Late but we've got a lot of Legion-y goodness coming our way in November! Text and images below the spoiler space.

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SUPERGIRL AND THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #36

Written by Tony Bedard, art and cover by Dennis Calero.

The Quest for Cosmic Boy concludes as Brainiac 5's secret is revealed! Plus, Lightning Lad's place in the Legion gets a shocking change, Supergirl spends her last day as a Legionnaire, and the trans-temporal menace of Evolvo-Lad intensifies!

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Nov. 28.




ACTION COMICS #859 (variant cover)

Written by Geoff Johns, art by Gary Frank and Jonathan Sibal, cover by Frank, variant cover by Andy Kubert.

The return of the original Legion of Super-Heroes continues! The Man of Steel's jump to the future is anything but idyllic as he finds a world torn apart by strife and a populace that has turned on the Legion of Super-Heroes -- and it's all because of Superman! But what went wrong, and how can Superman begin to fix it when he's Public Enemy #1?

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Nov. 21.



THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES: AN EYE FOR AN EYE TP

Written by Paul Levitz, art by Keith Giffen, Steve Lightle, Joe Orlando and Larry Mahlstedt, cover by Giffen.

The first collection of The Legion of Super-Heroes' series that launched in 1984, featuring the talents of legendary Legion creators Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen! In this fast-paced, futuristic title, collecting the first six issues of the series, The Legion learns of a conspiracy by a consortium of evil calling itself The Legion of Super-Villains to destroy the team -- and it's Karate Kid who pays the ultimate price!

160 pages, $17.99, in stores on Dec. 19. Advance-solicited; on sale December 19 € 160 pg, FC,



BATMAN/SUPERMAN: SAGA OF THE SUPER SONS TP

Written by Bob Haney, art by Dick Dillin, Murphy Anderson, Vince Colletta and others, cover by Nick Cardy.

For the first time, the complete saga of the Super Sons is collected in one volume! Features stories from the pages of World's Finest Comics #215-216, 221-222, 224, 228, 230, 231, 233, 238, 242, 263 and Elseworlds 80-Page Giant #1!

256 pages, $19.99, in stores on Dec. 5.



COUNTDOWN TO FINAL CRISIS 25-22

Story by Paul Dini, breakdowns by Keith Giffen.

25 script by Adam Beechen and art by Carlos Magno.

24 script by Justin Gray and Jimmy Palmiotti and art by Al Barrionuevo.

23 script by Paul Dini and art by Tom Derenick.

22 script by Tony Bedard and art by Manuel Garcia.

Covers 25, 24 and 22 by Claudio Castellini, cover 23 by J.G. Jones.

The countdown continues with a new name and even bigger thrills! Karate Kid makes it to the bunker in Blüdhaven and confronts both Firestorm and the Atomic Knights! Jimmy Olsen enslaved on Apokolips! Mary Marvel not enslaved on Apokolips! The Monitor, Jason Todd and Donna Troy home in on Ray Palmer's trail! Desaad takes control! Lex Luthor kidnapped -- but by whom? Trickster and Piper: One will live...one will die! And Mister Mxyzptlk explains it all! Plus, more DC Villains origin backup stories, including: Desaad and Mr. Mxyzptlk!

32 pages, in stores on Oct. 3, Oct. 10, Oct. 17 and Nov. 28, $2.99



JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #15

Written by Dwayne McDuffie, art by Ed Benes and Sandra Hope, cover by Ian Churchill.

It's the brawl of the century, as the Justice League of America takes on the Injustice League in the final chapter of "Unlimited."

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Nov. 21.

Love Dennis' new cover. Maybe my fave so far. The contrat between bright/dark. The shadows and Cosmic Boy's all white glove. Just cool.

I don't like Garth sleeveless but it doesn't look bad. Saturn Girl doesn't look bad either.

Cosmic Boy? I can't decide if I like it or if it's up there with my all time worsts (Mekt and Alan Scott).

"The return of the original Legion of Super-Heroes continues!"

Looks like just another re-imagining to me. But, what do I know.

And the Eye for an Eye TP will rock! I hope some new readers pick this up. It's one of my fave stories. Sure it's not perfect but it's pretty good.

What? No talk about Dream Girl being on the cover???

Wow.

A classic Legion Trade Paperback. I'm stunned. I consider buying it just to boost sales - I have all the originals (but quite like this particular story) but still, I guess I'll just spend the money. To show them what I am willing to buy.

Call me stupid.

But hey: It's really happening! They are coming back! My childhood Legion (and some of its continuity) will be returning! Me so glad

As for the other stuff:

@Action #859: Wow, the last 13 years did not do them much good... short hair cut on Saturn Girl, well like with all women this makes her look 20 years older but I never was a fan of her so I don't care as long as it's "The return of the original Legion of Super-Heroes" (SIC!!!)... Cos looks like the Punisher while Garth seems to have kept in form best over the last decade...

But hey, that's the Kubert alternate cover. X-Men artist, what more shall I say. I will stick to the regular Gary Frank cover and am quite sure that the three Legion founders will look a little less "X-Force" under his watch...

Even the story sounds interesting. I am really excited - got some bad news today so this is clearly the best this day has thrown at me! Thank you DC!

@Legion #36: As I said, the WaK runs left me cold, Dream Girls death as a cheap gimmick left me cold so her resurrection will also leave me cold. Decent art by Calero though. Quite different Cosmic Boy compared to Kubert

Hey is Cos on Calero's cover the same age as he was when he left or did he spend some time in the future?

Because the highlights in his hair make him look like he's going gray. He also has a mighty receding hairline don't ya think?

That's a dashed striking cover on #36. I'm going to miss Calero when he's gone, Manapul or no Manapul.

The arc in Action sounds interesting. I mean, I was going to get it anyway, but I'm glad it at least sounds interesting.

Will leave you cold? She's been back for over a year now. Well, pretty much, anyway...

exactly that's what my reaction was - Dream Girl? what's she doing thee? *confused* dead or undead or does it has something to do with Brainiac 5's "secret"?

I'm excited to see Dream Girl on the cover! I don't care for her face, so much. And speaking of faces, Coz looks nothing like himself. If that's intentional, fine, but if it's just an artist's choice thing... not fine. Jo looks awesome and the industrial quality to the cover is great.

The Action cover is cool. Dinosaur! However, the trend in an unrecognizable Coz continues. Garth and Imra look great!

The Action cover:
- They're in the Batcave. Their secret, underground HQ??
- They're lowering themselves down with harnesses and ropes. They are *not* wearing flight rings. To avoid detection by their enemies?
- Newfangled "L" belts. Is this a case of great [sic] minds thinking alike or just cosmic coincidence?

Wow, after seeing these bad costumes I appreciate Mr. Manapul redesigns all the more. And somebody please buy Saturn Girl a double cheesburger. She looks dreadful, imo. So does Cos, on both covers. Lighting Lad is okay but needs his 'toon eye scar to complete the pirate effect. Calero's Ultra Boy rules them all.

Brainy's "secret" may be that he's experimenting with time travel. First test: bring Dream Girl back from the past.

I continue to be impressed by Calero's take on the Legion. The cover looks great.

Supergirl's last day as a Legionnaire. I like this development. I hope that we get a good explanation about her time in in the 31st century, and look forward to following her in the Teen Titans. IMO, a much better fit for this version of Kara.

Not sure that I like Rokk on the Action cover, but Garth and Imra look good. I'm all for sleeveless guys. Garth has been portrayed in a lot of different lights over the years, but sexy has never been one of them. Hard to tell from just one shot if that is the intention, but if it is, I'm all for it. I'm really curious to see where this story is going.

I'll be picking up the Super Sons collection. I only have three or four these stories, and love the ones I have.

LSH and Action look great!

TPB: great to see, $7.50 of comic for only $17.99!

Only $8.99 if you order it from the right place.

Oh I have to disagree with you there Jerry. When Cockrum and Grell drew Garth in the early days especially that story with Soljer in it. Garth looked very good :

Wow, lot's of goodness.

I agree about the Action cover -- those are some ugly Legionnaires. Makes the original Adult Legion (balding, potbellied and moustached) look positively dashing. I think this story is RILLY gonna roach the buzz of everyone swooning over the Legion in the Lightning Saga. I mean, do we need another dystopic, dysfunctional grown-up ugly Legion? Giffen and the Bierbaums pretty much nailed that one almost 20 years ago (urk! 20 years!)

It's great they are issuing the LSV saga as a trade. I remember hunting high and low for that first issue -- every comic shop I went to was sold out. I settled for a ripped cover copy from a shop in Roanoke, VA around Christmas. Was that 1983? Must have been since I was driving by then.

No comments on the Super Sons?!?! I cannot WAIT to get that trade. I still remember that particular cover jumping off the spinner rack (or, it may have been the newsstand shelf) and grabbing me. Look how majestic Superman looks. Man, I miss that. And, while I realize this is "Superman, Jr.," I think that's just about the best image of a Superboy ever. Haney did some great covers in the early 1970s.

hey, can someone clue me in as to why the Super Sons tpb is listed here? What's the LSH connection, if any?

thanks.

Looks like they skipped the Legion ones. But the 80pg Elseworlds Giant is supposed to have an Elastic Lad appearance.

Re: the "Action" cover -- didn't we see somewhere that these aren't Legionnaires? (hence no flight rings) This is from some future future time where three new characters who happen to resemble the three founders are examining the Bat-Cave.

DrakeB3004, you saying these are the Tempus Knights guys? From the 41st century???

Anyways I hope it isn't the Lightning Saga versions. And I hope Gary Frank's cover is shown soon. Might be a "fake" cover.

Really disliking Frank's new designs.

While I'm not against new costumes for the classic Legion, these are ugly!

Folks, I think they're totally supposed to be. This is not your papa's Legion. Or even yours, 25 years ago. Methinks Superman's new visit to "his" Legion will see them his age and in a world as much darker than the LSH of 25 years ago as our modern comics are than the ones we read 25 years ago.

It looks like some kind of fusion of the TMK Legion with Superman in continuity.


Blech.

Words cannot describe how much I loathe that Kubert cover.


CosmicBoy looks like he should be leading Easy Company.

Looks like they are going to give Saturn Girl the Storm/Post Crisis Vi, hardened bitter female treatment.

Words cannot describe how much I detest what I have see here and where this looks to be going...


I absolutely abhor the X-Legion.


I just don't understand why DC is so determined to do the Legion every way but the right one.


I didn't think DC could screwup brining back this Legion and putting SuperMan in it...but turning them into the X-Legion...again, will do it for me.

Oh well...I'll read it until I get sick of it. I hope they don't plan on giving that abomination it's own series...one lame version of the Legion is hard enough to deal with...I can't handle two and I think DC will have managed to finally rid me from the Legion Fan Base.

Ok after looking at it some more I'm not as filled with dread as I was initially.

RatBo er CosmicBoy has always had an ugly costume more or less. If I had to wear that monstrosity I'd have a scowl on my face too.

The sleeveless look on Lightning Lad kind of grows on you.

I absolutely do not like the Saturn Girl redesign...but to be honest about it...the Pink Bikini is probably the only look I will ever accept for her. That's my favorite Imra by far...and that look was gone long before the crisis.


Now as for the images this cover conveys in my head about what direction they are taking this Legion...hunted renegades etc....

If that's just the introductory arc I'm ok...if that somehow becomes the tone of any new orgiginal Legion series, I am going to have a stroke. That is my absolute worst fear...


I just don't enjoy a lowtech Legion fighting the establishment while still trying to fignt bad guys in a galaxy gone bad where science has fallen to Magic.

That blew the first time I read it(except for the MatterLadStuff which was all time best Legion stuff) and it's going to blow this time as well IMO.


I like the Biiiig Legion...Biggest Regular SuperTeam in Comics History, where you are constantly seeing characters you really don't know much about and want to see more of them...but might have to wait 99 issues(in the pre mini series era) to learn something about them. I like one that fights incomparably powerful bad guys and is constantly journeying to New Worlds, Solar Systems, and introducing new spieces and races, or at least constantly introducing things of this sort we haven'
t seen before, even though the Legion might have encountered them before...in an untold tale.

I like the Legion being a SuperTeam that fights at the Galactic or even Universal Level. A 31st century that amazes with it's techonology...not a Legion steeped in Urban Crime Fighting on Earth, or a small galactic scale revolving around a small group of planets, fighting villians all basically introduced in a 20 issue span of Adventure Comics by Jim Shooter back in the Sixties...as much at odds with their own govt as they are their own super villians.


I mean when was the last time a truly memorable Legion Villian was added to their rogues gallery...didn't happen in the Levitz Era, which was deconstructionist in many ways to many of their greatest rogues...hasn't happened since the Levitz Era...and most of their old great villians have been retconned into the 21st century.

I guess I just want sci-fi elements put back in and the Universe to be growing...instead of it being rebooted, reintroduced etc. And I'd like this future to in some way appear to be one a thousand years in our future...instead of one that looks like it might be 50 years away, technologically speaking. And one that hasn't grown much socially since our own current era.


That said...if this is just the introductory arc and the whole purpose is to fix what went wrong....then I am very happy, and that cover starts to bring up some really cool images in my mind. I mean that is the same crew from way way back in Adventure #247, in the BatCave...now that could be awesome.

I'm still not a big fan of the Kubert style there though..it just looks too X-manny to me.

The X-Men should rip of the Legion(to great effect in the 70'd)...not the other way around. I don't want the Legion to be anti-establishment renegades as anything other than a story arc...I want them to be a respected SuperTeam in their era that instantly has credibility, like the JSA and JLA...not the X-Men.

Yes, all the more reason why the whole Dream Girl story is so un-interesting... if you bring back the character (even if only in Brainys mind) after only a few months, the whole death scene looses all of its impact. Poor storywriting.

Yes! We need it! After over half a decade of Archie Legion and another three years of Waids directionless babbling (with a very decent DnA run in between), I would take any dystopic SciFi story without further thinking about it. Even if it means that the classic TMK run will still be out of continuity - which is a shame, I'm currently rereading it, once again loving it! - I would be very much interested in a 21th century take on an adult Legion.

But I have always loved "dark future" scenarios - never was one for the "funny books".

Those aren't Franks designs. This is the Andy Kubert variant cover. So not much can be said about the action costumes and looks of the Legion founders - as long as we don't see the regular Gary Frank cover.

I'm wondering if they are not showing that to avoid some spoilers...

Maybe it's Dream Boy in drag? And is it me or is that Cos an imposter based on the Asian features on his face?

Who is Hawkgirl fighting on the cover of JLA? I guess it must be a Hawk villian, but it does reminds me of The Chameleon from the LSH & L* 1,000,000 book. And Stewart instead of Jordan? Interesting.

Looks like Shadow Thief, maybe?

Well, this conversation has taken an unexpected turn.

Imagine if I turned out to be the one defending stories about the Lightning Saga Legion to everyone else! Because I'm looking forward to this story.

I'm looking forward to it too, a lot.

I actually think the Action Comics cover is far superior to the Legion cover. I've liked all of Dennis' covers, but this one, well, kinda looks awful to me. Kubert's Action cover is very dynamic, and cool that its in the Bat-cave.

Love seeing the V.3 #1 cover again. What a brillant, striking cover.

Those are clearly Kubert's interpretations of Frank's designs. There's no way the costumes won't resemble what's in the interior art. We've already seen a Dawnstar costume that was kinda meh. Not that I'm a fan of the 80's fringe outfit, mind you.

But Really they look like they're the Uncanny L-Rebels from the future, come back to tell Clark Kent what doom awaits him in an alternate reality gone bad.

The original Legion knew about the Batcave since the Adventure days. A group of them hid there during the Computo the Conqueror story in 1965/1966 (Sun Boy led them there, iirc). We never did learn how it was first discovered or if they ever made use of it again -- not in original continuity, anyway.

I suspect Geoff Johns is referencing this relatively obscure moment of ancient history as a way of reinforcing the idea that the LS Legion is the original one. (It will take a lot more than that to convince me.)

We finally differ on something! My thoughts are the exact oppossite. Kubert's Action has underwhelmed thus far.

--"Lightning Lad's place in the Legion gets a shocking change"

His 'place' gets a shocking change? He moves in with Imra? This boot has Athramites? Light Lass begins her hobby/career as an interior decorator?

I'll bet he's the new leader.

"Supergirl spends her last day as a Legionnaire"

Well, if she'd remain as 'just one of the gang', I wouldn't mind if she stayed around. Especially if they ended this Cosmic Boy, Invisible Kid nonsense-- those crushes haven't been 1/10th as interesting or fun as the original Brainy one.

"The trans-temporal menace of Evolvo-Lad intensifies!"

Now this really has me interested. I hope the 'menace' is 'just' an oppositional one and not one in which Evolvo Lad is an out-and-out villain (not that there's much of a distinction in this boot).

ERG was mentioned in last month's solicit-- now Evolvo Lad. Wonder if Life Lass and one of my favorites, Gas Girl, will pop up as well?

good point. Geoff does like using the empty spaces of continuity in his stories. i.e. the Green Latern yellow impurity is really fear incarnate trapped by the guardians.

however, I am feeling more and more that I should stop reading this current run of the book. why spend money when it seems rather obvious they are just going to cancel the current book and start over with the new old legion?

My thought exactly. Wasn't he the runner-up in the election? He should be deputy, assuming they have deputies, and then step into Kara's place when she finally leaves.

It doesn't seem obvious to me. I honestly don't think that's what they're going to do.

Why do you think that? As far as I know, the new creative team is picking up at issue #37 or #38. The Legionnaires on Manapul's cover are evidently the same characters with some costume and cosmetic tweaks. There's little there that can't be accounted for by organic change, imo, or the events taking place in the Bedard arc (e.g., Timber Wolf's feral transformation.). The missing Legionnaires (Cosmic Boy, Mon-El, Dream Girl, Supergirl) reflect current or near-future plot points. Am I missing something?

DC may shift focus to the old Legion eventually, but no word of that so far, and it doesn't mean the kids will be executed and buried. In the meantime, relax and enjoy. It's all Legion.

As for the leadership question, LL looks pretty leaderly on the Manapul cover, but so does Brainy.

I suspect it will fall to Garth, but I wouldn't be *shocked* if he handed it over to Imra, or made her "twin" leader.

Really like the cover to #36, though I've had my fill of orange covers lately.

Horray for another classic LSH tpb, finally. Maybe another archive edition will be published if all of this stuff sells well enough.

As far as the Kubert Action cover, they strike me as a 30-something Legion with all of the obvious cliches applied, I sniffed.

Probably all of these LSH threads are going to tie together in 2008. Where its all leading, I don't know but I'll go along for the ride, still and once again.

Isn't it about time for another Archives? When did 13 come out?

Well fjm and "Jim" on the current book may be DC letting Shooter do what he damn well pleases before cancelling the book?

Levitz: Jim all those crazy Legion ideas you had? Well we don't do Elseworlds anymore but we are cancelling the current Legion book. Go to town and it's all going to be erased anyways.

I gotta admit...MatterEaterLad and Policy Pam taking on Prince Evillo rivals anything Frank Miller has ever done with Batman in the Gritty/Dark Future department.

To be honest...I've been reading you posts here, and Geoff Johns Forum...

And I really don't understand what the essence of your argument is...I guess it's over what people define as the Real Legion.

I think that is very much up to the individual and for many...those statues in the Fortress represent the Real Legion. As close to it was we will likely get...as close to it as we have been in a long time.

I also seem to notice that most of the people that aren't too happy about the Lightning Saga Legion seem to be fans of this W&K version, which is fine...everyone should be free to like what they want.

Where I think I disagree with what I think your sentiments are...well it seems like you don't want two versions of the Legion, which to me comes off as you wanting a certain amount of say over the Legion I read...

I don't care who gets confused...if a book confuses someone, they shouldn't read it.


Nothing is more confusing than the post crisis continuity of the Legion, and I understand it as well as anyone, I just don't like having to understand it...starting with Levitz Legion #38.


I say may the best Legion win...

I fully support multiple versions of the Legion in publication and the right of Legion fans to choose which one...and if the audience isn't there to support it...that's the fault of that Legion...not Legion fans.

IMO...

If the Adventure stories happened...excellent. If Cockrum Bates etc. happened...excellent and so far they have been trying to convey that. I am thrilled. That's the Legion I want to read about.


Not this stuff they've been printing that I haven't enjoyed very much for the last 20 years. I've read it...I've given it a chance...

But it's basically just been a bunch of retcons and reinterpretations.





I don't particularly like the Legion on the run concept...that type of Legion story was never anything than an arc prior to 1989. To me that isn't the real Legion. But that's just my opinion...however based on sales, I have a feeling my opinion is a common one.


As for this Lightning Saga Legion turning into the TMK Legion with Superman added...


That's just another retelling/retconning of an era IMO...which I detest. I don't think anyone wants to read another retelling...not anyone that's currently a fan. Well...there might be a couple...the same ones that like the other retellings.

That's not changing...that's not evolving...that's retelling stories already told.


I want to see my Legion continue...my Legion ceased to exist in Baxter Legion #38.

It sold well....it was well regarded by it's fans...it was destroyed not for financial reasons, but on a creative whim by someone that didn't particularly care for the Legion.


To be honest...I spent most of the Baxter Run waiting for Levitz to come close to the GDS and he never did...if they lop off everything after Keith Giffen's change in art style..that'll be even be closer to the Legion I love. And I'll be even happier if that is where the LS Legion picks up from.


I just don't understand a lot of the arguments going on in defending post crisis versions of the Legion.

Those books and concepts failed on their own merits...yes they each attracted fans...but not enough to justify their continued production. And in truth...those Legions probably lasted longer tha they would have based on their own merits...due to loyalists like myself buying the product, hoping for it to be enjoyable, even though they didn't enjoy it.

Telling people they should like those versions is never going to be a winnable argument.

And DC not producing a well liked and popular version in an attempt to make people like the one they want them to like...isn't going to work either...as the past 20 years prove.


I say put out different versions...the market and fans will support the ones they want to see....and they won't support the ones they don't. That's the right thing to do by all fans.

perhaps. but Tromium, don't forget what happened with the Flash. DC solicited an issue that they knew was not going to happen. to hide the cracker jack prize of Kid Flash sleeping with the fishes. and there was that fuss about the new team for Supergirl that turned out to be a fill-in team.

I am just saying the DC leadership doesn't mind throwing us fans a curve ball.

The Third Kryptonian? It appears to be a woman with a leather jacket. In Action #850 she seems to have appeared in a panel...smoking.

I hope it isn't the original Kara that has gone "dark" like the other Legionnaires.

She's got red hair and freckles...I don't see anyway it could be Kara. She looks a lot more like Jimmy Olsen than she does SuperGirl.


She does look a lot like SuperWoman Kristen Wells though...but since that SuperWoman wasn't a Kryptonian, I am not sure it's going to be her either.


I do have a feeling this character is going to wind up being SuperWoman though. And I think that'll be cool.


Maybe she's Dev-Em

What you're saying makes a lot of sense. Even though "my" Legion ended much later - with Zero Hour - and I really loved the TMK era, I think it is important to bring back a Legion with a "history" - an origin, to begin with - where all those wonderful characters actually have a biography. The current Legionnaires are just empty hulls in a spandex suit, and I hate that.

So I hope Johns and Co. are saving as much of the old continuity as possible - my beloved TMK run probably has to stay in eternal comic book limbo (or a lesser known parallel universe of the Multiverse) - and will be adding new powerful stories to the classic Legion Lore.

I don't pretend to know anything about DC's plans for the Legion and I'm thoroughly skeptical about the current rumors, but I do believe one thing: DC wants the LSH to be a success again and, to that end, they're investing a lot in it this year and next. There is absolutely no profit to be gained from decimating the 3boot Legion, especially in a newly created multiverse. Quite the opposite -- it would befoul the Anniversary celebration and inflame fan divisions at the worst possible time. Only the haters would be happy, but I hardly think DC wants to reward that segment of Legion fandom. I agree there'll be curveballs in the coming months, but I get the feeling DC is finally done throwing beanballs at us.

As to the fate of the recently deceased Flash -- Didio dropped a grenade at one of the recent panels, though nobody's sure if he was intentionally misdirecting or not:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">He teased it was Bart in the lightning rod.</span></span>

Time will tell, but I won't paint it black before I see the true colors.

I like that spoiler.

And yeah, count me as a fan who really wants to see the 3boot Legion continue. The whole L* concept feels fresher to me than it has in a long time. Going back to the "old" Legion would be stale. I'm a big enough fan of the LSH that I'll stick with it even if they did "backtrack," but it's very much not my preference.

But then, I became a fan late in the TMK run and thus have little sentiment for the 80's series (although I now think it's superior to the whole 5YG).

Superboy: No, you’ve got me wrong.

First, I don’t think there is a Real Legion. They’re all the Real Legion.

My argument is basically that DC is calling the Lightning Saga Legion ‘original’, when it isn’t. I don’t mind that it isn’t original; I just mind that DC seems to be trying to snow us on this point.

I do want two versions of the Legion. In fact, I want more than that. I want all of them: original, reboot, threeboot, SW6, animated, whatever else you want to throw in there. Why not? There’s no reason for them all not to exist someplace.

I think you’re underrating more recent versions of the Legion; there’s some good stuff there. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it, of course, but it’s better than you say it is.

As for the Lightning Saga Legion. I know a lot of people miss the Levitz-era Legion, but the Lightning Saga Legion has not yet been proven to be the same as the Levitz-era Legion. Some may assume that it is, but there’s not a lot of evidence to actually support that. Go back and look at the comics they’ve appeared in: we really don’t know a lot about this crowd or what DC’s going to do with them. And if all you want is the Levitz-era Legion back, I think there’s a good chance you’re not going to get it.

I don't see any thing to indicate that the 5YG Legion can't exist in the new multiverse...except for maybe the first 4 issues of it...


It was a Legion in which Superboy and Mon-El didn't exist as members basically(I know Mon was in it, but he was a Superboy replacement, not Mon-El)....and therefore could be on just about any Earth...


We know there are going to be 3 Legions in the this Upcoming Saga...


W&K is obviously one of them..
The LS Legion is obviously another...


So that leaves basically two unaccounted for Legions...the Archie and TMK Legion. Incidentally...it wouldn't be too hard to make the Archie Legion and the TMK Legion the same time line with just a couple of minor tweaks. The Mon-El in both is similar...they both have Laurel Gand...

Might have to change Jeckie back from being a snake of course...

Of course, it could always be an evil version of the Legion...that's the third Legion.


The thing is...the TMK and Archie Legions could exist on any Earth...it just doesn't make much sense to tie them into the Earth which the main Superman is on...


I like a lot of what TMK did...I just didn't like the foundation of the series.


I hope some of what they did makes it into other versions of the Legion...in particular their MatterEaterLad.

I've read in interviews that they'd have prefered to have Superboy himself...DC Editorial policy at the time wouldn't allow for it...so they tried to replace him with Mon hoping people would accept it, since Mon was a longtime Legionaire..but it basically just made some people mad...not to mention altered Mon-El into a near unrecognizable form.

To tell you the truth...


If there are going to be multiple earths there simply have to be multiple Legions.....and there were always multiple Legions Pre-Crisis as well...


It actually doesn't make much sense for there to only be one Legion in the DC multiverse..


52 Earths...I doubt DC has plans for the 31st century on all of them...not including the Legion.


The Legion in SuperBoy's Legion probably exists on one of them.
TMK
W&K
Archie
All the Pre Crisis Versions...
The Animated Legion


And coolest of all...

We know there is an evil Legion out there somewhere.

That type of story has really yet to be told for the Legion...at least in the era of modern comics and being a major arc.

52 Earths is a lot of Earths. Plenty of 31st Centuries to go around....

Fair enough.


From DC's POV...if you want to get the original Legion back...there is no way to do it...but if you want those fans and concept back...this is about as close at it gets.


There were always minor retcons done to the Legion, even Pre Crisis.

To me this Legion could have an identical history up to the events of Crisis...I mean we just might have never known StarBoy was schitzophrenic...

It could be the 31st century equivlant of a cold.

To me the original Legion did not continue until 1994 or whenever...it ended with the Byrne revamp of Superman...the Pocket Universe story could not cover all the holes created...


They all had some nice tweaks, tweaks I wouldn't mind incorporated into the continuity of any and all future Legions.


But as you can tell by my chosen nic...conceptually...I have certain requirements...

Additionally...there were a lot of changes made that didn't need to be made...

EG: Jeckie = Snake...

Why?


To tell you the truth...I wasn't that crazy about the Baxter run...

For me the Levitz Legion peaked with the GDS Saga...but that's just my opinion...

I am in favor of any retcon that gives Saturn Girl the Farah Fawcett hair and Pink Bikini back btw...


I am kind nervous about this right now...but I do agree with this sentiment...

I seriously hope that they don't turn this Legion into the Dark Future one...because I've seen it done...even if I had liked it, I wouldn't have wanted to see it done again...

Hopefully they'll do that one on a different earth...and if it sells...more power to em. If it sells better than the the attempt at the Original Legion and that fails...so be it...at least that will be the will of Legion Fans and not that of a single boneheaded Legion hating creator.


My major point is I don't want a reimagining of stories already told in the regular continuity...

I don't really enjoy the endless cycle of reintroductions, and inane and unneeded creator tweaks to established and beloved characters, just done for the sake of change...I've read that stuff before. I've grown very impatient with it...even fans that came aboard for the first time with the post crisis versions are getting tired of it...

Yes, but you're still not with me. I'm not saying, "This Legion isn't original. Give me the original Legion!" I'm saying, "This Legion isn't original. Stop saying that it is!" There is a difference.

(Having said that, I would love to see the original Legion back in comics. I'd like DC to pick right up from the 'End of an Era' arc in '93 or '94 or whenever it was, with the original Legion and SW6 Legion standing dazed around the Time Beacon saying, "Huh. That was weird," and then the story goes on from there. And there's no reason why it can't be done, on some other Earth of the multiverse. There's no reason it can't be done. But that doesn't happen to be what I'm asking for in the discussion about the Lightning Saga Legion.)

No, I don't want that either. Instead of dwelling on the past, let's have good, new, stories that are informed by the past but not determined by the past.

Re: Lightning Saga Legion. I honestly think there is a possibility they are from different times in Legion PC history.

Certainly seemed like it, since they had both Karate-Val and Sensor-Jeckie as members. The Wildfire and Dawnstar from the Lightning Saga grouping seemed to have some issues as well, as did the Star Boy / Dreamy pairing, which made it seem all the more like they were pulled from different places. (Both Wildfire and Thom seemed to think that they were still 'with' Dawnstar and Dreamy, respectively, while both Dawnstar and Dreamy seemed to have very different opinions.)

This would certainly be the most perfect solution for us continuity-focussed "oldtimers"

I really would love to get back all of Legion Lore. But to me, the Lightning Saga Legion seems to bring back at least a huge part of that Lore, even though continuity challenged - whatever. As long as the Adventure era , the 70s and most of the Levitz era are being reestablished, I will take this new/old incarnation over the current Legion anytime. The question if those guys are the same - or just very similar - characters like back in 1987 seems not that important to me...

Well I am pretty excited.

The ACTION arc looks to be great fun. Garth is the new HUBBA Legionnaire between his 'toonverse goatee'd look and this sleeveless outfit. Yummers!

This version of LSH hasn't been really big on having covers match interiors-- even the slightest bit-- so I'm not all excited about Dreamy on the cover yet.

I'm going to buy that LSV tpb despite having those issues. It will be my first-ever LSH tpb.

I'm going to get the Super-Sons tpb too. I had (have)some of those original issues way back when and they are shabby from my kidly re-reading. I remember thinking those tales were great fun.

And I am saying if the Adventure run happened in this Legion's history?

It is the original, and so far that is what DC is indicating


And I am sorry...but the Tom and Mary Bierbaum Legion was in no way the original Legion of Superheroes. The end of the Levitz run was not even the original Legion of Superheroes.

When Superboy was moved to a Pocket Universe, that was the end of the original Legion of Superheroes, because that solution was not a solution at all. It fixed nothing. That was when the Legion became a depressing mess. That was when solutions started being attempted that only made the problem worse.

Tom and Mary Bierbaum? They never got a chance to write the original Legion, and I am sure if you read some interviews with them you will arrive at this same conclusion. What they wrote, by their own words, was an attempt to fix the continuity of the original Legion.

It did not correct the numerous holes created by the Byrne revamp.

The original Legion met Superman, and he was also around when they went back and recruited Kara, who incidentally was not accounted for in the Pocket Universe solution.

Kara, you know, the impossible love of Braniac 5.

Sorry the Tom and Mary Bierbaum Legion was not the original Legion. The original Legion ended with Baxter #38, that one is easy to find for reference, it's the only issue of the Baxter Legion, and all other Legions since, that is worth more than a dollar. That can actually be sold to someone because they are willing to pay to read it.

If the Adventure era stories happened, if Bates Cockrum happened, if Pre Crisis Levitz happened, this Legion is the original.

The original Legion did not end in 1993. It ended in 1986 or 87. If Streaky does not fit, you must admit.

All of what you say is why the "Lightning Saga" Legion isn't and will never be the "original" Legion. Especially if the modern Superman was a member. The Original™ Legion had Superboy, Insect Queen, Elastic Lad, Pete Ross, the original (non-skanky) Supergirl, the Super-Pets, etc. etc.

The "Lightning Saga" Legion is another re-imagining of the concept just like Waid and Barry's Legion and just like the Reboot/DnA Legion. The only thing they had going for them that made them superior to the other re-imagined Legions was the costumes (for me anyway).

And now they lack that as well. Anyway, I love all Legions, so I'm sure I find something redeeming in the LS Legion.

But I do miss and wish I could read stories involving the Pre-Crisis Legion again (at any point in their history).

I don't see why putting Superboy into the Pocket universe changed the Legion from original to no longer original.

The continuity stayed the same, they just explained who this Superboy was that no longer existed in the then proper DCU after Byrne. it may be a lame stunt (even though i thought the whole idea was not that bad), but it did not change anything about the dozens of years of Legion Lore - all still existed, only the time travels had been retconned into having happened in another dimension.

The first "real" reboot happened when Giffen had to write Superboy out of existance alltogether (what whatever dull reasons that was - TPTB seem to have had a bad year or so) in v4 #4-6. Still this changed Legion felt very real to me and the stories were master SciFi stuff, stuff that you can reread more than just once and it still excites you.

In no way can this be compared to Zero Hour wiping out everything everything EVERYTHING that ever happened and substituting it with a (then popular) kiddie book. Try to reread that stuff - makes you cringe...

As for Lightning Saga Legion - considering that they SEEM to resemble the characters from the original run implicates that their biographies and the history of their team will resemble the old continuity as well. We have no data yet if this implication is true. But I am full of hope.

That's not really true at all. I don't think you realize how intrinsically the Superman mythology was tied into the Legion mythos...

Let me just put it this way, the Pocket Universe Superboy never grew up to be Superman.

That little insignifigant detail totally destroys the personal histories of Brainiac 5, Karate Kid and Mon-El. As well as dozens of Legion crossovers with Superman. Not Superboy, Superman.

It also eliminates honorary Legionaires like Jimmy Olsen, real Legionaires like Supergirl. It eliminates the Legion of Super-Pets.


I mean call it stupid or whatever you want, but the Superpets saved the entire Legion once upon a time. The Legion traveled back in time to visit Jimmy Olsen weekly in the Sixties, and SuperGirl and Superman.

Karate Kid's series took place in Superman's time, not Superboy's.

Mon-El watched Superboy grow into Superman and participated in several Superman stories via the Phantom Zone.

Brainiac 5 was named after Brainiac. The Pre Crisis Superman villian Brainiac, who was way different than his post crisis counterpart. Brainiac 5 was also in love with Supergirl and all of a sudden she didn't exist any more.


And you know, Supergirl in addition to saving the Legion on more than one occassion, also played a pretty prominent role in the Great Darkness Saga. Arguably the greatest story in Legion history.

Giffen and the Bierbaum's were not the ones that screwed the Legion up, they just tried to fix it and their solution just happened to be one that came off as being pretty insensitive to a huge selection of Legion Fans. It wasn't so much that they screwed it up, as it was they poured a nice heaping portion of salt in Legion fan wounds by eliminating even the memories of the original Legion. But the continuity was already ruined beyond repair.

And the cherry on top of all of this was that about 6 months after the Legion's history was ruined, by Byrne making Superman "unique" again, Byrne himself went into that same Pocket Universe to create his own Supergirl. Byrne is such an unintelligent man. If he couldn't draw he probably couldn't hold a job sacking groceries. He has the intellect of a stump.

And how do you know it doesn't still have those things? Aside from skanky SuperGirl I mean. And just because she hasn't been shown to have a history with this Legion yet doesn't mean she won't...time paradoxes you know, she could still wind up in the LS Legion before Superman was a member of it...

Jimmy Olsen is looking awfully SilverAgey these days...so is Krypto. Did you notice Superman saying he had Krypto as a boy last month?

People can bash Didio, but he's not afraid of the Silver Age concepts, he quite seems to like them in fact. I am not convinced that anything is written out yet.

I don't think DC is indicating that. Not consistently. They're trying to tell us that they're indicating that... but what's on the comic page doesn't quite match it.
Anyway, the Adventure run also happened (with changes, I grant you) for the post-Crisis and Five Years Later Legions.
I understand that position. It doesn't happen to be a position I take, but I respect it. However, those versions of the Legion have some qualities that I think gives them a stronger case for being called 'original' than the Lightning Saga Legion has:
1. The creators of the post-Crisis and 5YL Legions were pretty clearly trying to preserve as much past original Legion continuity as they could in the face of unreasonable editorial demands. I am willing to meet them halfway and say that their Legion versions were as close to 'original' as they could get. The creators of the Lightning Saga Legion put in all kinds of changes, some of them extending back before Crisis on Infinite Earths, that suggested that their Legion was not quite the original Legion. I'd be willing to meet them halfway, but I don't know what to meet them halfway on. Are they the same, or different?
2. Before the post-Crisis stories and 5YL Legion stories were created, there were no existing accounts of what the Legion got up to post-Crisis to contradict. After they were created, that wasn't true anymore, and now the Lightning Saga Legion stories necessarily contradict the post-Crisis and 5YL stories. Basically, Levitz and Giffen and the Bierbaums got there first, and therefore have a better claim at the word 'original'.
3. The post-Crisis and 5YL stories followed seamlessly after the pre-Crisis stories. The Lightning Saga Legion was introduced years and years after all the rest of it.
No, we understand it. It's just that we care about details like that a lot more than DC does. I figure, for any continuity change, if DC gets the broad strokes right and the intent is clear, then you don't sweat the details. But even with that attitude, I still can't swallow the Lightning Saga Legion as original...

The Pocket Universe is dust, so it's all moot, as are most Legion stories published after Crisis through Zero Hour, I imagine, unless they're spun off onto another Earth.

I detest what Byrne and TMK did, too, but the way I see it, Geoff Johns is doing much the same in the Lightning Saga by hijacking the originals to certify his newest Legion reboot. New Earth Hybrid Superman is to Mr. Johns what Pocket Universe Superboy was to Byrne and what Valor was to the TMK -- a square peg shoved into a round hole. It will never fit, no matter how they force it, imo.

I began reading the Legion before dirt was invented and still cherish the originals, but I'm sick to death of lies. The 3boots are not those guys, but that's perfectly okay with me because, being separate and distinct, they don't stink up the original characters and history. Unfortunately, based on what I've seen of the LS Legion, (their Karate Kid, Una, Starman, Wildfire and the old, ugly founders on the latest Action cover) I fear that's exactly what they're poised to do.

The thing is if they really wanted the originals they have the multiverse again. They could have just stuck the entire pre-crisis Earth-1 out there instead of sticking their heads back into the retcon morass. If you look at what they've done with most of the other major multiverse world's that's more or less what they've done.

If they really wanted to have a young modern superman/boy interact with kids from the future they should use new stories and continuity to do it, not play the game of Adventure 247 is in with the following changes... Adventure 267 is out.... yadda yadda yadda...

So who was Brainy's girlfriend for the 25 years of the Lightning Saga's continuity??? How can it be the original if there was no Supergirl robot in hotpants.

Personally I think all of this is going to be brought back. Yes even Insect Queen(groan). I think the original non-skanky Supergirl is going to return as well. And it still won't be the "original" Legion but I don't think the original Legion has been seen since their first appearance.

I mean half those issues in Adventure Brainy was blue anyways. For every retcon in Legion history we lost more of the "original".

Plus, if DC says it's the "original" than it is IMO.

That's like saying, "if DC says that Batman first appeared in Action Comics #1, then he did".

What is and is not original doesn't depend on what DC says; it depends on what is and isn't in published comic books. DC may own the characters but it doesn't own the definition of the word 'original'.

Luckily, I don't need DC to tell me how to think or to form an opinion.

Tamper and Tromium and Matthew E are more articulate at this discussion than me. But, I just find it comical how people will bash the 3boot and praise the "Lightning Saga" in the same breath.

You guys took that bait too easily and too literally. *sigh*

I knew I was going to get a "dc doesn't tell me what to tink" but the Batman in Action comics was suprising.

I just think it's funny what people think what the "original" Legion is. We don't have an original Superman anymore or Wonder Woman, or Batman despite them appearing in all those comics.

I think everyone has their own opinion on what the "original" Legion is. So are they publishing Geoff John's original Legion? Ultra Jorge's? Nightcrawlers? (personally I am hoping for the EDE original Legion mini).

Don't have DC tell you what to think. But I won't let a fan with a Manifesto tell me what to think either. No offense Matthew.

None taken. In fact, I hope I'm not telling anyone what to think, although I reserve the right to try to persuade them to think this or that.

I still don't understand what you are trying to get us to think.


I also think you guys are trying to draw conclusions about what the LS Legion is going to be before the facts are out...

So far I've seen nothing to indicate anything that I consider the original cannon can't exist...

StarBoy is schitzophrenic? He just never told anyone before...it doesn't really change his history or any stories than I can think of. Maybe if he had told Superboy this little tidbit Superboy would have been able to use that as a defense for him in the Nuhor killing...he didn't. Probably because it had nothing to do with his decision to kill Nuhor.


Wildfire is Red Tornado?

There are quite a few ways of interpreting that...

One, that the Erg1 suit or his LS containment suit, was built from the original Red Tornado body...and or Two, that they are both creatures with feeling trapped in unfeeling shells etc. Which they both are and have more or less always been characterized as being.

There are a lot of way to interpret that statement by Wildfire, but nothing that I see changes any of original cannon...if he's not Drake Burroughs...get back to me and we'll discuss it some more.

Karate Kid is alive? I think it's been indicated that they went back in time and saved him. I like that happening...I didn't like that they killed KK off anyway.


That the original JSA/JLA Legion crossover didn't happen? Ditto the B&B Batman/Legion and Batman/KK teamups? Maybe they still did and it was forgotten...either way, those are minor changes.


But so far nothing has been revealed that, in any way excludes any Legion story up to the COIE. A couple of minute changes...but nothing to actually erase any stories that I know of.

This obviously lops off the Pocket Universe stuff...which is fine by me, since that, and everything that came after, wasn't the orginal Legion to me anyway. And it never will be....

I just want the Legion that Jim Shooter and Paul Levitz wrote.

And for them to stay in mostly Bronze age costumes.

And for DC to undo the damage that crisis on infinite earths and John Byrne did to the Legion.

Yeah that's right, Lone Wolf, back when we two were the first members of the Legion academy, those were the days

I really see that the discussion is more complicated than I had assumed - cause everybody has his/her own opinion and nobody seems to think exactly the same about the last nearly 50 years of Legion...

Some are into it because of the feeling, some for the continuity, some for the nostalgia, some for the adventure and some for certain characters, like Superboy who seems to be very focussed on anything "super" - whereas I for example never cared much for any super-character (especially not for Super-Pets).

In the end, everybody has his own moment in Legion when "everything went downhill" - be that Pocket universe, Zero Hour or Threeboot.

Now with the impending changes - whichever those will be - I fear that DC has absolutely no chance to succeed cause even if Legion fandom is huge, it will be impossible to do a new book which will satisfy a large enough crowd to really let the book fly again!

They are trying to bring back certain elements and characters from the good old days when continuity was not that challenged yet - but they cannot explain it in a logical way! The only idea would be to go back to a certain point in history - say Magic Wars for example or Conspiracy - and either start there again - WITH a Super-Character - or let them age again and explain what happened in those years in this continuity.

But there seems to be no valid option to bring back Superboy(man(girl into the old continuity cause there have been so many crossovers that nothing seems to fit anymore.

I am very thrilled to see what will be happening with the old characters returning - but when I'm hearing "Wildfire is Red Tornado" (where was this said???), I definitely get a feeling of impending doom cause many Legion fans won't tolerate those irrational changes to begin with...

It was said in the "Lightning Saga" JLA/JSA crossover that Wildfire was somehow Red Tornado's body (Superman also claims that Wildfire's in a containment suit so there was either some sloppy writing, the "Wildfire is Red Tornado" thing happened after Superman used to hang with the team or Red Tornado's body is a "containment suit" of some kind)

In the final issue of the Lightning Saga, Meltzer has Wildfire remind Red Tornado they are the same person--John Smith. Their "bond" evidently goes beyond merely sharing the same shell. (Wildfire is Drake Burroughs, too, so they're some sort of combination character at this point, I guess.)

I don't think that.

Sure, there have been times when Legion comics haven't been that great... for instance, the issues just before, let's say, the Reflecto stuff in 1980; the Legion on the Run nonsense; some of the reboot stuff before DnA took over... but those times all came to an end.

Right now I'd say is as good a time as there is to be a Legion fan: DC is publishing two Legion comics a month and both of them are very good, there's more Legion content coming up in Supergirl and Countdown and Action Comics, the cartoon is going to start its second season soon, and a couple of weeks ago I walked into McDonald's and bought a Mano toy.

Imagine!

Whic is exactly why the guys who write the Legion don't post on this board and the artists who draw it do...


Would you believe there are still large and vocal segements of fandom that don't consider anything after the Adventure run as the original Legion?

Still active fans...still upset over changes made in the late 60's...


This is true...


But removing Superboy from the Legion was like removing Frodo Baggins from Lord of the Rings. It was that big of a move, and the only people who don't really view it that way were people that never read Lord of the Rings with Frodo in it.

The changes done to what I consider the original Legion were not made to improve the book, they did not add to the book, they stipped quite a bit from it...

They weren't done to benefit the Legion and I have yet to find a Legion creator to say that they were done for that reason...

They were not well recieved at all by the fan base, the Legion lost a large portion of it's audience...and it has never reclaimed them.

And everything since has been an attempt to fix that...and it hasn't worked.


To tell you the truth Chemical King...I have a hard time seeing why you don't like the W&K Version or the Archie versions...

Why don't you like those?


And I think that's a mistaken sentiment. The audience that likes the post boot versions doesn't support the book well enough to keep it in publication. That's not even considering that there are fans like myself that have bought almost all postboot versions of the Legion without really enjoying it...


I think they'll make the changes they want and call it the original and the fans that want that version will accept it.


But you need to understand something...the single defining trait between this LS Legion and the post boot Legions is that Superman was a member of it. That's why he's important.


Not that hard to accept since none of the stuff done since fits to most of the people that were fans back then.


They didn't change that original continuity because people didn't like it and didn't support it...that's why they have changed all the others.


At heart...DC is a business and it is sales of the fittest.


Oh sure they will...there will be fans like yourself that accept this new version and consider it cannon...no matter how ridiculous and unecessary the changes were.

As you said...every version has it's fans.


They could turn the Legion into SuperPets from Krypton and there would be someone that jumps on at that point and considers it to be the Real Legion...just like there has been for every other version...

The question is...will it sell 600 thousand to 80 thousand as the "Original versions did" or will it hemmorage readers every month and have cancellation only staved off byadding one of those annoying SuperCousins...


As for why Superboy is so important to us..

Well let's see...he was in the first Legion story. He was in the next 50 Legion stories...he was the lead feature in Adventure then shared it with the Legion, then ceded the title completely to the Legion.


Then he has his own title, that the Legion moved into as a backup, then shared adventures, then ceded that title to the Legion.

His entire supporting cast were members, in his final story(imaginary) as Superman, it was the Legion that showed up and gave him the hint to survive the forces alligned against him.


The only reason Superboy is not important to you...or should I say the main reason, is because you weren't a fan during that era...you were a fan that came after...but you became a fan of a Legion that had been gutted not for it's benefit...but for the benefit of John Byrne. And it is not out of publication now due to a creator whim, but because fans failed to support it to a degree that DC wished to continue in that direction. That was not true of the orginal Legion. It did not get changed because fans weren't supporting it. It got changed because Byrne didn't give a whit about the Legion.

Agree with that...Shooter's second run on the Legion wasn't exactly spectacular either.

There has been good stuff and there has been bad stuff done...but essentially, the Legion has struggled to be one of DC's most popular books, as it was prior to the TMK Legion.


It's a great time to be a Legion fan...but as Chemical King noted...there are going to be lots of arguments coming up.


DC just has to let them all exist...in this multiverse...but the one that's going to get the most pub is the one that sells the best. Do you doubt which one that will be? I don't. I know exactly which one it is going to be.


There's no way DC can appease all the various fans with one Legion...so they just have to leave multiple ones in the multiverse...and let the will of the Legion Fans choose the one that gets published. Who knows...they might all be able to maintain an audience.

They do have Legion toys at McDonalds USA? Well, they certainly don't in Germany. The cartoon has not been aired here yet and if it will be, you normally won't realize it because it will just drown somewhere in kiddie TV limbo. Never got hold of the Titans cartoon over here too.

As for the current books, yes, it seems to be the case that all the terrible Legion lows... Brainy with a monkey comes to mind, Reflecto and Dr. Mayavale, Emerald Dragon and Enya Wazzo (Phase?) and not to forget the silly "underagers" nonsense by Mark Waid... have passed. Still, their impact is still felt very strongly. I am looking forward to the return of the original Legion, but do very much see the trouble to explain their return in a logical, satisfying way. I am so hopeful that I currently am buying all this stuff - Countdown, Action, even the Bedard run - but I fear that if the 50th anniversary is over, there will be an all new Legion #1 book and the discussionms will start from the beginning... will there have been a deboot - a newboot - maybe a moon boot, I don't know but I'm pretty sure that many people still will not be happy, only the roles might be reversed...

At this point, I'll take any Legion that will give me back Laurel Kent, before she got retconned into a Manhunter robot.

Plus the Subs, Khunds, Mordru, Fatal Five, tryouts issues, etc. The classics.

Ironically, that's kind of how I feel about Superboy. He hasn't really been part of the team for ages (decades, even), and he was never really *part* of the team in any sense, always the standalone character who was 'visiting' the team from his 'real home.'

Conner Kent was vastly more interesting as a *character* to me (which his writers had to work at, since I had a knee-jerk* dislike to him to start). This is not a flaw in the original Superboy, so much as a statement about the complete lack of characterization that was endemic back when the character was being written. Back then, *none* of the characters had much 'depth' to them, their personalities shifting issue to issue to match the theme of the issue. Lightning Lad, Cosmic Boy, Ultra Boy, Mon-El, Sun Boy, all would utter the same sorts of lines, and even Brainiac 5 didn't seem to have a distinct personality yet. They were all pretty two-dimensional, and that was the norm.

Since then, most of the other Legionnaires have been fleshed, and can be said to have very clear mannerisms and modes of speech and action, and grown-up Clark Kent has as well, but the original Clark Kent Superboy hasn't been active, so he's never gotten the same sort of character development that modern viewers have come to expect from these characters. I'm not going to say that 'tastes have matured' or anything, they've just changed. We've come to expect more, and Clark Kent Superboy is the eternal changeless teenager, who, unlike the rest of the team, can't be shown growing or changing or even putting on another costume. He's the Legion's own 'Lost Boy,' a kid out of time.

Garth and Imra can grow up and have kids and still be Garth and Imra, but Superboy *can't* grow up, because when that happens, he becomes Superman, an entirely different iconic property (equally trapped by that trademark status, and unable to change his costume or hairstyle, or grow and develop significantly), and one that already exists and has for many decades.

Unfortunately, Supergirl *has* gotten this sort of updated characterization / development, but in several different and not-entirely-compatible directions, leaving readers reading the same comic month to month unsure as to exactly *which* Supergirl they are reading. Waid seems to have created yet another Supergirl to join this latest Legion, for that matter, further complicating a messed-up situation.


*I typically loathe replacement characters. Anybody who has a II in their name, any female character who is an exact copy of a male character with the codename ending in 'girl' instead of 'man,' etc. So characters like Conner Kent, She-Hulk or X-23 have an uphill struggle. I'm automatically turned off by the appearance of cashing in on a popular character by making teenaged versions, or of cheapening out on creating an interesting female character with unique powers and personality (like Storm or the Scarlet Witch) by instead just picking a male character and adding breasts (like Bat-Femme or Zatara's Daughter).

Canada, actually, not the U.S. Although the U.S. was also included in the promotion. If you're interested I hear they're available on eBay.

Set: Good analysis of Superboy; I hadn't really thought about it like that before.

I would actually have a hard time believing that. I imagine there are a few people who feel like that, but a) it's kind of a strange thing to be upset about*, even in the context of Legion fandom, b) that's a long time to stay upset, and c) I would be surprised if there were enough fans at all still active from the '60s to be considered a large segment.

Anyway, if I was DC I certainly wouldn't spend any time worrying about such people; anybody who's been nursing a grudge for forty years is more attached to the grudge than he or she could ever be attached to the comics at this point.

*I hope I'm not offending anybody here who may think this way. But I find the idea very difficult to entertain.

I agree with you, the Legion had something for everyone, and then they started trying to cut stuff out and eliminate it, and erase it..and the result was a largely miserable fan base many of whom just stopped reading. And now they have this fragmented fan base the likes of which seldom agree.

Superboy was always a part of the Legion I loved, the original Legion.

He was in it's first appearance, he was in it's last appearance. He was the most famous, the most important, and the foundation for the entire Legion. From day 1.

You are a fan of a Legion without him and I applaud that...DC has produced that product you like for along time now...and it doesn't sell as well, it doesn't hold it's audience.

I guess the difference between us...

I am not saying I want part of the Legion you liked eradicated...say Chemical King eliminated...

Others are saying that now, about a part of the Legion I like...and it's been given to them ad nauseum for the last 2 decades. It comes out every month.

This is true...

But factually, commercially, the point where it went downhill, the point where it's identity was lost was when they gutted it's history.


Welcome to my world....


Hey every has it's fans...but changing Mon-El into Superboy didn't kill one chracter...it killed two...to a much greater degree than tying Wildfire into Red Tornado.

There was still a Superboy in the Legion...he just wasn't the original, he was an imitation. And Mon-El, the most enigmatic and mysterious character, was gone.

IMO...Mon-El's mystique was how int he world did he survive a thousand years in the Phantom Zone while retaining his sanity...while still coming off as the boy next door...

I didn't want that explored...it wasn't meant to be explored, if DC made a series called Mon-El in the phantom zone...it would be quite possibly the most boring series ever put out.

And Mon-El didn't need to be Superboy, especially an imitation. He was a fine, intersting and highly beloved character in his own right...

If you are still going to have Superboy...isn't it better to have the real one? Instead of an imitation?


Well thanks for the long and thought out response...

I will adress one point you made...saying that if they make these huge changes no one will accept them...this board is full of people that did accept huge radical changes to the entire foundation. Someone one will accept it...it will be someone's favorite version...and sales cannot be hurt much more than they already are and have been.


I am not going to tell you that the version of the Legion you like is the wrong one, because it is the one you like...but I'll just say it's not the original one, it was vastly changed from the orginal concept and I feel this was a major reason for it's lack of success. Not just Superboy...but the whole aging, stuff...I don't think it had a mass appeal.


I don't really think that Legion had a history either...

For instance...what was Ultraboy's first appearance with that Legion in that continuity?

He didn't go back in time to the 20th century to meet Superboy like he originally did...

What was it? It was just a huge blank slate. It had no history other than the page devoted to it in issue #5 saying Mon-El replaced Superboy...without taking into account, who replaced Mon-El?


But you are right, the Legion did have something for everyone, which is why DC should be careful about cutting out huge swaths of it's history...you take away the something for everyone elements...you weaken the book. You fragment the fan base.

I think instead of DC trying to figure out what they should remove...they should be figuring out what to add...and how to do it the right way. In a story...rather than mass offpage continuity rewrites.

And every Legionaire is someone's favorite character...which is why killing them off or erasing them is something that should be handled with a great deal of care and thought.


In this case...Superboy was the most well known Legionaire, he was the most famous, he was the best one to attract new readers...and IMO, he was the most popular. Cutting him out severely reduced the Legion's mainstream and casual fan appeal.


The reason this book has lost so much of it's prestige is because a creator that didn't particularly care about it, was allowed to make huge radical changes to it.

Right now...the Legion doesn't have that much to lose by making these changes...back then, they had a lot to lose, and they lost it.

You mean aside from the first appearances of
Mordru, the Fatal Five, the Khunds, The Legion, and 90% of the original cast...you know, the classics.

You aren't seriously trying to argue that Superboy wasn't a major part of the Adventure run are you?

I mean come on. It basically revolved around him to the annoyance of many a Legion fan.


To me Superboy/Superman is the most original and interesting Superhero ever created...

It's all the others that are the imitations...if I put that lens on. Which I usually try to avoid.


Sure but that's not Superboy's fault.


Shooter, the guy who first put personalities on the Legion considers Superboy to be the most important one...he also considers him to be the most complex...I am not sure if I agre with that, but I agree he was the most important one.

Superman is one of the most recognizable characters ever created...how many of the Legionaires can make that claim?

You want a Legion without mass appeal?

You got one. You've had one for a long time.

I am fine with everything you said except I just don't agree with Superboy's place in the Legion...


He's not supposed to be just another Legionaire...
He's supposed to be the ultimate Legionaire, the archetype, the icon. You know...what he actually is, in the comics world, inside and outside of it.

Basically the same things the post boot Mon-El was trying to be...only Superboy is the real thing. He actually is the one that grows up to be the greatest Superhero of them all...and the Legion is supposed to be part of the reason why.

And they got this impossible chance to hang out with him and meet him. He instantly sets them apart from any other teen group...any other SuperTeam.

You don't think Marvel would give their left nut to stick him the X-Men? No matter how hokey he is?

They would...they've been trying to copy Superman for years, they just can't succeed at it.

He was never supposed to be just another Legionaire...they didn't travel a thousand years back in time to recruit him because he was just another Superhero.

As for the characterization and stuff...I wouldn't devote much time to characterizing Superboy...he's Superman almost, his character his secondary to his purpose...which is becoming the greatest Superhero of all time. He doesn't have the same quirks and weaknesses most people do...that's why he's inspiriational to them.


Eh...Connor was his own character, but to me he's not a true Legionaire...he's a Titan. Superman was the Legionaire...from day 1 of the Legion's existence. He was there.

I agree Connor is basically just another Legionaire...at which point, why is he needed? We already had Ultraboy.


Superman and Superboy are not ever going to be a post modern characters...he's always going to be iconic...that is the purpose he served. That is one of the major things that made the Legion special. That made it more than just another SuperTeam.

Mon-El, his cosume, do not conjure those images in my head, nor do they do it to the average fan...the S Shield does. It is part of the greatest canon in comics, the Legion was always a part of it, except for this exteneded down period...and why would you want an imitation, when you can have the real thing?

The fact is none of us are going to change the other ones minds...we all know this in our hearts. This arguing will never solve anything...you can't make someone like something they don't...

I am just voicing my opinion because, I think the Legion you guys want, is a whole lot like the one we've been given for a long long time now....I know DC creators read this board, and I want to make sure my opinion is heard this time around.

I like time travel stories, I like sci-fi stories instead of character pieces, I don't read comics to watch characters grow old...

DC, some Legion Fans love the Legion being tied to Superman and his mythos...to some Legion fans, that is and will always be the original Legion, the true Legion. How about giving us a Legion we like for a change...Publish them both. With and without, and let the fans read what they want.

There are.

I wouldn't describe it as being upset...I mean who are they going to be upset with? All the people responsible are dead or out of the industry.

It's more like, they don't accept any other Legions and I am not surprised you have a hard time understanding that...you tend to like all versions so the mindset is probably not one you are used too.

It's not even that they want the Legion fixed, they pretty much don't think it can be...but they are still Legion Fans who are very active with their Legion Fandom.


LOL, you seriously underestimate the tenacity of Legion fans...these are the same people that refused to let the Legion get canceled. They were among the first organized fandom in all of comicdom.


Matt...you realize that Superboy sold 500k copies a month back then, the Legion around 400k...

IF just 1pct of them are still active, that's a huge sales bump in todays industry.


And again...one of those fans back then was Paul Levitz, another was Keith Giffen, still another was Mark Waid and nother was George Perez and so on and so forth.


And if I was DC I'd be trying to figure out how to sell more books rather than teaching my fanbase a lesson.

Eh...I don't think it's possible to discuss the various versions of the Legion without offending someone in someway...you do a better job of avoiding that sort of insensitivity than most IMO...including myself. That doesn't mean I agree with your stance that all Legions are equal though And I don't really think DC does either...since they can't publish things that don't appeal to a decent sized returning audience.

Wow you are a very busy poster here Are you an a holiday just like me?

You said a lot of interesting things, many of them very true. I just want to add that for me, it's not about liking a Legion WITH Superboy OR one WITHOUT Superboy - I liked them BOTH. And if your apply to DC about publishing both version would be heard, I would very much rather take the new book WITH a Superboy (as long as he comes along with the classic Legion characters) than the current Threeboot version, even if it finally got a little more coherent after only 25 issues.

So to clear this up: I liked the whole Legion history UNTIL Zero Hour. I like the 70s with Superboy, I like the 80s when he was only a guest star, I liked 5YL for reasons I mentioned above. I am probably more tolerant to continuity changes as long as they only BEND history... I get very angry when they start ERASING the whole of it. So I could very much live with Valor (even if the continuity holes you are pointing out are probably correct), but I could NOT live with everything being wiped out for the Archie run. I was devastated back then.

As for Superboy being original and interesting: I give you that, he is by definition the "original" Superhero, he (or his adult ego) was the first out there. But I never thought he was interesting. Maybe that's because he just was not WRITTEN in an interesting way - but to me, he always seemed like the ultimate boy scout, and that includes Superman who never had any appeal to me as well (so as for Justice League, I rather like the runs without him as a member).

The problem might be that he was written out to be a regular cast member before the Levitz run - so when Levitz finally started to give the Legionnaires their own characterization, he was absent. he only got the "true 80s treatment" in "The greatest hero of them all", which I haven't read in along time but I recollect to be rather good. But that was PU Superboy already, so he does not count for you

In the end, I would take any return to the BC Legion anytime, even if it meant that I had to loose PC Baxter and 5YL. I loved to see the characters growing up - one of the major differences between us - but I would take any version in which my personal Legion bible - called "Secrets of the Legion mini-series" - would become official Legion history again. This mini sums up everything that is great about the Legion - and is a great jump-on point for readers who want to jump into the Levitz run thereafter.

It's not so much that I think that all Legions are equal... They're fictional characters; who cares if they're equal or not? It's more that I think that all Legion fans are equal. Some people are fans of the original Legion only and some are fans of the threeboot Legion only. I don't think either of those groups should be privileged over the other; I think all Legion fans should be able to read about their preferred version of the Legion. I don't know how DC could accomplish that, but I do know that they're not going to do it by (for instance) keeping the 5YL and SW6 stuff out of continuity.

Yeah but the reaility is the larger audience is more important to DC...and to them a young large audience is better than an aging one.


I can call the new Legions failures, because they weren't popular with their intended audience...new younger readers, and the older audience is generally irate.


Even still...
I'd be willing to bet that the majority of all Legion Fans to this very day, are the old audience that DC screwed over years ago in pursuit of a Marvel audience for Superman.

SO no they aren't all equal and understandably so...I mean the Legion audeince isn't as important as the JSA or Titans audience now. Because it's smaller.

And I think DC could easily erase most of the stuff from the past 20 years with little or no sales change, because the bulk of this audience is the old Legion audience...this book doesn't appeal to a large young audience, and it's not because the old audience won't let go of the past...it's just because it doesn't have a mass appeal as the original did...to old fans, or to new.

Tehy are not equal and in the eyes of DC, not all fans are equal either, if they were, DC wouldn't have allowed the Legion audience to get trampled as they did...


That audience was the original direct market audience and they paid a premium price to read the Legion, and they supported the book, and the failure of all Legions since is directly tied to DC's screwing that audience over, not to mention being a largely unattractive book to the younger audience they sought...because there is no gateway character to newer readers.

It'd be nice if everyone's favorite book could be published endlessly and all fansbases could and would be respected equally, but it's just not a realistic expectation...on either side. I mean if the fans of the TMK Version were equal to the Original in terms of $$$...we'd still be reading the TMK version and this discussion wouldn't be needed.

Well, I did not really remember Superboy being a major part in the Levitz run - I'll have to reread it anyway, so I guess I just forgot about Superboy due to the mentioned reasons.

I very much like your "Gateway character" analysis. Even though I never cared much for those, obviously other people need a major hero to get into a book, which would be a rather psychological question as to why that is. I absolutely agree that as far as sales are concerned, it will always be an intelligent way to put a franchise character on the cover to get people to buy the book who normally wouldn't...

I'm not sure if all seasons were/will be shown since I never became a fan of the show, but I remember the dub actually being pretty good (unlike the terrible Transformers Armada one), if that passes for a comment...


Actually, considering Legion fans are vying with Transformers ones over first place in the categories of pettiness and blind nostalgia, this casual fan can easily imagine that.

...actually a nice comparison.
LSH started out with a wobbly continuity and usually plain stupid dickery, then matured, then had a couple of distinct cuts (PU, Valor), then got rebooted, then got rebooted again.
Transformers has Generation 1 with its couple of continuity hick-ups and usually not too deep of a story (with exceptions) which lasted how long? End of US series? End of Japanese continuity (during which it at first became deeper and then became increasingly weird)? Some point between sub-series at which it derived too much from the original? Fans opinions differ. Then there was the Beast Wars reboot that saved a terrible concept by excellent execution (and begat the more humorous Japanese series that led into the slapstick Car Robots). And then there was the Unicron Trilogy reboot that was the most shameless toy commercial of them all (not that the other weren't essentially, but they managed to overdo it) whose continuity got screwed up because TakaTomy failed to put any kind of leash on the animation studio which suddenly felt the need to go artistic for the third series. ...And the movie is a Bay movie with all the good action and lack of characterization that comes with it. A different director for #2. Please!

Okay, that paragraphe became a bit long. Just to get my opinion/stance out quickly because I have to get home packing ASAP.
My siblings had exactly three super-hero comics. One issue of Batman that centered around Bruce visiting (the opening of?) some casino island, one of Superman (which started with Supes and Lois in bed and had a cool ad at the end (next issue, probably. trapped in the Phantom Zone? maybe)) and a small Legion paperback with I think two stories as well as a character guide (I distinctly remember Invisible Kid and Duo Damsel) and an ad about a fight against the Legion of Super-Villains at the back. They kept disappearing in the depths of my cupboards, but were some of my most treasured (and whenever found most (re)read) belongings as a child, especially the LSH one.
So yes, I have a special place in my heart for the original Legion (whatever that's supposed to encase) and like 'em all, but the one that actually got me into it was the Threeboot (more due to timing than anything else) of which I love the premise despise flaws in execution. However, "my" Legion is the Postboot one despite retellings and snakifications.

On a side note, around the same time I read the backissues of Teen Titans, which led me to torrenting Young Justice - and how should I put it - I like most stuff by Johns I've read to date, but aside from the Titans of Tomorrow arc his stint on the book in my opinion deserves no praise aside from mysteriously turning the Titans brand into a valuable one again. Looking at current stuff like Blue Beetle or Manhunter as well as older books like Impulse and Batgirl (and Robin back when it was good (up to about Gangwars)), my tastes don't sell, I guess.

Where was I?
I would love the regular title as well as a Lightning Saga Legion mini and a post-ZH Legion mini leading into the Legion of Three Worlds event. (Think the Annihilation template. Though prior to that post-ZH should get some kind of exposure again as well. A mini seperating LL and EL again or something. Ideally DnA-written, of course.) Ideally, the market should be able to support three books (plus the toon one) at least for a while afterwards (until they get canceled one after another). And I'd buy all three until a respective writer manages to piss me off.
Either way, hype doesn't generate itself, so DC marketing should do SOMETHING for a change.

Actually, to create hunger for more Legion Johns's stuff should be the perfect entry drug from which good comic readers should then branch of into the other Legion titles, but that's me dreaming of the majority looking to at least sample outside of their little selection of titles. Not that I'm that much better than the mainstream.

...discussion currently centers around the neccessity of Superboy, doesn't it? There are some great Superman stories, but I just can't make myself care for Supes outside of Kingdom Come. That said, I don't actually mind having him on a team, Legion or otherwise, though I prefer him off. However, as mentioned he's a great draw for new readers so the classic formula of a strong connection, but only occasional team-ups would IMHO be the best. Which I guess is what I was writing about in the paragraphe just above.


Also, DC's current golden boy calls it the original, so editorial treats it as such and if contrary to expectations it fails despite Johns's name on it, possibly your last chance at something resembling whatever you consider original will be gone, so I'd advice not to get lost in semantics and instead try to enjoy the ride, but that's just me.

And something people everywhere keep forgetting because DC doesn't remind them often enough - there's a new Earth-1 out there on which the probability is high that all the pre-Crisis stuff still happened unaffected by modern rewrites until someone decides to wreak havoc there ('though don't ask me if their Flash is dead too, Supergirl should be). Multiverse = New Earth + Earths 1 through 51 + One Anti-Matter Universe + The Bleed + New Gods. I've seen posts considering E1 and NE the same often enough (including at least one in this thread), thus this reminder.

Which come to think about it, really makes me want the Lightning Saga Legion to include adjusted continuity of the whole Preboot area.
I just hope they are *not* from Earth-2. Any of the new ones are fine, but please not one of the original three or others based on previous work. Give all the current three Legions an Earth of their own and everything's fine in my book.


Anyway, concerning the solicits: Yes, Cosmic Boy looks fugly in both, but such is life...


Quickly, I said? I fail at life. Also not exactly too coherent and I have the nagging feeling I forgot something... Oh well, I'm off.

Isn't that cool? Most of the modern Legion creators have read and posted (minimally at least) here and we always treat them with respect and try hard to treat them as old friends. ALL Legion fans are welcome here.
BUT
That's NOT the coolest thing about LW, that particular kudo belongs to the posters who are so obviously passionate about the book(s) and our depth of affection for the rich field of characters tha6t people the stories.

I think this is a wonderful discussion and I'd like to thank everyone that's given so much thought to so many aspects of Legion history.

..as far as the retcons go I feel the the most fantastic of the lot was the TMK Andromeda. Wow. An adult (almost) Supergirl with the power and confidence that an adult Kryptonian (in this case Daxamite) ought to have. Of all the retcons she's the one I miss most.

You saw that too, huh...

I'm on the fence; Not my favorite storyline, but it's half-off and I wanna support this LSH...

I just took a not-so wild guess it would be 50% off.

Their September solicits are up, and your guess is correct.

Yup, the 'Wolverine' paradigm. If we put him on the cover, people will buy the book.

My point above was that Superboy, as a product of an earlier style of writing, never got as much character development as the team-members that continued to be presented later. To some, this could be seen as a 'plus,' since he's apparently quite popular as a personality-free boy scout drone, but I tend to prefer characters to have a little more... character. His presentation in the Legion, IMO, proved to be both a disservice to the character, and to the team, just as an appearance by Wolverine in, say, the Avengers, similarly serves only as a gimmick, and neither serves to strengthen the Avengers franchise, nor the Wolverine character. It's just a cold-blooded marketing tactic to increase sales by targetting compleatist fanboys who must have every appearance of Wolverine.

While this may seem like a contrary position, I think that Superboy was ill-served by being trotted around and kludged into a team book that he was ill-suited towards, to prop up sales (the same applies, but far more so, towards Supergirl, who is even *less* suited towards that use, IMO, as she's far less integral to the Legion as a concept, and seemed almost like she was thrown there as an afterthought in the early days, and served only as a cheap 'stunt-casting'
gimmick in the WaK run, like Wolverine in the Avengers).

So, the short-short version. I think that *Superboy* deserved better treatment. The character was treated as a property to prop up a book derived from his own title.

Saying that Superboy has to show up to 'carry water' for the 'super-teens from the future' who were introduced in his book would be like requiring Batman to show up in every single issue of Birds of Prey, because they were all Batman-derived characters introduced in his books.

I do not in any case want a retconned Legion that has never been inspired by Superboy/man, nor met him, nor had adventures with him, which apparently was some sort of Byrne thing I've never even heard of (I didn't know that Byrne ever even wrote the Legion! It must have been one of the reboots I skipped.). That way lies much character destruction, and I'm for including as much of the core continuity, not subtracting it.

He didn't write the Legion; he wrote Superman. And he revised Superman so that there was no Superboy or Legion in his past. The Legion writers had to follow suit.

Is that the Man of Steel thing? I actually have that and enjoyed it, and while the six issue limited series (IIRC) didn't specifically mention the Legion, or almost all of Superman's classic villains, for that matter, it didn't say that they never existed either.

It seemed to me like touched up out-takes from Superman's early life, not a definitive 'nothing I haven't shown has ever happened to Clark, ever' proclamation. Heck, only select snapshots of his life were shown, with the *vast* majority of it being skipped over by the mini-series, and I never got the impression that nothing at all happened in his life during the 'gaps!'

Now that I think back, Byrne himself has gone back and filled in stuff, adding the Ultra-Humanite to the early roster, for example, so I'm not sure where the idea that anything he didn't write in the initial mini-series didn't happen came from.

Regardless, even if Byrne had specifically somehow written the Legion / Superman connection out of existence, along with the other 16 and a half years not shown in the Man of Steel limited series, there's no reason why the Legion writers couldn't still have had the team *inspired* by this example of legendary heroism from the 20th century, and kept the team recognizable, without 'rebooting' and turning Projectra into a snake or whatever, which, IMO, has *nothing* to do with Byrne's touching up of Superman.

(As for Byrne himself, I feel dirty for even defending him, since he's a misogynistic nutbar, but I like his clean artwork, and don't see any reason to blame him for the reboot that brought us Jarth and LeViathan and Monstress...)

It seems to me that it was purely a Legion writers decision / faux pas to try and pass off Mon-El / Valor, and later Femme-Elle (Andromeda) as the iconic 'Superman' figure, in addition to the raft of other changes.

In the Newsrama article, Jim Shooter specifically points out the enormous advantage of working on a title set 1000 years after standard DC continuity, and thus not being creatively straightjacketed by what is going on in the rest of the 'shared universe.' It seems to me that someone, could be editorial, could be at the writer level, missed that back during the Man of Steel days, and decided to allow a limited series re-depicting a snapshot of about 4 days of Superman's early life, which didn't happen to include a portrayal of the Legion, to mutilate the Legion universe.

Byrne didn't show Lori Lemaris either, to my recollection, and yet Atlantis still exists, apparently un-mangled by Byrne's ommision. Didn't they get the memo?

Byrnes decision to write Superboy out of existence made everything more difficult for Legion continuity.

Still, why suddenly the Pocket universe explanation no longer was good enough and TPTB forced given to substitute Superboy with Valor I never really understood.

They messed it up without good reasons. Somewhen late in the DnA run, they suddenly brought a Superboy to the 31st century again (without any need again) and challenged this second continuity (which I never accepted in the beginning so I did not care) again.

Today, DC can't even mention the name "Superboy" due to the lawsuit with the Siegels - so if Superboy would have been reintroduced into the Legion continuity, maybe they would have to write him out AGAIN today?

I guess it's really not Byrne alone who is to blame. But his Superboy decision started a fire which keeps on devouring the Legion for 20 years... resulting in at least 13 years of unsatisfying stories.

Wellll, to be fair, they could have had 13 years of unsatisfying stories even with Superboy.

I can't really agree with the 13 years thing though. I really liked DnA's run and I get a good chuckle out of a few of the post ZH even if I don't find any of the story arcs particularly memorable.

If you can believe Giffen (and other sources), it was Mike Carlin who required Superboy to be wiped from existence, refused to let any other character have any connection to Superman/Krypton/El (hence the Mon-El name had to go). This was the "Cultural Revolution" phase of Superman as the true last son of Krypton. This was after Byrne had stopped working on Superman, even, I think (although it was Byrne's idea for the reboot Supes to NOT have been SuperBOY).

According to Giffen, Keith was struggling to maintain as much of Legion history intact without Superboy or ANY connection to Superman. In haste, he hit on the idea of Lar Gand filling the Superboy shoes. Of course, from a character point of view, this was a bad fit, since Lar was always a reluctant hero (I imagine Keith would admit as much). Keith only created Laurel to fill the Supergirl "hole" in Legion history and didn't particularly like the character, which explains why they killed her when it was convenient. To hear Giffen's version, he did all of this practically overnight before the publication of LSH v4 #3 and 4.

The fact that all of this was a jury-rigged job, and various creative teams kept tinkering with Valor and Glorith, and the Legion got run into the ground as a bunch of geriatric fugitives, led to the idea of the reboot at Zero Hour.

Just currently rereading v.4, I really keep on wondering why they made it so hard for Giffen to actually succeed with his endeavour - first letting him have a go with the 5YL and after just four issues forcing him to retcon Valor as Superboy... I really think that these issues (until Earth explodes) are one hell of a satisfying read, I think it's the fourth or fifth time I am rereading them over the years and there's hardly a comic aside from Sandman or Watchmen that's as intellectually stimulating as this run. So much happening, so many background informations. Gave the run to a non-Legion fan some time ago and he totally digged it although he rather prefers indie comics.

So the McCraw run certainly was a letdown, but I guess today, they woulod find a different solution but to reboot it from scratch - considering that neither reboot was a big success in the long run...

@Blockade Boy: Yes, the DnA run was okay, probably the only Legion stuff since ZH that I would even consider to reread ONCE. It suffered from the fact that (like Shooter now), the writers had to take over a rather lame continuity with characters like Monstress and XS... but they did well.

Shooter has it much easier now cause Threeboot characters are hardly fleshed out so he can get away with practically everything...

I agree with the King. The 5YL Giffen and even the Bierbaum stories are just about my favorite and really redeemed the Legion in my eyes after the previous run. I even like the stories after the destruction of Earth and was sad to see it end. Didn't have much use for the Legionaries offshoot though.
Really, all this talk of purity and continuity seems like sour grapes. It seems like some folks want the Legion to be the same as it was in the mid-seventies. And granted, as a kid I fell in love with them then but I want to see some progress, otherwise none of the characters develop and the Fatal Five just keep escaping from Takron Galtos.

I would be super-happy to see a version in which the Legion had aged naturally, were all in their 60s or 70s, probably mostly retired with a ton of new characters, children of the Legion, etc. It just seems like there's a lot of potential there.

I'm fine with multiple versions of the Legion as well. Basically I want a good story. I could care less if Superboy is around. I always thought his membership to be gimickey. Fine for the 50s and tolerable in the 70s but I wasn't bothered in the least to see him fazed out. I couldn't care less about skin-tight, gaudy, unrealistic costumes. I loved what Giffen did with them towards the end of the original run and was happy not to see the silly costumes reappear after the five year gap. I mean really, who wears the same thing every day and what purpose would they serve except to make villans laugh themselves to death?

I have to say the current run hasn't really done a hell of a lot for me. I've liked it off and on but for some reason it just feels a little flat although the last few issues I've somewhat enjoyed. I'm curious to see what's in store with Shooter's run. I am also intrigued with the Action Comics version. I like the updated costumes. Gary Frank may draw everyone's irises too small and their teeth too buck but damn can that guy draw realistic looking, detailed costumes that don't look like they were spray-painted on.

The legal issues surrounding the name Superboy make things difficult for everyone. It makes the animated show sound... um, odd and probably helped stagnate Smallville (although the horrendous writing and the vile Kristen Kruek can probably take the blame for most of that)

ACTION COMICS #859 (variant cover)

Written by Geoff Johns, art by Gary Frank and Jonathan Sibal, cover by Frank, variant cover by Andy Kubert.

The return of the original Legion of Super-Heroes continues! The Man of Steel's jump to the future is anything but idyllic as he finds a world torn apart by strife and a populace that has turned on the Legion of Super-Heroes -- and it's all because of Superman! But what went wrong, and how can Superman begin to fix it when he's Public Enemy #1?

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Nov. 21.

Here's the regular cover. Didn't see it get posted anywhere and I finally received my books from last week today.

I'd seen the image, with no mention of it being the regular cover.

As DCBS didn't solicit the variant, I'm guessing they'll include it in random orders. They did that with UMBRELLA ACADEMY #1; I got lucky because I'd ordered two copies @$.74, and ended up with one of each.

I prefer the regular ACTION cover. If I end up with the variant, I'll trade ya, Scooter.

You got a deal Pov! I got my usual two copies and both are the regular one. I even asked Cameron and he said there was no variant planned or listed by Diamond.

I wanted the variant, got the regular. My CBS said no variant was shipped or available.

I think I'd prefer the regular. Damn if I can ever remember that there's two covers when I'm in the comic book store though...

There is supposed to be two covers for each issue of this arc. So just keep an eye open. Although I would like to know what happened with the scheduled one for #859. Got the one for #858 and have pre-ordered #860-861.

Sorry, bud, I ended up with the regular grafitti'd statues cover. I'll keep an eye out elsewhere.

I've only seen the cover on eBay. So it is out there.

I have both covers. I have to pay $9.99 for the chase one, though.

I just grabbed three copies off eBay, about $7.31 each, including shipping. Ones for you Bri.