Preview is available at Newsarama .

Looks like Paul is still jumping around the timeline a bit. Which works for me as a fan, but it might be a bit too confusing for new readers.

Maybe he should pick a point in the Legion's past and tell stories from there?

This series also would do better with rotating former and upcoming Legion artists.

I wish he would move forward a bit and include some more members.

Once again, it's the three founders. <Sigh>

It's nice to see the them get adult supervision. One of the things that bugs me about Silver Age comics is the fact that these kids have no adults around, when parents are becoming increasingly protective these days (which I think was what the Threeboot was all about).

This looks like a fun story, but can we please have a moratorium on stories involving the three founders?

Uhhh ... I didn't get a real sense of the story from just those 5 pages so I will wait until I've read the full issue before I pass judgement.

Those 5 pages were good though. It seems like a nice, likeable story so far ... from the standpoint of us "new readers" getting to know these characters.

Can DC please hire a better cartoonist? Kevin has some years of experience before drawing anything as top as Legion... Art is stiff, awkward, Saturn Girl looks like a bimbo taken from some Image Comics in the 90s... Just terrible.

I'm still not a fan of Kevin Sharpe's art, but I will admit I do see some improvement.
The story looks like fun & despite what others say, I don't mind seeing the founders being featured.

I think the artwork's pretty decent, BUT Saturn Girl is SO NOT a boob window kinda girl and Cosmic Boy's gloves bug me. Also, what's with the flying belts? DIdn't Paul say he was retroactively doing away with them in favor of flight rings?

I too am bored with the founders. Show me Triplicate Girl, Gim, and Lyle instead, please.

I like how the Flight Belts kind of magically go away when they land. Poof!

Saturn Girl's workout togs have a little Saturn symbol on the chest? That's kind of bizarre. Even if I had a monogram on my preppy shirt, I wouldn't put one on my jockstrap...

I didn't notice the new artist, and probably would have thought it was the same guy if everyone wasn't talking up how much better the art was, but I think I liked the cleaner lines from previous issues. The faces in the approaching shots were a little cartoony, like something I'd see in an Archie comic.

He did draw a nice solid-looking Saturn Girl. The girls looked *very* skinny from what I remember of the previous art (esp at the baseball game, etc.). I guess for every artistic choice I like, there's be another one I don't. Fickle, is me.

The concept that the Legion started out being all deputized and received training to follow SP procedures and stuff *totally* works for me. That is the kind of stuff that these flashbacks can excel at, making sense of stuff that got glossed over back in the day, and has become increasingly jarring (the SP allows a dozen superpowered teenagers to run around blasting off city-vaporizing energy discharges without so much as a *permit?*).

It's not the sort of pesky little detail that I think warrants an actual story, so much as a background character like an SP Liaison attached full-time to the team and an occasional line-drop about someone having to re-qualify for some sort of emergency procedure, or a new member needing to certify with the Liaison before being cleared for active duty, but it's still something relevant.

Well Brande wore one in L3W when he was murdered, so they are are still established.



Agree that Lyle needs to shine more, but will always enjoy Garth and Imra in action together--Cos not so much.

Woohoo! Zaryan the Conqueror! Hopefully Paul will definitively establish him as hailing from Brok and not Khundia...

That SP Sarge could be Gigi Cusimano.

The three founders again - but I liked the little insight into some of what's driving Saturn Girl, trying to keep up with the boys.

Also the idea that Brande bought their acceptance/status is reasonable; there could be some degree of resistance from the SPs, akin to the threeboot's view that the Legionnaires are just kids meddling in police business. They have to prove themselves.

i dont get the kids thing...wasn't the fact that at age 14 was considered the age of majority at the time and they weren't children as in minors...thought i saw that established in secrets of the legion of super-heroes 1

I don't understand that. Childhood has been extended since the end of WWI with the creation of teenagers. Why would Earth return to the definition of childhood ending at puberty?

While I've always liked Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad (separately or together), the three founders together have never been that terribly exciting to me.

I liked Saturn Girl's workout clothes though. They look much better than the rags she's wearing in the Legion book.

Great idea ... I'd love to see some older, lesser seen artists back ...

i totally agree with you! and on top of what you say, i add that as far as i believe kevin sharpe's art also suffers a very bad storytelling. this book is drawn so badly it's a shame.

Without ruining it for those that haven't read it yet, the ending pretty much contradicts Superman: Secret Origins #2 and I am glad for the changes made there. Not nearly as thrilled with the rest of the story... oh well.

Interesting that there aren't more comments on this issue yet. This is going to be controversial, I imagine. My initial reaction is pretty negative. I'll withhold further comment while waiting for other's responses.

HUSSY!!!!1

Paul knows how to shake things up.

I just saw some of the clips over at s_d.

Ouch. My eyes. My brain.

There's a difference between causing short-term publicity and being bad for the book long-term. Major retcons like these are bad for the book long-term, even if they do first get some cheap publicity by having everyone talk about how Shvaugn Erin is a guy with a sex change or how Imra mind-wiped Cosmic Boy after sleeping with him. (And the mind-wipe is worse than the sex.)

I won't get the comic until tomorrow, so I'm not terribly clear when the event occured.

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> If it happened post-marriage, then holy crap, does that bug me. If it happened well before that, then it's, IMO, kinda meaningless.

I don't recall purity balls being a big deal on either Titan or Winath, so the thought that stuff happened before rings went on and vows were made doesn't faze me. </span></span>

Set:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">The mind-wipe is majorly creeping me out. The events leading up to it, not so much.</span></span>

It happened well before. But I'm not mad because I think Imra's not showing enough devotion to Garth, I'm mad because it's a giant, gratuitous, retcon and it has the same effect as retconning in any other event that's that important to the character's lives but contradicts the spirit of what we already know.

And the mind-wiping part is less soap-operaish, but more significant.

This issue was another big throwaway issue for me. The big revelation was a <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Zatanna-as-Geoff-Johns-likes-it stunt</span></span> that would be controversial 5 years ago. It might be a way to show <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Imra as a husky sexy woman that will end up in bed with Earth-Man - so why not throw a bone in her past to make it more plausible?</span></span>.
Apart from that, the writing cringes on unsubtlety. Dialogue seems directed to a 14-year-old in the 50s (often direct,explaaaining everything and letting everyone knows that "my character is bi-dimentional, even though the issue might be morally complex".
Worse of all is Kevin Sharpe terrible, terrible lack of storytelling abilities. One needs to believe his un-dramatic effect by drawing <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Esquivel throwing herself at some guy with a gun</span></span> as if he was doing some storyboard for a cough syrup advertising. How about page 8? What the hell happened on the second panel? Was she going back when one panel before she was after them?
In general, this is writing at Justin Thyme level (was it Paul Levitz in disguise???) and what was supposed to be a controversial issue looks to me controversial by being simply bland and heartless. It's almost incredible that it's written by the same guy who wrote so many wonderful Legion stories.

EDIT: I really don't care about the retcon. Sounds ok to me and not freaky at all. I liked all TMK "microchanges", and they at least wrote them well. Moreover, Giffen is gigantic in storytelling.

Set, it''s set soon after the founding of the Legion, right before they first met Superboy, so there's no cheating involved. Basically, it's two drunken 15 year olds engaging in meaningless sex after a night of barcrawling, culminating in a cowardly mind wipe to cover up the mistake. Imra vows to remain celibate thereafter. (What a laugh riot!)

Seriously, this was a putrid piece of garbage. Saturn Girl is already a laughing stock for her sexual shenanigans, this just reinforces it. Plus, she's now a creepy, mind-manipulating liar to boot. Adventure is officially DROPPED.

Uh oh!!!!

Oh, it didn't make any real sense sociologically, making them independent at 14 but it was the excuse the early writers used to make the Legion of children not have to have many interfering adults around.

Marla Latham was the only adult I remember that was shown mentoring or teaching anyone in the early days, and that was mostly Jo Nah, if I remember correctly.

And they ARE children at 14, I don't care what is said at DC.

I like the artist in the 5 pages I saw.
And maybe Titans have to wear the saturn symbol ALL of the time.
Originally in the early Adventure stories, Imra didn't show any special attachment to Garth.
It wasn't until after he died to save her that she became rather obsessed with him.
So, this version is spot on as far as I can tell.

I echo other comments; Rokk and Imra sleeping together in the early days of the Legion doesn't bother me THAT much...(I don't love it, but I can live with it)

Imra, she who won't even read a criminal's mind without there being no way around it, mindwiping one of her own colleagues? That's a horrible moment of mischaracterisation. Right from the beginning Saturn Girl has been known for being super ethical when it comes to her power, I just don't see her doing this.

I haven't read this issue yet but since I'm learning not to expect too much from this book I went ahead and read the spoilers anyway.

I don't get it. Is Paul trying to get this book cancelled?

With writing as hokey as it's been so far and with art that it's hard to find one nice thing to say about, the ONLY people who could possibly be buying this book are long-time Legion fans.

And yet Paul seems to be doing his utmost to piss off those same long-time fans with all these meaningless and annoying retcons and mis-characterisations.

At least now that I know this title is a complete car-crash I can enjoy it on that absurdist level but I'd much rather be enjoying it because it was a good, well-written/drawn comic, y'know?

I predict cancellation or massive change in focus/creators in this book within the next few months. In any event, the sales numbers here are going to start DIVING, without a doubt.

And that's a shame. This could be a great title.

Of course, a lot of that's been retconned out anyway, with the whole revelation that she secretly scans the mind of every Legion applicant.

There was also that time she used her powers to cause a million dollar robot to run amok.

That time she caused all of Smallville to turn against Superboy.

And the time she used her powers to get elected Legion leader.

And don't forget the time she used telekinesis, while you're at it. Early, silly, Silver Age stories are not good precedents. I certainly wouldn't want to see a story where Supergirl starts killing people based on the Poisitive Man story as precedent.

And the latter two were to save lives, anyway.

have forgotten that special feeling when you realized that they were treated with adult respect at 14 and were on equal level with what was considered "adults" that's partly why i fell in love with the legion when i realized that they were treated with that respect at 11 (my age then) that's a powerful image.

And again its the 30/31st century...why be bound by what's socially 'right' now?

By the way think about it..."i can risk my life against the fatal five, i can sacrifice my life in a sun eater, i can be held on a prison world, i can be allowed thru time...but i cant have sex cause that would be wrong for someone 14-15' Sorta like our "i can be drafted to a war and kill people, I can vote, I can drive a car, but i can't have a drink till 2 years after the fact"

That puts in some perspective about age in the 31st century now don't it???

Now let's focus on what the issue actually said about Imra's character in the postive way. Her line about "no one dying in her place again" should have people thinking about what she did when she got everyone to elect her as leader when Zaryan the conqueror showed up again. He was put there on purpose for everyone to make the connection.

First of all, she didn't wipe anyone's memory in the Zaryan story. Mind-controlling people to vote for her is a one-time thing. Mindwipes last years.

Second, she did what she did in the Zaryan story to protect everyone else. What she did in this story isn't believably based on a concern for everyone's welfare (even though that's how she rationalizes it).

Wow .... just read #517 and all I have to say is:

Saturn Girl really IS a space hussy!
Damn!!

See what I mean? Saturn Girl has been reduced to a bad joke that will always overshadow her accomplishments.

So does that make the mind-control thing "Better"?

Why isn't it believable? Its what she said...and she's not even mindwiping herself from memoring it...shows that she is being sincere if she's not trying to keep the truth away from herself.

It seems like it will to some...to me just shows me she's human and makes mistakes. And she had made them early on unlike what we originally saw.

They only question I have is "Why"? How does this advance the overall story or even Saturn Girl's character?

As distasteful as sleeping with Rokk is, if this was going to be introduced, I wish they'd left the mind wipe out, which goes form showing her as "green" and unsure of herself to unethical and manipulative (in a reactionary way).

Of several unpalatable options, I'd prefer if Rokk retained his memories, and they just never talked about it and then when things developed with Garth, they just kept it to themselves. As uncomfortable as that would be, it would be preferable to this and add some tension to the relationship.

I'll wait to see if there's pay-off, but I'm afraid there won't be any.

I'm afraid there will be, and it will be yet another bad check, with Rokk's relationship issues / breakup with Lydda having something to do with repressed memories of Imra or something, so Imra's impulsive act here goes on to mangle and corrupt 10 years of someone elses life.

'Cause, it's not a witch-hunt without the pitchforks!

The two of them just saying, 'Wow, that was a mistake,' and consciously choosing to never mention it again, would be a character *strengthening* moment for both of them. Human and understandable mistake made, responsible choice follows.

Instead, we get mistake made, followed by *irresponsible* choice, and, I fear, a ham-fisted 'Imra messed up Rokk's life and everybody gets to feel that it's totally justified when she gets called out on it' morality tale.

The little bits of tender and couple-y interaction we see in LSH 3, where Garth finds Imra and they agree to find their kids together, is just flat-out tainted by this new revelation.

What's the point of building up Imra in issue 1, and and making her likable, possibly doing the best job of that that's been done for years, only to sling mud on her? It's Superboy Prime all over again.

"Isn't this character the *coolest!* Oh wait, he's a complete dick, and symbolically represents the worst stereotypes of basement-dwelling internet-trolling Comic. Shop. Guy. fanboys! Haha, don't you look stupid for liking him!"

Will Garth and Imra come out of this with a stronger relationship? I don't care, because if they do, it will be because Garth forgave Imra for being a bad dirty girl, and I like that not at all.

Will there be nothing to 'come back from,' because Imra just mind-wipes anyone who finds out about it to maintain her secret?

I like that *even less.*

Haven't read the issue yet.
But, isn't it possible that she felt guilty, or panicked (she is young after all) after the fact and mindwiped Rokk without giving it a lot of thought?

Something else else that as she got older and began to understand her powers more, she talked to Rokk about it, and reversed it.
Then she vowed to not do something like that again.

Paul's a great writer and used a lot of sub-plots in his writing.
I'd give it a chance - this could be leading to something else entirely......or I could be entirely wrong and he just f***ed up big time.

While I question where Levitz is going with this - ie, will this be brought up in the present day stories or play out in some way in upcoming ADVENTURE stories - I have no huge problem with this. This is very very early in the LSH's history, she was not at all linked to Garth or anyone else, she was young, and she hooked up. None of that is questionable. Mindwiping, however, yes, that is questionable. But, she was young and she panicked. And it's not like she didn't essentially mindwipe Superboy after every adventure, so there's some tentative precedent, though this instance is absolutely selfish.

In any case, bottom line, this does not make me think less of Imra as a character at all.

Hmm... to keep with the Silver Age spirit, maybe the consequences of teenagers getting drunk and having sex should reflect the consequences appropriate to that era...

Maybe Imra has a period where she has to... er... go away and.... er... visit sick relatives for, say, about nine months or so.

Actually, I don't think that her mind-wiping Rokk was "absolutely selfish." She also did it, in part, for the good of the Legion. Just like she did in other established precedents.

I don't get it EDE, are you saying there was no space birth control in the silver age? Oh wait I guess this story retcons events from the pre-pill age (1963 maybe?).


Now my fun theory. Because there are two titles, Was this all done to introduce a mysterious villain in LSH v6?

You heard it here first true believers, A blonde guy with both magnetic and mental powers will ambush the Legion in v6. Someone left him on the steps of the space orphanage 9 months after the events of this Adventure issue. And he had a miserable childhood as an abused orphan at the hands of 'celibate' space clergy. Now with space access to information laws he found his birth mother and boy is he pissed.

On a serious note, When the retro legion began I warned present company that these weren't the same characters you knew any more than the reboot or threeboot versions, they just have more of the old continuity. Changing sensibilities in society, which are represented by the creators of comics completely preclude the possibility of going home again.

There were space-condoms, but only space-sailors and space-prostitutes used them, and properly raised young men and women didn't know about such things!

Hmm... someone with motivation to spacenap the Ranzz kids, perhaps?

So since is before Ultra-boy joined the team, they have no knowledge of this, I see.

But as far as comics go, things changed a lot more from the Silver Age to the 1980's than from the 1980's today. Which means you'd have to say that not only isn't this the original Legion, the 1980's Legion wasn't the original Legion either. And this is a lot closer to the 1980's Legion than the 1980's was to the original.

I'll have to disagree with you on this. Superficially the current version resembles the 80s version more than the 80s resemble Adventure. But the comic book medium itself in the 80s still was closer to the 60s than it is now.

In the 60s and 80s comics were a broadcast medium aiming at broad audience. They were available at a wide variety of retail outlets. The comic industry today is the ultimate narrow-cast industry.

While the Legion is starting similar to the late 1980s at current, I'd say the greater possibility is that the modern storytelling will pull further away from the 80s than the 80s were from the silver age.

Forces I see pulling in this direction include

1)in the 80s you had an almost uninterrupted publication history for this Legion;
2) there were the vestiges of the CCA (which would naturally preclude crazy 'adult-oriented' turns of character);
3) and most importantly several hundred thousand paying fans who would not tolerate such drastic changes to their heroes.
4) in the 80s editors were trained in the old need to ensure a neverending battle (ie a stable status quo that lasted hundreds of issues) while today editors are more likely to want to shake things up or let a hot creator have their way to try to attract a bigger audience.

The way I see it, retcons and a recasting of past stories with modern sensibilities is only going to accelerate.

I don't know what you guys are talking about. This was my favourite issue of Adventure so far. And I think Saturn Girl was acting completely in-character all the way along. She talks a good game about not wanting to misuse her powers, but she crosses that line a lot. I'm looking forward to the next issue.

We have our Vulcan parody! Instead of the Summers brothers we have the Ardeen brothers.

I don't about 31st century Earth or Titan, but teenagers in this day and age have sex and live with the consequences. I remember being at my locker, and there was a girl talking to another girl she gave money to so she could have an abortion.

That being said, I did tons of mean and stupid things when I was a teenage girl. I think this was an instance of Imra being an arrogant teenager.

I read it. I also read most of the reviews here as well.

I like the story but I agree this title needs to go somewhere quick. I recently read some of the old Adventure stuff and would love if Paul touches on some old stories from a different point of view.

Didn't think Imra's half naked outfit was out of character. First time I was introduced to her she was dressed like that.

gads
That's NOT what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about BRAIN DEVELOPMENT and what goes with it.
Young teens are going through hell physically, mentally and emotionally, hormones and grow spirts and confusion.
And that goes straight through to the 20's, imo.
Part of the problems in Vietnam with the soldiers was that the average age was around 18.
In WW2 it was about 22.

And this doesn't have anything to do with treating children with respect.
I ALWAYS treat children with respect, I just don't treat them like adults.

It's not about wheither they should have sex or drink, either, although I think that's way too young for either, imo.

And, as far as I remember, the Legionnaires were quite a bit older when they started tackling heavy hitters like the Fatal Five and the Sun Eater.

I realize that kids like the kids-in-control idea.
I did as a kid.

That doesn't make it logical or 'correct'.
It makes it child like.

There's an army in Africa/the Middle East of children, forced by adults to do adult things like having sex and killing people.
It destroys them.

As an adult, I look at things differently than I did as a child because I can understand consequences.

Comics can ignore them because they're comics but if a question is asked about the sense of that ignorence, I think someone should answer as an adult.

That's all.

I don't know if it would be best to continue this conversation in another thread, but what about the argument Wolverine presented in an X-Men issue?

He argued that as recently as WWI young teenagers fought as soldiers, and were treated and expected to behave like adults. The concept of teen years did not exist prior to WWI.

Of course with life expectancy increasing, it makes little sense that the Legionnaires would be considered adults. Unless of course there was some massive depopulation or infertility (the price of the pollution futuristic cities bring) that we don't know about.

[snip]

Actually, so am I. I'm hoping she relents so far as the mind-wiping thing goes.

Exactly!
That was what I was trying to say before.
Children act as children and their experiences influence who they become.
You can't expect adult actions from children, imo.

Nice post, brigort.

Although some children are much more perceptive then others.

I'm not saying "smart" I mean perceptive.

Just remember Wolverine said it.

sigh
Did you know that Hebrew men aren't traditionally considered 'adult's until their 30th birthday? Just something I've read.

In England there was a town where no one was over 21.
Everyone was dead in a couple of generations.

There may have not been teenagers before, but the rich British send their children away for schooling for well into the late teens, early 20s.
Not the poor of course, historically.

The Children's Crusade included children up through teens.

Anyway, I'm done.

That would be a nice 'out' here. Teen Imra makes a mistake (the mind-wiping). Later, she corrects that mistake.

The thought that many years, or a decade or more, have gone on with this retcon in play, and that it's going to turn into a 'point fingers and judge the dirty girl' guilt-a-palooza doesn't inspire confidence.

Imra doesn't need the Scarlet Witch 'women can't handle power' treatment.

Mindwiping Superboy

1) was done without personal reasons playing a part in the decision
2) was done with Superboy's knowledge
3) was done during the Silver Age where the writers utterly failed in treating some things seriously, mindwiping being one of them

I wonder, has Paul ever heard of Identity Crisis?

From Facebook

Thanks for posting it, EDE. As I said, the content didn't bother me as much as the writing itself and the lifeless art/storytelling abilities to tell that story. That's why I agree completely with Levitz in terms of "what", but not in terms of "how".

Were they called Super-Condoms of Space?

On a side note, The most effective contraceptive of the 30th Century was the Planetary Chance Machine.

"Not tonight dear, I was made team leader and have a headache..."

Maybe they were Nerf planets on the planetary chance machine.


Okay, I said before that the art was pretty decent on the preview pages, but now that I've seen the whole story, it's pretty inconsistent.

As far as the story itself, I thought there was a page missing between Saturn Girl running into the paparazzi and then all of a sudden she's in costume and flying alongside the others and a cop. What was up with that?

It was a quick read and I wasn't very impressed with the story. I thought it was lame that the cop turned her back on the bad guy to tell Saturn Girl to leave. Rookie mistake even to this armchair action hero. Would've been happier if she'd thrown herself in harm's way to protect Imra rather than invite the bad guy to pop her.

RE: the sex scene. I didn't like it. Yes, I know that teenagers "hook up" (hate that phrase), but not Imra. In my mind she's the original no-nonsense, all business workaholic, with no time for that romance foolishness, let alone getting drunk and having a one night stand. She's solid will power who doesn't allow herself any weakness. The ultimate perfectionist. She'll get around to having sex when and if it fits into her career path and not just with any guy who happens to buy her a drink. She'll choose her mate logically and impassionately and then will put all of her perfectionism into the relationship just like she did with her career. She might even save herself for marriage.

This did not fit the character that I've read about for the last 40 years AT ALL.

RE: the mind wipe. That DID fit the character. She's done it before. She'll do it again. Her perfectionism makes her arrogant. She thinks she knows what's best for herself and everyone else. No ifs ands or iron butts.

IMHO, of course.

P.S. I get that Paul is trying to make her all complex and give her a motivation for her perfectionism and iron clad control, but it just didn't ring true with me at all.

I agree with jimgallagher that the drunken one-night stand is more out of character with the way I've always understood Imra, but I'd also say that the mindwipe, while it might have precedents, sounds to me like they're pushing beyond those precedents to a level that I'm not particularly happy with.

Paul hasn't worked with kids who are 11 to 16 if he thinks they're not just that, kids.

I agree that the older they get, the more they can handle adult types of situations, with verying success, given the child and the event.

We can assume that they're more mature in the DCU, but then, he's just proven that they're not really able to handle things, hasn't he?

Sounds like you and many others are putting Imra on a pedestal, and that's why this story is ultimately failing for you all. Always remember, the more we build up our heroes, the more likely we are to learn they have feet of clay.

I'd say the criticsm is apt, but I'd argue that this Imra has yet to become that Imra yet. This is a proto-Imra whose story here even precedes Adventure 247. Presented here is one of the lessons she had to learn from in order to become the Imra we all respect and admire. She does two things here we know she will regret later (indeed she already does) having done. This story works very well as an object lesson for her that will inform her later decisions and make her stronger for having already made mistakes.

That said, she's still had her weak moments later in her career. In addition to those already mentioned, there was the incident with Timber Wolf in the "Cold and Lonely Corner of Hell" issue very early in the original Levitz/Giffen run. You could argue that both stories were written by Levitz, of course, but it happened. So she's certainly had other moments of weakness.


Yes, there's PLENTY of precedent (or technically antecedent) for this in Imra. Maybe one could argue this incident shows why she never crossed the line as far as she did here in subsequent stories. To say it's entirely inconsistent with things she did later on just makes no sense. We don't call her "Ironbutt Imra" around these parts for nothin'! If you've got the power and the belief in your own self-righteousness, it's quite possible you could justify abusing it. Doing it this early may have provided just the crucial lesson Imra needed to restrain herself later on and not go as far as she did here. But she still used her power questionably in a few key instances.


Look, I don't know if I'm in LOVE with this story, but can we admit just one thing? The problem here is NOT that what Imra did in this story was impossible or unjustifiable with what we know about Imra and what's been established with the character--the problem is that it puts a tarnish, a dark underbelly if you will, on an era of the Legion that many of us consider innocent, almost sacrosanct. It's a retcon and a dirty one that leaves a bad taste in our collective mouths. THAT's the problem we have with the story! Admit it!

Paul is not by any stretch of the imagination a bad writer, and I wouldn't exhibit this story to prove otherwise. Taken on it's own, it's a solid character piece with some interesting and realistic themes explored within it. The problem lies with what baggage the reader brings with him or her to it and how the content of the story interacts with that baggage.

In any case Paul makes it clear that this is a story arc, and I, for one, will definitely be sticking with it to see how that arc plays out.

That's actually part of the problem I have with it. I've always understood Imra as being who she is because of years of training on Titan to teach her the self-discipline and control necessary to be a telepath interacting with a world of non-telepaths. So she's already Iron Butt Imra when she joins the team. The idea that she somehow has to "learn those lessons" after she joins the team just strikes me as wrong-headed.

It'd be like inserting a story of how Cos learned to be such a hardcore team player after the Legion's founding. That's not something he has to develop during his stint with the Legion, because it's already part of the character due to his pre-Legion sports experience. That's part of why he was picked by the computer to be the leader. It would just be explaining something that doesn't need an explanation.

That's plausible, certainly moreso than what we've seen so far on this thread. But Imra's training doesn't automatically make her infallible, any more than Cos's experience as a team player means the possibility of him doing something more more maverick-like can be completely ruled out. And let's not forget that those aspects of their characters were retcons themselves.

In any case training, no matter how extensive, is never guaranteed to cause one to have no lapses contrary to training. It happens all the time! And as far as we know, this was Imra's first trip into the wilderness, so to speak. The possibilty that she's going to make mistakes is perhaps higher while she's still getting her feet wet.

A very neat point that. Imra has to learn how to responsibly use her telepathy *after leaving Titan?* Apparently, being Dr. Aven's 'best student' meant that she completely flunked basic telepathic ethics 101, and had to go hang out with some non-telepaths before she figured out how to use her Titanian gifts responsibly...


Chief Taylor has a point as well about this portrayal of Imra offending our own baggage about the character, but it's not just pre-Crisis baggage. Paul himself wrote LSH #1, which we all read not three months ago, and he was praised to high heavens for the compelling and inspiring portrayal of Imra, searching for her children. And now he's tarnishing the character *he* just set on that pedestal.

Similarly, this act, for me, tarnishes the Garth / Imra reunion we saw in issue 3, where she tells him to 'open for me' and he explicitly trusts her in his head, and he offers words of confident comfort, that 'we'll find them.' He's shown as completely 100% trusting and supportive, and she's now been retconned into a woman who has been engaged in a calculated deception for a decade or so. His trust, all 'awwww' and woobly two weeks again, is now a sad moment, as he's gone from one half of a really strong marriage to a blind fool, who doesn't really know the woman he married.

Even the Brave & the Bold snappy patter between Garth and Rokk about 'It's okay if it's your pink fuzz' is tainted by the thought that Garth is making mildly scurrilous innuendos about *a guy who just slept with his girlfriend.*

The incident isn't just bad in and of itself, it's rippling out to spoil other bits of interplay between the three Founders, as there is suddenly this dirty secret under the surface of their interactions.

In Lo3W, Rokk made it pretty darn clear to Garth that he feels like he gave up his life (including romance) to devote to the team, so that Garth (and Imra) could go off and do whatever. That statement, coupled with the mind-wipe, is also *vastly* different now.

We already know from Dr. Arthur Light, who was mind-wiped by someone far more experienced with mind-wiping than teen Imra, that the trauma can lead to mental problems. Is Rokk's entire personality now a warped thing, all stunted like a bonsai tree, due to the aftereffects of that singular event? Who would have have been? Will he require extensive counseling to become anything at all like the man he would have been if Imra hadn't done that?

Will the anger and sense of betrayal from the discovery of this lead to the Founders breaking up and leaving the Legion again, as Rokk discovers that his inability to have a romantic life outside of the Legion stems from meddling from someone he trusted?

Will Garth ever trust Imra as powerfully and inspiringly as he did in issue 3, and did Paul write that scene (and the Imra-love in issue 1) just to put Imra (and her marriage) higher on that pedestal before tipping it over, to make a more emotionally effective crash?


I'm reminded of gypsy curses. The greatest curses aren't just 'die in a fire,' but they wish for all sorts of *wonderful* things to happen to the curse victim. Win a lottery, meet the woman of your dreams, become successful and recognized in your chosen field, huge wedding, birth of a beautiful son that the entire family rallies around. And then, one dark night, there's a crash in the nursery...

The best curses shower one with gifts, before ripping them cruelly away, and that's how the Imra-love in issue 1 and the Garth/Imra reunion in issue 3 feel now to me, like setup to make her more likable, so that it's more effective when she's dragged down.

not all the time...s&lsh 235 was not with his knowledge they told him the machine was for another purpose. (and that wasn't silver age).

also LSH 259 when imra gave him that post-hypontic command to stay in the 20th century..also done without his knowledge and not silver age. he gave his permission after the reflecto affair that she deleted the whole psycho war incisdent from his mind.

There is NO other writer out there who I trust with characterizations within the LSH cast as much as Paul Levitz.

Perhaps we're finally seeing the return of the secondary sub-plot running beneath the main story, just like the old days.
You know, before this decompressed, talking head, written for the TPB junk we get now.

I'm along for the ride, and keeping my mind open. Sounds like there'll be some changes afoot.

Issue 235 isn't in continuity, so it doesn't count. And both 235 and 259 were done to save history. There's a difference between wiping someone's mind to save history and wiping someone's mind out of personal embarassment.

Yes, but they were retcons I liked. I don't have a problem with retcons per se (as long as the company/creative team is open and honest about it). However, pretty much every retcon that's been done to this version of the Legion has been something that's rubbed me the wrong way.

Another problem I have with this is that, despite some Legion fans getting all up in arms about it, this stuff is really pretty blah, plotwise. The founders-triangle idea is so 1990s. A story dealing with the consequences of mindwiping one's teammates might have been exciting, say, seven years ago. And, if you want that kind of story, why not do it with the various mindwipes of Superboy that have been mentioned in this thread? Let's deal with the consequences of that.

(I also prefer a Supes-Imra-Garth triangle as well, but that may just be me.)

All good points for sure.

Like it or not though the founders were the first three Legionnaires, so, to expect that we would see equal screen time between those 3 and others "secondary" characters, both Legionnaires and otherwise, is not realist. At least by issue #3 of this new AC on-going anyway.
That would be like starting a new Batman book and by #3 seeing the adventures of Alfred and commissioner Gordon for a few issues with only a passing glance and/or mention of Batman (and Robin) ... never gonna happen folks.

Let's all remember that this book was designed, I believe, to whet the appetites of new readers and tell them about some backstory about the cast. Think lots and lots of new readers = those much needed sales the Legion universe needs to keep the book going! The founders would need to be the first three characters to be fully fleshed out in order for everything else related to the future history (?) to make sense later.
Does that mean that some of us older readers are going to be bored with aspects of the plot (ie: Garth/Imra/Rokk triangle)? Well, yeah ... but Paul is attempting to augment the "known past" with little tidbits such as Imra's drunken "mistake" with Rokk and then that blasphemous, unethical mind-wipe after that.
This makes things a bit more interesting now.
Do I like ALL aspects of this? No, not really, but as someone mentioned above I am willing to see where Paul Levitz, who's writing I trust, takes it from here.

I haven't been able to read the issue yet, but honestly, this retcon seems fine to me. It makes sense that 15-year-old Imra would have been less principled than adult Imra about mindwiping people.

I get where you're coming from, Future King and I agree, but at the same time, IF it was a compelling story with topnotch art (we can only dream) it could be about Chlorophyl Kid, Insect Queen, and Rond Vidar, and the Legion's niche market would eat it up.

If they want to attract NEW readers, the quality matters more than the featured characters and I'm not seeing DC giving it their best game. I'm afraid the LSH will always be the bastard stepchild. If they really want to showcase the Legion to new readers they need to shell out for some real talent in the art dept. I'm a visual guy, but imho, the art is at least if not more important than the writing. Sure, Paul Levitz did some good storytelling back in the day and I'm hopeful that he'll wow us again, but the artists they've teamed him with so far are not exactly knocking the socks off anybody.

IMHO.

[snip]

You may be right about this, but I really, really hope not.

That might be a good point if this was the reboot. It's not. In a series, the writer doesn't have complete freedom to do anything he wants with the characters (at least not if he wants to write well). What can happen is constrained by what the characters have done in the past. This is especially so for flashbacks.

Yes, it's possible that Imra could do it (though one must wonder how a top student in telepathy didn't learn any ethics), But she didn't do it. We've had over fifty years that assumed she didn't do anything like that. Changing it now is like suddenly saying "and back in the Adventure era, Garth was really Proty".

I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts on this issue into words. Kudos to everyone here for being so articulate about it. I appreciate Levitz taking the time to post some of his thoughts on Facebook. I've read the story again. It's a very uncomfortable read for me. I don't like what I feel when I read it. At the same time, I am intrigued. I think Levitz wanted to make me feel uncomfortable. The fact that he was able to succeed at that has me a bit excited and hopeful.

They teach ethics in business school and we don't always see it in practice. Regardless of training, Saturn Girl could make a serious/stupid mistake - and learn from it, or overcompensate for the error in judgment. In terms of how I view her, this doesn't seem out of character.

Was she revisiting that event when she went back to Titan to her own private room and thoughts?

This retcon doesn't bother me, as a new layer to Imra's personality but I'd agree that it does raise uncomfortable (albeit interesting) questions.

We've had a few stories where Brainy goes insane with bad consequences; imagine Imra going off the deep end and messing with everyone's memories.

Story-wise, I would have preferred that the intimate relationship with Rokk had just remained on the back burner, gently boiling, for added tension. But maybe the tension will still be there.

The Imra-Garth-Supes triangle - that could be interesting; there's precedence for the attraction in the old adult Legion story and Johns did establish her attraction to Kal when they first met. Superboy has been played pretty innocent, however; more like a kid who hasn't gone beyond holding hands.

Enjoyed the story, hated the ending. Why did Paul title it "Saturn Rising?" It appeared to be more of a major tumble. Oh, and for those who claim the story contradicts John's rewrite of ADV#247 in SUPERMAN:SO #2, Brainy was merely announcing the initial voyage of the Time Bubble, it could easily be later stated that it failed, and the Time Bubble did not become fully successful until later.

Lightning Lad--Suprisingly, at this point, Garth is the only Legionnaire truly enjoying life, he is not troubled by the leadership/effective-use-of-powers issues eating at Cos or the self doubt that plagues Imra. He is merely doing what he feels is right and loving it. The cover was extremely misleading, as he evinces no jealousy at all, Garth not only twits the others of being a tabloid couple, it is at his own suggestion (confident in his own abilities) that the other two team up. The mention of Zendak was welcome (though one has to wonder what he does later to deserve a posting on Takron-Galtos), however it might have been a nice touch to team Garth with fellow Winathian, Captain Trake. The most dismaying thing Garth did was coining "The Ice Queen" tag on Imra, which he could have done to hide his true feelings for her from Rokk.

Cosmic Boy--Everyone has been mostly dumping on Imra--and not without cause. Still Rokk is hardly the mere innocent victim of a mindwipe. After a traumatic event, and assuring Imra "he is there for her," what does he do? He convinces her to go out and drink in public (something Imra probably would not have done on her own) and insteading of watching out for her, allows both of them to get so hammered they can't remember how they ended up naked in his quarters in the morning. Later (admittedly after the mindwipe) he breaks his word given only hours before, deciding to steer clear of Imra from then on. In truth, Rokk does not come off much better in this story than her.

Saturn Girl--Her mindwipe of Cos is indefensible (and perhaps even unnecessary, as she had no memory of the previous night, odds were that he didn't either, unless Rokk was the one who took advantage of her) yet under her reasonings, very characteristic of her need to protect the Legion. The fact that she does not even contemplate beginning a relationship with Rokk may be telling: what does she know about him that she won't even consider it? However unlikely, there is a slim chance that actually nothing happened (not even a kiss was actually depicted) and that the fledgling Legion might be being set up for future blackmail, as even Saturn Girl realized the security level at the Legion clubhouse was extremely lax. Perhaps, not a plausible plotline, but one many of us Legion readers would probably prefer...

The clause in parentheses negates the rest of the sentence here.

Yes, but she seems to be rationalizing it, and even if you give her the benefit of the doubt and assume it really did help protect the Legion, there was obviously a large component of personal involvement in her decision.

[snip]

Good point. I guess somebody could argue, that yeah-- that's kind of the behavior you might expect from some jocks, but it's not the kind of behavior I'd expect from Cos, in particular.

I mean, teenagers (and adults) sometimes do stupid things, but this is an awful lot of stupid to pack into one story about people who --even if they didn't have powers-- aren't supposed to be exactly like "average" teenagers.

Yes, the story absolutely portrays Rokk in a different light than I've perceived him before.

My perception of Imra is pretty much how Jimgalligher described her a couple of pages back. What bothers me most about her portrayal here is not the sex or the mind wipe, but the fact that she was struggling with feelings of inferiority to the boys. The sex and mind wipe do bother me. It's the inferiority thing that bothers me most.

By the same token, my perception of Rokk is that he was a natural born leader. In this story he shows horrible judgement. His teammate has a traumatic experience and he encourages her to get drunk and sleeps with her. That is not good leadership. It's the total opposite.

What intrigues me, however, is that Levitz has challenged my perception of both of these characters. I can't say that my perceptions truly square with how they were portrayed during the original Adventure era. To be honest, the Adventure era portrayals were sometimes inconsistent and one dimensional.

While we have all been arguing about contradictions to this era, and wondering if Paul has lost touch a little bit, he snuck up behind us and knocked Rokk and Imra off their pedestals. As a writer, he's claiming these characters as his own, whether we like it or not. I'm not sure if I like how he is doing it. However, I don't think we will get passed some of the current debates unless he does it. I hope that makes sense...

But great leaders are known for their love affairs! Julius Caesar was a great leader, but found time for three marriages plus affairs with Cleopatra VII and Eunoe of Maurentania. I think that as he gets older, Cosmic Boy calculates his risks to avoid political fallout (the reason he sticks to non-Legionnaires, IMO). But at this point there is only three members of the Legion, there isn't much he can do without the consent of Garth and Imra.

Please tell me you are joking.

If this is true, this is a horror on the level of Brainwave Jr's eradication of Lyta Trevor's memories of her parents in Infinity Inc.

I left this issue at the CBS in favor of some JLE back-issues... looks like I may have made the right choice.

OR, we can turn the joke around on Cosmic Boy, who has always been an asshat anyway, and say, "What a terrible lay he must have been to drive Imra to celibacy!"

it just seems so pointless she is married with two kids to the man who died for her. Cosmic boy has his own Problems with his love life. none of them having to do with his best friend wife. they are not 15 any more telling a story that happened when they are 15 that one of them can't remember that just lower my opinion of the two people involved

i like the pedestals,give them back. the very big thing that both the reboot and three boot were missing was strong moral values. These are SUPERMAN'S FRIENDS. the people who helped shaped a kid who was different alone and and outsider who went home every day feeling a bit crappy about himself for being weird, its all well and good that his parents told him 'you're special' but what teenager wants to hear that? most kids want to fit in. along comes kids who are just as strange and weird as he is , and they go around helping others , that they have code. Clark's friends made him want to strive to be as good as they are

i don't see how it affects anything. i could be wrong and it show up latter but why does there need to be drama between the founders, and something over something that happen years and years ago. they could have done a similar story that didn't play on that stupid triangle, for example Shadow lass joined the legion cause she had a crush on brainiac 5 why not show her getting him to go on a date and her realize that he's not what she is looking for? or all the flirting Dream and Brainy did over the years why couldn't they do a story with her and brainiy having a hook up on one of her brakeups with Star boy, Hell i would love to see a issue of Atom girl going on a date with colossus boy see why she is not interested in him and him and why he was so infatuated with her , it would have been nice to see story they implimed that Condo had crush of lyle why not an issues of having a one sided crush on lyle, or a contest of star boy and Chameleon boy trying to get the most numbers

i like the founders, but mostly when they are not in the same room, there are other legionaries lets see some issues with them

What is also funny here is how Imra immediately regrets her vow of celibacy after learning she's about to meet Kal-El! Imra wanted to jump his BONES!!!

Maybe Imra was just repressed a little too much on Titan, and those ragin' hormones were a-yearnin' to be unleashed! And if something happened with Supes, well, the consequences could have been particularly worrisome with time travel involved. Oh...right! Kal got routinely (at least partially) mind-wiped, didn't he?

Hey, someone play "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'" on the space-jukebox!

I'd say, since I read it today, that there's much ado about nothing.
Does Imra even remember what happened?

Anyway, the whole issue was soooo boring.
And icky.

im upset that it could have a been a cute story about something in the legions past and it just felt like a waste of space

Maybe The Legion has a new team of super-villains : The League Of Fanatic Moralists...

My problem isn't with the tryst at all. I want to know why Imra (once again, or for the first time depending on how you look at it) takes it upon herself to decide what is best for everyone else.

I have ALWAYS hated this aspect of the character and Paul had done a great job in the new series making me actually like her.

The problem is now that he just reinforced the shameless hussy aspect of her, and this time, I doubt that much of anything will make me like her again.

As I said in a previous post, her perfectionism makes her arrogant. She thinks she knows what's best because she cannot accept any weakness on her own part and she uses her powers to circumvent weakness in others. She's on quite the little power trip and it's time she got her comeuppance. IMHO of course.

Well, there were some really good ideas in the story. But the whole thing was run through so quickly that none of them were really allowed to develop as they could have.

I mean, we had poor Sergeant Red Shirt bumped off before we ever got a chance to learn much of anything about her. (Oh, and go, DC! It's always important to rack up a few more dead POC, given your current track record in that regard. Great. Just great. :rolleyes: ) Now her death is this great motivator for Imra, but how can we feel that when we never got to know anything about her except that she liked the idea of the Legion but didn't want to admit it out loud?

We have Rokk being all solicitous of Imra one second and suddenly deciding to stay away from her (post-mindwipe) for reasons that don't actually make any logical sense.

The ideas had potential, but they just didn't come together well.

The art has its ups and downs. The opening sequence is fairly good, despite the totally jarring transitions that follow it. The rest... not so good.

I guess if I gave out stars for these kinds of things, I'd go with two stars.

Just noticed something puzzling. An object on Cosmic Boy's bed stand sure looks like a flight ring in this period of flight belts. Did Imra actually mind-wipe a Rokk from the future? What's with the removal of flight rings signalling sex anyway? Can only recall it being used once before, when Shvaughn tossed Jan's off during the Baxter era...

Well, the Flight Rings include their life support stuff, so I guess this means that the sex was unprotected.

How isn't 235 in continuity??? and there was nothing about what the legion did in 235 and especially 259 that was done to save history. In 235 the basis of the story was about Superboy using the knowledge of extended life to give it to his parents, and saving him the temptation to use such knowledge on them and others, there was nothing about saving history there. 259 was done because they did not want superboy to be tormented by the knowledge of his parents deaths everytime he visited them in the 30th century (he would forget anything he learned significant of his future when he returned to the 20th century but remember when he came to the 30th century - such as why he doesn't need to be reintroduced to supergirl everytime he sees her in the legion - That's not saving the intergrity of the timeline.

Now i agree there is part of Imra's mindwipe that had to do with saving her skin. But as she as everyone (and given what we know about her and some have put her on the pedstal should know about her) is that she is complex and has more than one reason. So if she's saying she's doing it to save the legion...and she has demonstrated that aspect of her character in the books then I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt (especially since Paul himself has confirmed this view - i had this b4 i knew what he said and glad i saw what he was doing). And not feel that is all over cause she did this ONE thing.

I think the removal of the rings is more to indicate being off-duty and not available for missions.

Unfortunately, Imra was so wasted she remembers nothing of what happened after the third round of drinks, so Cos's performance levels will remain unrecorded until Cynde publishes her memoirs. I've pre-ordered a copy on Amazon3000.com.

I will argue that Levitz *deliberately* crafted the one-night stand scene to make it morally repugnant. There's no mistake about Imra's horror and self-loathing at her own stupidity and weakness, and we're supposed to feel those emotions, too. The reader reacting with discomfort (at a minimum) or full-blown disgust (mirroring her own feelings) is the writer's clear intent and he cements it with the mindwipe, an action so indefensible that even the most eloquent Imra-defenders can't justify it. Levitz is not letting her off the hook -- he has more in store for her - and he doesn't want us to, either. IMO.

Yeah, she's cast in concrete as the Legion's erotic poster girl of moral ambiguity.. The Jim Lee variant cover of LSH #1 would be the perfect expression of this idea if only she had a more seductive look on her face (maybe she should be licking her lips or something.). Levitz is not solely responsible for it, but he started the whole thing in 1981 and has now given the image immortal life.

I think she'll get some comeuppance -- Fate is going to b#tchslap her in the face twice (two will die in her place) -- but that's nowhere near enough emotional payback to make reading the story worthwhile.

Well, in addition to mindwiping Cos of any memories, she may have implanted a post-hypnotic suggestion to steer clear of her. But I don't think that's really the case. I suspect that Cos, despite being mindwiped -- or perhaps *because* he was mindwiped -- perceives subconsciously there's something seriously wrong with this chick.

I was shocked and angry when I first read the issue, specifically the Saturn Girl sleeping with Cosmic Boy bomb. I have since changed my thinking a bit...
I think what we are meant to see is that Imra is a woman who has flaws ... just like everybody else. Yes she is this ledgendary hero and a proven leader of her team, and now a mother of two, but she's still "human" after all.

I think what Paul wants us to realize is that the Ice Maiden (I know that's not who she's been for quite some time) became the way she did for various different reasons ... all culminating in her become the person she is today.

I don't think we're done seeing her growth as a human being nor as a role model/heroine on this book or the regular Legion book as well.

In defense of Saturn Girl:

IMO the story established two very important items about the young Saturn Girl.
1) Imra was not always the strong, secure, cold-fish iron butt she has been characterized as. In her youngest days as a Legionnaire, she had insecurities and was desperate to retain her Legionnaire membership and be able to "hold her own" with her fellow (good looking) members.
2) Probably before anyone else other than RJ Brande, she realized the Legion itself was greater than the sum of its parts. Her fear was that a one night stand would destroy the new, fragile Legion. Her situation and that of Rokk's was a secondary consideration, and the mindwipe was her way of taking the burden of a potential Legion-wrecking incident upon herself alone, which is quite a heroic action if you think about it. She does this sort of thing later with Medallions and Conspiracies, etc.

The story "Saturn Girl Rising" aptly describes the fast evolution of Imra into a Legionnaire who deserves to be a Legionnaire.

But who is the person she is today? She seems admirable on the surface, but looks are deceiving especially in Imra's case. Judging by the behavior of the two male founders in current times -- Cos is emotionally stunted in his relationships and Garth is inexplicably angry at him -- she has *not* told either of them the truth. Both men are subconsciously acting out tensions that remain unresolved 10-15 years later. IMO.

Side note: Upon first read, when Saturn Girl described her luck that she was going to meet her idol just after her celibacy proclamation, I thought she was referring to Brainiac 5!

Gee, Brainy sure attracts the blondes...

Concern for the Legion was only part of it. The other was covering her iron butt out of mortal embarrassment. The "heroic" response would have been to confront the truth and take the consequences (in private), even that meant leaving the team. At this early stage, Imra was not the end and be-all of the Legion, even if she thought she was.

I contend that the Legion as a group was her primary concern over all else. Sure, she was scared and her response may not have been the best, but chalk that up to youth and inexperience. Her actions taken were to protect the Legion and protect her teammate, not so much to remove her own embarrassment.

It might not be Imra specifically either. Whatever mind-mojo Imra has, it doesn't extend to cleaning up or changing the texture of tissue.

Rokk *has* to know that he did something with someone that night, but is left with a gap in his memory as to exactly who or how. For all he knows, he used his popularity to take advantange of some girl, perhaps even *assaulted* some girl during this alcohol-induced blackout.

He has to know that alcohol-induced blackouts don't happen without *massive* abuse, which suggests that either he's been drinking far, far too much in his teen years, or that he's prone to such blackouts, as a result of some sort of brain chemistry thing. In either event, unless Rokk *likes the idea* of waking up wondering if he's a rapist (or just such a lousy lay while he's hammered that girls get up and flee before he wakes up, without even leaving a note on the pillow), he seems unlikely to be willing to touch the stuff in the future.

His avoidance of Imra in the morning could be simply because he knows she's a telepath. He may have guiltily showered the physical evidence away in the morning, but he's probably reeking of self-reproach over whatever happened last night, and doesn't want to risk Imra catching a 'whiff' of it on his surface thoughts.

Depending on how much this bugs him, he might go so far as to look for security camera footage, or even seek out counseling to recover repressed memories, in the hopes of figuring out if he is some sort of out-of-control drunken predator, or if nothing non-consensual happened, or if *he* was the one taken advantage of, perhaps having even been drugged!

Without this blackout resolved, the most responsible course of action for Rokk would be to avoid drinking, and perhaps to be a bit skittish around women, until he's established exactly what sort of man he is.

There's all sorts of chatter about how Imra's life of 'ironbutt' control could stem from this moment, but perhaps Rokk's stick-up-his-butt control freak tendencies come from this one forgotten night, in which he knows only that he was *completely* out of control...

Cos at this point strikes me as one of those boys who rolled 12 in Charisma and can get any girl they want. They ooze of self-confidence and teachers appoint them to be leaders. You hear talk that they are getting alot, but you can't tell how much is reality and how much is rumor.

This has been my personal experiance with leader types when they are young, as a young person.

How does this 'protect her teammate' though?

Do Braalians have a strict no-sex-before-marriage law that would result in Rokk suffering some dire fate if it gets out that he kissed a girl?

How exactly does this protect him, and not *her?*

I don't think it's un-possible that teen Imra would have done such a thing, training aside, later portrayals aside, but could she really be so far around the bend as to be able to convince herself that it was for *his* benefit?

This perhaps touches back to the more general discussion we had in the 'outing' discussion. Is lying to someone ever the morally right thing to do, or just the (sometimes understandable) choice-of-convenience?

If someone makes a mistake, and steps are taken to make sure that she never faces the consequences of that mistake, does she learn anything from it, other than how to lie, and that lying is a good way to avoid responsibility?

Indeed, the longer the deception stands, the more it reinforces the notion that the lie was the correct choice, which, human behavior being what it is, only would encourage her to lie again, and again, to avoid controversial or awkward conversations or confrontrations about her actions.

The only way 'out' I'm seeing is for it to have come out long ago, and, if mentioned at all in the pages of LSH, it be referred to as something from the distant past that everyone involved knows about and is long since over.

If it isn't brought up, then she 'got away with it,' and no lesson is learned, other than 'Imra lies, and gets away with it.'

If it turns out to be some fight as repressed memories come to light, it retcons Imra into having spent *her entire heroic career* living and maintaining a lie.

[snip]

Tromium:

Quote

...Well, in addition to mindwiping Cos of any memories, she may have implanted a post-hypnotic suggestion to steer clear of her. But I don't think that's really the case. I suspect that Cos, despite being mindwiped -- or perhaps *because* he was mindwiped -- perceives subconsciously there's something seriously wrong with this chick.

Eh. Maybe.

I just can't see these events being unresolved in the "present day" stories, regardless of how we're seeing them treated in Adventure at the moment.

I really hope that the whole series of events isn't something that we're supposed to assume just stayed buried all the way to the current history of the team. That would sorely test my suspension of disbelief, frankly. I get that we aren't seeing exactly the team I remember from two-odd decades ago, but still. It's tough for me to swallow that the team could be the entity it's supposed to be with something like this just ticking away in the background all those years.

If nothing else, some adversary with mental powers could certainly have picked up on it at some point, and brought it to light whether Imra wanted it out in the open or not.

And I'd rather see her work it out because she knew it was the right thing to do, not because somebody forced her to.

Although, this actually does give weird creedence to the worries Ayla and Garth had between Brin and Imra right before TGDS...when they were trapped on that asteroid. Even if Brin knew nothing about what Imra had done to Cos, maybe Garth and in turn, Ayla had found out and that's what sent her packing...amongst other things.

Which reminds me: I wonder if I'm the only Legion reader in the world who doesn't think Brin and Imra were actually up to anything untoward.

Maybe I'm just too trusting or something.

I'm with you Cleome. I read it as kindness and comfort in a frightening situation that was misconstrued by Ayla and Dawny.

Wow. Some of you have thought about this WAY too much. Just sayin'

jmgallagher:

Quote

Wow. Some of you have thought about this WAY too much. Just sayin'

I have not yet <span style="font-size: 14px;">BEGUN</span> to overthink!



<span style="font-size: 10px;">How else would I ever get my fanfics written? Not that I've gotten much writing done lately, but y'know...</span>

EXACTLY how I always saw it.

Ayla swooped in at a moment they were platonically holding each other... she was already completely freaked out because he was gone... she sees them in an embrace... she's already fighting off her lesbianism with all her might... and then she sees Saturn Girl in the arms of her man.

Her mind goes WILD with crazy ideas of the two of them rolling around nude (on THE FREAKING ICE ASTEROID, c'MON Ayla, there wasn't going to be ANY nudity there whatsoever)...

But she sees it, she wigs and then discovers an easy out for her to ditch the LSH and go party on Winath at the TOO TWO GIRLS Saloon.

Add to it Ayla's longterm crush on her brother's girlfriend, and there you go!

And Dawnstar was just thinking, 'Dayum, everybody's getting some but me! Why did I fall for the guy whose body is made of anti-energy?'

I'm quite certain Dawnstar's later lesbian tryst can be worked into this somehow!

Boy, howdy!
I just sort of come here and read what everybody's thinking so I don't have to.
Mostly because some of you think way deeper than I can.
Probably deeper than Levitz can, too.

Maybe it somehow explains Cham's eyebrows eventually going all weird, too. Really, the whole issue is just a seething cauldron of psychological... uh, something.

Re. Frozen Asteroid

Brin was completely innocent. He had no idea what was happening to him.

Imra was not an innocent party, IMO. The way I see it, this was her first experiment in virtual mind-sex without the other person's full knowledge or consent.

She never tries it again in original Legion continuity because the consequences were too dire, but similar experiments can be seen in later realities -- post-0 Hour in the 20th century arc (comatose Cos) and "Legion Lost" (posing as Ultra Boys's wife for "the good of the Legion"), and threeboot in the Shooter run (UB insisted "nothing happened" in the pantry but something *did* happen in Imra's head.) In each and every one of these instances, the guy wasn't fully cognizant of how she was using him -- and sometimes not aware at all. It has become a cross-continuity pattern of behavior for the character that earned her the title "Shameless Hussy" long before Adventure #517.

EDIT: I'm not implying she manipulated Cos into bed in Adv #517. Though they were obviously too drunk to make responsible choices, it was mutually consensual by letter of the law -- until the mindwipe. Nevertheless, the sexual content of the scene reinforces the "hussy" stereotype yet again, whether or not is was Levitz's intention.

Hey, that's my version of the old story and I'm sticking to it.

P.S. Overthinking, yes. Deep thinking, hardly.

It takes two to tango. Saturn Girl believed this episode with Cosmic Boy could ruin the Legion. She removed any memory of the episode, and hence any guilty feelings of it from Rokk. She accepted the responsibility and the burden of the incident totally on her own, and made it so Rokk wouldn't have to. That is how she protected him.

I'm not saying the mindwipe was right or wrong, I'm not saying it wouldn't have repercussions down the line. I'm saying this is my interpretation of Saturn Girl's motivation for her actions.

Wow, I'm going to have to dig out my old comics. I remember that *completely* differently. No virtual mind-sex at all, just two people sharing a hug that didn't seem particularly innocent, but didn't get to first base...

In that one, I see Imra as the one who recognized that even if 'nothing had happened, yet,' that it was *going* to happen, and therefore counted as cheating.

Ultra Boy, defining 'cheating' as involving having sex, felt that it hadn't actually happened, because he never got his pants off before they were caught.

At least, that's the impression I got, not that she had virtual mind-sex with him!

I'll admit that Shooter could have written this whole scene better. Later he's got Jo complaining about how it messed up his friendship with 'best friend' Garth, despite the fact that he and Garth had never been established as friends at all, let alone 'best friends' (indeed, hadn't even spoken to each other, that I can remember), and even been on opposite sides of the Brainy vs. Cos leadership squabble...

I'm not the hugest fan of Imra. But if the writing of this scene is being used to justify the idea that she consistently mentally violates unsuspecting men and then erases the evidence to cover her iron butt, then there needs to be some sort of moratorium on scenes involving Imra, men and sex.

At least until we're all dead, and a new generation can see her as a hero, and not a serial rapist.

I was gonna post the same thing.
Your heads are gonna explode trying to figure out something that just isn't that important.

My head muscle only gets stronger the more I use it, so I'm good.

Everything matters if you think on it long enough, and overthinking it is half the fun of being a LSH fan in my experience.

For instance, I can't even call out Tromium on her completely off-panel speculation that Imra mindzapped T-Wolf into have an ice asteroid affair, because doing so would give her reason to call out my theory on Ayla, Brin and the Too Two Girls lounge.

Long Live the Legion and its one of a kind fans!

That's honestly the way I saw it too. This is the ONE TIME I think Imra was innocent of any wrong doing.

[snip]

In the future, my weirder excursions into the soapiest of soap opera overtones and/or subtexts in popular fiction will all be pinned on-- er, I mean, credited to MLLASH!

[ponders]

Quote

Cos at this point strikes me as one of those boys who rolled 12 in Charisma and can get any girl they want. They ooze of self-confidence and teachers appoint them to be leaders. You hear talk that they are getting a lot, but you can't tell how much is reality and how much is rumor.

This has been my personal experience with leader types when they are young, as a young person.

Imra's led the team, too, of course.

These are interesting points, but I'll have to think about 'em some more...

Just to clarify...
The "R" word is off the table. That's much too serious a topic to bring into this discussion.

Also
I've been careful not to use words like "forced", "coerced" or "violated". Manipulated, yes. most certainly.
I didn't accuse Saturn Girl of being a "ho" or a nymphomaniac -- though her recent oversexualized characterizations have moved her in that direction.
I didn't accuse her of malicious intent to harm people. I accuse her of being a basket case with a damaged moral compass.

The most revelatory scene is *not* in the Frozen Asteroid issue, it's sometime later in the GDS, where a very nervous Imra takes Brin aside and says they must talk about what happened between them. Friendly hugs usually don't call for whispered meetings. A moment later, she's told by a scowling Element Lad (he had her number, all right!) that Lightning Lad has collapsed. Apparently her husband didn't think it was just a friendly hug, either. It's wasn't *all* in Ayla's fevered imagination. The implication is there.

Imra never says "nothing happened" on the asteroid. She doesn't once defend herself; we didn't hear her side of the story. When she enters LL's mind to calm him, she may have planted a mental "forget it ever happened." because after he wakes up, it's like all their troubles magically disappear. Sounds familiar, huh?

Even if you think the theory is goofy, you must admit the Asteroid Incident notoriously inspired later tales where something *did* in fact happen. Other writers seemed to perceive it as I do, including DNA and Shooter.

(For lack of time, I'll defer discussion of Imra's threeboot escapade in the pantry for a "Many Crimes of Saturn Girl" thread, but I stand by my interpretation of *that* incident even more strongly than the asteroid thing.)

I second and third the call for a "moratorium" on sexual content involving Saturn Girl, but it's probably too little, too late. However hard Levitz tries in the next few issues to elicit sympathy and understanding for her actions, it's going to fall on a lot of deaf ears (and blind eyes.)

If I seem too fixated on the subject, it's because whither Saturn Girl goeth, there goeth the Legion.

I think Imra did deny anything happened on the asteroid to Ayla just before she left the Legion. But I think she later said something to Brin about being unable to reassure Ayla there was nothing between them when she wasn't so sure herself and Brin looked shocked when she said it.

Indeed, she's been considered to not just be the Legion's moral compass, but, more recently, to have been *Superman's* moral compass, as the living embodiment of 'truth.' (Then again, the thought that Rokk embodies the 'American way' is laughable enough that perhaps this should just serve as an example of the crazy crap writers think up.)

As I've mentioned above, I'm not even a big fan of Imra, and think that the Founders + Brainy are way, way overexposed, but this scene makes Imra look crappy out of the box, and has the potential to make her look *incredibly* bad if it 'gets outed' 10 years later, as well as having the potential to make Rokk look very bad (if he's spent 10 years catting it up, while having vague memories of possibly taking advantage of some woman whose name he doesn't even remember during his drunken teen years) and make Garth look even more like a jerk than he did in Lo3W, if he finds out about this and goes ballistic (which, given his current 'hothead' personality, seems all-but guaranteed).

This isn't the '90s. Deconstruction is so over. Can we just have an exciting story in which more or less admirable people do more or less heroic things, and less of this 'let's drag them through the mud!'

I could buy a storyline where Imra gets a Jean Grey-esque treatment, psychically affected by the death of her homeworld, her mind having attempted desperately to 'save' as many as she could, by absorbing them into her own skull, driving her crazy as she's got 10,000 people screaming in her head. But Imra isn't getting Jeaned (not her fault, Parallax did it!). She isn't even getting Wandaed (wimmin can't handle power, Deus Ex Maximoff). She's getting Starfoxed (creepywrongbad abuse of powers in sexual situations, see also, Atmos).

Sounds like she tried to mindwipe herself too! :

Poor Brin! His mind gets wiped more often than his butt!

Good one, EDE.

After reading the issue, I think the art sucked, and I wish Kevin Sharpe would be given a lower-profile assignment until he learns how to draw faces. However, I still have no real problem with the story. I don't think we need to view the adult Imra any differently just because we now know she committed some youthful indiscretions. No one deserves to be held permanently responsible for everything they did as a teenager -- if we applied that standard to ourselves, we would all be in trouble. And I certainly don't think the story presents Imra's actions, either the sex or the mindwipe, in a positive light.

This was not Levitz's best story, but I thought it was a fine story, the artwork notwithstanding.

Perhaps he's finally going to discover, after all of these years, that he always really was a killer robot created by Dr. Londo, and that the Legion just re-programmed him to think he was a person, to turn him to the side of good!

And then *he* can be the one that was 'made from Red Tornado...'

Ya know what's funny...I thought of the Brin/Imra thing on a lark. Did not actually overthink it at all, just thought it could be used in conjunction with that developement. Maybe cause I look for things for my fanfic, some pieces seem to fit into ideas better than others...like my Mekt revelation in my fanfic.

I seem to remember an old post or thread along the lines of "What if the Legion had been a Marvel comic?" which had things like Brin really being an android and Jo really being a reformed crook. This may have been back on the old DCMBs...

Pretty much, and well put.

The problem is that Levitz says they're adults.

What Imra did, when she mindwiped Rokk without his knowledge and permission, has to be against UP laws.
That's why Titanians have to wear the Saturn symbol on their clothes for everyone to see and beware of.
She may not get caught, but the consequences are long term because she's considered an adult, not a child in this reality.

My youngest son got in trouble when he was 17 and the consequences have followed him his entire life, since he was plead out on an adult charge.

Dum de dum.

He didn't say they were adults, he said they weren't children. It's like that song, "I'm not a girl, not yet a woman."

But how about 'Girls just want to have fun!'?

And
If the UP says they're adults at 14, which historically they have and it's being continued in this series, and they're being treated like adults by the writer, the consequences for their actions hold them to adult consequences, 'across the wide spectrum of life'.
As an adult, I think that's kind of rubbish, but it's the Legion.
I just don't think it translates well into our reality anymore.
I'm forming the opinion that we need to go with the adult Legion and Academy that we should have now and forget trying to make the past make sense.
Because it doesn't.

I kinda like the idea of Jo having been in a gang as a youth, and having 'gotten out of that life,' only to have storylines crop up potentially from old 'friends' getting in trouble or similarly trying to get out of that situation.

And, total fanon, but since Marla Latham was shown wearing the same shirt, back in the day, it might be interesting to tie them together, and have Marla be the ex-gang-member that helped Jo get out of that life...

Finally read it. Liked the story, hated the art.

I always thought it was odd that Marla and Jo dressed similarly, seemingly without explanation. I know they appeared together in some Silver Age stories. Was there really never any explanation?

I don't remember one.

I believe there was a vague reference to Jo modeling his outfit on Marla's at some point, but no deeper explanation than that.

I kept thinking that there should've been some kind of church/temple/mosque-like establishment that they both belonged to, hence the similarities in dress.

But Set's explanation is close enough for jazz.

I always thought it had something to do with his training.
Later, I just connected the shirts to the Legion Academy.
I'm not sure why, but that's how I remember thinking about it.

Maybe they're both free masons.


Marla only ever appeared in that one story in the silver age didn't he? Marla or someone in a similar costume swore Mon-El in as leader in one panel in Action 392, but that's it I think until the reboot.

Marla appears in Secrets of the Legion, and quite prominently in v4 as well.

The really interesting question about Marla... what the heck is that symbol on his costume supposed to be?

A very stylized green space dragon?

The letter 'bleem?'

Marketing logo for Splorg Hut, where both Marla and Jo worked as fry cooks. Splorg Hut pays them both sweet, sweet endorsement deals to wear the shirts in public as free advertising (and all the Splorg they can eat). Franchising opportunities available. Inquire inside.

The Rimborian equivalent of the digit infamus, a hand with the middle finger hanging down and waggling suggestively. It used to be thought to be a sexual innuendo, but actually was the visual representation of 'This is me playing the world's smallest piano for you.'

Maybe Marla was the one who cut Jo's speedster out of the space dragon and they both wear a stylized dragon (which is what I always assumed Jo's emblem was) as a sort of trophy.

When RJ Brande heard about the exploit and Jo's newfound powers in the space news, he recruited them both to come and work for him and the Legion. Or maybe Marla was already employed by Brande and was off on some sort of expedition or recruiting drive when he happened to be in the right place to rescue Jo.

Or maybe Marla's costume is some sort of military uniform and he recruited Jo as a cadet in the same service, which is why their costumes aren't exactly alike.

Working on a Legion/Futurama crossover, are we?

Now that the original history is relevant again, I'm gonna have to break down and start buying the Archives. I seem to recall that Marla was present for Ultra Boy's initiation into the Legion -- a story set in 20C Smallville, where Jo was undercover and had to discover Superboy's secret identity. In that story, Jo seemed to have only penetra-vision. So, cue raised eyebrows about old man taking young boy on "special trip" for peep show. Starlin used Marla in the "Ultra Boy Framed for Murder" story in the 1970s.

Marla's chest symbol isn't really the space dragon. It looks more like a wrench and a ... a thingy. Maybe it's his trade union -- the dickhead wrenchers?

i remember that it was said somewhere later on, that Marla Latham and Jo Nah both came from Rimbor. that's why Marla had special interest in mentoring Jo. Perhaps the shirts are stylized space dragons and that is Rimbor's crest/flag. seems reasonable to me.

I dunno. I'm kind of inclined to agree with doublechinner.

The Marla Latham (Pre-Zero Hour) article at DC Wiki states in the Trivia section: "Ultra Boy modeled his own uniform after Marla's, looking up to him as a mentor. Marla took him on his very first trial mission before he could become a full-time member of the Legion." That first sentence cites Who's Who in the LSH #4 as its source.

(sorry, this board wouldn't let me link the exact article)

As I said:

That's one wierd costume for an older guy, when you think about it.
Or when I think about it, anyway.

But at least he's wearing tights.

His logo looks like a carousel version of the push me-pull you from Dr. Doolittle.

That would be one interesting religion and/or gang to be part of, I think...

His logo looks to me like something from a 30th century repair shop.

"Marla Latham, Space Mechanic" could have been a Mystery In Space back-up feature back in the day.

I'd totally read "Marla Latham, Space Mechanic!"

You know that the ladies totally would dig those boots on our "Shade tree mechanics." (" So, Baby, don\'t panic... ")

Maggie Chascarillo was mixed up somehow with young Marla. I'm almost 100% sure of it.

Marla rocks. He offers to take Jo Nah to the 20th century for his Legion initiation, and even stops to get them both matching attire before the trip at the local 30th century Dad'N'Lad. We should all have Mentors like that.

He looks like a weight lifter/body builder/heavy laborer, certainly not a white collar type.

He looks like the granddad that Jo never had.

Actually, putting it like that makes Marla sound almost like a pedophile.

(Sorry, modern jadedness stepping in--oh, for the innocence of the Silver Age! )

No way! I totally bet he's the head of the Straight Buddies of Rimbor!

I don't think we care if he's straight or gay.
We just want him to leave kids alone, sexually!

Actually, putting it like that makes Marla sound almost like a pedophile. [Eek!]

(Sorry, modern jadedness stepping in--oh, for the innocence of the Silver Age! [Frown] )

So you came to Rimbor Looking for sexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx...have a cookie.

I don't know what DCs plan is with this book. Okay, the early years of the Legion are kind of hazy so it's absolutely okay to add some stories about them. But in my eyes, Adventure Comics introduces to many changes to the classic continuity. Brainiac 5 in the time institute, I can live with that. But meeting Superboy before Tinya and Luornu joined? Isn't that way too early? According to Secrets of the Legion (one of my alltime favorite minis), Superboy joined not before five others had become Legionnaires.

This book really does not make all that much sense... which is a pity...

Finally read this issue about an hour ago... and I'm already having trouble remembering what happened in it.

I wouldn't mind these retcons so much if they were in service of an interesting story - but Paul is telling some of the most boring Legion stories of all time here.

And yet, they could be SO good. The Adventure era is a goldmine of untapped potential. So many untold stories and characters we could be seeing.

And yet we're getting... this.

And now DC has announced that a new character is going to be taking over this book.

What a waste.

What? They're canceling the Legion feature? That totally SUCKS!!#@!!

^ Yes. It was announced at one of those Cons recently that a new character being introduced in the upcoming Flashpoint event will be moving from there to the lead feature in Adventure.

I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk of it here at Legion World actually.

Three months ago I probably would have been really disappointed at this news. But this latest run has made me realise I would rather read an OK story about just about any other character in the DCU than I would a crap story about the Legion.

Good riddance to bad Legion! I hope this whole stinking turd of a faux-Adventure arc is ignored as an embarrassing "chronicler's error" and never referred to again.

What scares me most is the thought that the horrible judgment Levitz has shown in Adventure will migrate to the main book. It's barely readable as it is. IMO.

"Barely readable" is a bit harsh, I think. I wish the art had been better. The stories weren't terrible. I do think they suffered in part because the pictures just didn't seem to be conveying what they should have a lot of the time.