I read Hickman's MarvelNOW book AVENGERS 1-2 last night, and it was some super-crazy space-opera full of sound, fury, space-nonsense, Mission Monitor Board icons and lots of super-heroes.

The *only* thing keeping it from being the best LSH book available currently is that it is not set in the future.

Haha, I like this perspective! In particular, I thought of the Mission Monitor Board when I saw the hero symbols in the Avengers book. I am so on board for the Hickman Avengers run, yeah.

oh Lash ... I found both really really boring and tiiirrrred!

Also, I didn't like the long talks between cap and tony ... explaining their characters and points of view ... as if we didn't know ... and then ... the whole story of getting a team together when ... there has been a team together is weird.

"Hello Spider Woman I know you are on the team now but how would you like to be on the team."

and then they said they have been facing bigger and bigger threats ... not really, for the past several years they have been facing ... EACH OTHER!

also, on a more critical note ... I didn't like the mixture of mythology and science ... it didn't play well to me, or make sense.

I got Manhattan Projects, an FF trade, and this by Hickman ... and Manhattan Projects is by FAR the best by Hickman. It is amazing.

I am happy to see Sunspot and Cannonball outside of the X verse. (or at all) and I am curious about the new big hitters ... Smasher, Hyperion, and Captain Universe but ... I predict we will just have one big action arc ... and then the book will meander or get reinvented again.

I wasn't wild about Captain Marvel's super butch look. I like butch but she looks like a skinny guy who just got out of prison.

I will probably get the next issue or two ... just hoping for some action ... and I have bought one LSH book during this boot so I guess I do agree with you!

Peebs prefers little talk, and more action. Noted & Logged.

I liked the first issue quite a bit, but found the second a bit of a momentum killer.

Currently, I'd say Hypernaturals is the best LSH book.

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Yes!

I'm trade-waiting HYPERNATURALS. So are you guys sure it's better than FLOUNDATIONS and (insert your own humourous yet derogative DNA-era LSH-arc title-spoof)???

Sheesh! I'm certainly not one to hide my feelings about the things I didn't like in DnA's Legion run, especially towards the end (I still don't think I've read all of Floundations!), and I suppose it's not inconceivable that they could completely drop the ball at this point, but so far I like it better than almost anything they did with the Legion!

I see. What you're saying is, it's the end of Hickman's opening AVENGERS arc vs. the end of DNA's opening HYPERNATURALS arc for title of BEST LEGION COMIC!

WINNER TAKE ALL!

I'm still convinced Foundations from #26-on was all Wacker's doing. They just suddenly drop SO MUCH they were setting up in #25, like the Cadets, and the Legion Worlds danglers relating to Braal (mentioned in #25) and Valor that had hiterto fed their run (wouldn't the Superboy-cult plot work SO MUCH BETTER with M'Onel/Valor?) - hell, even Cub is barely mentioned!

Do we have to consider X-Men Legacy if you're framing it in those terms?

The first issue was pretty awesome, second...honestly kinda floundered.

I mean, the origin of all the "villains" of the piece was pretty fascinating, but the stuff in the Avengers literally moved nowhere from the issue before. The end of the first issue made it look like this issue would have these new Avengers getting to Mars to whoop some ass, but what do they do in the second issue? Stand around talking as they were building a ship to get to Mars that wasn't really necessary in the end. I mean, Bendis never stalled an issue this badly.

That's right. I said it.

I also found the continuity of it in comparison to the Bendis run very odd. I mean, I get that Hickman's probably writing this to make it fit better with what people fresh from the Avengers movie would expect, but I just found it odd that they were treating Wolverine and Spider-Man as if they've never been Avengers before (also--why was Spidey crying about money? He's got that nice Horizon Labs job with no money woes), and yet when Tony shows off the final roster to Steve, he asks why Luke Cage isn't on there. It's just odd.

Odd, but I'm still looking forward to it. It's all still solid work, I just think I had it a little more overhyped in my head. I mean, Hickman's F4 started off as pretty strong/fun action comics with some good heart in there, but with time it became so much more. Hickman's probably doing the same thing here.

And this reminds me that I do need to catch up on Hypernaturals. I like it when I read it, but I do sometimes forget about it.

I started out gung ho on Hypernaturals, on the premise that it would be a good Legion take by DnA, but I feel it has lost some steam... Hopefully Hickman' s avengers won't do the same( despite the general reaction that issue 2 did not live up to potential own. 1)

So, Hickman's AVENGERS...

Yep, it is currently the best LSH book! Issue 3 wrapped up the opening arc to my satisfaction, and the whole "pie" thing was killing me.

Yes. I too am loving the Avengers book. Marvel is on a bit of an upswing IMHO. DC, not so much.

So, this week it is Avengers #5 vs. Hypernaturals #8 in the battle-of-for-the-best-LSH-book-currently-published, and I have to give the edge this time to Avengers! Loved the spotlight on Ultra Girl... er... Smasher, and we get the beginning of a big, new cosmic epic introducing some new, unknown force from deep space!

Hypernaturals was pretty groovy as well, but it didn't feel like a whole lot happened this issue to move the story along. My favorite part was probably the flashback.

I am SO EXCITED because I have accumulated 4 issues of AVENGERS to read! That should give me my "good LSH story" fix!

It's still kicking ass! Definitely much closer to how the Legion should be written than anything bearing the Legion name in years!

Smasher is pretty awesome so far! And Captain Universe is enjoyably weird / complex. The Avengers has been refreshing in its tone and scope. Kind of like I wish the Legion could be!

Also loving the Hypernaturals. Fans of diva Saturn Girl will surely be big fans of Bewilder!

Both series have been really fantastic so far.

I came SO close to buying the HYPERNATURALS trade last week... I might do that, this week.

I think you'll really enjoy it. I'd say its DnA's best work ever, and I liked their Legion run and their GotG run.

Hickman's Avengers is nice, but it's nothing too groundbreaking. He's cribbing a bunch off of the Legion, just as he did in his fantastic four (look at all the extra characters; Shang Chi is Karate Kid, Hyperion is Mon El right down to being trapped in empty void for a period of time, Smasher is Ultra Boy right down to the wet and wild personality, the teleporter is Dawnstarish, and Captain Universe is basically "what if the Infinite Man was cast downn with amnesia).

If you look at his Fantastic Four run carefully, you can see the way it follows the Levitz/Giffen time trapper mega-arc from v3, as well, right down to Johnny Storm dying as Pocket U Superboy did to save a dimension, Galactus-herald-of-Johnny brought up for the win in much the same way as the Infinite Man was in Legion....

Anyway, as with anything, Hickman's well written and some of the set pieces and ideas are interesting as hell, but it lacks real substance or real character. Characters, even after being spotlighted an issue, are thin. Plot mostly consists of HINTS, which won't be paid off for years. This kind of reveal-oriented writing I tend to think is weak.

He could be doing more, and better. Part of what makes Manhattan Projects (often) one of his stronger works is that he's not planning things out years in advanced; he's giving us reasonable, enjoyable chunks of story regularly. Still suffers from some unlikeable, thin characters, but plotlines are introduced and then wrapped up in a reasonable span, giving one a sense of satisfaction, and purpose.

The first 3 issues of Avengers was not a story, but a statement. The next three were variable - weak, good, very weak.

The latest issue - 7 - was the weakest yet, substanceless in the extreme if you are at all familiar with the New Universe stuff. He absolutely needs to reintroduce that stuff, so I applaud him there, but if he's doing that for new readers he should be simultaneously giving familiar readers something to latch onto with his characters.

Before issue #1 it sounded like the Legion. I mean Smasher? C'mon. I asked him on CBR if he's a Legion fan. He responded that he hated the Legion.

I have a feeling he was lying to hide the similarities.

He wasn't lying, Jorge, he was joking. I was on that thread.

Hickman isn't a huge fan of superhero comics. But he's cited two, and exactly two, comics that he loved; The Legion of Super-Heroes, especially Keith Giffen's 5YL run, and the New Mutants, especially the Bill S. years. Those are the only two franchises he'll admit to be invested in, as a fan (he stated over and over -- Fantastic Four, and even his creator owned stuff, those were just JOBS for him, like any other; he isn't personally invested in any of those, though he grew to be with Fantastic Four, which is why I think it's probably the best thing he's yet done).


It is interesting to me that the 5YL is common favorite among the very best new guys like John Hickman and Matt Kindt, and is vehemently hated by talented stars like Rob Liefeld....

Ah, he was joking. That makes more sense now. lol. I love Hickman. I loved his SHIELD series and his Avengers so far.

I'm a traditional Avengers fan and I just love his take so far. Love the new villains, etc.

I do too--I think he's brilliant.

Can anybody explain to me what is so good about this book?

I picked up the first issue (as I loved Hickmans Fantastic Four & Manhattan Projects and enjoyed Shield) but the book did not grab me at all.

Did it pick up subsequently or have I missed something?

If you didn't like it before, you won't like it now I suspect.

Things it has in its favor; it's got sharp dialogue. It's got inventive big-concepts. It's got lots of action.

Things against: It lacks real character work. It's decompressed in the - extreme -, to the detriment. It focuses a bit too much on shock value.


I find it FAR superior to Hypernaturals though. DnA have completely come off the rails for me post-Legion. A shame, as I LOVED their work on the early Legion stuff and the first volume of Resurrection Man.

After reading issues 4-7, it has never been clearer that DC should be absolutely ashamed of themselves (with a VERY FEW exceptions) for the crap they are currently publishing.

We're in a rare era where the Avengers comics and X-Men comics are all far superior to all the Legion and Justice League comics.

DC should rightly feel ashamed.

Hickman's Avengers is the best the title has been since Busiek left the book all those years ago. It's even better than his already stellar run on FF in my opinion.
The book I have been looking forward the most every two weeks.

Haha, it's fun to see Hickman legitimately trolling Legion fans now.

Today, latest issue, he's got Hyperion screaming "AAIIEEEEE", which is LEvitz's signature exclamation of pain.

And again in today's New Avengers, with Wong screaming AIEEE!!

Hilarious.

So, you can tell things must be headed south for the Legion, because Bouncing Boy seems to have bolted for his own new title at Image. On the one hand, he's looking nice and fit. On the other hand, he's seems to have become a pothead.

Considering Image made "consuming odd types of matter" cool with Chew, there's no end to the Legion concepts they can mine for fantastic series!

In fact, I might start working on an edgy Ron Karr-ish type pitch now!

Why, just imagine what type of comic Image could publish if Howard Chaykin spent some time considering Camera Eye having his own series! I'm not sure there is even a word for the type of sexual act he'd surely include.

I'll give Hickman credit for scope of ambition but the story is plodding along. I feel like there needs to be some form of resolution to these bio-bomb sites other than mere containment. The introduction of New Universe elements was interesting but again, fell off because of the glacial pace of the story.

For my money, Remender is doing much better over on Uncanny Avengers. There's actual tension within the group, the story is pacing rather well as the Red Skull moves from the Opening Act to an ongoing sub-plot. It's fun to read...something I can't quite say the same about Hickman's Avengers.

AVENGERS may be the best current LSH title, but UNCANNY AVENGERS is definitely my current favorite Marvel comic (or comic, period maybe)!

FYI, It's not just the Liefelds of the world who vehemently hate 5YL.

Gods, this just gets worse and worse for me. Like I said in another thread, Hickman is the last writer I'd ever want working on the Legion. His Avengers/Secret Wars run may have started with promise, but it devolved over time into one of the worst things I've ever read. And I think his FF isn't a patch on Simonson's FF.

And I won't give him even a one-issue chance. I don't want to contribute to his royalties.

FWIW, I do agree with him that New Mutants was good and the Sienkiwicz issues were great.

I've always been partial to the pre-Sienkiewicz New Mutants issues, especially the Bob McLeod-drawn stuff. Everything just got too dark and too weird after that, all the way thru the Louise Simonson run until Liefeld turned it into pre-X-Force.

As a teenager, I was a little freaked out by the demon bear, primarily because of Sienkiewicz's artwork. It has remained my favorite period for the New Mutants ever since.

Fair enough. And I don't think everything Claremont did during the Sienkiewicz era worked (I'm thinking particularly of turning Tom and Sharon from Caucasians into Native Americans.) But when it was good, it was really good.

What do you think of New Mutants Annual #2, Lardy? The New Mutants-plus-Captain Britain-and-Psylocke vs. Mojo story is one of my personal Top Three Claremont scripts; and it doesn't hurt that Alan Davis drew it.

I'll honestly have to re-read NM some time. I haven't read them since they originally came out. It's quite possible my reaction to the Sienkiewicz era would be totally different now. So, yeah, it's hard to remember my reaction to the annual you mention. I remember clearly, though, that my favorite New Mutants issue ever was the Special Edition, which obviously came out well after the McLeod era..

Ooh, the Special Edition that tied into the Asgard Wars!! Good stuff! I think the Asgard Wars was the best extended storyline that the X-Books did in the 80s.

Yes, and it was relatively short and self-contained with half of it drawn by Art Adams and the first half by Paul Smith. An excellent story and the New Mutants SE was very important to the NM and worked well as a fairly self-contained epic on its own.

I loved that New Mutants SE. It was in my backpack for months until it fell apart and I had to buy a new one. I kept on fantasizing about being trapped with them in their journeys.

I think the unsung heroine of the Asgard Wars and of NM in general was the X-Books' then-editor, Ann Nocenti.