anyone else pick this up or are you all waiting for the TPB?
spoilers below...sorta
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i liked it so far, why do i feel glee when heroes i don't like get the smack down?

Because you're human.

I like this first issue alot. Besides the art it is a good story. I like that Aquaman got some story time and it was good to see the family.

Judging from the caption for last month it seems like everyone's gonna get some of that treatment. (wasn't that the formula for "Challenge of the Superfriends"? They all get beaten, escape some kind of imprisonment, then rally and beat the bad guys at the end)

hmmmm do you think we'll see apache chief, samurai and black vulcan?

i was thinking about teh art and i really like it, it is very realistic but dosn't follow the visual styles of tv or film (bluring out things that move fast or are in the background...i dont think human vision is that limited so i dont think its right to limit a medium not limited by the camera (technology).)

I liked the art... especailly the Flash!! (What, no one's surprised?? ) And the story definitely interests me. Yay for Len Snart!!

I do have a question though -- this is an Elseworld, right? Or...am I crazy? Well, I suppose the two aren't mutally exclusive but y'all get me.

Is it me or has DC stopped labelling these alternate continuity stories elseworlds? No EW on New Frontier, Batman Dark Detective, and now Justice.

As for the product, it was good. I'm not much of an Alex Ross fan. I think I'll wait for the trades or inevitable hardcover. The 2 year shipping schedule is a little much too.

2 year shipping schedule? was? er....

12 issues shipping bimonthy = 2 year shipping schedule

Hopefully neither of the artists have any problems, those painted pages look like they are very labour intense.

Good point. And of course the "All-Star..." doesn't sport it either. Maybe they decided that the Elseworlds were being treated like second-class citizens in people's minds.

Or maybe rather than use alternate stories that veer off the beaten track, they realized that their regular continuity had gotten so off-track and seems like an "Elseworlds" that series like the "All-Star" line, "New Frontier" and "Justice" are actually closer to what "the real DC" is.

ok that's not so bad. hopefully they don't have trouble meeting their bi monthly deadlines. i didn't think it merited 12 issues from the first issue. oh well hope it's good. seemed more like a four or six issue-er...the nail was three issues(?) and that seemed rushed.

Well, they have to capture all the members of the JLA -- that's seven issues at least, right?? Then we need a plot and climax and crud like that too... I think it'll be cool.

Except the bad guys aren't necessarily as bad as they seem. Given the nature of their dreams, and the complete failure the JLA is in saving the world, it makes sense for them to use this tactic. Of course, we're assuming that the dreams are valid.

For me, finding an Elseworlds story was a huge draw...especially for trades. It meant that I could pick up a complete story with no heavy background or continuity problems.

It would be nice if they started labelling them again as such....just to know what is, or isn't part of the continuity.

Jamie

i like elseworlds too...good ones are all about the story, and the retain the sense of the character without all the drama mama

i used to be a continuity whore but now i just want a good story.

I like Elseworlds label too... I have a NEED to know what's IN continuity and what's NOT.

/anal

But continuity itself can be messy (I read the friggin' X-Men... ><) but, yeah. In vs. out. Very important to me.

The thing about this format that bugs me is that if they spotlight a character each ish, we won't actually get to see the team together til near the end of the series.

Sounds like another book a lot of folks on this board have been reading eh?

Hmm, I just assumed the dreams were created by Luthor to manipulate the other villains. It hadn't even occurred to me that they could have been real... I guess we'll find out in about 20 or 22 months (sigh).


Yeah, it really follows the format of the old Silver Age stories Ross is wild about. Except in those days, each chapter focusing on an individual member would have only been about 12 pages, and the whole story would have wrapped up in one comic.

As much as I liked the first issue, the idea of waiting 2 years to read the end really depresses me. I wish he had waited until he'd finished more of them before releasing the first issue, so they could have put them out monthly...

As for continuity, I tend to be a little more easygoing about it these days, since out of necessity, things within continuity have to constantly adjust themselves in a subtle way, anyway. Things like, we know Fantastic Four takes place present day, and every once in a while they reference the actual year, but Franklin has stayed the same age for decades, and all four members of the Beatles attended their wedding... Comics, both Marvel and DC, are chock-full of that stuff. Getting too hung up on it will ruin the simple pleasure of enjoying a fun story (for me, at least).

i take it you mean the current lsh.

maybe i will wait for the hardcover this seems like it would be a better read in its entirety...if i can hold out.

This, like "New Frontier" is enough of a stand-alone story that I don't need any kind of continuity points (silver age DC continuity is a jigsaw at this point anyway). This is clearly a snapshot of the iconic JLA from Ross' rose-colored youth.

Against every ounce of good judgement I could have ever claimed to have, I just watched the first episode of the Challenge of the Superfriends DVD (the series that features the Legion of Doom), and in it, Luthor uses a dream-manipulator machine against the heroes. So, now I'm almost positive he created the dreams to manipulate the other villains in 'Justice'.

However, I realize that by having watched an episode of Superfriends deliberately, I have forever thrown the validity of any opinion I might have into question. I offer no defense.

noooo

i love the challenge of the super friend is own the dvd.

the legion of doom clown the super friends regularly. "super fool" "blunder woman"

and its funny that the legion of doom is always winning until the last five minutes then for some inexpilicable reason the super friends turn things around and win.

ahh memories of weekday afternoons. Just when things looked darkest, something would happen and the Superfriends theme would start and all of a sudden good guys win.

and they had no pesky interfering kids and a stupid mutt wearing a cape to hold them back...

right on.

While on the subject of the 1973 Superfriends, i was curious as to how Wonder Woman was picked as a main character, considering (pre-CRISIS, ZERO HOUR) she was powerless for a few years. When did her powers return?

It looks like Wonder Woman regained her powers in Wonder Woman #204, cover dated January-February 1973.

Here's another bit of trivia: Wonder Woman also appeared in an episode of the "Brady Kids" - was that her first appearance as a cartoon character or did the Super Friends do it first?

Technically, that's a Golden Age format. It was first used in the old JSA stories.

By the time of the JLA, the heroes were teaming in groups of two or three in individual chapters, though that was also pioneered in the JSA series.

what's with captain marvel and plastic man being in the big group spread. where are my elongated man and ZATANNA?!?!?!?!?!?!?

i detest plastic man.....

Couldn't agree more!!! That's exactly why I'm not buying Justice and very rarely buy any of Ross' vanity projects.

He always claims to be telling a forgotten story from the great Silver Age that he grew up with - but its always his own weird skewed version of the Silver Age. He just can't deal with the fact that Plastic Man and Captain Marvel were never in the JLA back then! So he dumps the characters who were members - Firestorm, Elongated Man, Zatanna (and usually Red Tornado) and pretends like those two were. So annoys me!

And it must confuse the Hell out of newer readers who aren't sure of who actually was a member back then. No wonder the annoying Plastic Man turns up on so many lists of people's Big 7 JLA members over on the DC Boards. They think he has history with the team when all he did was hang around for a few annoying months during the Morrison run. Thank God for Kyle Baker because the continued success of that series is our best hope of never seeing Plastic Man on the team again!

I used to hate Plastic Man, until I read the Archives and discovered the genius of Jack Cole. However...I have to completely agree that although he may be "one of the greatest heroes of all time" (which seems to be Ross' reasoning for including him and Cap Marvel), he belongs nowhere near the JLA, or even the DCU in general. You might as well let Alfred E. Newman join the JLA.

Cole's creation lives in a world with its own set of rules, and its own type of reality...it doesn't mix with the kind of world the other characters live in. It's not a matter of one being better than the other; they are just fundamentally different. Like combining Caddyshack and Schindler's List -- you may like both movies, but if you combine them into one movie, you get guaranteed unwatchable junk.

The same goes for Eisner's 'the Spirit'...one of my favorite comics of all time. His world just works differently... DC's idea to do a new Spirit series is kind of unsettling... DC's idea to set the Spirit in the modern day DCU is a calamity of biblical proportions.

Well, I know the history of the team and love both Plastic Man and Captain Marvel in the League.

To me, it's a dream come true. I think they both can work given the right writers and artists.

I guess we really need to define the Silver Age because the only one you mention being left out that I would agree was a member during what I consider the SA (just barely) would be Red Tornado. The others all came much later.

Somewhere around here, there was a thread (by Cobie I think) that did a great job of defining the various ages in comics. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.

When was Plastic Man introduced in the DCU. He was a character that National/DC acquired, right? Isn't the prevailing lore that the writers/editors of Flash didn't know that Plastic Man had been acquired or they would have just reused the name for Ralph as they did for Barry, Hal, Ray and Katar?

Here's the thread I was thinking about.

Cobie\'s Comic Book Ages thread

Some great links in it that basically define the Silver Age as ending around 1970-1972, which is considered the start of the Bronze Age.

i don't care about ages in this case personally. i just like the line up from the early 80's before justice league detroit. that curt swan and george perez drew. captain marvel can come along too but not at the expense of staples like zatanna and elongated man. this will always be the greatest line up to me, i think of it as the "classic" jla or even the "golden age" jla. the satelite era!!! the jla that inspired squadron supreme and numerous t-shirts.

i still detest plastic man.

I think the problem for me is that you have to dilute Plastic Man down to almost nothing in order to use him in a mainstream DCU book like JLA.

For me, it's like when they were talking about making the next Superman movie with a Superman who didn't wear a costume or fly or any of that -- what's the point? Make a different movie, and call it something else. If you take Plastic Man out of his world, he loses too much, imo.

Vee - I agree that Firestorm, Zatanna, etc weren't Silver Age members. I think I was just using the term lazily to refer to the pre-Martian invasion 'Satellite era' team that this story seems to be about.

Out of interest though, why do you consider Red Tornado a Silver Age member and not Elongated Man, when they joined an issue apart, and now that I think about it - Elongated Man joined first?

P.S. I don't detest Plastic Man. Jack Cole and even the much-maligned Kyle Baker have told some great stories with him.

But what I do *DETEST* with a capital D for "Damn anyone who tries it!" is any retconning or revising of the JLofA's history! I hate buying a comic about the Satellite-era JLofA (the first comic I ever read and the first comic I ever collected and so it occupies a special place in my comic-lover's heart) and seeing characters who weren't on it inexplicably being treated like members. I even feel my blood pressure rising just at the sight of Black Canary's leggings not matching the colour they were back then. For someone who knows the JLofA as well as I do these little, and in some cases big, continuity changes are just extremely frustrating.

As Legion-lovers just imagine what it would be like if Ross decided to tell a story about the Adventure-era Legion but included Robin and Wildfire on the team with no explanation and had Phantom Girl in a black costume. Sure, he might like the changes he's made but as fans who want to read a story about the team as it was it would be very frustrating for us!

i confess to everyone in this thread that i have little experience with plastic man beyond cartoons, the recent jla, and the old all star squadron comics.

detestable eh

OK, here's how it stands. CRISIS mucked up a lot of the League's back-history by eliminating Superman, Batman and Wonder Wonder Woman from continuity. This means that WW's "De-powering" during the late 60's isnt considered canonical, which means her twelve trials to regain JLA membership aren't applicable any more, either.

The League's origins are, apparently, in as much a mess as the Legion's. So any stories involving the League before CRISIS had to undergo a drastic change afterwards. Black Canary did not have a career on Earth-2, but her daughter (the current Canary) does. Furthermore, she replaced WW as the token babe of the League in its early years.

IMHO, the League needs to have a chronology chart drawn up so that fans can be advised as to which stories happened and which stories didnt.

I'm assuming that the Detroit League newcomers (Vixen, Steel, Vibe and Gypsy) aren't considered members in the current timeline. Speaking of which, i suppose the events of ZERO HOUR have de-stabilised the membership origins even more. Their first mission is not (and apparently never was) to combat the alien forces of Appellax as it was in the very beginning (that is, in the old multiple-Earth universe).

I guess with another CRISIS on the way, more retroactive casualties are to be expected.

Brian

Basically all the JLA stories can be assumed to have happened as told or slighly altered except the multiple earth crossovers and where wonder woman was central to the plot ie Dinah could not be substituted.

Brian the chronology you describe exists in two volumes.


JLA Year 1 by Waid and Kitson shows the origin of Black Canary and her relationship with her mother the Golden age Black Canary of the JSA.

JLA Incarnations miniseries picks it up from there.

The JLA incarnations miniseries establishes that:
1) Golden age Hawks joined the League to liase between the JSA and JLA (replacing Katar and Shay who didn't exist yet)
2) Batman and Superman joined the league later in the silver age. (WW did not because she did not appear until the Legends miniseries which was 6 years ago to the characters)
3) The league broke up because the big 7 didn't have enough time to commit to the league.
4) Shows how the satellite was destroyed in current continuity.
5) JLDetroit happened and was disbanded by anti-hero sentiment in Legends.
6) JLI formed and were goofy.
7) The big 7 got back together.

I heard of the JLA: Year One mini-series, Tamper Lad, and how, interestingly enough, Barry Kitson (current artist on the current Legion title) did the artwork.

Questions: Did the Atom join the JLA post-CRISIS?
Or Red Tornado, Zatanna?

Mark Waid wrote so JLA:Y1 was another in their long line of collaborations.

Atom and Zatanna for sure. They play a big part in last year's identity crisis (I think I told you on another thread about Jean and Sue Dibny).

Red Tornado's status was established in JLA/JSA Secret Files where he says that he had been part of both the JLA and JSA in the silver age but declines to rejoin either team as he was mentoring Young Justice at the time.

So much to catch up on....Thanks for the info, TL!

It's okay... I've heard reports of many people going on to lead productive and long lives, even without liking Plastic Man. Still... if you start to feel chest pains, take a couple asprin and get hold of an Archive Edition quick.

I always found it vaguely insulting that their solution was just to substitute Canary..."Well, she's a woman -- just as good! Problem solved!" It always made me wonder whatever happened to Black Canary's invisible jet, and how come she never uses her super strength anymore, etc., etc.

Yeah the Canary retcon kinda sucked but DC's silver age female roster is quite sparse. I liked the New Frontier origin of the JLA as the generational story of a merged earth much better but what can you do.

Typo!!!! Wonder Woman had the invisible jet and magic lasso - Canary had the sonic cry

Don't worry, Southtown Kid, i've made boo-boos like that myself

ok can someone briefly explain the black canary retcon please. shes one of my fav league characters...

So back when Justice League of America was around on earth 1, Wonder Woman was a founder. When crisis ended WW didn't exist until the Legends mini series and Perez's WW vol 2 the next year (1987) So all previous WW continuity was erased.

However the JL editors decided to keep their continuity, so they needed to replace WW in all the silver age stories. That made Canary a JLA founder continuity saved but with variations in the stories due to the large differences in power between WW and BC.

So, really in a way, Canary's loss of power due to her rape crisis can be construed as mirroring Diana's loss of power (but without the harrowing after-effects of the violation). Who took her place as the sole distaff Leaguer while she recuperated? Hawkgirl? Zatanna?

oh i got that part. but, she is not herself in her daughters body anymore? not a ww 2 hero or what...

The current Canary is the daughter of the first. She was raised surrounded by her mom's JSA colleagues. Upon reaching adulthood, she decided to adopt her mom's identity and became a founding member of the JLA.

The mother's-memories-in-daughter's-body thing disappeared with the Crisis.

Black Canary is one of very few characters whose origin was actually simplified by the Crisis.

So Black Canary I was Wonder Woman's post-CRISIS replacement in the Justice Society?

Roy Thomas created a new character the Golden Age Fury mother of Lyta Trevor to replace Wonder Woman. (We're still waiting for Geoff Johns to fix this one. Maybe after infinite crisis.)

But when John Byrne wrote Wonder Woman in the nineties he wrote a story where Hypolyta WW's mother travelled back in time and became World War 2 Wonder WOman.

Black Canary I was already in the JSA.

WW's replacement in the JSA was either Fury I, Miss America or Hippolyta, depending on which retcon you believe.

Black Canary II replaced WW in the JLA.

Soooo confusing....

Think i'll have another drink, thanks LOL

<<<Is it me or has DC stopped labelling these alternate continuity stories elseworlds? No EW on New Frontier, Batman Dark Detective, and now Justice.>>>

A thought occured to me...the kind that is inspired rom reading comics since before the CRISIS.
The kind that grows from that deeply planted seed during the CRISIS where one thinks "..end of the Multiverse? Never to be seen again? We'll see, we shall see" For which you read from that moment on looking for the subtle clues that prove to yourself "Its comin baaaack"," see?!?!".
And in that moment it occurs to me that this series will end AFTER yet another CRISIS.

Could it be that EARTH-One has been/will be making it's subtle return?


<<....that series like the "All-Star" line, "New Frontier" and "Justice" are actually closer to what "the real DC" is.>>

We shall see!!!

And hey, if that is the case that "Frontier" set up a past for "Justice" that sets the tone for an "Earth-1".....

very cool!

If anything it is just a happy little thought that was inspired from reading a happy little book.

Hehe, probably because I'm relying on thirty plus year old memories. You'll note I said "just barely" because I wasn't certain if RT actually made it in during that period though he was around. I recall him in some stories from back then but it could very well be from the annual JLA/JSA crossovers. If EL joined before RT then both would fall into the Bronze Age.

I would think that the logical dividing line between Silver & Bronze for the JLA would probably be the move to the satelitte HQ and/or Black Canary's move from Earth 2 to Earth

I understand this completely. I've seen the explanations about WW and BC and also about Hyppolita and BC2 and it drives me crazy. And they say Legion continuity is convoluted?

I agree about this, but I don't see this series as a flashback, but as an imaginary story or as they are called today, an elseworld. I think that when one does an in continuity story or a fashback, they better do their homework and present things in proper context.

Actually, I need to disagree about this point too. Sorry. I see this not as a retcon as its not being adopted as official continuity. Also, I think if someone were to do a mini-series set in the Adventure-Era Legion that shows the team going back into time to recruit Wonder Girl (young Diana, not Donna) or Aquaboy or even Robin, I'd be cheering every step of the way.

Is DC still doing Elseworld stories or possible Hyper-Time plot-lines? I'd like to think a mere speck of previous Legion history could be salvaged. If the younger generation are nonplussed by the references of a bygone age, then i say let them refer to the Legion Archives for answers - they are still classics!

thanks everyone for the black canary update. i dont remember this story being told...

actually i always thought it was a little icky that she was in her daughters body...i guess it was never her daughters body but...

also that writes should have made a bigger deal out of her 50 years of expwerience instead she was often treated as the new kid in the stelite jla. i guess next to wonder woman who is 2000 years old she would be.

COOL! (well, except for the Robin part...)

I believe they haven't given up on Elseworld stories yet though they have dropped that label.

"Hypertime" is a term no longer being used in the DCU either per Dan DiDio, so these are just gool ol' "imaginary stories".

Who is Dan Didio and why did he do such a drastic move to erase Hypertime?

Dan Didio is the VP and Executive Editor for the DC Universe. He is directly under Paul Levitz (publisher) on the org-chart.

It's not certain why he said that but the key points seem to be hypertime was rarely used and poorly understood.

Some of us hope that this means that we'll be getting formal acknowledgement of a multiverse. The loss of "Elseworlds" label would be consistent with this because in the old days comics were never labeled as "Earth-2" or "Earth-S" or Animated Superfriends tie-in when they were published.

I just read #1. I have no problem with it. I like Elseworlds and I believe anything goes with them. Trust me rather all the Silver Age fanboy Ross stuff be an elseworld.

I enjoyed it. Seems a bit dark. Lots of death. But interesting. Just for the art it is amazing.