easily fixable and we can see it turn around.

Something else else I posted elsewhere - Sales Now And Then: Top 100 November 1997 vs. Top 100 November 2007 - http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=4974594&postcount=34 (can't repost here because HTML isn't allowed).

I'm surprised the numbers haven't changed more in the past decade - would have expected a bigger overall decline.

I agree with everything Cobalt said in his latest post.

I disagree a bit about quality BUT I think a major reason a book may be sufferring in quality is due to editors. The last two to three years I've just seen tons of editorial mistakes.

Is it the editors fault? Do they need to hire more editors? Yes.

They keep complaining about how they lost the children in this. Comics are too expensive! They are publishing more titles than ever before and charging more than ever before.

Agree about the price. At $3 a pop, kids won't be wasting their money on expensive comics.

Comics are too expensive AND they are way too complicated too. My brain hurts after reading 52 and Countdown. There are way too many cheesy characters getting way to much screen time doing not that much which would be really... interesting in some way.

I don't see that nowadays kids which are getting pampered by better and better cartoons and vodeo games would spend so much money on an issue which they hardyl can understand whats going on in and in which, due to endless amounts of characters, nothing big is ever happening...

I totally agree with Cobalt Kid that they should finally start putting recaps at the beginning. Peter David does it with X-Factor, and it's a really good feature which makes this pleasant book even more pleasant...

For everyone's b!tc#ing about ULTIMATES 3 #1 and the last chapter of Spidey OMD, Joe Q's gotta be laughing all the way to the bank.

They were 1 and 2 in sales rank...

Didn't read Ultimates, but I quit Spiderman immediately after the OMD conclusion. So I helped it become number two, but I will not support the book any further... and I read ASM since JMS came onboard in 2001...

I wonder where Spidey sales are going to be in 4 months? Slott & McNiven on Spidey is an easy sell though.

I HOPE people drop Spidey in droves to teach Marvel a lesson. Ofcourse I hoped that when Bendis took over Avengers and look where that got me.

1997 was long enough after the speculators' boom of the early 90s, and the industry was climbing out of the post-boom glut. It's possible it climbed a bit higher before starting to decline; I don't know. But the numbers do suggest a reasonably stable level of some sort, amazingly enough. Both 2007 and 1997 were far, far lower than the artificial high of 1992ish, but would have been leaps and bounds better than 1995ish.

I tend to get frustrated with the perpetual notion of targeting kids - TV, film, music and video game execs know what kids like; comic book execs never have; each of theri efforts come off like talking-down, not being in step with youth culture.

The comic book biz as-is doesn't have the wherewithall to reach kids - at least the comic book biz we all follow. But the manga biz is reaching kids, and in huge numbers; therin lies the future (The manga field is also more adept at sustaining quality and story integrity, owing largely to the strength of the Japanese market).

All the Countdowns and Crises and Civil Wars and what-not are not going to pump up our niche. Universes and continuity (or in DC's case, "Continuity") are less important than good stories and stable creative teams; ongoing series need to be consistent with themselves.

A multitude of creative teams attempting to operate under the same umbrella (universe) need a central autocrat (Stan Lee or Geoprge Lucas or a similar type; a visionary with clear vision and storytelling ability him/herself). Creative peopel going off in every direction and tearing down weach others' sand castles does no one any good. The old axiom "too many cooks" applies here.

Since the 60s, a cohesive universe a la Stan Lee has been the Holy Grail; it's the conventional wisdom. It worked under a one-writer vision; it functioned under an autocrat, but at the expense of creativity (Shooter at Marvel's helm). Universes are obsolete, I would suggest, except for those operating under a single cohesive vision of a creator who is up to the job; even then, 2-to-5 series universes would function better than 20-40 series ones.

I agree completely with Kent. The whole shared universe/obsession with continuity thing is what has destroyed the industry more than anything. Look at how much more successful comic properties have been in other media than the comics themselves have. If people had to watch fifteen different shows in order to follow the plot of Smallville, no one would watch it.

DC basically had close to the right idea with the "All-Star" line, however badly it's been botched in execution.

Wouldn't it be great if DC ditched the unification of it's titles? Instead of stories reaching every book, they are confined to the boundaries of their writers.

If it were up to me DC would launch a whole slew of titles in something closer to the format (not necessarily the style) of manga, basically with relaunches/new versions of their major properties and with each series running largely independently of one another. Maybe eventually there would be crossovers, but not the kind of obsessive shared universe that we have in mainstream comics these days.

I actually think Busiek's basic take on Aquaman would've been great for something like that.

I'm all for a shared universe. But I don't mind other versions outside of that.

The problem is the top selling titles are within the shared universe. The Ultimates and Ultimate Spider-Man are really the only titles that sell that are not part of the Marvel main universe.

The direct market is basically for the shared universe. Right now it's only the hardcore fans buying comics. The fans that are willing to buy $3 comics from a comic store. Those fans for the most part want their comics...the shared universes.

I agree with you guys about manga style. Instead of a series I think comics should be mini/maxi-series'. Have different imprints and lines,etc. We've seen them try it actually and it rarely works. Self-contained stories in their own universe, etc.

Another reason that is though? Marvel and DC want to publish hundreds of titles a month. About 10% of those characters actually sell enough to consistently be published. Many of the titles being publish NEED to be published in the shared universe or they won't survive.

In other words we will get about 30 different Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Wolverine minis/maxis and that's about it.

Another reason Marvel/DC have so many titles? It gives the pros a job. I would prefer less titles, higher quality each maxi/mini treated as a major production like a film.

A good example of this is Marvel's Dark Tower. I just read the whole thing the last two days. It was an amazing story and art. No way Jae Lee can produce that on a normal schedule. It felt like an event.

Another problem is after a few years of different titles in different universes...sequels not even being in the same universe...well people will really be confused with who is who.

See the paradox is that the hardcore fans want the shared universe stuff, but it has little appeal to anyone outside the hardcore fans. So comics end up stuck as a niche market because they can't do anything to try to reach the more general market without risking alienating those hardcore fans.

I actually think that a lot of titles that currently don't sell too well in the direct market have the potential to flourish if they can actually change who they're marketing it too. Hawkman/Hawkgirl might not sell all that well as a mainstream super-hero comic, but re-tool it as the story of a beautiful alien teenager who dreams she is the re-incarnation of an ancient Earth princess, and comes to Earth to search for the re-incarnation of her prince (and fight crime along the way), and you've got something that could potentially sell to the whole teenage girl manga-market in a way that it never has to the "mainstream" comic fan.