I'm curious about what issue numbers people think the Silver Age started for Superman, Action Comics, Adventure Comics and even Superboy and World's Finest. Personally, I have no idea and can't remember any specific issue number ever accurately given this title for any Supes comic.

What are your opinions? What is the general consensus of fandom, although I acknowledge right off that the general consensus will probably be innaccurate to some people? What are the reasons?

I've read that appearances by the Legion and Brainiac helped usher Superman into the Silver Age. Does it go back farther to Supergirl? Am I correct in my knowledge that Superboy and Lois Lane both recieved comics in the very early 1950's, well before the Silver Age?

Just a fun conversation

I believe that Superboy dates to the late 40s, actually. I know one of the issues in regards to printing Superboy Archives is that most of what we consider the "classic" elements of the Superboy mythos (Krypto, for instance) don't get introduced until quite a ways into the series.

I'm not sure if there is any general consensus as to exactly when the Silver Age Superman starts. I think there's a very gradual transition from the Golden Age to Silver Age for Supes.

I will add this little tidbit to explain my curiosity :

My Dad recently completed our Justice League of America, Flash, Hawkman and the Atom collections (and Incredible Hulk for Marvel). Like Green Lantern, we now own all of those issues (ever!). Now he wants to start nailing down Superman stories, although going for the Golden Age is far too expensive. Still, the 70's issues aren't as fun as early Silver Age.

He leaves hunting for Legion issues (and other stuff like Defenders) to me, which have to wait until I get a jobby-job.

EDE- any idea what year Krypto was introduced? Before or after Supergirl?

Well the SA Superman [Man of Tomorrow] Archive #1 is due to contain ACTION COMICS #241-247 and SUPERMAN #122-126 (1958-1959).

Krypto's first appearance is Adv. #210, in 1955.

Hm, that sounds about the right era. I always thought that circa 1958 was the best place to start, but was curious if it should be earlier.

For the record: can anyone tell me Brainiac's first appearance off-hand? Supergirl is Action #247 IIRC. Any other major 'firsts' during the issues SoM has listed?

When did Kandor first appear?

Thanks EDE! Wow, I Krypto appeared much earlier than I originally thought!

1955! Before Barry Allen!

Action #241 is apparently the classic version of the origin story for the Silver Age, so it would make sense to start with that.

Then Brainiac is apparently Action #242.

Superboy, incidentally, first appeared in 1945.

Hm, so Action #241 does make a lot of sense then. Cool!

So the new Origin story, Brainiac, Supergirl, the Legion, etc. all help usher in the Silver Age for Supes.

Just to keep this train of thought going, when did the following appear: Kandor, Streaky, Comet, any other major things?

And is there an issue that could really mark the transition in World's Finest?

And, just to be even more annoying, had Lana and Lois met in a story before the Silver Age, and if so, what issue?

(And EDE, I knew that if anyone could give me the info quick, it'd be you. Your knowledge of the Silver Age, the Legion, etc. is astounding!)

Oh, I've been googling to get exact dates and issue numbers. I'm not that good.

Kandor, I believe, is in the first Brainiac story.

Streaky is Action #261, from 1960 (see my Supergirl Archives thread for more info).

Comet actually makes his first appearance in the first Legion of Super-Pets story, as a "future" pet of Supergirl! I'm not sure offhand when his actual debut in the Supergirl series is.

The Silver-Age began for Superman in the first story in which Lois schemes to trick him into marrying her, whatever issue that was.

Or perhaps in JIMMY OLSEN # 88, where Superman dances "The Krypton Crawl"! ("Superman! Stop dancing! There's an emergency down the street!")

I should have known about the Comet story, I've read it half a dozen times! I get so caught up in reading the Whizzy story though, that I often forget ol' Comet!

Interesting about Kandor. I've never actually read that story, so I never knew that.

Lash, Lois tricking Superman into marrying her is definatley an important part of the Silver Age!

And how could I forget about Jimmy Olsen? When did #88 come out? Was there *really* a "Krypton Crawl"? When did Jimmy first turn into a Super-hero? Which one?

Lash is being silly. Supes doesn't start doing the Krypton Crawl until 1965:

Good Grief! There really is a Krpyton Crawl! And it's more electrifying than Elvis!

Cool it, big daddy!

BTW, did Lois and Lana ever meet before the Silver Age. I'm sure they must have, but it'd be interesting if they hadn't, since I've always been under the impression that Superman continuity was not the most coordinated until the Silver Age began.

One other thing: when did Mr. Mxyptlck (sp?) first appear?

Mxy's from the 40s.

The other interesting question is when Mort Weisinger took over as Superman editor.

I'm guessing Lois and Lana first met in an early issue of Lois Lane, but I'm not sure.

Mister Mxyzptlk = Superman #30 (1944).

Ah, but that's not true! Mr. Mxyztplk first appeared in Superman 30. Mr. Mxyzptlk appeared later

I thought Mxy was early, but I didn't know he was that early. What prompted me to ask was that I was wondering when Batman really made the transition (another can of worms). I tend to think of Bat-mite, along with Batwoman and Batgirl, as early Bats Silver Agers, although that could be wrong too.

Good stuff! I think we have a pretty good idea of the transition then. The only other one would be what issue of World's Finest (and maybe Jimmy Olsen or Lois Lane) did those titles really join up? And whether it was simply b/c of the year or if any event really ushered them in?

Batman's pick'n'choose - Batman #1, and other Golden Age comics were referenced in Englehart's run. Personally, I put all the time-travel, aliens, monsters etc on E2 for Bats, with the earlier stuff in both, and E1 picking up with the "New Look" (yellow oval).

Bat-dates:

1955-- Ace the Bat-Hound
1956-- Batwoman
1958-- Bat-Mite
1961-- Bat-girl (Betty Kane)
1964-- "New Look"; death of Alfred; Aunt Harriet

The Batman aliens covers are some of the most fun to look at. I definately don't count them towards his Silver Age continuity, but they're a blast to see! My Dad hated them as a kid, but when we put them up on display (we have a good amount), it's fun even for him.

I think Batman's transition is accompanied by a few particulur villians: Clayface and Catman. Both were big-time baddies in the Silver Age with many subsequent returns (even in World's Finest). Clayface was almost Batman's Brainiac if you look at it like that. Of course, Bats already had Joker, Penguin, Catwoman and Two-Face, while Supes didn't have that large of a Rogues Gallery.

If we're getting into Batman, I'm curious to know if Mr. Freeze, the Mad Hatter and Dr. Hugo Strange first appeared. I know the Riddler, Calender Man, and Blockbuster are pretty much all Silver Agers (with Poison Ivy a bit later), but I can't remember when the first three I mentioned first appeared.

Bat-mite is another I'm unsure about (when did he first appear?), but I'd say Batwoman and Batgirl are pretty solid as Silver Agers.

Just to make it more confusing

Thanks, EDE! See, I'd put Ace, Bat-Mite and Batwoman as part of Bat's Silver Age experience, or at least a prelude to it.

Although 1955 is still a bit early. I guess like Krypto, I'd file Ace and Batwoman under "Prelude to and Beginnings of the Silver Age".

Bat-Mite, in 1958, is definately Silver Age.

Here\'s the site where I got the above data, if you're interested.

Like I said tho, Batman's unique among the carryovers in that his Golden Age comics were definately Silver Age (E1) continuity. Because of that, timings become less important, since cuts are going to be made somewhere. And the aliens/time travel/"I'm a human fish" stuff really doesn't go with the later stuff. Although, Batwoman has to be in, I suppose. I wouldn't count on Bat-Mite tho.

Bat-Girl was in Titans West pre-Crisis wasn't she? So I guess that would move her and Batwoman into Silver Age continuity, if not all the other stories of that era.

So, which do you all prefer: the Krypton Crawl, the Bat-Watusi or the Shurg? Shouldn't more heroes have their own associated dance craze, like the Lobo-Limbo or something?

No, Bat-Mite definately was pushed out continuity at some point (I really did like that LoTK story, circa #38, a few years back, though).

I agree SoM, it's a lot harder for Batman. The way you've got it set up makes the most sense for his continuity. And I like your idea that the aliens/time travel/"i'm a human fish" was the E2 Bats.

As for the actual 'feel' in the comic books for when the Silver Age started, I'd say the transition really occured with appearances of first Ace and Batwoman, then Batgirl, Clayface, Catman and other villians that had staying power (besides Bat's big four).

Also, it's obvious that by the time Batman became the regular in Brave and Bold, the Silver Age was underway (just thought I'd add that in there).

Of course, for simplicity's sake, one could just say that all issues of Superman and Batman immediately following the first appearance of Barry Allen and thereafter were Silver Age.

Another interesting question would be at what time did the Silver Age stop at DC and the next age (is there even a name?) begin... and what would be the pivotal issues there. Maybe Cockrum's beginning on Superboy/LSH? Or the classic "Speedy is a JUNKIE!!!" issues of GL/GA?

I think it's sometimes been refered to as the Bronze Age and/or the Modern Age. Not sure that either has really stuck or is actually used exclusively for that period.

The classic "Speedy Is A Junkie" issue is certainly about the right point. I think about the same time the Titans gave up their uniforms, the JLA was revamped, Black Canary "moved" from Earth 2 to Earth 1, Cockrum transformed the Legion by revamping their uniforms, DC started offering what I would call "real life" issues (Drugs, Runaways, Prejudice, etc) as opposed to simply battling space aliens or super criminals.

Hm, "Speedy is a Junkie" is a possibility. For Marvel, it's definately the death of Gwen Stacy IMO. I like to pick out a certain point for each comic book though, to get a feel for when each comic entered (or exited) the Silver Age.

Dave Cockrum on LSH seems good to me Kippers! I'm not quite as familiar with the Superman books though, to give an accurate issue for any of his series. I haven't gone through the Batman issues since before High School, so I'm having trouble remembering a good turning point there too.

And just for the sake of making myself laugh, I will from now on declare that it was Krypto, not Barry Allen, that began the Silver Age

I'm not joking about the human fish one, BTW (even if I wish I was ):



That's too simple to work, tho. It assumes that the Superbat people gave a damn about the red suited clown in Showcase

Post-Silve is definately Bronze, but where that ends is open to debate. I think Crisis is the best spot for that.

Modern Age is always "Now", whenever now may be

I actually think Watchmen may be the ending point for the "Bronze" age.

It's also possible that either Daredevil (Kevin Smith) #1 or Ultimate Spider-Man #1 has begun a new NEW age, as well. Of course, we'll have to wait 10-20 years to see if it holds up to the test of time.

Neal Adams's run would be a strong possibility there.

I didn't see it mentioned, but here is a GREAT website on the history of Superman:

http://theages.superman.ws/comics.php

The author argues that there was a distinct Superman between the Golden Age (1938-1948)and the Silver Age (1958-1970), defined by Jerry Siegel's absence, the science fictionalization of the Superman origin and mythos, a fluctuating continuity.

The author, who is NOT fond of Superman's treatment post-Byrne, defines the Superman from the mid-1980s to about 2000 as the "Iron Age," and then argues that the efforts of people like Jeph Loeb and Mark Waid are creating a new version of Superman distinct from this Iron Age persona.

Anyway, the site's lots of fun, and an invaluable reference source.

The "Iron Age" from the mid-1980's to about 2000 and then a new current age beginning there would fit right into my hypothesis.

Thanks doublechinner! Cool site!

And Kippers, have you ever read Craig Schutt's (Mr. Silver Age) discussions about when the various ages began? He goes into immense detail about the various companies and characters to determine when each different age began.

It's a lot to get into, but basically he believes that between every age there is a 'cooling off' period, that usually coincides with a dip in comic book sales. He says that the Silver Age officially begins with Showcase #4 (although there were some preludes) and ends with Amazing Spider-Man #122, although some comics fall outside these parameters.

He then calls the great comic age that saw Byrne and Claremont's X-Men, Miller's Daredevil, Watchman, Dark Knight Returns, etc. something like "the Diamond Age", since other labels like Iron seem so crude for such a fine age. He says there are a few points to show the start of this (a la Giant Size X-Men #1) and a few places to end it (Legends of the Dark Knight #1 and the adjectiveless X-Men #1 to name a few). Basically, these books are significant as they have multiple #1's with variant covers, foiled covers, signify the new 'grim and gritty' era that hit *every* title (which Watchman and DKR started, but hadn't spread everywhere), and some other things.

It's very intersting, I hope someone has links and stuff (I read it in CBG). After this end, the rest of the 90's weren't much of an era at all, according to Schutt, but a 'cooling off' period. We may be in a new Age now with an upswing in the industry and many good comics being produced.