I guess when I started reading about the Legion I was younger than them. I've stated that the half of the Teen Titans aren't teens currently. That I prefer a range from teenagers to young adults.

The thing is...when did the Legion stop being "teens"?

For me it was the Grell/Cockrum days. Before that they surely seemed like little teens but after they were quite manly/womanly teens.

Why is DC concentrating on the pre-Cockrum Legion? I know that Legion was very popular but so was the Cockrum and Levitz which were much different.

Any thoughts why DC(or Waid?) focuses on the silver age legion so much? thanks.

Jorge

Because it's what he grew up with, so to him, it's the only real Legion. Lots of people think like that, and not just about the Legion, either. They want everything to be exactly the way it was when they first encountered it (except for changes which they make to it, of course, which are suspiciously allowed). John Byrne thinks that Spider-Man should still be in high school. Never mind the fact that it was Stan Lee who had him graduate and Stan Lee who had him get married, Byrne thinks that Spider-Man's co-creator is wrong, which is pretty arrogant. If anyone is qualified to tell the story of Spider-Man's life (as opposed to one point in his life over and over again), it's Stan Lee.

That's why the people behind the reboot made the Legion teenagers again. They took what should have been an incidental detail and hung their hat on it. Even the Teen Titans were allowed to grow up, and they had "teen" in their name. For some strange reason, certain people think that's essential to the Legion just like Byrne thinks it's essential to Spider-Man. Myself, I think that they missed the boat entirely if that's what the Legion means to them.

Well, back in the 50's & 60's it was probably a good draw that the Legion was made up of teens, since the majority of readers back then were that age or younger. If I was nine years old reading about a team of non-sidekick heroes out on their own with no "adult" around then I imagine I would've thought that was cool. Nowadays the concept of independent teen heroes has no novelty left at all and most the average reader is older now than they were then. Personally speaking, I have a family and a mortgage and a job. A team of Legion made up of teenagers isn't nearly so relevant to me these days. A scene in early V4 with Imra worrying about a delayed shipment of produce and what it's going to cost them is much more relevant to my life these days than a trip to the 9 Planets Ice Cream shop.

On the other hand, I don't need too much "real-life" drama in the Legion. I get enough of that anyway.

I agree.

When I started reading LSH, they were clearly young adults, but still had kid names. didn't like that.

v4, despite not being everyone's cup of tea, did show that these young hereos we grew up with had come of age. I for one wish this had been explored better than it had.

for now, though, I'd like to see the current Legion be young adults again.

When did the Legion stop being teens?

Jorge is right in that the process started with Bates/Cockrum. They treated the Legionnaires as if they were older without coming right out and saying it. The first indication I recall that the heroes had in fact aged was in SUPERBOY/LEGION # 235, when Paul Levitz went to great lengths to explain that adolescence is prolonged well into adulthood by the 30th century and that the Legion had to regularly brainwash Superboy to prevent him from asking obvious questions.

By the time Levitz returned as writer a few years later, it was all but acknowleged that many years had passed since the Legion's founding and that the older members were in the late 20s, at least. In 1989, he co-authored a role-playing book for Mayfair Games, in which the Legion's chronology was spelled out (though unofficially, since it never made it into the comic books until the Five Years Later era).

I've always liked the idea of the Legionnaires aging at regular intervals, rather like the characters in "Gasoline Alley." The Legion is one of the few ongoing comic book series where this touch of realism is feasible, since the Legion doesn't take place in the present day.

As mentioned above, however, aging the Legion did present certain problems, such as the characters continuing to use "Lad" and "Lass" codenames, and the membership of the still adolescent Superboy. But these problems were secondary, I thought, to the benefits of aging the Legion, namely it added depth to the Legion through the use of chronology and real-life events such as marriage, retirement, etc.

I guess the next question becomes when does aging go too far? The Five Years Later Legion was depicted as being in their 30s, with problems of adulthood such as the running the Ranzz farm, as mentioned above. That may not be what many younger comics fans want to read about on a regular basis. Taken to the next step, would we want to read about 60-year-old Legionnaires still taking on the Fatal Five?

I would love it if the Legionnaires were allowed to age at a slower, but definite, rate. But then I'm a sucker for chronologies and history. From a practical standpoint, I can understand why DC keeps the Legion in a non-specified age range. They don't want to limit their potential audience by saying, yes, they are teens or no, they are not.

Given the state of technology in the 31st century, what would qualify as old age? It could be that 60 year olds are as fit as 20 year olds. I suspect the concepts of young ans old will have changed greatly by then.

When I starteed reading the Legionnaires were alredy adults, so I've never really thought that being teenagers was important to the story. I'd prefer it if they gained a few years.

He Who Wanders,

I agree with everything you said. I don't mind teenagers really just not all of them stuck as teenagers. It seems you have to be a teenaged white human to join.

I brought up the range of ages in a previous post. Like Gasoline Alley it would be cool to have the Legion grow old and be replaced by others. To tell the truth if Star Boy(Man) Thom Kallor retires and is replaced by a young new teenage Star Boy...would it be such a big deal? Rokk replaced by his younger brother? And some members staying despite their age...guys like Jo, Brainy, Cham, etc.

I'm not anti-teenagers just wondering if it's such a big part of the Legion. Because it seems like they teens for a bit over a decade and then young adults for over 20 years.

I have this fear Waid's Legion is going to bank on the teen aspect even more...it scares me.

Jorge

Jorge,

I get the feeling that the Legion being teens has more to do with their target audience than being a necessary component of the Legion as a concept. DC seems to want them (and the Titans) to appeal mostly to teenagers.

Plus, when you've got established, trademarked names like Cosmic Boy and Saturn Girl, it's easier to make them teens than to try to explain why adults are using them.

I'm not sure I would favor the team being replaced wholesale by younger members/off-springs, etc. This was tried, more or less, with the Justice Society/Infinity Inc. While the idea of having a second generation of heroes is a good one, sooner or later we'd miss the original characters. (To wit: the continued presence of the Golden Age Green Lantern, Flash, Wildcat, et. al. in JSA, even though they must be pushing 90.)

And, although Gasoline Alley showed the way with regards to characters aging, they didn't go the next step, by allowing death to claim the oldest members. At some point, it was establishd that Walt Wallet was born in 1893. He's still pretty spry for a 111-year-old.

I hear ya' loud an' clear, Matlock!

And for the record, I'd prefer the nebulous "youth" of the far-flung future. Being stuck in their teens is so limiting, literally and figuratively.

I Think...If The writers non put The legion into the infamous Zero Hour Saga....
We have two teams
The real adult Legion, with Spider Girl,The Ayla-Vi couple,Infectious Lass and all the old characters wich we loved.
And a young a fresh Legionaires, almost the same in the current continuity, but with Dyrk as Inferno,Gim, Tenzil,Laurel and more.
But the writers has brillants ideas and all the heroes of my life died or dissapear in the limbo like Projectra, Mysa, Catspaw...
I only hope the new reload has to be very good, and without silly ideas like the sensor snake,Monstress,and the Jan/Garth combo.
Long Live to The Legion!

to me this is the one major problem with allowing comic book characters to age. The hoops writers have had to go through to justify the old men of the JSA to still remain active has at times stretched suspension of disbelief to almost breaking point. It seems as if most people want the legion to remain fairly young, yet to allow them to age will soon put them into a post ion where a reboot or some such will be needed to de age them again. Far better to just say they are young and leave it at that.

I think I know where you are coming from on this one Jorge, but to me it would matter. To me Star boy IS Thom Kallor and Rokk cannot be replaced, only his powers can be duplicated.

I think if we asked this question about Superman, ie does it really matter if he is replaced by his son then the answer would be a resounding No, as superman is superman. So the legion is the legion not a next generation wannabe.

It would matter very much to me, too. The identities of the Legionnaires are sacrosanct to me, and their youth is what sets them apart from most other super-hero teams. Agewise, the ideal range is about 17-21 (as they appear to be now). The Legionnaires should age, but very, very slowly and only when storytelling demands it. I'm in no hurry to see them as decrepit 30-something fogeys again.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jorge Martinez:
[QB] I guess when I started reading about the Legion I was younger than them. I've stated that the half of the Teen Titans aren't teens currently. That I prefer a range from teenagers to young adults.

For me it was the Grell/Cockrum days. Before that they surely seemed like little teens but after they were quite manly/womanly teens.

Any thoughts why DC(or Waid?) focuses on the silver age legion so much? thanks.[QUOTE]

I don't think DC or Waid is in any way focusing on the Silver Age Legion. What they did was go back to the beginning - which is when they were teens. Theoretically, they could advance to become adults at some point, so why not start them out younger?

The problem with this approach, though, is that every creative team that comes on the Legion could reboot it from scratch.

Forget aging the characters. There's no sense in longterm continuity if every team gets to do a wholesale jumpstart on the Legion.

It's just like growing up with childhood friends, or even your high school gang. You end up attached to those characters. If you stick by them while they're growing up, then they'll still seem real to you as long as they're written and characterized well, and you still love the stories. But you'll still be able to relate to them as they are. But sometimes you want to remember the old days, and that's what all your old comic books are for. So in the end, you accept that they have to move on, but you can't help wishing that things could go back to the way they were when you were young.

I know I'll get slammed or rolled eyes at for this one but........

I really rather enjoyed the pre boot time line when the Legionaires (cloned versions) were with us. It's almost as if the Adult LSH were on their way to becoming a reality but with the newly "born" clones as very young teens it just gave the 30th Century the best of both worlds for us to read about!!

I know that DC thought it was all too convoluted but I thought it was very dynamic and it was just beginning to work well when it all came to a screaching halt. In time some younger members would have left, as would some adult members and the resulting team would be a mix of the younger learning from the remaining adult Legionaires.

I also thought the idea of the Earth being rebuilt was really cool too. There was some really cool stuff going on and then DC had to pull the plug and reduce everything back to an earlier time. For what?? I thought it was, and still do think it was, a total cop out!

I say let the LSH age! Age them slowly as Paul Levitz had devised in the game book. Just wish that Waid would undo the reboot somehow and take us to where we would have been if this all hadn't happened.

I know this will get debated (or maybe even completely ignored) but you know I'm entitled to my opinion and it's only a wish and it's not going to happen so I'm good with what will be. It's Mark's and Barry's game now so we will just have to wait and see!

No, it's not particularly necessary. Yes, it's particularly nice to have them start out as teens, but the charm in the old Legion was in seeing it change as it aged. Look at the Shooter Legion and compare it with the Levitz or TMK Legion; they're incredibly different, but they're both the Legion. Plus, the problems with teens, despite what the WB and television in general would have you believe, is that they're not nearly as interesting as older characters. Give me a middle aged Scrooge McDuck, Tony Soprano, or Hercule Poirot any day.

Personally, I think that the characters are secondary to the Legion concept; and can be had with any characters, as long as it's superheroes one thousand years in the future. It's perfectly possible to create a good and "legitimate" Legion using only new characters ('cept for R.J. Brande), IMO. Sure, it's nice to have Rokk and Jo and Brainy in there, especially in the beginning, but they're not necessary.

Depends on the Legionnaire. It'd be cool seeing a sixty-year old Jo and Brainy fight alongside Laurel's grandchild and new legionnaires not related to the classic ones, while Rokk, Imra, and Garth are happily living full and interesting civilian lifes.

It doesn't have to be this way. Just because the characters are too old to work in a modern day setting without contrivance (JSA) doesn't mean you can't have new continuing adventures set exclusively in the forties and fifties. Works better than a sliding timeline, that's for sure.

This decrepit 30-something fogey takes great offence to this comment.

I like 'em young & *hic* sexy!

Isn't that illegal? Oh wait it's ok in the 31st century! Ha! I hope 13 year old Lightning Lass dates a 50 year old! woohoo. What would Mr. Levitz do then? (teens are asking for trouble)

Jorge

Big Bad, i agree 100% with what you are saying.

Part of me wishes the Legion would start from scratch not 5 years after but 75 years after! We would have legacy heroes, new heroes and maybe some of the originals?

Your example of Jo & Brainy fighting next to their friend's grand-children is a great example.

Super-hereos in the future i agree is what the legion is about. I don't think the teen connection is as big as others believe. I guess for anyone who started reading pre 1974 and post 1996 it is?

Jorge

The Big Bad wrote:
Personally, I think that the characters are secondary to the Legion concept; and can be had with any characters, as long as it's superheroes one thousand years in the future.

I couldn't disagree more. It's the core characters, and the readers who love them, who have kept the franchise alive for more than 45 years. Replacing them -- even children/relatives of the original characters -- would spell disaster, imo. How many of the Legionnaires introduced in v.3 or v.4 made a significant, lasting impact? Not a one, except Andromeda (and only because she was Supergirl's replacement). Of the postboot crop of newbies, only XS and Gates have any long-term staying power, if popularity polls are any evidence. And let's not forget the furor over Sensor vs. Projectra. It's no coincidence that most of the Adventure-era oldbies survive while the others have fallen into oblivion. They are indispensible to the core concept of the Legion and the fact they are teenagers (or very young adults) has historically been a large factor in their longevity.

Case in piint - the One Million issues, or LSH Annual 7.

these were okay as one- (or two-) shots, but not the characters we love, even if those characters have had some strange morphs over the years.

Anyone who remembers the mid-80s JLA knows that you can't just slap new faces into an old team and pretend they're up to par... how many know the deeds of Vibe or Steel (the non-WWII Steel) today?

Wait a sec? V3 White Witch...though she appeared earlier it was this version that really became popular. Invisible Kid II was also popular. Blok, Quislet and Tellus have fans to this day. Pretty good for non-humanoid members.

Regarding Procta vs. SENSOR GIRL...she was voted leader. Kent Shakespeare v4 character has tons of fans as well.

I agree the characters do make the Legion and I can't imagine the Legion without Jo, Cham, and Brainy....I can imagine an elseworld with practically all new characters...especially legacy characters. I wouldn't consider it the *end* of the Legion. Heck the post boot ZH team was pretty dismal and close to being the end IMO.

No offense man but I see too many people diss the current JSA with all their legacy characters. "That isn't the real JSA" comments.

When it comes to the Legion I don't think there is a sure fire script for success...and I question basing it on the Adventure series so heavily vs the later peroids. For all we know they can model it after v3 and it sells out.

Jorge

I just pulled out my box of LSH (inspired by the most recent LSH Archives HC) and I have to admit: I LIKE THE LEGION WHEN THEY AGED.

As I get older, I have less interest in teenagers and a growing dislike for adolescent fantasies written by 30-40 y.o. men for other 30-40 y.o. men. I grew up, WHY CAN'T THE LEGION?

As for the lad/lass code names? Just attribute it to the culture of the 30th century UP. What's cool and/or appropriate changes across time and place, so is it so inconcievable that lad/lass, boy/girl would change value that far in the future in another language (if you buy that we're reading Interlac translations)?

The teen thing bugs me so much, I couldn't follow the Teen Titans (even though I like Geoff Johns and love the art), and I'm probably going to drop the LSH when they get rebooted again. After over 20 years with the team, I realize THIS ISN'T MY LEGION. I don't have much in common with these kids in their future.

And that's sad.

Jorge, I didn't imply that Waid should/will model the new series on Adventure. Imo, we'll see echoes of all the past eras. My point was that the basic concept of the LSH is tightly intertwined with its early characters and any attempt to separate them would unravel the whole fabric. It's for this reason the Adventure-era Legionnaires are much more likely to endure into the relaunch, not to mention Waid's personal bias towards them. I don't believe for a moment that the later recruits you list are as well loved (sorry, Kent Shakespeare does not have tons of fans). It's a moot point anyway, as Waid has expressed indifference towards most post-Adventure Legionnaires (specifically oldbies like Wildfire and Dawnstar and v.3 recruits Quislet and Tellus). He seems to agree with you on the age question, however. If not for Superboy, the new team would most likely be in their early twenties, perhaps closer in age and sensibility to the Cockrum/Grell era than to either the Adventure or v.3 Levitz eras. On the other hand, he didn't seem broken-hearted about the age thing either.

I can't argue your point that Adventure-era characters are no guarantee of success. The SW6 Batch failed to save v.4. The 1994 reboot, heavily populated by juvenile Adventures, *was* a success in its first two years but took a plunge after that. Even I admit these characters were portrayed TOO YOUNG. On the other hand, I think Levitz portrayed them TOO OLD in v.3 and his attempt to revitalize the LSH circa 1985 by retiring the founders and introducing new members and cadets was only modestly successful. Coincidentally (or not) LSH readership started becoming stagnant around this time and v.4, for all its vocal supporters here, just continued the downward slide. Ageing core characters were certainly not the sole cause, but they didn't help, imo. Hopefully Waid will find the right formula this time. If nothing else, they will *look* older if Kitson's teaser image is anything to go by. That's okay with me.

TC, it's allright sorry if it seemed like I was getting rascally. I was just defending Blok, Tellus and Kent Shakespeare.

I agree with everything you said and honestly find it hard to see a Legion without Jo, Brainy, and Cham (vs the founders) as I said before.

I think if we look at IK and IK II we see that while IK might have been more popular IK II was still a fan fave and a legacy character.

Might work better as an elseworld but the concept of legacy heroes a few generations removed from the classic Legion sounds fun for me.

Jorge

I'm all for an Elsewords or other non-canon story featuring descendents of the Legionnaires. As SUPERBOY'S LEGION showed, you can have a lot of fun playing around with the concept of the Legion.

For the "real" Legion, however, TC makes a very good point that interest in the team began to wane when Levitz retired the founders. I know that was true for me, though I'm not really sure why. It sounded like a logical outgrowth of the Legion's development that the oldest members would retire and turn the group over to others. But perhaps that was the problem: It was entirely too logical. Without these characters, the Legion becomes a faceless, corporate entity. It loses the personal touch that makes us care about the characters.

A similar analogy could be found in Star Trek. When STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION was announced in 1986-87, fans were in an unproar that these new characters were replacing their beloved old ones. But the makers of Star Trek did the wise thing by continuing the old cast in the movies while the Next Generation took over on TV. Compare this with many other attempts over the years to continue a concept with entirely new characters (the New Monkees, anyone?).

Geez, this thread is still going. Every time I see it pop up I worry people are gonna see it as me on a anti-teenage rant. Which it never was.

Now we are talking about legacy heroes and the progression the team aging wise.

He Who Wanders you make a good point with interest declining once the founders quit. It's true. The thing is there was no strong characters at the time to really take up the mantle. Polar Boy was leader? ouch. The rest of the good characters were too busy with their own lives to really care.

Again I hate to use this damn example for the 3rd time in a row but! If we saw Brainy, Ultra Boy, Cham, and Violet used as they were in v4 in the end of v3...and the title was never cancelled...I doubt we would say the team lost interest when the founders left. Except for Rokk the founders didn't have much to do with v4.

Jorge