Legion World
Posted By: Querl Dox Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/12/13 09:52 PM
Here is a preview for the next issue, that picks-up right from #21's ending : http://www.comicosity.com/exclusive-preview-legion-of-super-heroes-22/

Hmm...no hints in these pages about the mysterious number 5...
Posted By: Power Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/12/13 11:19 PM
Thanks Dox.


not much really in that preview ...
Posted By: Power Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/12/13 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller
Hmm...no hints in these pages about the mysterious number 5...


heh. at this point they don't really seem to need a 5th member.

the Fatal Four is doing pretty well!
Quote
heh. at this point they don't really seem to need a 5th member.

the Fatal Four is doing pretty well!


Yes, but there's definitely someone else pulling the strings. Someone smuggled the "Tharok chip" from where it was held in order to re-activate him and assemble the Fatal Five. Something else else's missing from the story if that individual is not revealed. (Apart from the fact that they're constantly referred to as the Fatal Five, though we've only seen four members.)
Posted By: Leather Wolf Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/13/13 03:52 AM
Is it me or does Duplicate Damsel look a lot less seriously injured this issue than she did two issues ago? Perhaps all those who moaned over her death did so a bit premature.
Posted By: Set Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/13/13 05:32 AM
Originally Posted by Leather Wolf
Is it me or does Duplicate Damsel look a lot less seriously injured this issue than she did two issues ago? Perhaps all those who moaned over her death did so a bit premature.


So far, nobody but Sun Boy seems to have been shown to be dead, by comic book standards (i.e. we saw a body).

Indeed, given how over the top the confirmations of Sun Boy's death were, I'm not sure the writers want us to believe that anybody else is anything other than unconscious or missing in action.

Sun Boy got multiple issues worth of confirmation of death, and Mon-El got pretty much half an issue devoted to merely being hurt real bad. I seriously doubt that Star Boy or Duplicate Damsel or anybody else is going to be actually killed off-panel or in a single blink-and-you-missed-it scene, given how in-your-face and confirmed-after-the-fact-multiple-times the actual death of Sun Boy was.

On the other hand, while we saw Star Boy's possible 'death' on panel, both Star Boy and Duplicate Damsel were already lying there when we first saw them. In a future setting with alternate universe dopplegangers, shapeshifting imposters, clones, android duplicates and illusions so real that people monitoring a dude in a cell can feel the earth shaking from him hitting the walls, despite him not actually being present, it's *entirely* possible that someone could whisk away a Legionnaire and leave a fake body behind, so that their teammates (and the readers) believe that the character is dead, when they are off in a lab somewhere having their powers resequenced (and / or their brains washed) so that the mastermind villain can field an army of minions with self-duplication, gravity control and / or the heat and light of a star...

Hopefully it was premature. It's also a good sign that she's lying in the middle of the other Legionnaires.

Things look good for Garth, but not for Imra...
Originally Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller
Hmm...no hints in these pages about the mysterious number 5...


Remember LSH #0, when the Legionnaires went to Colu? The original Brainiac was locked up there, Tharok broke in to steal some stuff, the Legionnaires rescued a baby Coluan girl,...

and Brainiac 5 (5!) broke into a vault, then buried the memory deep so Saturn Girl wouldn't discover it.
Posted By: Fat Cramer Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/13/13 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Legion Tracker

and Brainiac 5 (5!) broke into a vault, then buried the memory deep so Saturn Girl wouldn't discover it.


Uh oh...

Great idea! but if Brainy's the traitor/5th Fatal member, it's going to leave an incredibly bad taste in my mouth.
Posted By: Blockade Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/13/13 12:07 PM
Brainy's been the bad before so I suppose it wouldn't be so far fetched I'd object from characterization POV but from story POV it doesn't seem interesting.

Everyone posting "we haven't seen the fifth" keeps leaving an obvious person (or two) not mentioned as possibility doesn't it?
Posted By: Spellbinder Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/14/13 03:33 AM
Haven't the Persauder and Lightning Lad met before? The whole "has anyone told you about my ax" thing was weird.

They are really going to have to wrap things up fast. There's only one more issue after this one, right?
Posted By: Set Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/14/13 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by Spellbinder
Haven't the Persauder and Lightning Lad met before? The whole "has anyone told you about my ax" thing was weird.


That felt like Silver Age exposition to me, where the heroes and villains explain their powers the first time they use them in every issue, for anyone who has just picked this up as their first issue.

Given that it's near the last issue of the run, it felt particularly out of place...

Quote
and Brainiac 5 (5!) broke into a vault, then buried the memory deep so Saturn Girl wouldn't discover it.


Brainy was responsible for the vault being open/accessible, but not directly, intentionally responsible for Tharok's theft/cyberneticism/Fatal Five attack now.
hmmmm,my first Legion story was the Sun Eater classic and I was totally blown away...the 2nd FF story introducing Shady was in classic story telling...Cockrum and Grell threw in one or 2 nice stories in their time...and the Jeckie/Empress storyline was just sheer genius to all concerned....but this new fatal five... i am sorry its just awful...i do not care who the 5th member is...and do not get me started on the new Empress...bloody awful.
Posted By: Leather Wolf Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/17/13 12:30 PM
Well that's it... The end of the Fatal Five story. I'm not sure what to think after this first read other than it appears that Levitz learned of the Legion's cancellation after he started plotting this story. Some plot threads that he was developing simply didn't pan out. We have one confirmd new dead legionnaire and a surprise return of another. In the end, some legionnaires showed their awesome abilities, and some brought a sudden closure that was way too abrupt.

I think I would have enjoyed this issue more if Portela had drawn it instead of Johnson. Art left me wanting as much as story did, and story might have been better had Levitz been given a better artist.

I guess after all of this build up, the Legion defeated the Fatal Five too easily. Yet, the set up for next issue wets my appetite to want more. So, 30 days to wait for the END. At long last my Legion collection will be completed!
Posted By: stuorstew Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/17/13 12:53 PM
That was quite a fun issue.

I agree with Leather Wolf the Five were defeated a little too easily in the end but it wasn't too bad.

There were some completely unexpected returns that should make the next issue interesting explaining what they were up to and how their powers work the way they do here.

A few months ago the cancellation was a mercy killing and whilst disappointing you could understand it; but after the last few issues I am going to miss this series.
Can you spoiler the fifth member for me? I'm not going to be able to see the issue until the end of August.
Posted By: jdpinball Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/17/13 08:55 PM
WOW! That was just...bad! This arc obviously got changed A LOT after it was first planned but....

Justin Tyme couldn't have written a worse ending.

Sad that the man who took the Legion to the top of the sales charts is also going to be known as the one who killed the Legion for at least the next 5 years
Posted By: Leather Wolf Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/17/13 10:59 PM
The most disappointing thing was that Levitz didn't have the ghosts of Ferro Lad, Earth-Man and Invisible Kid help take down the Fatal Five. That seemed to be where he was going with things. I'm not sure why he changed gears to have Sensor Girl and Karate Kid come in to save the day unless it was a quick way to wrap things up without dangling plot threads. It would have been fun to watch the Fatal Five trying to kill the dead!

Kudos to Polar Boy for getting his take down!!
Posted By: Longevity Lad Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 04:46 AM
Horrible issue. Cancellation is welcome.
Posted By: BridYYC Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 06:02 AM
Have to agree. This wasn't good. The revelation of the 5th member of the fatal five was really bad. There were some big moments...sorry, I take that back. There were things that *should have been* big moments that were handled with so little fanfare that they became "so what" moments - like the aforementioned return of a character.

Perfect example of what was wrong with this issue and perhaps the series was Saturn Girl taking down the Emerald Empress. Compare this take down to the Baxter series Universo Project (32-35) and you get 2 very different experiences of Imra using her powers.

Posted By: Sarcasm Kid Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 06:46 AM
Guys despite everything, I'm just really happy Garth and Imra made it through. Because out of everything I've been worrying about, fearing that one of them was going to die, or that their kids might've died, wasn't helping at all.

This issue was a relief for me. Though I still wish we weren't getting Justice League 3000 in place of the Legion.
Posted By: Fat Cramer Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller
Can you spoiler the fifth member for me? I'm not going to be able to see the issue until the end of August.


The Promethean Giant is the fifth member.


I have to wonder if the fifth member was a last minute fill-in to hasten completion of the story, or if that was intended all along.

Agree with the others above who say it wrapped up too easily, although Levitz didn't really have much room to maneuver at this point.

At least it wasn't a Legion bloodbath.
Posted By: Leather Wolf Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 02:09 PM
I would say that the fifth member of the Fatal Five was indeed a last minute fill-in, and if it wasn't, it's intended purpose was to provide some awesome destruction before being stopped.

Many plot threads just didn't happen because of the cancellation. Remember, according to both Levitz and Giffen, this arc was to be an in story reboot of the Legion, mandated by DC I'm sure to give the title new life and a different direction. In mid-stream the series got cancelled, Giffen left, they were supposed to put Portela back on the title, then it appears that he too was yanked. Levitz was left with sub par artists. Many of the things groaned about above would have been perceived differently under Portela's masterful pencils. This whole arc would have ended with a clear different feel had the in story reboot unfolded as planned. In the end, I think Levitz simply decided to return the Legion to status quo. Yes there are dead legionnaires, and their world will look different, but Levitz will not reboot the Legion to drastically as the series ends.

Like I've said before, now is the time to put criticisms aside and just enjoy the ride, because these may be our last moments with the Legion for a very long time.
Posted By: Conjure Lass Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Fat Cramer


The Promethean Giant is the fifth member.




Whut.
Posted By: Power Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 03:35 PM
are they joking?


shock/displeasure
[Linked Image]

Posted By: Power Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 03:38 PM
Also, I feel like I have to come clean ... Since so many people seem to love his art ...

I don't like Portela's art ... I think it is too many splash pages or two to three panel pages ... the anatomy is wonky ... and the hair all looks like dreadlocks.

There, I said it.
Too many points without clarifying, that I do not believe that they reveal in the near issue...
Who is this Emerald Empress?
A revived Sarya or another anonymous psychopath?
Where was Bouncing Boy when The Persuador murder one of the bodies of his wife. Taking care of the comatose body of Comet Queen?
And for that he stupidly asked her like was she feeling on having lost a duplicate, when already he knew that Lu had lost two previously?
Neither we have had Night Girl's news in all this saga.
For what reason Cosmic Boy and Shadow Lass remained in the ship, when they had big possibilities of conquering The Persuador and and The Emerald Empress?
Shriking Violet conquered the Empress in the annual here she was totally useless.
And they forgot of the end of this history, where a green light was shining in Salu's body
Still we know neither Star Boy's final destination, nor that has happened with Dragonwing.
Will Phantom Girl return from her dimension?
There are possibilities that Sun Boy is revived, if that this body was realy of him?
There will return 7 legionnaries lost in the time?
The good only thing has been the return of Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad, Sensor Girl and the new one and unknow Karate Kid...
And finally they don't kill Duplicate Damsel.
Already we will see if we obtain some answers in the final issue...
Re: the Spoiler. I haven't read the issue, but I can't imagine how it makes any sense overall.
Posted By: Conjure Lass Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Power Boy


There, I said it.


Do you feel better now?
Posted By: Power Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 04:10 PM
I feel a great relief.
Posted By: jdpinball Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 06:55 PM
And what has been ignored with all the mess of this current issue is that it would appear that Saturn Girl killed or helped kill two of the Fatal Five?

This issue was a great example of why this series is getting cancelled... the writing has just been HORRIBLE!! The EE blast the shit out of Mon-el...almost kills him and then blasts the other Legionaires and they're just a bit hurt??... .And what was the whole bit about having secret weapons stored near the headquarters so the EE and Thoark had to retreat to the big giant guy? Who happens to be the 5th member

Hopefully things are wrapped up in a nice package next issue and then the looooong wait for a new Legion series begins
Posted By: Leather Wolf Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 07:52 PM
I won't be waiting for another Legion series. Once next issue is out, I'm done. If a new Legion series comes out and I happen to hear about it, maybe I'll stop and pick it up. Otherwise I consider next issue the last new issue of the Legion ever and my collection completed.

I'm not real happy about this current issue, but there's no use getting too upset anymore. Levitz's writing is wanting. The current 3rd rate artists are horrible. (Did you see Lightning Lad? Worst likeness of him in years!). And DC editorial killed the series when they cancelled the series instead of giving the in story reboot a chance. They are all to blame for the series' demise. I'm happy that if the series has to end, at least Levitz gets a chance to bookend it.
Posted By: Georgehaze Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 09:54 PM
I never thought that the day would come when "Long Live the Legion" would be supplanted by "R.I.P., Legion".

I don't know about the Fatal Five but, as far as I'm concerned, the Legion's "Fatal Three" have been Didio, Giffen and Levitz.
Posted By: Power Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 10:11 PM
I flipped through this at the comic store and couldn't really make sense of it ...

Lightning Lad and Ayla beat Persuader easily after the last several issues of being outmatched ... same with Saturn Girl and Empress ... Polar Boy beats Tharok pretty easily ... Projectra beats the frickin Promethan stone guy ... without even really explaining what was going on ... and Val is alive?


whoah just whoah ... it's like a child got bored with playing with the legion of super heroes and wrapped it up really quickly ... "the end" ...
Posted By: Power Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 10:13 PM
This is enough to unmake me a fan of giffen and levitz ... well past their sell by date ... whatever the excuse ...
Posted By: Conjure Lass Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by Power Boy


Lightning Lad and Ayla beat Persuader easily after the last several issues of being outmatched ... same with Saturn Girl and Empress ... Polar Boy beats Tharok pretty easily ... Projectra beats the frickin Promethan stone guy ... without even really explaining what was going on ... and Val is alive?




Whut.
Posted By: Power Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 10:46 PM
yeah.
Posted By: Power Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 10:48 PM
it is almost funny.
Posted By: Leather Wolf Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/18/13 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by Georgehaze
I never thought that the day would come when "Long Live the Legion" would be supplanted by "R.I.P., Legion".

I don't know about the Fatal Five but, as far as I'm concerned, the Legion's "Fatal Three" have been Didio, Giffen and Levitz.


You want two more names to make it a "Fatal Five"? Add in the horrible art of Scott Kollins and Jeff Johnson. If the writing didn't kill the series, their aweful art sure did! At least Portela's #20 was beautiful, and the story seemed so much better too under his pencils. I wonder how these last few issues might have received by fans if his art had helped tell the story.
Originally Posted by Conjure Lass
Originally Posted by Power Boy


Lightning Lad and Ayla beat Persuader easily after the last several issues of being outmatched ... same with Saturn Girl and Empress ... Polar Boy beats Tharok pretty easily ... Projectra beats the frickin Promethan stone guy ... without even really explaining what was going on ... and Val is alive?




Whut.


16,OOO Legion fans like this comment.
Originally Posted by Leather Wolf
Originally Posted by Georgehaze
I never thought that the day would come when "Long Live the Legion" would be supplanted by "R.I.P., Legion".

I don't know about the Fatal Five but, as far as I'm concerned, the Legion's "Fatal Three" have been Didio, Giffen and Levitz.


You want two more names to make it a "Fatal Five"? Add in the horrible art of Scott Kollins and Jeff Johnson. If the writing didn't kill the series, their aweful art sure did! At least Portela's #20 was beautiful, and the story seemed so much better too under his pencils. I wonder how these last few issues might have received by fans if his art had helped tell the story.


I was actually surprised to see that the art had been done by Scott Kollins. He used to do a pretty good job on the Postboot Legion. Maybe the inker was a bad match for him.

Yeah, it was nice to see some long-lost Legionnaires, but Shady, Cos and Chemical Kid just sit in the ship while all hell breaks loose. Poor use of tension and pacing and characters.

Nice to see Imra kicking butt and Luornu not really being dead, at least.

Oh, and Tinya's whole run as leader didn't even have her doing anything like leading!!

Since when is
Karate Kid's
real name unknown?

And Tharok is taken down partly by his arrogance. Tsk. Shame on you, Imra and Brek have more knowledge of science than you do.

Agree with everyhone who said that it looks like this story was building up to something that Levitz wasn't able to write anymore.
The only somewhat skilled story telling in this arc was the very real dread that there was a Legionnaire slaughter going on when in fact there seems to be one pretty much confirmed fatality - Sun Boy
Posted By: Leather Wolf Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/19/13 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by The Man From Cargg
The only somewhat skilled story telling in this arc was the very real dread that there was a Legionnaire slaughter going on when in fact there seems to be one pretty much confirmed fatality - Sun Boy


Two confirmed bodies: Sun Boy and one of Duplicate Damsel's duplicates. I'd think she would argue that the death of one of her bodies was a true death.
Originally Posted by Leather Wolf
Originally Posted by The Man From Cargg
The only somewhat skilled story telling in this arc was the very real dread that there was a Legionnaire slaughter going on when in fact there seems to be one pretty much confirmed fatality - Sun Boy


Two confirmed bodies: Sun Boy and one of Duplicate Damsel's duplicates. I'd think she would argue that the death of one of her bodies was a true death.


Agreed. I guess with her new multiple multiples power the loss doesn't seem as upsetting. She has become the perfect cannon fodder for lazy writing.
Posted By: jdpinball Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/20/13 01:33 AM
You know you really can't say that DC didn't try with the Legion the last few years. I mean not long ago we had four Legion related titles (LSH, Legion Lost, Legion Secret Origin and Legion/Star Trek) and they did the Legion Ring give-a-way that everyone had wanted for years.

Unfortunately, the execution was just not done well. The whole concept of sending Legion (Lost) back to the 20/21st century NEVER works well. Both the Secret Origin and LHS series by Paul just slogged along and had moments of magic but for the most part was boring and never really grabbed you. I mean if hardcore Legion fans are bored how on earth are you going to attract new readers.

Maybe a digital only series is the answer sometime in the future
Posted By: Set Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/20/13 06:50 AM
My thoughts, spoilers abound!


Like!
Lightning Lass saving Lightning Lad from the Persuader. Go Ayla!

Imra nearly wiping out the Persuader, and then giving the Empress the stare-of-doom.

Projectra's newer Sensor Girl powers being used to open someone's eyes / grant them perception of the truth, instead of tricking or deceiving someone with an illusion. A nice way to highlight that she is a very different sort of character with these sensory powers, than the old Projectra.

Saturn Girl, reminding us that she's also one of the smartest Legionnaires, telling Polar Boy how to defeat Tharok.

Don't like!

The cover. I vaguely recall eating crow the last time I suggested that 'J.J. Kirby' was a Justin Thyme pseudonym for 'this sucks and I don't want my name associated with it,' so I'll concede to whoever bit my head off the last time that J.J. Kirby is apparently a real person, but, still. Yuk.

Not a huge fan of Jeff Johnson's art, either. There are snippets I like. On the first page, Cham is in a sort of awkward almost boneless posture, which seems kind of fitting for an unconscious shapeshifter.

Lightning can block the Atomic Axe? Electricity can't even block a *normal* axe! Seriously dude, you straight-up Atomic Suck.

Still not loving the Empress surfing on the Eye. Ugh.

Karate Kid is back? And does nothing? How.... utterly... pointless.

Oh look, Invisible Jacques is also back. Luckily he brought Polar Boy with him, so it's not a complete waste of time.

Random thoughts;

Luornu seems to be affected by the death of a duplicate here, which seems to mean that she didn't actually lose dozens of duplicates against the Daxamite-powered super-Dominator (as the cover and issue in which that fight occurred suggested).

Something else else something Phantom Girl? Does she have Kitty Pryde's ability to disrupt machinery now, and was that what Tharok was worried about (despite his energy body not technically being 'machinery?'). Whatever. Timber Wolf has claws, Tinya disrupts machinery, Imra can develop telekinesis and dye her hair red, Ferro Lad can return from the dead and begin speaking in Russian, Gates can begin carrying a cutlass around and calling people 'fraulien' and 'liebchen.' I don't even care anymore.

On page 1, is that a grapefruit in your pants Garth, or are you just happy to see me?


Luornu does state that it seems as though a piece of her soul is missing, which is somewhat different from other characters with similar powers like Multiplex or Jamie Madrox who routinely use their other bodies as cannon fodder. This is a somewhat disturbing development; the more duplicates the easier a target she becomes. uhoh!

The scenes with Tinya early on are proving to be a waste of time, unless something big happens next issue. This is extremely insulting to her - she didn't even do anything leaderly. Sigh, what a wasted opportunity.

Dragonwing and Comet Queen are still playting hide and seek, and we get no mention of Star Boy's fate either. I'm still holding out hope he's alive somewhere in the wreckage (go find him already Imra!)
Posted By: Set Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/24/13 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
Luornu does state that it seems as though a piece of her soul is missing, which is somewhat different from other characters with similar powers like Multiplex or Jamie Madrox who routinely use their other bodies as cannon fodder. This is a somewhat disturbing development; the more duplicates the easier a target she becomes. uhoh!


It could foreshadow a 'dark Lu' sort of storyline, in which the more of her duplicates end up getting killed, the more desensitized to it she becomes (as if she's 'losing more pieces of her soul'), until she becomes a grim sort of figure, who willingly sends dupes to their deaths, because she has become numb to all the death.

It wouldn't have to be anything supernatural, it could be entirely psychological (since Carggites are meant to feel terrible loss when they lose a 'self', it would affect Lu even if they were just empty quantum duplicates, and losing one was no more spiritually significant than clipping your fingernails).

Some sort of telepathic therapy might be required to pull her back from this state, but perhaps not before one or several of her duplicates run away, and perhaps one even goes *really* dark and joins the LSV, convinced that Lu is 'trying to kill her' or even that *she* is the 'real' Luornu, and that the Legion and Chuck have betrayed her and are trying to hunt her down so that the 'fake Lu' can devour her! (And retaining the ability to create a bunch of quantum duplicates herself, unlike other duplicates, leading to some questions as to whether or not she *is* the 'real Luornu,' or has become a real person, so that if Luornu did attempt to reabsorb her, it would be murder!)

There's a lot of story potential to this throwaway 'power up' that Geoff tossed Lu's way.

Quote
The scenes with Tinya early on are proving to be a waste of time, unless something big happens next issue. This is extremely insulting to her - she didn't even do anything leaderly. Sigh, what a wasted opportunity.


Yeah. The whole Tinya breaking down and whining about people getting killed reflecting badly on her as leader (gosh, sucked even more of Sun Boy, one would think...) and then phasing away to Bgtzl has been atrocious, and even if there was some lame last minute attempt to salvage it planned, I don't think it's going to happen now (and, hopefully, it wasn't some asspull about her disrupting Tharok's energy form, since that's A) Kitty Pryde's power, B) Tharok is energy, not a machine and C) that would be murder).

That's a very interesting direction to take Lu. Brrr. I wonder if Chuck would be able to tell who "Lu Prime" is when faced with a whole bunch of Lus...

Postboot Tinya could disrupt machinery, but I agree. We've seen energy blasts pass through Tinya harmlessly before, so her disrupting energy now would be shake

And we have a still-injured Mon-El to boot, and still no idea whatever happened to Quislet.
Posted By: Set Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/24/13 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
That's a very interesting direction to take Lu. Brrr. I wonder if Chuck would be able to tell who "Lu Prime" is when faced with a whole bunch of Lus...


Ooh, that's extra creepy! Crazyevil Lu deciding to kill Chuck because he 'can't tell she's the real Lu!'

The rest of the LSV gently enabling her notion that she's the 'real Lu,' because they don't really care how cray-cray she is, only that she's a great teammate, since she can whip up a mob of expendable minions with a snap of her fingers.

I could see the LSV actively encouraging it, so they'll have an assassin who can take down Legionnaires one by one.

Whoa!
Posted By: jimgallagher Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/25/13 01:51 AM
Ugh. That's it, I'm done. No more reboots, threeboots, retroboots, multiverses, or new 52s for me. I'm done with Legion and probably DC forever. I have hundreds of old Legion stories to reread for the rest of my life. This won't be one of them. Make mine Marvel from now on.
Posted By: imskian78 Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/26/13 08:56 PM
I agree with Jim...I am done with DC..comics in general. I guess it has been a long time coming but maybe ,with age, one has limited patience for crap. I blame Didio...but mostly Levitz who I feel just went thru the motions and will probably retire soon. I have hundreds of Legion stories to re read and that will have to do...no one at DC has any imagination it seems or creativity or fore thought is anything. It's not just our be-loved Legion but the entire 52...what a mess! I want to keep up with everyone here...the true LEGION!
Posted By: Blockade Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/26/13 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by imskian78
I agree with Jim...I am done with DC..comics in general. I guess it has been a long time coming but maybe ,with age, one has limited patience for crap. I blame Didio...but mostly Levitz who I feel just went thru the motions and will probably retire soon. I have hundreds of Legion stories to re read and that will have to do...no one at DC has any imagination it seems or creativity or fore thought is anything. It's not just our be-loved Legion but the entire 52...what a mess! I want to keep up with everyone here...the true LEGION!
I'm repeating myself and not doubt many others but I don't see how ANY writer can be good in this loosely coordinated, after the fact editing, "universe" environment of writing. Those few writers that are driving the universe, Morrison, Johns, have the easy job. Those that have to fit into it? Wouldn't want to be them. Star Wars, for example, works because there are relatively few writers compared to the DC Universe. The stories are easier, probably MUCH easier to direct from the big picture than the 52 books comprising the DC Universe.

Given the right autonomy, there are a lot more Willingham's out there and I have to believe Levitz would be one of them.


Solution:


Legion ---> Image
Posted By: Lard Lad Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/26/13 11:52 PM
^Blockade Boy: Levitz Apologist tease

smile
Posted By: Blockade Boy Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/26/13 11:55 PM
smile
Posted By: Set Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/27/13 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by Blockade Boy
I'm repeating myself and not doubt many others but I don't see how ANY writer can be good in this loosely coordinated, after the fact editing, "universe" environment of writing. Those few writers that are driving the universe, Morrison, Johns, have the easy job. Those that have to fit into it? Wouldn't want to be them.


It does seem that they are shedding writers (and titles) left and right since the new DCU business.

I think Paul could have done (and has done, in the past) better with this run. I also see many little flashes of genius that I wish had been better realized (and have no idea how much was interference from on high, or burnout from realizing that his best ideas were being shot down).

I do feel a bit let down by Levitz's work here, because I wanted so much more from this run, and yet I don't think that it would be fair to put all of the onus on him, since so many other DC titles have been going haywire.

My only sobering moment is realizing that the last of the classic writers at DC who, IMO, 'get' what the Legion is all about, seem to be on their way out, and that worries me, that the best we can hope for in a Legion relaunch from those that remain at DC is the sort of soulless 'people posing and lecturing to the fans' crap that's been going on in the various Johns-written Justice League / Aquaman / etc. titles.

Posted By: jimgallagher Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/27/13 02:52 AM
I think Levitz has been coasting on his reputation for way too long. GDS was THIRTY years ago, people! What's he done for me lately?
I agree with BB and Set though; Levitz wasn't at his best but a lot of the blame should be laid on the feet of DC. Their environment simply wasn't nurturing.
Posted By: Blacula Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/27/13 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by jimgallagher
I think Levitz has been coasting on his reputation for way too long. GDS was THIRTY years ago, people! What's he done for me lately?


I COMPLETELY AGREE!

I may be biased because I think the quality of Levitz' contribution to the Legion, even during his hey-day, is vastly over-rated anyway... but could anyone here honestly describe anything he's written in the last decade or so as anything better than 'passable'?

A better description IMO would be abjectly awful.

Here is a selection of what he's written since 2000:

* That Legion 'Bedtime Stories' story in Legends of the DCU - so disappointing and a completely wasted opportunity.
* A Superman story in that Julius Schwartz DC Comics Presents thing - do not waste your time!
* That Gentleman Ghost story that finished off the JSA series - SO boring that a completist like me couldn't even bring myself to buy the last issue of it, even when it was drawn by one of my favourite artists ever.
* Adventure Comics - one of the worst run of Legion stories I've ever read (and I've read some of the Threeboot) and an extra disappointment for for failing to say or do anything interesting with the never not-interesting Adventure-era Legion (unless people consider giving Brande an annoying speech impediment 'interesting'? Ugh!)
* And, of course, his two runs on the main Legion book which I doubt produced a single story that would be in anyone here's Top 20, 30, 40 or even 50 Legion stories.

I don't mean for this post to come across like a personal attack on Paul Levitz because I'm sure he's a nice guy and I think he was an excellent editor in every way but choosing his successor, but IMO one of the main reasons this book has failed as miserably as it has in recent years is because it has been beholden to him and his legacy for far too long!
Posted By: jimgallagher Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 07/27/13 06:51 AM
Thank you, Blacula!
Posted By: Harbinger Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 08/02/13 11:49 PM
Sorry to say that if this issue is anything to go by then the series is going out with a whimper not a bang. It hurts to say this as I have tried to be positive and look for the good in this whole run but think this was possibly the worst comic I have ever spent money on.

I'm not sure who or what is responsible - bad editors (most likely), poor rushed art (probably), battered down writers forced to accommodate ideas from external sources that don't fit within the series own internal logic and structure (sad but an option) - a mixture of these and more possible - whoever is responsible really needs to retire from comics for good.

It's been a painful and slow death this time around and it's heartbreaking to see a tremendous franchise like this being eroded and dismissed in such a callous manner.

To say I was underwhelmed is to say the passengers on the Titanic got a little wet.

Posted By: Set Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 08/03/13 01:21 AM
There were flashes of genius in Levitz's more recent work, and yet I'm beginning to agree with others who have said that he needs a co-creator to be at his best. (That said, I'd still rather gnaw my own arm off than that co-creator have been Giffen...)

Geoff and / or Robinson threw a bunch of Legionnaires at us in the last few years, but they added almost nothing *new* to the franchise (Night Girl and Chameleon Girl and, maybe, Infectious Lass were described as Legionnaires, but none of those where exactly new characters). Paul at least made an attempt to build on the Legion setting, with characters like Sun-Killer, Akka, Questor, Alchemical Girl, Gravity Kid, Variable Lad, Dragonwing, Harmonia Li, Chemical Kid, etc.

Not every one of those characters was exactly my favorite (but, to be honest, not every one of the *classic* Legionnaires is my favorite...), but he made a conscious effort to diversify the team (more women, more *powerful* women, more ethnic characters).

And yeah, there was a lot that was uneven. We had Saturn Girl using 'telepathy' to break windows and stop falling pillars. Characters who were orphans claimed not to be, and characters with living parents claimed to be orphans. R.J. Brande developed a weird speech pattern. Timber Wolf, who has super-strength, super-speed and no claws, regeneration or invulnerability, decided to pretend he was Wolverine and claw away ineffectually at a dude who can immolate a human beaing with a touch, instead of using his actual super-power of 'super-acrobatics' to avoid getting burned and chucking something at him. Given a chance to imprison a giant robot in a block of inerton, or turn it's armor plating into water, Element Lad chooses to create an explosion that doesn't hurt it at all, but nearly kills himself. Gim, one of the more experienced combatants on the team, takes it in the face like a pro, so much that even he recognizes how much he sucks and quits the team. The team that totally bamboozled the Murran spies spends pretty much every panel of the last two years utterly reactionary, allowing the bad-guys to totally dominate every encounter, to the point where it's hard to even feel bad for them, since they don't seem to even be trying.

There's been a hell of a lot to criticize, which makes the good ideas I've seen all the more painful, because I wish the execution had been so much better.

False starts like the necessity of forcing Earth-Man onto the team, only to give up on that idea and kill him off anyway, just means that was a year or so of useless farting around. People who liked Earth-Man and wanted that plot point and character to be explored got screwed. People who didn't like Earth-Man also got screwed every time he appeared on panel and took time away from the actual Legionnaires they bought the title to read about. In the end, everybody lost on that one.

Eh. We'll always have back issues. And fanfic. smile

Posted By: Harbinger Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 08/03/13 01:38 AM
Portela's art and the New legionnaies were great but the fatal five storyline was shockingly poor imo and the issues with chem kid and element lad were a wasted opportunity. Back issues and fanfics indeed, sadly i dont think we'll see another series for a few years now.
Posted By: Kid Quislet Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 08/03/13 09:39 PM
One positive note - I really enjoyed the colors in the issue. They were technicolor brilliant. A good example was the last page, which stood out with the brightly-colored various Legionnaires against the background of Metropolis carnage. I like my Legion comics with lots of colors. Nicely done, colorist!

One negative note - Invisible Kid and Polar Boy needed some serious hair styling; Jacques head looked like a smores cookout and Polar Boy's grand finale against Tharok was dampened by the huge artichoke head wear.
Posted By: Chemical King Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 08/04/13 01:41 AM
Now that I finally get to read this issue, I really felt that it was a good example why the third Levitz run did not work.

1. Artwork. I've said it and I'll say it again, inconsistent mediocre artwork hardly ever helps a book to become a big seller. The cover! The cover! Who would be lured into buying this newest issue by seeing this cover? The interior art is hardly much better, I just read the short Jiminez Run on Adventure (just came out in German) and wow, what a difference you can see there...

2. Action Bla Bla. Too much fighting, too little characterisation. Again this was an issue which was all about showing action which you did not care for a bit.

3. Effect hashing (is this an english word?), just going for the short effect like the Promethean Giant being the fifth member. Like Earth Man sleeping with Shady. Like Mon-El becoming a Green Lantern. Coooooool... not.

4. Legion being protrayed as weak. Yes I'll say it: Who is going to fall in love with a bunch of Losers? This was the same with the LSV storyline (just reread, out in German get your copy now smile ), Colossal Boy alone running around like a school boy, getting flashed out by Mekt as if he wa fighting him for the first time. Same problem now, Legionnaires fighting, losing, Fatal Five members mighty smashers, ohooooo. I'm fed up with this kind of portrayal of my favorite characters since childhood.

As I have rerad the whole first run just up until Flashpoint now, I really thought that the stories were better read as a whole, there were some moments I liked - even Earth Man - but all in all it was just not a hit outta the ballpark... went to first base at best. Better and more consistent artwork would have msde the stories look better, like Jimenez did on his all too few issues, and a little more time spent with characterisation of, let's say, Invisible Kid II or Shrinking Violet certainly would not have hurt anybody... there would even have been a book where they could have told it with Adventure, but they had to use that one to cause further continuity problems instead. Lousy except for the Legion Academy Part.

... but now it's too late, I guess this might be the Swan Song for the (kind of) classic Legion in this new DC universe. Anything coming now will be closer tied to the cashcows as the last Previews already showed.

Well, we'll always have a shelf full of wonderful stories, some even presented in oversized HC volumes, maybe we should just skip DC as a whole and turn back to the backlist... right now, having skipped Green Lantern and Stormwatch as well, I'm down to Earth 2.
Posted By: Leather Wolf Re: Legion of Super-Heroes #22 Preview - 08/13/13 03:48 AM
Well, sales figures for July's Legion #22 are out. Legion didn't sell to bad for a book one issue away from the end:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/markets/26456.html

It always amazes me that Legion got cancelled at all when you look a how badly other titles below it in sales are doing. And these are the replacement titles for other failed books!
Doing better than Katana, Dial H, Stormwatch, Batwing, Demon Knights.... Legion has more history than many of these, but then Katana is JLA now and Batwing has the whole Bat franchise thing.

Ah well, I'm sure the Legion will be back sooner or later!
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