Okay, so I lost touch with the postboot continuity about half way through the team 20 thingy. It's been a while. But lo! thru the magic of Bittorrent I have downloaded scans of the entire postboot, from Zero Hour to Legion #38. And I have read them all. In two days. My mind has turned to mush. (reading 10 years' worth of comics, even good ones do that to you!)And yes, I have caught myself saying 'grife'in real life once or twice. eek!

The first half was familiar to me. (have all those first half comics upstairs, haven't read them much recently but I remember them well, the second half less so.) And I actually found the process of reading it all quite sad. It started off with such promise. How did it go wrong?

These observations are not very original I think-I doubt I'm alone in most of them!

1. No Matter Eater Lad or Bouncing Boy. I'm sorry but imo, if it doesn't have *all* the Adventure era members, it's not the Legion. That's the silver age purist in me coming out I am afraid! Although Chuck worked out very well as a supporting character in the end. Tenzil was utterly wasted as the rarely appearing comic relief chef though. He was sooo cool in the SW6 Legion I remember I was really disappointed that he wasn't a full fledged Legionnaire at the time! A waste. And used with imagination *no* power is useless.

2. No Sun Boy. One of the classic Legionnaires and he was just...ignored for no good reason. I don't understand for the life of me why. He was never one of my big favourites but it's not the Legion without him as far as I can understand.

3.Leviathan was killed off way way too early. If he had been killed off after 10 years it wouldn't have been so bad but he was hardly there a year or so! And he was a great character. He had more personality in the brief time he was in the postboot than he had in the entire 30 something years preboot! Killing him off was totally unecessary and a colossal (ha) waste.

4. Getting rid of Andromeda really quickly. She was in one story and then she was a rarely seen space nun thereafter. When I think of what a great character Laurel was in the TMK and SW6 legions, it's just sad. Another vast, yawning waste. Why get rid of her for no good reason? It's mystifying.

5. Lori Morning (who I actually liked and thought was used well in a couple of stories!) who should have been a minor supporting character was allowed to turn into a major central character. And when classic Legionnaires like Sun Boy and Projectra were in limbo! Gah!

6. Oh yeah, Projectra as a snake. Whose sprocking bright idea was that? That will surely go down as The Worst Legion Plot Twist Ever In The History Of Everything. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Levitz and the Bierbuams had developed Jeckie into a wonderful character and I was really keen to discover more of the beautiful spiritual culture of Orando that we had only had tantalising glimpses of. And what did we get? A lame satire on the British royal family with cartoon racoons. A real improvement I don't think. *vomits in disgust*

7. Characters kept getting killed and no one was that upset. We had memorial services and a few token panels of characters crying but that was it. No one grieved the way real people do. So much death in such a short time would surely have had more of a profound psycological effect than that. And Lori seeing her father killed before her eyes and then not being upset at all and not even showing any emotion about it whatsoever? Huh?

8. As has been said before, the team 20 thing went on far too long. Should have been three issues at the most. Seemed to be an excuse to promote the LSH with 102 really mediocre guest appearances in other titles and at least two 'let's watch Batman Superman and Wonder Woman stand around stoically while the world ends' this year's rip off of crisis big dull summer event. Yawn.

Oooh and has anyone else read that Sovereign 7 special with Imra in it? I was curious to see how Chris Claremont would use a Legionnaire as an X men reader from way back and wow, if that wasn't the most weird sprawling surrealy bad story that I've read in my life! (and Imra doesn't say 'critter' Chris Claremont characters say that. Imra doesn't. oh no the speech bubbles are taking over the universe! Someone give that man an editor. Now!)

9. Tinya being half-carggite? Wha? Okay so they needed to get a clever way of bringing her back to life. Maybe they shouldn't have killed her off in the first place. Bah shock tactics. (see also killing off Ice in JLA-oooo who was responsible for that..I don't know could it be....MARK WAID??????) Killing beloved characters off for cheap shock effect is lame mmmkay?

There's no reason for Tinya to be half-Carggite. Luornu is the Carggite Legionnaire and there's already three of her. Don't need any more. Making her half Carggite is just needless convolution and like the Legion needs any more of that?

10.I personally thought the endless heavy handed 'racism is bad kids' allegorical stories was a bit much. I read comics to be entertained not to be lectured at. And I am a politically left wing lifelong anti prejudice type person. They were preaching to the choir! But it was patronising. Really patronising. Give me entertaining stories not politically correct propaganda disguised as a story! Bah. Yes 'White Triangle story' I am looking at you. Yes I know racism is bad. I didn't need to see Tinya Wazzo crispy fried to know that. Thankyou.

11. Element Lad. Wasted. He was such a great character preboot, the whole thing about being the last survivor and his pain over that and his spiritual journey and all that was so beautiful and they turned him into a simpering cipher who became a meglomaniac super villain who then died. Oo-kay. And that stupid 'turning into metals' thing just needlessly replicated Ferro's power so destroying Jan's uniquness. Why?? Again, as with most of these baffling bad creative decisions there is no reason for it.

12. Emerald Violet. Killed Gim, depowered Dirk (who should have been a Legionnaire!)messed up Jan. Would have been a decent story if it had never did any of these things. And what was the point of Magno? He's there five minutes and loses his power and is therefore hardly seen again. Yes there was one very good moving story in which he returned home to Braal and missed his powers (and I actually cried when I read it the first time!) but really...what was the point of him??

13. Nura and Mysa not sisters? Again For no good sprocking reason! Yeah I'm just a Legion Luddite but why change these beloved characters in such vast fundamental ways for no good reason??

14. Kinetix, a character with great approval was good for maybe 3 issues and then she fell into a great molasses like quicksand sludge of 'we don't know what to do with her' syndrome. Oh look first she's depowered, now she's powered now she's catatonic now she's changed her costume for the 67th time this issue. Waste. Complete waste.

15. Thought the DNA issues which were mostly new to me were mostly samey, boring and replete with hideous amounts of star trek-style technobabble. One impersonal collective-style gestalt 'villain' was fine. But it was the only idea they seemed to have. Again and again and again and again...the only good arc in the whole series was 'Dream Crime' that was clever. But the rest of it was just unreadable sludge that was too busy congratulating itself on how clever and authentically science fictiony it was and forgetting to entertain the flipping reader! (well me anyway!)

Oh yeah and what was the point of killing of Mcauley, a great supporting character so we could have a dreary story arc starring a Batman villain. Yawn. If I wanted Batman villains I'd read a Batman book. I've always found Bats and his villains boring. I'm a Legion fan. If it's not Silver Age Superman, I want the 20th century kept out of it. Again, too much keeness to kill good characters off. Once they are gone, they are gone! (Tinya and Garth notwithstanding) Waste, Waste, Waste.


Aand if this seems overly negative, I actually liked the postboot a lot. (and I appear to be one of the few people who actually quite liked Lori Morning! ) It just irks me that it could have been so much better!

Sorry to moan so much for so long.

Projectra as a snake.....gaaaah.

Jillikers! I think you've the nail on the head, there, I.D.!

A lot of interesting points there, Drura. I agree with some of them and not with others.

I think the whole point of doing a reboot or reimagining of something is to do it differently. If it's exactly the same, then what's the point in re-doing it? We have back issues for that.

For that reason, I have no problem with Chuck as a non-powered supporting character, Tenz as a chef or the absence of Sun Boy. Even Andromeda becoming a nun made a certain sense to me, considering how badly she wanted to repent of her earlier attitudes and actions. Some of the postboot changes worked, others didn't. But I think the various creative teams deserve some credit for taking chances.

Your post at least demonstrates that, no matter what any new creative team does with respect to reinventing the Legion, they are never going to please everyone.

Oh yeah, I forgot-

Why introduce the Subs and then have them make a brief cameo appearance in one more issue and then....nothing! If they weren't going to do anything with them then why show them in the first place? I was looking forward to seeing them again..and I never did.

I hated that Ferro was from the 20th century. I hated that he had a totally different personality from the sw6 Ferro who we never got to see enough of, I particularly hated that in this version his mother rejected him and his brother and didn't care about them. In the postboot she loved them despite everyone wanting them to be put in an institution, ostracised etc. Suddenly having her as the selfish bitch who hates her deformed children was unimaginative and obvious, not to mention a travesty.

I'll probably think of other things presently-

What about the good things?

Triad-Luornu was mostly ignored preboot after the silver age. Here, she was one of the most prominent Legionnaires. And she got the best character development she's ever had. I liked the tri personality thing (not really a postboot invention as it had been developed by the Bierbaums and there had been hints of it as far back as that LSH annual where they fought Computo..as ever can't remember the issue number!)

I do think however, that that has been taken as far as it can be taken. It actually might be nice to see her bodies with all the same personality again. Every aspect of the tri personality has been explored. I can't think of anything else that could be done with it.

I don't know why purple and orange didn't merge while Neutral was possessed by Computo, to give them more time to survive without her. It had already been established that two of her could merge in the White Triangle story. Why didn't anyone remember that?

another bad thing-After Tinya came back from the dead, she seemed to lose all the great qualities she had before. She lost all her fire and spirit (ha) and became a whiny clingy..annoying thing. Okay so she'd come back from the dead so some trauma was to be expected. Still another example of wasting characters through crash bang wallop uneeded dramatic plot twists.

Having thought about it-that was the whole problem, the characters went through dramatic changes too often, too quickly. I actually wanted to see you know, some stories in which they go on missions, use their powers and fight villains. Instead we got this constant soap opera in which character x was dying/changing powers/turning into a 9 foot rock thing/becoming a nun. Too fast. What was wrong with maintaining the status quo for a while?

Such changes have always been a part of Legion history. But not that often! Yes, they killed characters off and had them leave etc. but they didn't do it Every Sprocking Issue! Agh.

And what was the point of giving Ayla the anti gravity powers and then losing them a couple of issues later? If you weren't going to do anything with them then don't introduce them in the first place! Gah. Same thing as with the Subs.

And again, this is coming from someone who quite liked the whole postboot at the time, with reservations. I can only hope that they have learned the lessons from it this time around!

-glad to get that out of my system

Well, I think that was the whole problem with the reboot: it wasn't done differently enough to what had gone before. I'm not sure how the writers expected this version of the legion to stand on its own when it was full of endless re-treads of the last version of the legion: garth loses his arm...again! The fatal five meet each other during a suneater crisis...again!

And the changes that were made by the writers were often used as a means to surprise long-time legion readers aka. you thought Jeckie was going to be a platinum blonde princess?...surprise! she's a snake.

And that's why Legion Lost was so much better than all the reboot story-lines that pre-ceded it, it did things with the legion that had never been done with any other version. And notice that DnA's legion tanked when they began retreading ie. "foundations"

Really, I'm not surprised the legion is being rebooted again. The current version of the the legion was doomed the moment Saturn Girl, Cosmic Boy and Live Wire saved RJ Brande from being assassinated. Again.

Exactly.

For that matter, even if they didn't reinvent it, or decided to start over from a particular location in history (say, right after the Magic Wars), it wouldn't make a lot of people happy.

I think it's safe to say that Legion fandom is united around its love for the team but fractured when it comes to favorite eras and the like. With so many different characters and approaches to choose from, that's understandable.

I'm ageed with Drura in all the things.
The Snake Jeka was the most infamous revamp of a lovely character.
Monstres was another silly one.
Even XS, don't like me.
Only Kinetix, Gates and Shikari are nice.
And the super Nun Andy...

Because C.O.M.P.U.T.O. was in control of them too. And it would have been inconvienient for him/it.

(a) I suspect that was trying to prevent anyone from giving her them in future. (b) Crossover. 'Nuff Said.

And the Subs was the reverse - just to have them out there without having to do an origin later.

And how many other Fatal Five stories ended with Mano being shocked at Tharok's casual genocide attempt and disintegrating him?

I gues we'll have to agree to disagree then, since XS is probably my favorite Legionaire, and I'll miss her, since I'm suspecting she'll be sacrificed because she's not "silver age"

Hmmm. Maybe not. Xs is part of the 'Flash Family', and we all know how much Waid loves the Running Crew...

I-Drura, I agree word-for-word with about 98.5% of your above posts.

Here's hoping Waid's re-imagining fares better!