Right! So, in an effort not to make a huge mess of anyone else's thread, I'm going to start one of my own for the reboot Legion! Feel free to read along! 1994 is technically still the archive!
Issues read: Legionnaires #0, LOSH #62, Legionnaires #19
1: I really liked Tinya in Legionnaires #0. I actually like Tinya a LOT better without Jo. I don't know, I think that once they get together they just become "Tinya and Jo" instead of Tinya and Jo, if you get what I mean. Tinya was so much spunkier without him and he was so much cooler without her. I know they're supposed to be the Legion's ultimate couple or something, but I just wish one of them would die so the other could have some character development. LOL
2: HAHA...LOOKIT LYLE. He was so FUNNY and SILLY in these older issues. Actually, I sincerely like the way he TALKS in these older issues. He says things like "man" and uses slang more. In truth, he got a bit of that personality BACK when DnA came on board, but he lost it for a while. Especially during his run as Legion Leader (which I liked, but didn't like) where he was being all responsible. Lyle is more fun when he's not leading the pack and can be a little bit of a jerk.
3: I so hated Imra back in these days. She grew on me as a character as she GREW as a character. She's so whiny and goody-two-shoes in these issues. IT'S COS'S JOB TO BE A GOODY-TWO-SHOES.
4: Speaking of Cos. Oh good lord, he has some cheesy lines in the issue where James died! GOOD LORD. You know, I really like the way Lee Moder (LOSH 62) draws bodies, but not how he draws FACES. And that never changed in the whole time he was on the book. Everyone has these HUUUUGE wrinkles when he draws their faces and looks about EIGHTY. And yet, he draws these lithe, awesome looking bodies. Go figure.
5: Boy am I glad they killed off James. What a prick he was! Was he an original Legionnaire or did they specifically make his character to kill off? Either way, I was actually kind of SHOCKED that they showed his dead body with it's neck broken flying towards the other Legionnaires. That was kind of risque for the 90's. And Gim...they really needed to kill him sooner. That's another Legionnaire I was glad to see go. It was disappointing seeing him again in this newest reboot when he'd been dead for so long in my mind.
6: XS just never grew on me. I don't know why. I think it's because I just don't get into speedster characters. I'm sure it would be useful on a super team, but XS just...I dunno...she wasn't a character I loved, so it was a disappointment to see her be one of the only Reboot members who stuck around in the current continuum (well, apparently until flashpoint, as she's vanished now).
I didn't read these but I know what you mean about the faces.
Kid Quantum was introduced 5YL and eventually became a member of the SW6 team in "Legionnaires". He was retroactively input as an early member (which made more sense diversity wise in the 3000s .. sort of ... everyone could be mixed and taupe by then.
) who disappeared and then appeared again.
He was a nice guy.
Jo got loads of attention and development in the 5YL when Tinya disappeared to the past. I didn't mind them so much in the first Giffen era, they were always together (and double dating with Mon and Shady) but they still got individual action scenes and dialogue.
Someone has a Lyle crush. Brainy will be jealous!
I didn't like XS until Legion of the Damned when she was awesome.
Don't forget about Legion Of Super Heroes # 0 as well.
It may be the basic origin story but it is where it all began for the reboot.
I honestly love this Legion and an I'm the process of re-reading it as well.
I'll agree Lyle was so much fun in the earlier days. (I like that it came back in DNA's run particularly because of Brainy. I really like the concept of them being a couple.
Cos is always meant to be the "heart of the Legion and it seems like they were trying to force that concept in that issue.
James dead body being seen, I think was the Legion's attempt at grittiness in this era. And the 90's were pretty gritty, at least in the early 90's and this was '94. But it being a new and exciting possible future, they didn't want to be too dark...
honestly XS was a hard character to like at times. She was useful but usually just boy crazy. DnA's run we didn't see much of her but she seemed to finally had grownup a bit.
I agree I like Tinya without Jo. We don't get to see her apart from him really ever. Evan in Legion Worlds, she's still just am extension of Jo, because it was all about their son and keeping him safe and then about the journey to getting back to Jo.
Someone has a Lyle crush. Brainy will be jealous!
HAHA! Yeeeeeeeah. But I have a Brainy crush too, so it all sort of works out! *daydreams*
I didn't like XS until Legion of the Damned when she was awesome.
I admit I did like her more during the Legion of the Damned and most issues that came after that. Before that she just seemed so
annoying. She reminded me a lot of Impulse (go figure!) but where the writers had managed to make Bart likable while still being obnoxious, Jenni never seemed to have the same feel.
They got the Wily Cat and Wily Kit treatment ... but those cats were ninjas.
Kid Quantum was introduced 5YL and eventually became a member of the SW6 team in "Legionnaires". He was retroactively input as an early member (which made more sense diversity wise in the 3000s .. sort of ... everyone could be mixed and taupe by then.
) who disappeared and then appeared again.
Jeepers! How could you talk about Kid Quantum and not mention "The Soul of Antares"?
Don't forget about Legion Of Super Heroes # 0 as well.
Embarrassingly, I don't OWN that. I thought I did, but apparently there's either a hole in my collection, or it's in one of the other boxes. XD!
I agree I like Tinya without Jo. We don't get to see her apart from him really ever. Evan in Legion Worlds, she's still just am extension of Jo, because it was all about their son and keeping him safe and then about the journey to getting back to Jo.
Yeah, I was pretty disappointed in that issue of Legion Worlds. I had hoped to see some character development for her, but instead it was just her being saved by everyone and basically being a pregnant lump. Bummer.
Kid Quantum was introduced 5YL and eventually became a member of the SW6 team in "Legionnaires". He was retroactively input as an early member (which made more sense diversity wise in the 3000s .. sort of ... everyone could be mixed and taupe by then.
) who disappeared and then appeared again.
Jeepers! How could you talk about Kid Quantum and not mention "The Soul of Antares"?
Reboot Lyle was so much more interesting than the original version that I tend to retroactively apply reboot characteristics to the first Invisible Kid.
Tinya, on the other hand, was incredibly annoying for most of the reboot. As if that wasn't bad enough, the writers gave her an increasingly convoluted storyline. Her only advantage was beauty. However, it's a classic story, the spoiled princess and the guy from the wrong side of the tracks. Her mother I found more interesting but even less likeable.
Couldn't stand reboot Lyle. He was like the Wesley Crusher of the Legion, and just really annoyed me. I was a huge fan of Jacques, and Lyle "Kid Wonderful" was just too much of a Mary Sue to me.
Lyle the spy was great!! Plus he had his own story with supporting characters and his prowess as a brain was given its due. But I can't ever keep track of these versions so I don't know if that was reboot or some other.
With Jacques they could have gone all Flash family. Just keep adding invisible people. And there'd be a Reverse IK, his own evil spy rogues, a gorilla spy, a girlfriend/lover that always brings him back...
Can invisible people see each other or do they spend all day saying "excuse me?"
Lyle the spy was great!! Plus he had his own story with supporting characters and his prowess as a brain was given its due. But I can't ever keep track of these versions so I don't know if that was reboot or some other.
With Jacques they could have gone all Flash family. Just keep adding invisible people. And there'd be a Reverse IK, his own evil spy rogues, a gorilla spy, a girlfriend/lover that always brings him back...
Can invisible people see each other or do they spend all day saying "excuse me?"
I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the reboot Lyle. All the others were either kinda lame or kinda annoying. XD!
I was sort of sad that they never reintroduced Jacques in the reboot. It would have been a great storyline! I had this lovely fantasy of Lyle helping him escape Earthgov and curing his invisibility (since I think Jacques mentioned that it caused him great pain and was slowly killing him) and them totally having a beer together.
Because this is what I think about in my spare time or while doing mindless things at work. XD!!
Jacques actually does appear in the reboot, post #100, IIRC.
Jacques actually does appear in the reboot, post #100, IIRC.
He does?! When? I don't recall him being in any other issues other than the Legionnaires issue that he was introduced in!
Legionnaires # 66. Jacques is even cover-featured.
I think you're talking at cross purposes - when you said "I was sort of sad that they never reintroduced Jacques in the reboot", he thought you meant "I'm sad they never had a reboot Jacques", whereas you actually meant, "I'm sad the
reboot Jacques never became a regular character after his introduction in
Legionnaires #66"!
[Note that Lgs #66 was a fill-in, which may have something to do with him not being followed up on!]
Ah. I was wondering what CjL meant by "I don't recall him being in any other issues other than the Legionnaires issue that he was introduced in!" I thought maybe Jacques had been somehow "introduced" in a pre-boot Legionnaires issue I don't have. (Yes, I know he was introduced in a Legion Annual # 1, hence my confusion.)
But yes, "reintroduced" implied to me that a new version of Jacques had never appeared in the reboot.
Thanks for getting us on the right track, Reboot.
...you actually meant, "I'm sad the
reboot Jacques never became a regular character after his introduction in
Legionnaires #66"!
This is one of those moments when internet communications failed me. I'm sorry! XD!
Couldn't stand reboot Lyle. He was like the Wesley Crusher of the Legion, and just really annoyed me. I was a huge fan of Jacques, and Lyle "Kid Wonderful" was just too much of a Mary Sue to me.
Word. Having Lyle save the day vs. Mano and on Planet Hell, fine. Having him invent the flight rings, then be instrumental vs. Tangleweb, then almost outshine Brainy vs. the Composite Durlan also? What the hell? I was a big fan of SW6 Lyle, but got really annoyed at Postboot Lyle.
Tinya, on the other hand, was incredibly annoying for most of the reboot. As if that wasn't bad enough, the writers gave her an increasingly convoluted storyline. Her only advantage was beauty. However, it's a classic story, the spoiled princess and the guy from the wrong side of the tracks. Her mother I found more interesting but even less likeable.
Have to disagree on Tinya. I think she had a good start, being strong yet not bitchy (like standing up to insensitive sci-cops on Imsk in LSH 66, her first appearance in Legionnaires 0, standing up to Andromeda in LSH 68) that made me easier to forgive her later storylines. Didn't find her spoiled at all, but empathized with her mommy problems.
I do agree thayt she's a bit better without Jo. Hacing her be Jo's tactician while fighting the Daxamites in Legionnaires 2 was effective, but made her too passive and made him too stupid.
Re XS, mildly surprised at all the annoyance expressed. I really grew to like her after Legionnaires 19, I thought the writers did a good job in showing her growth from a fish out of water to a more confident and effective hero. Agree that she was overly spastic at times, but I found that her caring nature balanced it out.
Re Imra, I didn't find her so much a goody-two-shoes as a very bossy and slightly holier-than-thou type, at least at the beginning. In LSH 0 alone, she mind-read both Garth and Alux cuspin without their permission, explaining it away that their thoughts were simply too strong or lewd to ignore. Glad Cosmic Boy called her out on it though, and glad she didn't overuse that ability of hers later on.
Was also glad when Imra finally got the pink power signature in later issues when she'd use her telepathy. Made her much more dynamic. In early issues all she'd do was hold her head - I think some sci-cops laughed about in in LSH Annual 6.
The scene that really sticks in my mind for Tinya is during The Blight arc, when she, Monstress, Brainy and ?someone else are slowly making their way back to Earth in a ship. And she's bitching the whole way.
It was sort of funny, but for some reason, it totally coloured my image of her, before and after.
There are also the parallel scenes of Jo during Legion Lost, when he thinks Tinya is missing. He then proceeds to attack Garth, once verbally and once physically.
LOSH: 63, 64, 65
Legionnaires: 20, 21, 22
- What the hell, three artists on the same issue? What, did they have problems finding one person who would draw 26 pages?
- It’s fun to see the Legion without their flight rings for a few issues! It’s always amusing for them to have to use jet-packs and big clunky communicators. My only complaint with this is that those communicators are larger than most modern cell-phones and this is A THOUSAND YEARS IN THE FUTURE. What, they don’t have earplugs? Some sort of communications that they can attach to their throat? Something else else that doesn’t look like a car phone from 1996?
- The introduction of Mano. This was one of the “villains” I always felt bad for. I mean, I’d want to kill McCauley too. Truthfully, McCauley was one of the most annoying supporting characters in this boot. I was sort of glad he died during the DnA run.
- Wait…if they were exposed to the open surface of the moon…wouldn’t they start to bounce/float away? Wouldn’t their lungs explode? I’m rusty on my science here, but I can’t help thinking they’d be in more trouble than just not being able to breathe.
- Okay, this was back in the day when Reep was pretending not to be able to understand Interlac. But waitaminute…doesn’t Invisible Kid answer Reep in Interlac a few times?! HOW DID NO ONE FIGURE THIS OUT?
- Hmmmm…Imra can sense a murder from quite a distance away…but when she was right near Mano she didn’t think to read his mind to figure out how his power worked? Imra wasn’t very good at this whole “superhero” thing in the beginning.
- HAHAHA! The man they keep interrupting having “phone sex” cracks me up! His face in the panel when Gim rips off the roof is GREAT.
- Go Lyle! But damn, Kid, did you have to break his arm?! *LYLE CRUSH!*
- Whoa, this cover of Ultra Boy is terrible.
- I was always really unconvinced that Karate Kid would actually join a group like the Workforce. And the only way it was explained was that McCauley was making it possible for Val to travel and hone his craft? I didn’t really even know the character (recall this was my first exposure to the Legion) but I had a feeling that it was OOC.
- And now we’re inside a star. Nifty. I recall that this was one of my favorite storylines, for whatever reason. Granted, it could be my Lyle crush rearing its head again. He’s in this storyline a lot. XD
- I wasn’t a huge fan of how Brainiac 5 got “upgraded” later in the series, but I was glad when it happened. He was written just a tad too caustically for me when he was first introduced, though I grew to enjoy him as a character despite that.
- Again, I find the tech annoyingly primitive for a thousand years in the future. Huge covers for the eyes to keep out the rays of the sun? Really?! No light reflecting energy goggles? Not even CONTACTS? Something else else they can insert in their eyes? Some spray they can put on? I sense a lack of creativity.
- Um…Jo looks like a freakin’ hobo in this issue. I mean, there’s sexy unshaven and there’s I-live-in-my-car unshaven. I'm not all hearts and rainbows, personally. Lol.
Re exposure to space, I read an article on
cracked.com that says, apparently, our skin and circulatory system are hardy enough to negate explosive decompression. ooh! so I guess the Legionnaires acted quickly enough to really save themselves.
Agree on Karate Kid. I remember that in Legionnaires 51 the Kid said something like he owed McCauley his allegiance for some reason - but this was totally ignored after he joined the Legion. Meh. Didn't make sense with his whole spiritual thingie.
Am with you on Mano, frankly. He was definitely not evil, which was a nice change of pace.
Did anyone else get annoyed at how Leviathan was always so hot-tempered? Yelling at poor Cham, despite Cham's attempts to befriend him. Tsk.
Also, not sure what Jo and Spider-Girl really had, but was NOT a fan of him apparently two-timing Tinya and Sussa. I like Jo as a street-smart guy, but not as a two-timing himbo.
On another note, I wonder what Bgztlian Blue tastes like?
Oh, and LSH 63 had one of the very few (only two IIRC) appearances of Legionnaire Mission Monitor Board symbols! I always wished the Postboot had used those more prominently. They were cool, and a very effective way of showing which Legionnaires were where in a single panel.
Late to the party! Wanted to chime in randomly on some of the Postboot's early hitters.
Postboot Invisible Kid I loved. I actually felt he was a great translation of the Lyle we saw in Adventure Comics circa the Outlaw Legion storyline - my favorite Lyle story ever.
I've got to echo Fat Cramer. While in the early days she was much more enjoyable, Apparition really bombed for me in this iteration. Easily my least favorite Tinya. Likewise, I think I only really liked Jo when he found his own groove without her at the end of Legion Lost and later The Legion.
In regards to XS, I'd like to think Waid was really smart with handling her. Had she been a confident hero from the start and everyone's drinking buddy, I'm not sure if as many people would have cared or been impressed with her. Conversely, I know making her seem meek initially may have turned off a few fans as well, but it filled a personality void at the time to let her stand on her own two feet.
I think he was also smart to give her a spotlight early on (Legionnaires #19) and then laid off her heavy focus for a good...year? I like that he continued her progression silently in the background, to possibly not annoy fans by focusing on the new kid so much but also showing she was finding her own. I think as early as her guest spots in Impulse (also written by Waid) you could see how cool and collected a super-heroine she had become, compared to her debut. Sadly, when she came back under the Toms I do think they let her quirks of speedtalkingwoah and boy confusion overshadow her.
As for the issues in discussion...
LSH v4 #63 is one of my favorite issues for the hope it gave for the future of the reboot. I liked the introduction of their new Headquarters and the hints that the Legion would grow swiftly. It brought in Tenzil & Brainy proper, featured an adequate glimpse of downtime, showed XS striving to improve, and continued from the SW6 title's legacy of utilizing Mano as a true villain in his own right rather than the forgettable fifth wheel of the Fatal Five. I -loved- Brian Stelfreeze's art on the filler pages and was sad we didn't see more of him.
Loved the idea of a second team of heroes as rivals without being an outright LSV. I think having Live Wire transition over smartly helped ensure their paths would cross often with the Workforce, seeing as how several members were clearly designed to transition to the Legion eventually (Jo and Val mainly). It also allowed them to bring in Spark in an homage to Ayla starting on the Legion as a solo. I grew to love Inferno eventually, but I hated the notion that she was a Dirk replacement. I also hate that, in the long term, Spider-Girl never really went on to do anything after Jo except be hired help.
While I enjoyed the Planet Hell storyline for what it clearly was - a chance to pair the Workforce up with the Legion and watch the sparks fly - I think the storyline would have been better placed AFTER Andromeda, Vi, and Kinetix joined up. That way the reunion with Live Wire could have more impact than "Oh, that was an issue ago!" and there'd be a reason Andromeda knew where Planet Hell was when she chose to exile herself. The prison riot would have also been a good proving ground for the rookies, especially Vi as her hand-to-hand combat skills really weren't featured again until after Year One.
I always did think it was a shame that Kinetix, Violet and Andromeda hadn't been included in the Trade because they joined just after Planet Hell. Having Garth meet THREE new Legionnaires certainly would have been impactful - only problem is having Andromeda along on Planet Hell would have sucked a lot of drama out. "Oh, we're stuck in the Sun. Hey Andromeda, round up all the prisoners and then fly over to Colu for help, ok?" Hmmm, maybe not - they could have had most of the drama happen while Andromeda was off looking for help.
I always wondered about Inferno (and later on, Sensor). Was the female Inferno originally created as a replacement Sun Boy? If so, why? If the need for gender-balance, there were so many other females they could have brought in (and it's not like the Legion was imbalanced - by LSH 66 they had 8 female and 5 males in the active roster).
Just like with Sensor, it seemed like change for the sake of change. Of course, Dirk Morgna was eventually introduced, making it clear they were not one and the same. But I'm sure there was a lot of speculation on it at the beginning.
My impression at the time was that it was some sort of cosmic irony that the Legionnaire famous for his womanizing was rebooted as a woman.
....only problem is having Andromeda along on Planet Hell would have sucked a lot of drama out. "Oh, we're stuck in the Sun. Hey Andromeda, round up all the prisoners and then fly over to Colu for help, ok?" Hmmm, maybe not - they could have had most of the drama happen while Andromeda was off looking for help.
See, I think it would have made for great story. Most of the prisoners were aliens, so she wouldn't want to touch them. I think her unwillingness to touch humanoid aliens is more impacting than giant spiders. Plus having to reel her in while they were taken prisoner would have made for some good scenes, seeing as how half of them could have broken out except they likely didn't want to risk each others lives if lasers started flying. There's always plot convenience that another Daxamite, like say ROXXAS or the four Daxamite horsemen, could have been there. They could have fled the planet once free, starting the Trom storyline, and then Andromeda could have been locked in his cell.
My impression at the time was that it was some sort of cosmic irony that the Legionnaire famous for his womanizing was rebooted as a woman.
Love this. Like button.
I always did think it was a shame that Kinetix, Violet and Andromeda hadn't been included in the Trade because they joined just after Planet Hell. Having Garth meet THREE new Legionnaires certainly would have been impactful - only problem is having Andromeda along on Planet Hell would have sucked a lot of drama out. "Oh, we're stuck in the Sun. Hey Andromeda, round up all the prisoners and then fly over to Colu for help, ok?" Hmmm, maybe not - they could have had most of the drama happen while Andromeda was off looking for help.
Did you forget that Planet Hell was inside a RED sun?
Oooh, red sun. It's almost like this story was begging to have Andromeda in it but they just got so excited they did it early. Kinetix would have been helpful digging up supplies with Brainy. Violet could have calmed Gim down, etc.
Yes, I definitely did forget it was in a red sun
What stuck in my mind was XS' line, "It's inside... the Sun?" and somehow I was left with the impression it was in OUR Sun.
Ah, what could have been! Imagine Cos/Gim having to force Andromeda to join the team inside the Sun. Laurel: "BUT I DON'T HAVE ANY POWERS IN THERE!" Gim: "Tough. You have a transuit, an Omnicom, and a jetpack too. Or are you saying you're nothing without your powers?"
Heck, Kinetix and Violet could also both have broken out on their own just like Apparition did (only to waste her escape being all shocked by Jo and Sussa kissing, go figure).
One more plus for this portion of the Reboot? Despite having nearly all the early missions involve the whole active Legion roster, they managed to juggle everyone well enough that nobody felt left out.
Thinking on Violet's mission involvement made me realize what you said is true, Ibby. Planet Hell is really the last time we get the whole Postboot Legion together on a mission until the end of the White Triangle War. Even with the Composite Durlan, Andromeda was sent packing.
I appreciate that, unlike the Threeboot, Waid took his time to depict the establishment of this Legion. It's smart to do when you have two titles. The team grew quick enough into its name but I feel those early days getting to re-establish the characters and build their connections was so valuable.
It's a shame the Planet Hell storyline didn't serve to re-introduce us to more classic, lesser-known villains. We met Caress again and Bandarkat, though neither came back to my knowledge in-story.
I didn't even realize Bandarkat was a "classic" villain! I'm pretty sure neither Bandarkat nor Caress appeared again, yes. A bit of a shame that no other Postboot-versions of minor Preboot villains did show up.
It was also good of them to touch on the whole "we're a team, we always go together" aspect at the start of the Tangleweb arc. And to be fair, the team had a very good reason for sending Andromeda away during the Composite Durlan arc.
Another interesting thing is how well the team melded together (except Andromeda and Brainiac 5, to an extent). Everyone pretty much seemed to follow Cos and work well together seamlessly, at least up to this point.
Another interesting thing is how well the team melded together (except Andromeda and Brainiac 5, to an extent). Everyone pretty much seemed to follow Cos and work well together seamlessly, at least up to this point.
Writers like Byrne and Claremont, on their Fantastic Four and X-Men runs, seemed to love to play with various iterations of 'like a well-oiled machine' to describe their heroes working together, and even develop some special shared tactics, like the 'Fastball Special' used by Colossus and Wolverine (or the variation used by Reed and Ben, where Reed uses his elastic body as a slingshot to hurl Ben at a large or airborne target). The training room sequences (and the later indications that the Avengers and FF had similar training rooms) seemed to serve as a built-in justification for that sort of thing, and while the Legion not only has a training room, but an actual Academy, I feel like not nearly enough has been done in that vein, particularly with 'the new normal' being teams of super-hero Bickersons who don't much like each other, and work together spectacularly badly...
'Cause, 'heroes' = petulant jerks & moody loners who don't play well with others = drama, I guess.
Honestly, the last time I remember seeing two Legionnaires use some sort of team tactic like this was in the Smallville TV show, where Rokk and Garth 'synched up' to create an electromagnetic pulse to incapacitate Brainiac. (and claimed to have tried it before, less successfully)
(The less said about XS and Star Boy teaming up to create 'gravity tornadoes,' the better. Oy. It was nice of the writer to try, I guess...)
I didn't even realize Bandarkat was a "classic" villain!
Help File doesn't mention a pre-ZH Bandarkat, just the Planet Hell version.
Yeah, Bandarkat was a reboot-only villain.
Honestly, the last time I remember seeing two Legionnaires use some sort of team tactic like this was in the Smallville TV show, where Rokk and Garth 'synched up' to create an electromagnetic pulse to incapacitate Brainiac. (and claimed to have tried it before, less successfully)
(The less said about XS and Star Boy teaming up to create 'gravity tornadoes,' the better. Oy. It was nice of the writer to try, I guess...)
That's a good point, and it is indeed rare. The instances I can recall are more of "okay, here's the plan and it requires perfect timing as to when we use our individual powers", but not quite like how you describe other characters actually combining theirs to produce effects that neither could do alone. Much less actually doing these moves on a recurring basis.
Still, there are some Postboot instances which required some pretty tight coordination:
Legionnaires 75, Umbra uses her darkfield to contain Wildfire's energy while Element Lad encases him in crystal.
LSH 100, Gates teleports Green Lantern's ring energy to trap Impulse.
LSH 121, Kinetix uses a cave floor to shield Element Lad, who transmutes said cave into a magnesium flare to blind the Emerald Eye. Not so much combining powers as just working together i coordination.
Legionnaires 50, Umbra uses her darkfield to disorient Mordru, while Sensor casts illusions to fool him. Particon, Mysa and Kinetix shield the group from Mordru's blast, Kinetix cuts off his oxygen, XS steals his trinkets. Monstress, Star Boy, Andromeda and M'Onel trap him in the metal sphere while Element Lad coats it with metal.
Legionnaires 73, Gates teleports Element Lad who transmutes the water elemental's "jacket" while Umbra uses darkfield to contain the fire elemental. Cosmic Boy magnetically tosses the water elemental through the fire elemental. Gates then ports the air elemental to a prearranged spot where Monstress smashes into it, and Mysa traps both water and air elementals in magical crystals.
I agree though that this should be played up more! A big draw of the Legion for me has always been their highlevel of camaraderie.
I agree though that this should be played up more! A big draw of the Legion for me has always been their highlevel of camaraderie.
These days it seems like writers can't wrap their heads around characters who actually GET ALONG most of the time. It's like they think the only way to write something "good" is to infuse it with a lot of unnecessary melodrama and out-of-character edginess.
But that's a product of the times, I guess. "Dark and edgy" has been the going trend for years across all media.
It's sad, because camaraderie doesn't have to mean that everyone gets along perfectly with everyone else. There can be disagreements too - what's important is characters are shown resolving those in a mature manner and that they actually work well together.
Okay! Let's jump chronologically for a few minutes and talk about the Legion of the Damned storyline!
Apparently this is where a lot of new readers came on, a lot of old readers came back, and where most consider the reboot Legion to have been revitalized from low sales and lackluster writing.
Even more than ten years later, I still loved it. The art was a bit messy (as I believe it was Coipel's first "big" job and he was still kind of getting to know hiw own style) but I think that actually added to the grimey feel of the storyline.
Being new to the Legion as I was back then, I didn't realize the Blight were a new villain to the Legion mythos. Even reading the storyline again, I found myself very creeped out by the whole idea of it. There's something ingrained about the fear of being taken to some dark place by some half-dead thing and never coming back. One of the most disturbing scenes for me was seeing Legionnaires strung up with hoses attached to their mouths. It broke my heart even as a grown woman.
I think what I liked most was the sense of desperation that the storyline had: I was terrified for the Legionnaires. And not because I thought they were going to die, but because I thought they were going to lose. I thought they were going to get hurt. That's good writing.
There were some bads. Some of my favorite Legionnaires had been taken out of the storyline before it even started. My beloved Lyle had already got the chokeweed before the first page even opened. Actually, as I recall from the initial read, I thought both he AND Garth were dead at that point. I recall being VERY upset. The eventual freeing of the Doda was also strangely vague, and I wasn't exactly sure what was going on even upon second reading. How did it blooming kill the Blight? A little explanation might have gone a long way there.
All in all though? It was great. As a teenager I was on pins and needles waiting for the next issues. As an adult I couldn't wait to open up the next issue and read it again.
So...what did you guys think of that storyline back then? Now? How do you think it stands up to a second reading?
fanfrickintastic! that's what i thought.
those creepy covers! jeez. I remember they had promotional posters of the creepy faces on the covers in the cbs months before ... and i couldnt wait for it to come out ... even though i was not reading the reboot at all ... and then i got LOTD and it was awesome.
I thought Coipel's art really fit, i wish sometimes he would go back to that style. It was a huge switch from the previous reboot artists!
XS was amazing here, so was Imra, and even the bound Mon El who was still heroic.
I think the Doda was the blight's power source and once freed the Blight was too dependent on it and died or the doda, once free just kicked the blight's ass.
i remember being a little like ... "hmmm, that was quick" weird.
but now that i think about it maybe it was probably supposed to be abstract, as the blight were so evil, and bizarre and incomprehensible because the doda a very alien life form.
there are some TNG episodes like that ... where it was kinda ... "that's vague" but probably supposed to be vague.
i was confused by the chokeweed too, i thought the legionnaires were being snuffed! and messily.
evil Jo, evil Tasmia, and evil Val were crazy scary, and i really felt for poor Cham being the last survivor, and Cos and crew arrivals being totally out of their depth. I liked Monstress kicking butt heh heh
it seems like yesterday, hard to believe its like ... 10-11 years??
one of my favorite legion stories ever. and one of my rare favorites after 5yl.
I think what I liked most was the sense of desperation that the storyline had: I was terrified for the Legionnaires. And not because I thought they were going to die, but because I thought they were going to lose. I thought they were going to get hurt. That's good writing.
You could really feel each of the character's emotions as they were focused on. XS desperate flight, Imra's cold and steady plan, Cham's despair and loneliness, Garth's panic, Mon's frustration, etc.
This was sort of a 7 parter IIRC. a preview, the four mains, and then two (?) conclusions ... before Legion Lost.
It could've easily had 6 mains and one conclusion IYAM.
The preview/prequel seemed to just be a poorly drawn advertisement for the upcoming story.
"hiiisssss".
I liked DAMNED more than the first LEGION LOST. The big, abstract ideas of the Blight and especially, the Doda Network, were imaginatively intriguing. I enjoyed the action-movie ending of the storyline, with the characters who we'd seen choke-weeded, possessed or otherwise taken down emerging over a hill to literally embrace when reunited with their teammates.
The current LEGION needs such a moment. Big time. Heck, every superteam should have such a scene every once in a while.
The eventual freeing of the Doda was also strangely vague, and I wasn't exactly sure what was going on even upon second reading. How did it blooming kill the Blight? A little explanation might have gone a long way there.
The energy of the Doda's "flowering" was toxic to the Blight, basically. They'd been using and abusing the core energy of the Doda, starving it, and intended to burn it with the energy they'd taken, using the "fire" to kill everything and heal themselves, but once the Doda converted it to the form we see in the latter pages, it burned them to ashes and thus ended their existence.
I can see why I didn't get that. Still not 100% sure that makes sense (the plot, not your explaination thereof) but it's the best we've got. Lol.
Loved Legion of the Damned. I feel like an echo, but Coipel's initial raw style was still great. It had a kinetic quality to it while still showcasing a grim, bleak setting. The covers were very engaging and I loved that a lot of the Legion's cast of characters was utilized or shown, even if they were just Blight drones in the background, so we could see Coipel's take on them.
As an ongoing Legion reader at the time, this switch up couldn't have come fast enough. That past year of Legion stories, splitting the team between the Outpost and Earth HQ, was far too insular for my tastes. I never felt a sense of urgency and all the major new threats each title tried to sell fizzled without fanfare.
The characters read well to me in Damned and finding them in this outclassed setting was very exciting. Having my personal favorites at the time, Live Wire and XS, defeated and desperate was such an interesting first hook to me. This story is the first time I had really enjoyed Reep in years. DnA's good use of XS made me sad she received no attention during The Legion.
Loved that storyline. DNA "got" the Legion quite well.
The preview, L* 78, with the quartet of Legionnaires facing an Emissary of Robotica was well done. Monstress was sweet but not overly so; Tinya actually took time off from Jo; Brainy was intelligent without being snobbish, Cos was Cos. Only annoying part was that it took so long for Robotica to show up again - but given all that happened after, not a big deal. And this was all a one-parter!
Damned was wonderful. All the fear with not knowing what had happened to the rest of the Legionnaires... It was chilling waiting to see who else had been Blighted!
Wonder why Magno, Garth, Gates, Lyle and Sensor were the chokeweeded ones. Any reason in particular it was them? Always thought it interesting that among these 5, one (Gates) would end up MIA for a year, one (Garth) would die, and one (Sensor) would be transformed.
Wish we'd gotten to see a flashback to the original Blight invasion. It would have been a chilling addition to Legion Worlds. Only comment was that, they made so much about the trauma of being Blighted, that it wasn't touched on again after Legion Lost.
Props to DNA for exploring the rich history of the Legion by even adding in characters like the Workforce, Amazers, Particon, Radion...
All in all Damned seemed to rush by a little bit too fast, but there was enough meat to the story that I didn't really mind.
The "final" seven free Legionnaires made an interesting lineup:
XS
Apparition
Saturn Girl
Monstress
Cosmic Boy
Chameleon
Brainiac 5
Quite a nice team with some interesting dynamics!
I really liked LOTD as well. it was a great story that was big in action but focused so much on the characters. That's really what i loved about it and Legion Lost vol.1.
I think that's where it kind of went wrong with Legion. DNA started being more about the action and the grand scale and left the characterization to be desired.
I agree that i wish we saw more of the initial invasion, even in flash backs, and also dealt more with the ramifications of being blighted.
And keeping with the total lack of cohesion or chronological order I seem to have going with this thread, I bring you: EMERALD VIOLET. (LOSH #83, Legionnaires #40 and LOSH #84)
![[Linked Image]](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/Conjure_Lass/300px-Legionnaires_40_zpsfdf0b9bf.jpg)
This, my friends, was my very first LOSH comic book EVER. I'm very nostalgic about it. Why did I buy it, you ask? What drew me to this issue? VIOLET'S OUTFIT, OF COURSE. Seriously though, I picked up this issue on a whim, was intrigued by this strange assortment of colorful characters, and have been hooked ever since.
As far as Legion stories go, I enjoyed this one. I genuinely felt bad for Violet, as I'd always lacked self-confidence myself. As a 16 year old girl, I could identify with this shy, reserved girl who wanted to be more than that.
Upon re-reading these issues, I will say that this particular storyline moved FAST. Almost too fast. One minute Gim is dying and within two issues everything has blown up and half the Legionnaires are a 1000 years in the past! Let me tell you, as a new reader back in those days, it was a lot to take in! It's not as though this storyline was a new concept or anything, but it must have held my interest enough in those days to make me come back to see what happened.
The art was fun! It was neat to see the "Emerald Legion" in all their weird costumes and borg-like group mind. From what I can see, Jeff Moy and Lee Moder were really hitting their stride at this point. Both of them had been on the books for quite some time and I thought both looked pretty good. Definitely better than what's going on now! XD
This storyline sets up the temporary splitting of the Legion, which was actually VERY advantageous for me as a new reader. I was able to get to know the characters in separate settings for a while before they got thrown back together.
I actually bought this series (in back issues) ... even though I wasn't following the reboot ... for the new slutty evil green costumes!
This is just about when I dropped the reboot!
^^The first time that is!
Was it all the green costumes?
Awwwww, I guess back in those days I just didn't know any better. Granted, I was also 16 and didn't have very good taste.
Not sure what it says about my adult self that I still like it! XD!!
Was it all the green costumes?
I'd been kind of growing bored with it for awhile, but after the split into two teams, I dropped LSH pretty quickly because the Legion set in the 20th century with tons of crossovers had pretty much no appeal to me. Legionnaires I kept reading a bit longer. It may have been Sneckie that caused me to drop.
Yeeeeeah. I recall that I didn't even BUY the crossovers at the time. So when I'd buy the Legion comic I was even MORE confused than I would have been otherwise. I'm surprised I managed to get to LIKE this series considering when I jumped on!
I always liked Peyer better than Stern, and the Team 20 split solidified that for me. Both books ultimately suffered for it, but I found Team 20 more readable at the beginning. Granted I'm the opposite of most people here in that I hated Magno.
I'll agree this really was a trying time for the Legion. I hated Team 20 more and it felt much like a chore to buy it. But I couldn't not buy it because I knew it would eventually end.
But Legionnaires at this time was really strong and I loved the Legion try outs. I wish we had seen more applicants.
I know i'm in the minority when i say this. But I loved Sensor. It was really cool to see some more diversity with the team. I think that's one of the things that drew me to this Legion. It showcased more different types of aliens, even just as background characters.
I didn't know any better at the time, so I loved Sensor too! I can see how older fans took it badly, but she was cool! I hated when they made her half human and cranky.
Yeah i wasn't too fond of it at first... and but that look eventually grew on me. But i did hate the crankiness. She wasn't like that. and then they never did anything with her again.
There really were so many loose ends for this legion. Sensor needed a personality readjustment so bad. Before that she was great!
that's where i think DnA's run on Legion went wrong. They needed to keep it close nit and character focused and less about earth shattering things. I mean yes they are the legion and they should face big threats but they should have some real team interaction and there wasn't enough of that i think.
I think i've decided to just throw chronological order out the window altogether!
NEXT UP: THE DARK CIRCLE! (LSH: 106,107,108 Legionnaires: 62,63,64,65)
Hmmmmmm. Not sure how I felt about this storyline. On the one hand, I could tell that the writers were trying really hard to give it a BIG feel. Unfortunately it actually managed to only feel a bit disjointed. All the pieces of the puzzle didn't really fit very well even when the plot was uncovered.
And the reveal of Brainiac 4 being the Big Baddie? Not so sure how I felt about that either. Upon original reading in my teens I think I liked it, but as an adult i'm not so sure. I wonder what the ORIGINAL plan for Brainiac 4 was...I mean, her departure from Brainy's life was revealed in LSH #77, and she didn't become a loony until #106. Nearly three years later!
In retrospect, I would have enjoyed her actually NOT be a loony like so many Brainiacs before her. But, since they made her crazy, I would have at least liked to see her redeem herself and perhaps heal the relationship with Brainiac 5. What were the reasons she was emotionless? Was it intentional? A byproduct of her upbringing? So many unanswered questions.
I rather liked Jason Armstrong's art back in the day, and I still do to a point. It's a little simplistic now that I look at it more closely, but not in a BAD way. It's definitely better than what's going on now! XD
This arc's redeeming factor? LOTS OF BRAINY AND LYLE. True, they weren't interacting, but they're my favorites and any excuse I have to fangirl over them is great.
And the reveal of Brainiac 4 being the Big Baddie? Not so sure how I felt about that either. Upon original reading in my teens I think I liked it, but as an adult i'm not so sure. I wonder what the ORIGINAL plan for Brainiac 4 was...I mean, her departure from Brainy's life was revealed in LSH #77, and she didn't become a loony until #106. Nearly three years later!
In retrospect, I would have enjoyed her actually NOT be a loony like so many Brainiacs before her. But, since they made her crazy, I would have at least liked to see her redeem herself and perhaps heal the relationship with Brainiac 5. What were the reasons she was emotionless? Was it intentional? A byproduct of her upbringing? So many unanswered questions.
The general assumption is that it relates to Vril Dox's deal with Neron, also written by Tom Peyer (which was flagged up when Vril met Brainiac 5 in
Showcase '96 #12. And, for context, Dox's deal with Neron was during Underworld Unleashed - the same time as LSH #75/Lgs #32, BEFORE the B5 spotlight in LSH #77, although this reveal itself was published slightly later).
Description: From R.E.B.E.L.S. '96 #17.
Ooooooohhhh! Well, I never saw that! Poor Brainiac 4! She never stood a chance! It would have been a pretty cool storyline for Brainiac 5 to go get her soul back, huh?
Brainiac 5 and the Legion in hell on a quest to save a soul? Sounds interesting, but even with the Legion's experience with magic it seems rather not Legion-y. It sure would be different...
Couldn't stand Jason Armstrong art.
Dark Circle was ambitious and tried to give everyone screen time, but it felt like there wasn't a good climax. The team was never challenged to a point where I went, "oh Nass how are hey gonna fix this???"
I'll agree this really was a trying time for the Legion. I hated Team 20 more and it felt much like a chore to buy it. But I couldn't not buy it because I knew it would eventually end.
But Legionnaires at this time was really strong and I loved the Legion try outs. I wish we had seen more applicants.
I know i'm in the minority when i say this. But I loved Sensor. It was really cool to see some more diversity with the team. I think that's one of the things that drew me to this Legion. It showcased more different types of aliens, even just as background characters.
I also greatly preferred team 30. Only things I truly liked about team 20 were the restoration of Apparition, and more screen time and development for Gates, Shvaughn Erin, and to an extent Spark and Brainiac 5. Inferno's inclusion seemed ultimately pointless.
Legionnaires was great and I only wish the Team 30 contingent had rejoined before the Mordru battle. Stupid Lori Morning.
Sensor was an OK character and I'm sure she'd have been much more accepted if she had been totally original. I do think she and Monstress suffered a bit from having similar personalities, which probably made a lot of readers feel they were redundant.
btw, what was up with all the amazing Alan Davis covers during this era????
I bought a few in the back issue bins for the covers alone!
I really wished Alan would've done the insides too. These covers were especially good even for Alan's work.
He should draw more huge groups in action more often!
I dunno Peebz, but those covers rawked!!! LSH 80 was my wallpaper for a long long time! Having Alan Davis and Jeff Moy as the 2 cover arts was epic!! I love laying out my issues on the bed and just gawking at he pretty covers.
He had loads of good one but these two are my faves.
(He did a bunch of JSA covers as well)
![[Linked Image]](http://imageshack.us/a/img201/2973/tumblrml41aa4aau1r2zuag.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://imageshack.us/a/img543/4143/legionofsuperheroesvol4.jpg)
Boy, obviously these issues didn't make an impression on me because I can't remember the storyline AT ALL. Must go back and take a look. *nod nod*
Brainiac 5 and the Legion in hell on a quest to save a soul? Sounds interesting, but even with the Legion's experience with magic it seems rather not Legion-y. It sure would be different...
I'd like to think that doing things that are not Legion-y would have been good for this series at this point. It might be kinda fun to step into the whole metaphysical/arcane sort of thing just for a few issues. Hell, the current series could use something HALF as interesting.
I have no idea what the insides of those stories are either.
I'd like to think that doing things that are not Legion-y would have been good for this series at this point. It might be kinda fun to step into the whole metaphysical/arcane sort of thing just for a few issues. Hell, the current series could use something HALF as interesting.
I agree, it would have been a great way to explore how Brainy and Lyle would deal with issues of faith; Tinya's experience with death; ditto Wildfire, maybe have James and Gim show up; Jan's philosophy on life; Tasmia communicating with her ancestors; explore the magical background of Zoe; etc etc
Neither of you missed that much. The first cover is LSH 118, end to the Pernisius/ eternium 3 parter. Some nice focus on Thunder and good moments for Brainy, pleasant enough. 1
Second one is LSH 102, with the Xanthian Legionnaires and the Amazers stopping an invasion of Xanthu. Lead-up to Dark Circle, and Kid Quantum II decides to join. Pleasant enough too.
I guess the later Postboot stories were like that - pleasant, but not particularly memorable. Some teen drama, but our heroes weren't challenged too much.
I'm using my iPod now so links will be tough, but some gorgeous Alan Davis covers - LSH 80 has a nice group shot, LSH Annual 6 (that was him right?) hAs another.
LSH 101 is a nice homage to the resurrection of Lightning Lad, LSH 105 has a good spread showing diff. versions of the Legion. LSH 79 has a great fight scene vs. the Fatal Five, as does LSH 121.
Second one is LSH 102, with the Xanthian Legionnaires and the Amazers stopping an invasion of Xanthu. Lead-up to Dark Circle, and Kid Quantum II decides to join. Pleasant enough too.
I guess the later Postboot stories were like that - pleasant, but not particularly memorable. Some teen drama, but our heroes weren't challenged too much.
agreed. the later half were very much like that.
I'm in the middle of reading the Dark Circle Saga and i have to agree its very under whelming.
Boy, obviously these issues didn't make an impression on me because I can't remember the storyline AT ALL. Must go back and take a look. *nod nod*
Brainiac 5 and the Legion in hell on a quest to save a soul? Sounds interesting, but even with the Legion's experience with magic it seems rather not Legion-y. It sure would be different...
I'd like to think that doing things that are not Legion-y would have been good for this series at this point. It might be kinda fun to step into the whole metaphysical/arcane sort of thing just for a few issues. Hell, the current series could use something HALF as interesting.
I couldn't agree more this would have been an awesome story arch to do!
What other stories do you wish the Postboot Legion had done? I just suddenly had a crazy idea where a retrieve-Brainiac4's-soul-from-Hell story could also have been used to find Tinya's 3rd body; de-Terrorform Kinetix; restore Live Wire's origin body; put Element Lad's soul to rest; restore Ferro's ability to turn Ito flesh, resolve Dreamer's vision about Star Boy's tomb; figure out why Cub was aging so fast; cure Star Boy's power malfunctions and devolve Sensor to her original form. Heck, half those developments could have been resolved by haviń Kinetix release all her stored hypertaxis energy!
...find Tinya's 3rd body...figure out why Cub was aging so fast
I actually did a short about that once. Spoiler-boxed for length and being a bit off-topic.
This story takes place between The Legion #33 and The Legion #35
Apparition lay back on her bed, alone, and tried not to think. It didn't work. After five minutes of her thoughts' spin-cycle, she gave up, sat up and took in the omnipresent hum of Legion World and the uniform grey walls. Three things stopped her from sleeping:
One, her child. Cub was now apparently six years old, despite having been born only two months prior. He'd been two years old before his experience with Universo jumped him forward to five, and in the past fortnight he'd aged another year. At that rate, he'd be older than her in just over half a year, and dead of old age by the time he hit a real-time three. And none of the doctors, nor Brainy or Lyle could find a reason for it.
(For a moment, she wondered what possessed her to call him "Cub," then she remembered. Minutes before she gave birth she'd heard of the Lost Legionnaires' return - indeed, that had triggered her labour - and she didn't want to name him without consulting Jo, and in the meantime Brin had taken to calling him "cub" as his general name for a child. Then, with Cub's aging and Problem Number Two, choosing a name first slipped down her list and became impossible after Universo...)
Two, her marriage. She'd now moved out of Jo's suite entirely as their mutual trust had seemingly evaporated. After she'd read his letter to Imra, and he'd read something that wasn't there into her relationship with Brin, and now, and now...
Three, herself. Or, more specifically, her third self. She'd tried to block it out for the two years since she'd merged with Phase, but every now and then something inside herself reminded her that she wasn't quite "whole." Her mother hadn't known her father was Carggite, and he'd taken her other selves at birth to sell to the Luck Lords to placate them over a gambling debt. A pure Carggite would have died, but being half-Bgztlian had saved her. But when she'd merged with Phase, it had nearly ripped her mind apart, which was why she'd avoided looking for her third self since. Even now, when the Kwai could find her in minutes, she'd been putting off looking for her third self.
She sat there for five minutes more, knowing what she was about to do and trying to talk herself out of it. Eventually, though, she gave in and went to arrange for childcare for Cub. She couldn't help him, and she didn't know if she wanted to save her marriage right at that moment, but she could find her third self, and not be two-thirds of a person any more. She had to do it.
________________________________
She emerged from the Threshold on a silent moon under a force-field dome. Shivering, she asked her Kwai guide to return in two hours if she didn't call sooner, and looked down. There, under her feet, was an unmistakable grave.
The small-holomarker accompanying it didn't give a name, or indeed any details, but she knew she stood on her own grave.
Bundling her cloak around her, she collapsed on the dusty ground, tears running down both cheeks. She'd sneaked out here in the hope of... and she'd... and...
She sat like that for almost an hour, undisturbed, the only living person in the city of the dead. Eventually, the tears stopped and she started thinking again. Realising that perhaps there was one way to answer her questions, she became immaterial and slipped into the ground. Staying phased when she saw the corpse nearly proved impossible, scraps of hair clinging to decomposed skin barely holding to her bare skull, but she found what she was looking for and got out as soon as possible.
Back on the surface, she opened her hand and looked at the touchstone. Not smooth and rimmed in gold like her own, but a simple, rough, red jewel. After her own experiences with death and life, she knew that their connection with the dead was more than mere myth. Holding the pose a second, she clasped it to the touchstone on her cloak. Fragments of memory from her final self ran through her head like a badly damaged holo. She saw the Luck Lord that had retained her Phase self selling this third self to a slave trader, who had sold her in turn with a group of a thousand other Bgztlians to a mining company, who'd thought that Bgztlians might prove easier to use in their operations, on the basis that they wouldn't need elevators or mineshafts.
Every single one of them had died, on the moon she now stood on. Her third self was one of the "luckier" ones, having made it to the surface to receive a proper burial. Most still lay dead in the caverns below.
As Apparition retched violently, the touchstone conveyed one final image to her before it dropped to the ground. One that shocked her almost as much as what had happened beneath her feet, but in a very different way...
________________________________
The next day, after a sleepless night, Apparition lay on her bed once more. It was one of her rest days, and she'd spent the previous night and that morning lying there, trying to comprehend the last image her other self's touchstone had given her and trying not to think of the other images. The rough touchstone lay at her bedside, nothing more to convey to her. Now she knew of her third self's fate, but that was different from merging with her, the way she'd merged with Phase. After unmoving hours, she stood and picked up the other touchstone, thinking of the final image as she walked in to look at Cub's empty bed, Cub himself spending time with a couple of the younger Cadets.
Her own face, on a Jinx-Dog, pushing a Dominator out of the window as she lay beneath in an unflattering blue maternity dress with her face screwed up in labour.
She'd never realised just how unflattering that thing looked. Of course, Brin wouldn't have said so.
She could joke, of course, but the knowledge that she was her own son was freaking her out. Even if it explained why even Brainy and Lyle were stumped over Cub's mysterious aging. Neither subscribed to mystical thought, especially Brainy, who came close to pretending magic didn't exist when it wasn't being paraded in front of his face.
She'd worn her touchstone during pregnancy. She'd phased (against doctor's advice), during pregnancy. The third fragment of... her soul?... had come through and entered her baby, and having two souls was burning Cub out, killing him, she just knew. There was only one thing to do.
_________________________________
"Hi," Cub said as he entered.
"Hi," Apparition's tear-streaked face looked her son straight in the eye. "Do you know what this is?"
"A touchstone, like yours?" Cub said upon seeing the red jewel she held in her hand.
"Yes, take it... just for a moment. And just remember I love you, always." When it was in his hand, she took her own touchstone and touched it to the jewel in his hand. Then her world went black.
__________________________________
She awoke in Legion World's medi-bay, grey like the rest, however much later she couldn't say. Her head... seemed oddly quiet, yet somehow more complete. She turned her head to her right and saw Doctor Gym'll rushing towards her, then turned her head to the left.
There, in a crib, lay a two-month old child with the barest covering of black hair covering his head, Jo standing over him with a puzzled expression on his face. Brin was there too, but facing her rather than the crib. She shut her eyes. She didn't have any more memories, the way she'd had after merging with Phase, but then Phase had been alive, not reborn in the body of her son. And her baby would live to whatever age he would live to. That was the important thing.
"Cub? Cub..." Jo cooed.
"Byrin. His name's Byrin."
"My Son, Myself"
An Untold Tale of the Postboot
By Reboot.
resolve Dreamer's vision about Star Boy's tomb
Surely this one relates to
Starman...
That is a well-written and effective story that nicely wraps up two major danglers right there! I so want to take that as canon. Permission to consider it so in any fics I set in that reality?
Re Star Boy, huh. I share Thom's consternation. Doesn't address his gravity powers malfunctioning though, so perhaps that future isn't set in stone...
Wasn't the Dark Circle story intercut with the Time Trapper stuff (or one just after the other)? I seem to remember them sapping momentum from each other.
The build up to the Dark Circle had begun with he Xanthu invasion, the Anomaly exploration, Evolvo inventing his teleporter, Kid Quantum II and Karate Kid joining, and the Sklarian's attempted assassination of RJ Brande. That was LSH 102 to 104 an Legionnaires 57 to 60. Then the Time Trapper/ multiple Legions in LSH 105 and L*61, and then Dark Circle proper in LSH 106 to 108 an L*62 to 65. Lots of momentum being sapped there...
That is a well-written and effective story that nicely wraps up two major danglers right there! I so want to take that as canon. Permission to consider it so in any fics I set in that reality?
Permission granted
Re Star Boy, huh. I share Thom's consternation. Doesn't address his gravity powers malfunctioning though, so perhaps that future isn't set in stone...
I almost think it's cause and effect - his gravity powers malfunction, creating a wormhole, dumping him in the early 21st century to become Danny Blaine and leaving him believed dead in the 31st, hence the gravestone visions...
As to "why"... his space whale energy and the power malfunctions it was causing was never actually dissipated, just redirected to his gravity powers (imagine Jo Nah stuck with, say, just his heat vision). Why *shouldn't* it still be causing him trouble, especially after the stress of sustained overuse of his gravity powers against Robotica - both on Xanthu and, more importantly, buffering *the entire mass of Warworld* for an extended time around Earth?
I agree, but without 31st century tech and treatment, are we to believe he survived another 3 or so decades with malfunctioning powers? Or I hag what caused his demise as Danny Blaine?
Thanks for the permission
ah, lifts a weight off my shoulders to nt have to think f a resolution for Cub!
I agree, but without 31st century tech and treatment, are we to believe he survived another 3 or so decades with malfunctioning powers?
Three? More like six! That does NOT look like the face of someone in their late forties!
Clearly, creating the inadvertent wormhole and travelling through it burned out/dissipated/drained his space whale energy for good, leaving him back at his original power levels when he landed in the 21st century.
Or I hag what caused his demise as Danny Blaine?
Oh, you hag. You hag lot.
Seriously, seems more like a fight he knew he'd lose. If he was going to die anyway, it would hardly matter *when* he went.
Thanks for the permission
ah, lifts a weight off my shoulders to nt have to think f a resolution for Cub!
Heh.
I accept your wormhole explanation and we shall leave it at that
...we shall leave it at that
Bah! Bah, I say! You're no fun any more
We could think of reasons why Dreamer never foresaw Thom returning to the future
One is that he never did, even at the end of his natural life - maybe he wound in the past. And of course, since she sees the future, she wouldn't have seen anything that happened during Thom's time as Danny Blaine - which occurred in her past!
Legion of Super-Heroes 80 is one of my most favorite covers! and issues. I loved seeing the legion take down the fatal five and president Chu! gaining their independence!
this was really the culmination in a lot of ways of the Legion's first year. IMHO
Yeah, I think that LoSH 80 cover is iconic....plus, you can't go wrong with Davis art. Scientists should work on cloning Alan Davis so he can just draw every comic book ever, especially any with teenagers in it.
Actually, come to think of it I think he would do an amazing Power Pack too....I would love to see his version of Lightspeed!
Hell yeah on LSH 80! It was almost perfect - only the absence of Apparition kept it from being truly so. But nearly all the unresolved plots of the past year were wrapped up, and almost everything tied into that storyline. Amazing, simply amazing. And the look of pure joy on the Legionnaires' faces sums it up perfectly.
Great covers there, interesting that LOSH #79 and #121 both have the Persuader slicing through the book's title. It's neat touches such as those that helps sell the book, I think.
Legionnaires Annual #2 was the first issue I ever bought of the Reboot Legion. Loved it, terrific story, action, and art. That Tinya actually 'died' was impressive back then.
Comment on XS - I want to like her, but it's hard for I think she was underused and under-explored. Over in Flash, Waid had been building up the wonderful idea of the Flash Legacy, the bloodlines of Allen and West carrying on the tradition and powers of the Flash. While Jenni was part of that Legacy, it was never fully explored within the pages of the Legion so she felt like a potential Flash Family member that got lost in the cracks. When she stuck in the past, she felt more like a true character. Lost potential there I think.
Comment on XS - I want to like her, but it's hard for I think she was underused and under-explored. Over in Flash, Waid had been building up the wonderful idea of the Flash Legacy, the bloodlines of Allen and West carrying on the tradition and powers of the Flash. While Jenni was part of that Legacy, it was never fully explored within the pages of the Legion so she felt like a potential Flash Family member that got lost in the cracks. When she stuck in the past, she felt more like a true character. Lost potential there I think.
I think half the problem with Jenni was that her Flash connections kept getting her yanked out of the book for months at a time! Ergo, the writers were always a bit wary about trying to do too much with her, the same way JLA writers were always wary with Superman/Batman/etc.
Legionnaires Annual #2 was the first issue I ever bought of the Reboot Legion. Loved it, terrific story, action, and art. That Tinya actually 'died' was impressive back then.
Whole-heartedly agree. I remember reading it at an aunt's house when I was a wee lad of 11. Didn't stop searching for a copy of my own until many, many years later (when I think Cobie snagged one for me!) It was such an epic, dramatic story!
Comment on XS - I want to like her, but it's hard for I think she was underused and under-explored. Over in Flash, Waid had been building up the wonderful idea of the Flash Legacy, the bloodlines of Allen and West carrying on the tradition and powers of the Flash. While Jenni was part of that Legacy, it was never fully explored within the pages of the Legion so she felt like a potential Flash Family member that got lost in the cracks. When she stuck in the past, she felt more like a true character. Lost potential there I think.
I think half the problem with Jenni was that her Flash connections kept getting her yanked out of the book for months at a time! Ergo, the writers were always a bit wary about trying to do too much with her, the same way JLA writers were always wary with Superman/Batman/etc.
Sadly, yes. I think the problem started after her first time-trip, myself. She was fairly well-developed early on (her heroic arc where she gains self-confidence and becomes a "mature" hero). She was absent for almost a year, real-time, after the Dark Circle as well... And most of her latter appearances touched on her various man-crushes (Cos, Lar, Dyrk...)
I don't specifically recall when Jenni's ties to the Flash Legacy were first revealed. Her first appearance(s) with the Legion has little mention of these connections.
I like Postboot Lyle. Yeah, he may be given too much solo credit for some ideas and plans, but I like that Brainy isn't the only 'smart' guy in the room. Lyle has some sort of passion for his work, a passion that is sometimes lacking in Brainy's world of cold calculations.
Reading of James' death, it is surprising they showed Tanglweb dropping his broken body. What's even more shocking is that they showed his dead body for more than one panel, leaving little doubt that he was actually dead. I appreciate that Mr. Waid.
Then his body was delivered to the 'Metropolis Necrological Institute'........yeaaahhhhh, would not want to work there.
I don't specifically recall when Jenni's ties to the Flash Legacy were first revealed. Her first appearance(s) with the Legion has little mention of these connections.
I'm fairly sure it was her origin story in LSH Annual #6 (they're certainly brought up there. I haven't checked all the issues in-between yet to make sure it wasn't mentioned in passing beforehand).
I like Postboot Lyle. Yeah, he may be given too much solo credit for some ideas and plans, but I like that Brainy isn't the only 'smart' guy in the room. Lyle has some sort of passion for his work, a passion that is sometimes lacking in Brainy's world of cold calculations.
Word on the solo credit. Lyle always did have a flair of showmanship about him.
I remember other distinctions between them. Brainy remarked early on that he (and other Coluans) preferred pure theory, while Lyle focused on practical applications of research. And Brainy snarked later on that even his accidents produced better results than Lyle's best-laid plans. It was also mentioned once that Lyle was more creative.
My favorite bit about Lyle is that he's a self-made hero. Like Karate Kid, on a team full of people born with special powers, or having received them through some sort of accident (Garth, Gim) or experiment / whatever conducted by someone else (Brin, Dirk) upon them, Lyle is pretty rare in that he's the prime mover of his own origin story. Like Kinetix, much later, he actively sought power, and granted it to himself, rather than having it thrust upon him by an external agency.
It makes him feel more actively heroic, than the passive 'recipient' nature of various other Legionnaires, who didn't all necessarily choose this life (although many indeed did, coming from worlds full of people with their same powers who very much did not choose to become super-heroes!).
I remember other distinctions between them. Brainy remarked early on that he (and other Coluans) preferred pure theory, while Lyle focused on practical applications of research.
Which turned out to be Querl's own fault...
Description: From Showcase '96 #12
*GASP* I thought i'd read everything that there was of the Reboot, but I MISSED THIS. I must go find a copy! And oh look...Imra is still controlling Rokk like a puppet at this point. NIFTY. I can't wait to read it.
It's the end of a two-parter - Showcase '96 #11-12 are what the rest of the team were heading off to get involved in at the start of LSH #87, when Apparition disappearing means she & Ultra Boy don't join them. Once both incidents are sorted, they then appear in Superman+Legion and Impulse #21 before LSH #88.
[This is, incidentally, BEFORE the incident with Dr. Psycho that left Rokk in a coma, which led in turn to Imra puppeteering him!]
Okay, next up is a section of Legionnaires that I know isn't really ZH Reboot, but that I decided to read anyway.
Legionnaires #1-18
Okay, firstly, I really love Chris Sprouse's art. I love it. I always have. For whatever reason his work looks polished to me. Professional. His facial expressions look RIGHT. I guess his art pushes all the right buttons for me.
I think that's pretty much all the good I have to say about these issues...
Because I absolutely could not STAND them. Maybe I'm coming at it from the wrong direction, but I have never had such a negative reaction to any other group of Legionnaires. My god, the characterizations were awful. What was with making all the girl characters so stereotypical and annoying? What's with making everything anyone says trite and forced? They all seemed SO two-dimensional.
And what's with making Sun Boy SUCH AN ASSHOLE? I mean, I knew that Dyrk could be a bit of an ass, but this went ABOVE AND BEYOND. He went from cocky playboy to ABSOLUTE JERK. He wasn't even likable!
The storylines themselves were...okay. But I was so put off by the way everyone was written that I couldn't enjoy them. Brainy was so WEIRD in these issues. Garth was so angry and whiny. I just didn't enjoy it.
Am I missing something here? If you read these as they were coming out, what did you THINK of them? I think the only characters I enjoyed were Tenzil and Lyle, though even Lyle seemed a little...off. Since when do the other Legionnaires MAKE FUN of him?! It seemed so WEIRD.
I have to agree with you on these ones. But when these were coming out I was about 10 and I absolutely loved it. Idk really remember why.
I do remember thinking that the some of the ideas like teens in the future and what not protecting people was cool.
I think this was their attempt at angst and giving "edge" to these silver age characters, as i think that was when they were supposed to be bulled from.
But this legion did help make way for the Reboot, which was slightly based on this version of these characters.
A lot of this was forced re-characterisation after the slate of retcons TMK rolled in. Garth here was the so-called "REAL" Garth right? And we knew that Sun Boy would eventually grow up to be the guy that sold out humanity, so he had to be rotten at some fundamental level, right? All things 5YL made this a hard sell. Of course, others here are big fans of the time period, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
A lot of this was forced re-characterisation after the slate of retcons TMK rolled in. All things 5YL made this a hard sell.
Oooohhh, was that why these characters were so odd? The characterization just seemed so OFF. I figured there had to be some reasoning for it. Though, you'd think since these Legionnaires knew their 5YL counterparts, that the future would technically already be altered by their knowing.
TIME PARADOX.
Hey Reboot, thanks for posting that page from From Showcase '96 #12. I love that someone bothered to explain the millennium of stagnation (which at this point may be my most well known pet peeve of DC/Legion lore). Of course that only explains it for Colu, not the Khunds and Dominators, but still it's something.
For people who read the fine print: Hey this is my 900th post!
Hey Reboot, thanks for posting that page from From Showcase '96 #12. I love that someone bothered to explain the millennium of stagnation (which at this point may be my most well known pet peeve of DC/Legion lore). Of course that only explains it for Colu, not the Khunds and Dominators, but still it's something.
For the Dominators, the 5YL explanation from LSH Annual #2 still held, since Valor still seeded the worlds.
Thanks again! Though in this case, if the explanation is there in what you posted, I'm not grasping it. Perhaps I didn't back then either (assuming I was still reading by the issue involved.)
In a sentence? "Valor and his crew exiled the brains of the Dominion and trashed all their data."
Ah, I was reading that as taking just their genetic research, but if it applied to their spaceships and such, bringing them down to 20th century Earth tech level, then that's a very good explanation.
Not as good as avoiding bringing all those 30th century civilizations into the 20th centuries stories in the first place, but you can't have everything.
So that accounts for the Coluans and the Dominators. I assume the Daxamites started their famous Xenophilia upon discovering their vulnerability to lead.
So that leaves the Khunds. I'll bet if there ever was a rationalization someone here knows it!
Are the Khunds still being used in 21st century stories?
CORRECTION: xenophobia.
And why did I capitalize it anyway?
if Khunds are as much Klingon riffs as they appear, then they might have the same excuse Klingons have (at least in some interpretations), that they stole / inherited their technology from another race (that they killed) and don't really understand much more than how to keep it working.
(Same deal with the Horde aliens from the Strikeforce Morituri comic, or even the Earth savages seizing the Vulcan ship in the Mirror Universe episode of Enterprise. It's not a rare theme...)
Combined with a built-in contempt for scientists, researchers, scholars, etc. (anything *not* a warrior, leaving all of their technical jobs to a despised and resentful underclass of folk that couldn't cut it as warriors), I could see such a group not really advancing much.
But, even if *I* can come up with excuses for why the Khunds, Dominators, Daxamites, Durlans, etc. haven't advanced technologically in 1000 years (while Earth, in a tenth that time, went from steam engines to people on the moon), I still think that using 30th century aliens in Invasion! was a terrible idea, in a DCU that, thanks to the Green Lantern Corps, the Omega Men, Rann, Thanagar and dozens of random alien invaders that have appeared in the pages of Superman over the decades, is already *crawling* with cool *contemporary* alien races.
Oh that's right, the Durlans too.
Your point speaks to it being unnecessary, which is also true, and makes the choice to do so even worse. But having to justify 5 races stagnating for a millennium is just bad storytelling and universe-building.
And you've just reminded me, where was the whole GL corps when one little world was being invaded by at least 5 others?
On vacation, same as all of Earth's other protectors that could have dealt with five alien spacefleets.
I mean, really, is anything going to really threaten a planet protected by people like the Specter, Dream or the Swamp Thing?
"Uh, sir, all the Dominator ships, which, I just now realized, are made out of plants, turned into giant carnivorous space flowers and ate the Khund ships..."
"The Daxamites just fell asleep, and we don't want to bug them, so we've just cordoned off the craters where they landed. The leader's leg is twitching. I think he's dreaming about chasing something..."
"Oh, and there's some pasty dude in green underwear and a cloak out there, and he's sixteen thousand feet tall and throwing space ships out of the solar system with his bare hands..."
"Batman is reported to have said, 'I'm gonna go beat me up some muggers. Call me when it's over.'"
Well I never said my pet peeve was the only problem with Invasion!
Heh.
About the only thing I really liked from Invasion! (other than the newspaper they printed up, which I still have somewhere) was the lingering plot seed about Durlan technology left behind being used to explain other metahumans or criminal with weird alien technology for a decade or so.
And the Durlans, already established as xenophobic and averse to developing technology further (after their six-minute war) would have been the one 30th century race I wouldn't have minded being shown in the 20th century, since they already had a backstory of having been technologically stagnant since well before the 20th century.
Gosh. I'd love to see a Dominator plot foiled by Chlorophyll Kid, who uses his powers to make all of their equipment / ships / etc. grow wildly out of control...
Gosh. I'd love to see a Dominator plot foiled by Chlorophyll Kid, who uses his powers to make all of their equipment / ships / etc. grow wildly out of control...
Great idea, neglected Sub saves all! But his powers must not have been strong enough, even when he had gained more mastery during 5YL, he only had a bit part in fighting the Dominator occupation. It could be that the Dominators had some overlay of non-plant technology to resist their potentially deadly adversary!
Why planets didn't seem to advance much in 1000 years, and why Earth's own future technology seemed quite recognizable to us, has sometimes been explained by devastating wars which destroyed a lot of technology and, conveniently, historical documents.
I'm inclined to go with the "bad story idea" scenario and leave it at that.
Actually I will add something. The very first company-wide crossover event (Marvel's Secret Wars) was nothing more than a marketing gimmick designed to sell toys. Every company-wide crossover event since then has been all about "hey, crossover events make lots of money so let's do another one." You'll note that these were purely economic decisions, not creative ones. Need I say more?
On vacation, same as all of Earth's other protectors that could have dealt with five alien spacefleets.
I mean, really, is anything going to really threaten a planet protected by people like the Specter, Dream or the Swamp Thing?
"Uh, sir, all the Dominator ships, which, I just now realized, are made out of plants, turned into giant carnivorous space flowers and ate the Khund ships..."
"The Daxamites just fell asleep, and we don't want to bug them, so we've just cordoned off the craters where they landed. The leader's leg is twitching. I think he's dreaming about chasing something..."
"Oh, and there's some pasty dude in green underwear and a cloak out there, and he's sixteen thousand feet tall and throwing space ships out of the solar system with his bare hands..."
"Batman is reported to have said, 'I'm gonna go beat me up some muggers. Call me when it's over.'"
Believe it or not, two of those were dealt with.
In "First Strike" crossovers, the Dominators locked Swamp Thing's consciousness out of the bio-sphere forcing him to time-jump, leading to a year's worth of Swamp Thing time travel stories.
Also in "First Strike" the Spectre held a summit of all magic users and mystical beings where it was decided that humanity had to face the threat on its own. Only a few standouts defied their decision (Deadman being the prominent one).
Dream doesn't normally involve himself in these kind of things.
Yeah, it occurred to me that Dream isn't a Earth entity but perhaps a universal entity?
Anyway, I'm fine with any given civilization not progressing much in 1000 years, or progressing and falling back, or accidentally putting themselves in stasis, or deciding progress is simply not for them... whatever. The stupidity is unnecessarily bringing in FIVE races from the future and having to explain why all 5 just happened to have a net progress of approximately zero for the same millennium.
I know it's just comics, but you just don't have to push the verisimilitude that far. It does break at some point.
Okay, think I've harped on it enough for this week.
Yeah, it occurred to me that Dream isn't a Earth entity but perhaps a universal entity?
Yup. This was how J'Onn saw Morpheus:
![[Linked Image from somebodydptest.files.wordpress.com]](https://somebodydptest.files.wordpress.com/2023/02/jonndream.jpg)
Heh.
About the only thing I really liked from Invasion! (other than the newspaper they printed up, which I still have somewhere) was the lingering plot seed about Durlan technology left behind being used to explain other metahumans or criminal with weird alien technology for a decade or so.
And the Durlans, already established as xenophobic and averse to developing technology further (after their six-minute war) would have been the one 30th century race I wouldn't have minded being shown in the 20th century, since they already had a backstory of having been technologically stagnant since well before the 20th century.
Gosh. I'd love to see a Dominator plot foiled by Chlorophyll Kid, who uses his powers to make all of their equipment / ships / etc. grow wildly out of control...
Ugh, you mention Durlans in the 20th century and I have flashbacks to Skrulls in Marvel's Secret Invasion and that left a lingering bad taste as it is.
Yeah, that's more how I saw the Endless.
A lot of this was forced re-characterisation after the slate of retcons TMK rolled in. All things 5YL made this a hard sell.
Oooohhh, was that why these characters were so odd? The characterization just seemed so OFF. I figured there had to be some reasoning for it. Though, you'd think since these Legionnaires knew their 5YL counterparts, that the future would technically already be altered by their knowing.
TIME PARADOX.
It turned out that the young SW6 batch Legionnaires weren't actually the adult Legionnaires plucked from the past, but duplicates created by the Timte Trapper.
Which explains why young Garth had his arm restored and young Luornu had all three of her bodies, while the adult Luornu didn't and the adult Garth got his arm back a different way.
Oh, the Dominators didn't create batch SW6? Are they something other than clones?
In the very last issue of that reality, the Time Trapper (who is really Cosmic Boy!!) revealed that he had "split off" the SW6 Legion from the "real" Legionnaires and hidden them underground. He was responsible for restoring Luornu's third body (by plucking her from time earlier) and healing Garth's arm. In essence, they were like magical duplicates of the "real" Legionnaires - each version was as real as the other.
Their time didn't end completely because their being split prevented it. Time only ended after each paur of adult and young Legionnaires merged.
So why were they being called "batch SW6"--and who was calling them that btw?. This sounds like something that one only done once.
Though there have been an awful lot of Legions out there.
I think Batch SW6 was a name given by the Dominators, whod found them where the Time Trapper hid them. Remember, the original intent of the writers was supposedly to have this Legion revealed to be the original Legion, and the adult Legion was a cloned version, or vice versa. The whole Time Trapper explanation was created at the end simply because the original storyline couldn't be written due to Zero Hour happening.
Legionnaires Annual #2 was the first issue I ever bought of the Reboot Legion. Loved it, terrific story, action, and art. That Tinya actually 'died' was impressive back then.
You know, I find it interesting that the invulnerable Andromeda was thought dead and the intangible Apparition really did die. The two Legionnaires you'd think are safest from bodily harm?
Of course, that paved the way for both of them to return. I'm sure that's one reason they were chosen to "die", so their returns would be plausible.
I think Batch SW6 was a name given by the Dominators, whod found them where the Time Trapper hid them. Remember, the original intent of the writers was supposedly to have this Legion revealed to be the original Legion, and the adult Legion was a cloned version, or vice versa. The whole Time Trapper explanation was created at the end simply because the original storyline couldn't be written due to Zero Hour happening.
Still strange that they were called Batch SW6 if they were actually the originals. Unless it were a security measure, but surely this name was only used among the Dominators in the first place?
Oh well. This is probably not a useful line of inquiry.
Well, in real life the writers could have wanted to keep readers guessing as to which batch was the real one. Perhaps even the Dominators didn't want their entire populace to know which was the real one.
You know what just occurred to me?
"Does it matter?"
I mean other than emotionally to fans, and possibly to some characters, it kinda doesn't, unless they eventually use something only clones or Time Duplicates are susceptible to.
Perhaps we should poll all the clones on the Boards.
The answer might surprise you. Many of them actually have a high degree of internalized clonophobia.
Legionnaires Annual #2 was the first issue I ever bought of the Reboot Legion. Loved it, terrific story, action, and art. That Tinya actually 'died' was impressive back then.
Whole-heartedly agree. I remember reading it at an aunt's house when I was a wee lad of 11. Didn't stop searching for a copy of my own until many, many years later (when I think Cobie snagged one for me!) It was such an epic, dramatic story!
I'm still annoyed that my long absence made me miss this battle!
Say, why aren't more people talking about this Legion era? Come on, people!
What did you all think about new characters like Gates, Monstress, Magno or Gear?
We've heard a lot of opinions on XS, and we all know what you think about me
(Proud winner of IB's
Multiverse Legion Idol, huzzah!)
I'd love to post more about this era, but my reading time has been taken up by the Archives.
I will say that I loved most of the reinterpretations of Legion stories and characters in the reboot, particularly how the team's membership expanded under President Chu. The notion that the Legion would be exploited for political purposes was too good an idea to pass up--as was the Legion's eventual victory over Chu.
Some ideas I initially didn't care for turned into wonderful stories which made me rethink what could be done with the Legion. For example, Leviathan as the first leader seemed to be an arbitrary "let's muck with this because we can" choice. But the reasons why Gim was selected--his SP background made him look good on paper--and the Tangleweb story demonstrating his shortcomings as leader (as well as his wisdom in passing the reigns on to Cosmic Boy) was one of the highlights of the reboot.
I enjoyed most of the new characters, including Gates, Monstress, Magno, XS, and Kinetix. They were not merely added to show that this Legion was different from the old one (which they did); each had a unique personality and formed relationships with the established Legionnaires so that the group as a whole transformed into something new and fresh. At the same time, certain classic stories were deeply woven into the Legion's identity and could not be discarded, such as Garth losing his arm and the destruction of Trom. Yet these stories were often changed in ways that made them new and exciting.
Not everything worked in the reboot, however, and the series started to show its age by the time the Team 20/30 story lines were wrapped up. I didn't mind the team being split in two and half the members stranded in the present day--some outstanding stories resulted from their attempts to get back home. But after they did, it seemed the creators didn't know what to do with the series. (Ironically, I jumped on board during this period--with LSH # 109--after having abandoned the series toward the end of the preboot.) While some ideas still seemed fresh, others--such as the brief membership of Thunder--showed the creators were trying to include too many ill-thought out ideas to stay fresh or tie in with other DC Universe properties.
I had mixed feelings about the Blight, though it was clear a change was needed and it was refreshing to see the team struggle for a victory. Legion Lost was a brilliant masterpiece that again challenged our conceptions of who the Legionnaires were and what could be done with them. Unfortunately, DnA did not know what to do with the Legion once they were back in a regular series, and most of that run, to me, is best forgotten.
Overall, I liked the first reboot and was dismayed when DC chose to reboot the Legion yet again in 2004. That's where I pretty much stopped following the Legion and other comics on a regular basis. The Legion's universe is, I think, meant to grow, become complex, and even get messy. Starting over was a novel idea once; doing it again is just lazy writing and publishing in my opinion.
Wow. That's a well-written and concise review of the entire era, HWW. And I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything you said.
I highlight the first two or so years of the era as a masterpiece, showing how old elements (Trom, Garth's lost arm, M'Onel's time in the Phantom Zone, Durlan xenophobia, UP politices) mixed in so well with new (new characters, Tinya's overbearing mom, Andromeda's xenophobia) and meshed into a wonderful take on the Legion that was exciting, refreshing and thought-provoking.
Thanks for the compliment, Ibby.
Some stories and characters were just hands-down better in the reboot. You mentioned Tinya's mom. In the preboot, we got to see the parents of the Legionnaires only occasionally, but you can bet some would have serious issues about their children joining a super-hero club. Winema was a peach.
Although the xenophobia thing was overdone, it was radical and risky to make Andromeda a racist. It gave her a definite flawed place to start as a character and created an interesting dynamic with Brainy, with whom she was supposed to fall in love (since she was an analogue for Supergirl). Tying her prejudices to the xenophobia of Daxam and the White Triangle story was also an example of brilliant writing that never would have been attempted in the preboot.
As was the "sibling rivalry" between Live Wire and Spark, or Brainiac 5's extreme disinterest in the team, or Kinetix's power lust. Gone were the days where all Legionnaires had cookie-cutter motivations. The Postboot was good (at least in the early days) for digging deeper into each Legionnaire's character.
couldn't agree more IB!
the early years really were great for characterization.
I've said it before and I'll probably go on saying it... The Reboot Legion was:
A) My favorite
B) The best
C) After the cancellation of the current iteration, the Reboot Legion will still be the one that I miss the most.
D) Bring back Andromeda!!!!
Amen to A, C and D! Saying Amen to B is just asking for heated (but polite and well-thought out) debate though
All Legions had their ups and downs, but personally I find it hard to pick the best. That judgment is heavily colored by my personal preference for the Postboot team
Amen to A, C and D! Saying Amen to B is just asking for heated (but polite and well-thought out) debate though
All Legions had their ups and downs, but personally I find it hard to pick the best. That judgment is heavily colored by my personal preference for the Postboot team
Fair enough.
Consider, however, a certain degree of irony...
If you look at all of the DCnU reboots, Teen Titans and Justice League as prime examples, DC essentially started from scratch with younger versions of standard characters (I think that Superman had at least a decade of age knocked off of him) and/or the same youthful characters with essentially "modified" versions of their prior continuity.
Now look at the reboot Legion again... surprisingly, it fits better with what DC has tried to do with the DCnU that the current iteration does (IMHO).
The camaraderie and optimism of youth has definitely been a major seling point of the Legion since its inception, and the Adventure Wra also had quite a bit of it. The Threeboot... well, they were young but that's pretty much it
Since the Legion has had more boots than the rest of the DCU, it's no surprise that it's a couple of boots ahead.
Does that mean you like the DCnU also?
As much as I disliked "The Legion" to the point of almost dropping it several times, I was disappointed to see it end, mostly because I thought as a whole the property could have been salvaged quite easily. None of the problems brought in by DnA couldn't have been resolved or turned around with a new writer and some imagination (that Keith Champagne issue before the end was great). It was still never "my" Legion, but I grew quite fond of it.
Since the Legion has had more boots than the rest of the DCU, it's no surprise that it's a couple of boots ahead.
Does that mean you like the DCnU also?
Overall?
I could take it or leave it. With the exception of only a couple of titles (I like Earth-2 and Green lantern was relatively unchanged by "Flashpoint"), I don't really see that any of the changes have tipped the scale one way or the other. In fact, with the scrambled salad of continuity, it probably made things (initially, at least) worse than before.
The worst thing about reboots is that they throw everything that happened before under the rug. It's hard to get emotionally attached to the characters if you know they can be erased after the next big event...
I think we should have a "Conjure Lass reads Justice League 3000" thread.
What has Conjure lass ever done to you to deserve that!
lol
ah but ... the Justice League 3000 has done a lot to deserve that!
>)
I can't even type Justice League 3000 without feeling a bit silly.
I'm surprised they didn't call it Justice League Interstellar, given the creative team.
This is just adding insult to injury.
They had hundreds of other centuries to write about, seems less than creative to muddy up the Legion's.
I demand more posts from Conjure Lass about her adventures reading the Reboot!!
You got it IB! I've been so busy with school I've hardly had time to do anything but read philosophy books! XD!!
OH, AND I AM TOTALLY DOING A "CONJURE READS JUSTICE LEAGUE 3000" THREAD. TOTALLY.
Yay!!! I can't wait for more insightful reviews from you. Discussing the Postboot Legion is always a pleasure, and I didn't want to start a new thread since you've got this great one going on.
OH, AND I AM TOTALLY DOING A "CONJURE READS JUSTICE LEAGUE 3000" THREAD. TOTALLY.
Well, someone's gotta do it!
Exactly. I mean, there's absolutely no reason i'm going to read it other than to MST3K the shit out of it. I will be surprised if I like it. But it'll be a laugh to read, anyway.
It'll also be fun (in a masochistic sort of way) to imagine how the Legion would trounce those silly JLA3000 members at their own game. (Hah! if Brainy and Lyle had been on that mission they'd have figured it out already! Shame, Batman3000!)
