http://www.comicosity.com/exclusive-preview-legion-of-super-heroes-23/

I'm not surprised Star Boy ended up dying. The foreshadowing by him in #16 was way to blatant. Nice to see Colossial Boy back in the ranks and for him to mention Yera. Perhaps the Legion Lost team will return this issue... Or not?!?

This will be an interesting read, if nothing more than to put a fitting book cover on the end of 50+ years of Legion history. This may very well be the last time we see the original/retro-boot Legion, so I'm going to savor every last panel as I say goodbye.

Sad, in the first pages and as the final issue.

But lovely artwork!

There goes my "Star Boy might have used his powers to make himself super-dense in order to survive" theory.

If the Legion is revived at some point (& I hope that doesn't happen under the current DC braintrust) I hope that Kevin Maguire is chosen for the art. I remember when killing a character was a rarity, now it seems to be all too commonplace and I think a contributing factor in the failure of the re & threeboots.

Art so pretty! I know in going to want to hug Brainy by the end of this. How sad that the legion should end this way.

It is nice art. Too bad it's the last issue.

I'm torn between being irritated that of course it must be all about Brainiac 5 one last time... and thinking that at least his pose on the cover accurately reflects the feelings of everyone who saw this thing through to the end (not to mention those of us who couldn't be bothered to)...

Say what you will but at least DC is letting them go out with style (artistically so, at any rate).

RIP, guys.

Liking the art! The first few pages feature some Legionnaires I wish I could have seen more of (Jacques, Polar Boy, Sensor, Gim, and Nura). I'm with those who could have used a break from Brainy and the Founding Three.

Didn't Mr. Maguire recently say (after he was dismissed from JL3000 duties) that he would have loved to be on a premier DC title? I can't help think that if he had come on earlier, instead of the one-shot Mr Giffen fiasco, the title might still be going, and with his consistent contribution he would have helped make it a top title.

How true! Maguire on art would have most certainly helped... but not much because we heard fans asking, begging for cancellation of the title because they didn't like the writing or the Retroboot Legion period. While it would have been cool to have Maguire drawing the Legion instead of the second rate artists DC gave us, the title still would have been cancelled because nobody was buying the title thinking it was crap!

I like his panel layout. Gives the splashes without losing pace. Of course I imagine that has a lot to do with the writer. Artist can only fill the pages if the writer gives them something to draw. I HATE when splashes are obviously nothing more than "we don't have enough plot for this issue."

Leather Wolf, I've noticed often that you tend to play the "Blame Game" and, directly or indirectly, blame the cancellation of the title on those here who expressed displeasure for the direction it has taken over the past few years. It's fair to say that most of the sentiment on this site has been negative toward the run. However, few of us "asked" or "begged" for cancellation. And many, like me, continued to buy the book out of sheer loyalty, even when we might have ordinarily just dropped any other book we felt similarly about.

Now, we have 1620 registered members here on Legion World. Of those, less than ten percent post actively. And of those active posters, maybe half have spoken up and posted negatively about the past couple of Levitz-helmed volumes. Of those, some have said they've dropped the book, but many more have said they would stick it out 'til the bitter end.

So your conceit that the people on this board have somehow killed the Legion is based on more than one logical fallacy. We of Legion World did not in any way kill the Legion. Even if we could somehow do that, the number of active posters would not be enough to impact sales significantly to prevent or cause cancellation.

I've bit my tongue to this point, but I've found your repeated insinuations to be pretty offensive. I don't blame you for being bitter about the Legion's cancellation--few here are not at least somewhat bitter about it--but you are grossly misplacing the blame, my friend. It's my sincere hope that you will be mindful of this in the future.

Um well, not to play peacemaker or anything, because that's definitely not my style, he did say "fans" not "LW." And that's probably right because really, it's such a niche book only "fans" would be buying it, or not buying it for that matter.

We DID kill Legion, We DID!!! Bra ha ha (how many "ha's" should there be?)

I'm sorry to offend. It's just a trend that I've seen on several comic related websites around the Internet that people didn't like this run of the Legion at all. That's not an accusation, just a statement. If people don't like a title, and don't buy a title, then DC will and has cancelled a title. No top quality art by Kevin Maguire will change that fact. Gorgeous artwork is not enough to make people want to buy the Legion if they've already made up their minds that the current run is crappy. Yet crappy art on top of dislike of writing and story direction will bring death a whole lot quicker. In my opinion that's what happen with Legion after Portela left the book. Legion got all the second rate guys to draw the last couple of arcs.

I know I saw on other sites (not Legion World) a lot of posts by fans who got excited that Giffen was coming on board, and then saying they'd drop the title even before his first issue, just because they heard that he had already dropped out of the creative team. These posters said that they would only buy Legion because of Giffen, not Levitz because of how poorly this current run has been received.

The truth is Legion and Legion Lost were doomed because of poor sales. A fair amount of Legion fans didn't like either book, and non-Legion fans just don't care. Perhaps no matter how much we all love this title, the Legion franchise has missed it's chance to be a viable title anymore. I'm not going to fret much. I got a couple more years worth of comics added to my collection because of the current run. If this is the end of the Legion then so be it.

I wouldn't say that I disliked all of what happened this time around, Leather Wolf. I would say that the stuff I liked wasn't enough to justify the expense involved in following the book(s) all the way through to the end.

BB, there's no war firing up in the first place.

The reply was not so much to this post as it was to a certain recurring theme in Leather Wolf's postings, some of which were more direct towards others in threads expressing dissenting opinions about the book and seemingly laying the responsibility of the cancellation on them.



Leather Wolf, whether it was your intent or not, the resentment (if that's the best word to use here) towards other fans is misplaced. The internet is here for people to voice their opinions and have them heard by lots of people, and this can be very trying if you let the negativity get to you. But in the end, those people do not bear the responsibility for the book's cancellation. If DC couldn't put out a book that's successful and work to make it as appealing as possible, I'd say it's ultimately on DC.

This is where I wish DC had their old Legion Outpost letter columns in play. In the old days if people didn't like the direction a comic was taking, they'd write a bunch of letters to the books writers and editors and tell them that their product was crap. Nowadays folks express their likes and dislikes on various comic book related websites and fans look for positive or negative buzz about a book. That buzz can help formulate an opinion on whether to pick up a particular title (just like Rotten Tomatoes does with movies). Yet, there doesn't seem to be any direct communication between fans and comic creators. If there had, maybe DC corporate would have stopped and taken notice. As it is, our complaints fall on deaf ears and our praises really don't matter either.

It would be nice for us to be able to address the creators directly, although if they really cared they could make time to check the many sites out there. I do agree with you that it's a darned shame that DC couldn't "fix" the Legion earlier, and it had to come to cancellation.

I will continue to buy a book that I've not enjoyed, if I'm a "fan" of that team or writer. History tells me often stories turn or change and having those issues I didn't like, was key to enjoying the whole. I'm more patient $$$, with characters I am fan of, while other books would be one and done.

Similar for anyone else?

If I enjoy the personalities of the fan board, participation in a fan board makes the stories more enjoyable for me but doesn't mean TO ME that I'm obligated to buy something I continue to dislike or even more, not respect.


I dropped Legion once because I came to disrespect the writer, from things said on a message board. This time I dropped Legion because I came to disrespect the direction. It happens. In neither case would I have wanted the writer to use a fan board to determine their writing and direction.

Please just write the best story you can and let the chips fall where they may. I think that's what Paul Levitz did, within the corporate environment, and it just didn't work. The most fan favorite artist in the world probably wouldn't have changed its fate.

Corporate environment is going to try again with the "not a Legion book," which just happens to be set in of all times, year 3000. lol. Good luck!

I have stuck with LSH thru thick and thin for over 40 years but after this last issue I'm done. I'm so disgusted with DC's mismanagement of the book for the last several incarnations that I just can't bring myself to care anymore. As I've said before, I have hundreds of old LSH books I can reread for the rest of my life. I won't continue buying a book that's been repeatedly run into the ground with bad writing, bad art, and poor editorial decisions.

To be fair, it had been rapidly becoming so. The requests for cancellation were more along the lines of a mercy killing than anything else.

I would like to point out that TPTB at DC are not merely deaf, but willfully deaf.

The comments on LSH #23 have been 'wiped' clean at least three times, apparently due to comments such as this:

"Yep they cancel LSH and we get yet another comic (Justice League 3000) that features Batman, Superman AGAIN! Enough already!"

"So it look like the Justice League 3000 is the replacement for the Legion now. I really hope the Legion that we know and love isn't gone forever :("

"why instead of cancelling DC doesn't improve the book? The LSH is a DC classic. A real symbolic and remarkable book. It should not be cancelled. what bad news."

...or maybe just too many people were commenting?

Where were those comments occurring?

This is what is there right now. Three times this site has been wiped clean of comments.

http://www.dccomics.com/comics/legion-of-super-heroes-2011/legion-of-super-heroes-23

Isn't there some kind of entertainment business model where a property with a small but avid fanbase is turned into a profitable Enterprise?

I'm sure it's been done before...

It's on the tip of my tongue...

...which itself had its ups and downs, but kept coming back.

There's also the idea of 1,000 True Fans, which could work if the Legion were free of big company ownership (which it's not, and more's the pity at this point).

I won't lie, I've been one of the fans who was (on some level) begging for this particular run to be over. Why? Because it hurt. It hurt to see my absolute favorite comic series ever be written so poorly, drawn so badly, and basically treated like CRAP. I wanted that to be over.

Did I stop buying the book, however? Nope! I kept on buying it, despite how awful it had become, because I'm a Legion fan. I was hoping that maybe they'd find someone else to write it. Someone else to draw it. Someone who cared enough to breathe new life into the series. TO CARE.

But it didn't happen. And I, for one, am glad to see the book cancelled for now. I hope, when it's resurrected (and it will be), that it's by someone who really has some new ideas. Some new life.

I just clicked on your link and was able to read all the comments.

I find it noteworthy that one fan mentions the fact that a Batman comic sells 100,000 per month vs. 15,000 for the Legion. I would maintain the opposite of that fan's conclusion based on these numbers: DC could, in fact, afford a couple of "loss leaders" thanks to the success of the Bat-Franchise. But they can't be satisfied with that. No book can be allowed to survive solely because it has some merit for some fans. Every single throw must be hit out of the park every time, or else.

I really hope I'm still alive when the "Bat-bubble" finally bursts. I'll get a little sour satisfaction from seeing DC left with the equivalent of a warehouse full of nothing but rotting potatoes after everyone's finally wearied of potatoes and gone off to purchase/consume something different for a change.

Hey, a woman can dream, can't she?

Agreed. I cannot even tell you how SICK I am of Batman. The only thing I ever really enjoyed about Batman was Nightwing. And, seeing as how Nightwing SUCKS these days, I don't really enjoy anything at all. How DC ruined an awesome character like him, i'll never know.

This is so pretty, I have decided to buy it, thus breaking an almost ban of DC comics, to support KM.

If your intent is to support Kevin Maguire, you might as well plan on buying Marvel as that's where he's headed next, being "done with DC for a while".

Long story.

I will do that as well! GotG here I come.

but I wish he was doing a follow up to Coipel's mostly female X-Men instead ... he would be stellar at it!

I keep hoping that some other company would pick up Legion and "buy" it from DC. Similar to what happens with TV shows sometimes when one network cancels it, another network sees there's enough of a following that they can make it work, buys it up and runs it for another couple seasons.

DC has definitely changed their business model and I wonder if books/teams like Legion fit in with it anymore. It will never be a movie...and that's where the comics money is these days.

Alas, with so much history and links to Superman/Superboy, another company picking it up will be very unlikely. But I can dream.

I vote this

except for the no doubt million lawsuits over who owns what characters, blah, blah, blah...

As much as I would love that I don't think it would ever happen. Jim Shooter could conceivably get the rights to everything he created as a minor but he has said in the past that he had no interest in doing so.

It's not just that, it's that DC does nothing to try to build titles. The Legion has this immense catalog and history that could be digitized and made available to potential readers, but instead DC is selling the old issues online for the price of new. Who is going to buy 5YL or D&A Legion Lost for $1.99 each?

Imagine, however, if DC set it up so that readers could have unlimited access to the Adventure Legion catalog for free for one month. Or for $9.99. Then do that for different eras of the Legion. Don't you think that would generate interest in what is happening in a current title?

Or maybe they could do a few digest-type books that are published for free online as "Introductions to the LSH" that teach about the history. I remember when, not long after I started reading, the Secrets of the Legion of Superheroes miniseries came out. In three issues, it retold the origin, gave a one-page synopsis of every member, and had a plot that turned out to be important over time (revealing that RJ Brande was Durlan and Cham's father). For someone new to Legion history, it was a great way of coming up to speed about the team. There is no reason something like that couldn't be done to help new readers learn about the Legion. Superman and the Legion and Legion of Three Worlds failed miserably at doing that. They catered to longtime Legion fans, but newbies learned little about who who the Legion characters were or their histories.

Well, wow! Initial thoughts after the first read-through:

It's the wrap-up issue, for us and for the Legion, as Brainy feverishly works to fix the galaxy. Lots of Brainy-bashing from other Legionnaires and a scene that makes me think Luornu should have been Leader for Life.

The Legion is over, says Gigi at the end, amid the rubble of Metropolis, with the Legion HQ standing tall. Then there are four epilogues, focusing on Nura, Jeckie & Val, Lu & Chuck and the 3 founders, with Imra saying "our story will never end".

Bittersweet.

Things don't all get fixed nice and tidy; there are dead Legionnaires and badly injured Legionnaires. The U.P. has a big job ahead to put things back to normal. The three founders seem to be taking it pretty well; perhaps they concluded it was time for everyone to move on.

We do get to see a good number of Legionnaires and there is certainly enough set-up to continue the story, if that ever comes to pass.

Well, that's it. It's an end I can live with, I guess. With the Legion disbanded, Levitz provides the set up for a new creative team to come along and reform the Legion at some point, using the Retroboot Legion members, but getting to pick and choose who will be tapped for the new team without the baggage of having to use every character.

Interesting that Levitz sets the stage for Giffen's 5 year gap run to return to Legion continuity minus the fact that Sun Boy is already dead. Also interesting is that Shady is taking Mon-El back home to heal just like she did in towards the end of his last run on the Legion.

My biggest disappointment was that Levitz left the Legion Lost team still lost in the 21st century to die there just as Tyroc's prophecy foretold. It would have been a more enjoyable end to have brought them home before everyone went there separate ways. Gim and Yera deserved their reunion too!

My other disappointment came after the story was over. I had skimmed the pages in thumbnail on my iPhone before actually reading the issue. In that quick browse I thought the two pages for DC's Villan's month promo might have actually been a photo gallery of all the Legionnaires. I wished had been. I really wanted to see a gallery of all the members, past and present, in one place one more time. That would have been a visual tribute to all us fans that I wish Levitz had thought of.

Well folks, it's been nice reading and reacting to the Legion with you. You all take care! Maybe if the Legion comes back we can all have a happy reunion together. Until then, it's been fun!

Frustrating that the Legion just takes it and doesn't fight the decision or go rogue or SOMETHING. They all just give up. Sad.

Also quite a bizarre revelation that this Legion is actually



I guess that opens a lot of doors, or maybe perhaps only gives Justice League 3000 a future without the Legion to worry about. Still a strange thing to just throw out there at the very end.

Yes that's what shocked me too. It does explain a lot of discrepancies in the Legion history that we know, however, and it does open the door for a return of the Legion.

I missed that shocker in my first read. I'll have to reread it again to find that surprise. If so, then it appears that Justice League 3000 is DC's chosen future over the Legion in the New 52. Fifty plus years of Legion history and continuity just tossed aside. Bummer!!!!

UPDATE: I guess the reason I missed Duplicate Damsel's shocking revelation is because I've only read Legion and not sampled any of the rest of the New 52. That does leave the Legion Lost team in even more of a limbo than before! Oh well, what's done is done. I don't care. My Legion collection is now complete. Let DC Comics do with what they will with their universe. Mine is now safely locked in the vault.

You know, the big revelation about the Legion in this issue made the whole last 2 series worth of crap suddenly much more bearable because like Pariscub said, it opens the door for the real Legion to come back some day. I wonder if it would have made a difference knowing that a lot sooner? It would mean much less dissatisfaction at the constant continuity gaffes, that's for sure!

Also, interesting to see Shvaughn Erin even alluded to for the first time since this train wreck began (though I have to wonder if Levitz deliberately didn't mention her by name or show her so as to leave people guessing whether its Shvaughn or Sean?)

I guess it's all over now! A shame we don't have a Legion now, but I can't say I'm gonna particularly miss this particular incarnation of it...

Hmmmmm (he says, suspiciously)....

So, we're now to believe that the Legion is from Earth-2, despite the multiple interactions between them and persons from the DCnU, like Superman for instance?

Either someone has been reading up on string theory (which suggests that time travel would be possible, forward or backward, but not within your own timeline) or this is a truly contrived way of making room in the DCnU for their JLA300 crap (which won't last, IMHO).

Poor decisions right up until the end.

At least the Legion Lost members are still around (somewhere) and could be seen from time to time, assuming that the Powers That Be at DC are willing (which they don't seem inclined to be).

See ya around, Legion, when the current regime falls on its editorial face.

Focusing on the Legion Lost team and their return home to the 31st century only to find the Legion disbanded would indeed be an interesting way to relaunch the Legion franchise someday!

I knew it would be something like this! Now the ridiculous JL3K can be the NU52 "Legion" and the original Legion is still perfectly intact somewhere in the Multiverse. I, for one, am satisfied.

Granted, i'm not thrilled with the Earth 2 Legion just giving in and throwing in the towel, but as the series IS ending...

And granted, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering that the Earth 2 team has technically interacted with the NU52 universe...but...yeah, I'm not going to think about it too deeply because DC makes my head hurt in a bad way.

Yeah...I'm glad it's over for now. And the door is wiiiiddeee open for the return of...something...someone. Who knows?

Frankly I'm just sort of numb about the whole thing. I stopped truly enjoying the book a long time ago, so I don't feel a great pang of loss for it. The back issues are there for enjoyment, anyway.

Lots of good ideas in this thread though, such as;



and



Though as mentioned by Klar Ken, it looks like DC doesn't give enough of a shit to go out and seek fan opinions, so we'll just have to wait for someone with good sense to take the reins.

All of that sounds fine to me, reckless. But I don't think anyone at DC really understands digital access as anything but "competition" for the skimpy paper books they're still desperately trying to move at inflated prices.

Also, while all your ideas would be helpful, I still think that readers would be willing to wade in even with a simple recap intro or perhaps a brief mini-bio available online. With so many fans out there discussing the book and its history, I don't think an enthusiastic reader would hesitate to dive in and dig around and learn at least some of it on their own-- IF the introduction point/story was good enough to capture their enthusiasm. (As I've said before, I also think DC made a mistake (repeatedly) by not looking for new readers outside its own little already-established base. That's harmed a lot of books, I'm sure. Not just this one.)

I mean, all of us, at some point, were brand-new readers who knew little or nothing about the book and the characters in it. Readers around my age or younger must also be familiar with the sensation of diving into a continued comics story smack in the middle, but trying to follow along nonetheless because even the confusing parts were actually interesting.

On the other hand, I do think there is a market out there for digital copies of old issues. I know a lot of us here might fork over a few bucks for the Adventure Era comics because of the good things they've read on the re-read threads, for example.

Speak for yourself, missy. Advanced genetic engineering fused Legion material with my genes in utero.

Haven't been following Nightwing or the Titans recently, but I actually agree. Back in the day, I always found Robin/Nightwing more interesting than Batman. And Batman himself was at his most tolerable in a team setting like The Outsiders. Of course, that was back before Miller's Dark Knight became THE sole vision of the character: So before Batman was the ultra-perfect, all powerful Mary Sue who Is Never Wrong About Anything Ever.

... and who can beat ANYONE as long as he has time to prepare. Sigh.

His (and Superman's) treatment of Wonder Woman after she had killed Maxwell Lord (to save Superman from his mental control!!!), plus Batman's role in creating the OMACs, totally turned me off from his character.

So DC gets to crap on two sets of fans here! The Legion ends ingloriously, leaving things in a muddled time nightmare of a stew AND those of us who were looking forward to James Robinson's idea of an Earth 2 Infinity, Inc. inspired version of the Legion now know we'll never see it.

I guess there wasn't much likelihood of that seeing print, anyway. Given Robinson's recent departure. Though I suppose II could travel to the past from a more recent future, relatively speaking

I hope any futue creators ignore whatever parts of the last several years they wish when the Legion next appears. Sun Boy alive and well... Phantom Girl back and stable... Star Boy hale...Earth 1, 2, 5, Y or #@$&.

I kind of doubt we'll see a from-the-ground-up new version, but what do I know? I never would've believed Paul Levitz would write such a downer of a conclusion for the team he purpotedly loves. For the second tme!

What a sad, sad day. Appropriate that it's a blue moon.

Still, hope is.

LONG LIVE THE LEGION!

It's absolutely ridiculous what kind of tech Batman can put together. RIDICULOUS. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have some kind of cool technology that's slightly beyond what is currently available, but come on! Some of the tech he has puts the LEGION to shame. Batman needs some limits otherwise he's exactly a Mary Sue.

Not necessarily! I mean, at the end of the issue the Legion is technically disbanded, right? So there's room for them to come back together under different circumstances and different workings, right?

I flipped through this issue at the store and it looked horribly depressing. What a sorry conclusion for a once-great title.

Earth 2, huh? Wonder how that will work out when Earth 2 is destroyed in some future crisis? Oh, who cares!

Guess there is some logic to it, as the Earth 2 Superman's career is over, so changes to him don't invalidate the Legion. And that's why we probably won't see a Legion again under this creative regime, and why the Legion has struggled since the end of the classic Earth 1 bronze age Superman. That Suoerman had a past, present and future, all of which allowed the Legion to "fit in" with the DCU. Despite Grant Morrison's great work with the future of Superman over the years, it's not at all clear what vision of the future the architects of the new 52 have or want. Legion Lost was an attempt to start that conversation, but it seems like a blind alley now, like so much of the new 52.

That I can say?
Paul Levitz, Keith Giffen have ruined one of the best titles of science fiction of last 50 years.
The deaths of Sun Boy and Star Boy have been totally unjustified and insulting for these big heroes.
They turned Phantom Girl into a ridiculous parody of the brave heroine that always being has demonstrated.
And as providing that they close a series, many things stay without explaining... Those who are the legionnaires badly wounded that are in the tanks of treatment ... a silhouette can be Night Girl, but Cosmic Boy does not seem to be worried by she, since he is enjoying of the beach with Imra and Garth. Which was the destiny of Dragonwing and Comet Queen?
Does Chemical Kid never enter battle with Fatal Five, why not even has an alone time appears in this final episode?
Are all a bad dream, of Dream Girl, like the final season of Dallas?
The Earth 2 revelation makes me have the hope of which the real legion is in some place...
And I hope that the publishing DC has learned of his mistakes, and for the near time (if it is that there is near time for the Legion) do not change the origins of the heroes, new characters try to create as the horrible Dragonwing, Harmony and Comet Queen that him there have not liked the old fans,
Simply that it returns to the basic thing....
The friends of the future of a young Superman....
Farewell Imra, Garth, Rokk, Luornu, Tinya, Kal, Kara, Querl, Gim, Reep, Lyle, Dirk, Thom, Tenzil,Jo, Ayla, Salu, Lydda, Brek, Jam, Chuck, Nura, Andrew, Val, Projectra, Lar, Tasmia, Condo, Brin, Drake, Dawnstar, Troy, Mysa, Jacques, Blok, Ganglios, Pol, Quislet, Yera, Drura, Celeste, Kent, Britta, Laurel, Rond, Sussa, Devlin,Veilmist, Berta, Jedediah ,Zoe, Jenni, Candi, Gates, Jazmin, Shikari, Gear, April, Danielle, Xao and my favotite villain : Sarya. Long Live The Legion!

It's just sad that the entirety of Phantom Girl's stint as Legion leader has her whining, crying, and running away never to be seen again until the end of the series. It's utterly disrespectful to the character.

Yeah, her character was treated especially badly. I mean, what HAPPENED TO HER?! There is literally no answer. Does Levitz hate her or something?

Read it. What a beautifully illustrated turd of a story! If this is the earth 2 legion, how did we have a huge green lantern corps arc? Or was that before new 52? Why should I care, now? There's no explaining Paul's treatment of Phantom Girl, a character he wrote fairly well in this pyrrhic run, and a character for whom he has frequently expressed affection. I don't even remember what happened to the newbies. But at this point, why care? The Luorno & Chuck epilogue was beautiful, it brought a tear to my eye, and the stupid earth 2 reference ruined it! BTW, who else thinks this Karate Kid is a Projectra illusion? I sure do. But, who cares? And the founders relaxing on Winath when the universe needs rebuilding? The people who embraced Superman's never ending battle as their own? Character assassination, pure and simple. But, really, at this point, who cares? The Legion will be a beloved childhood memory for me. Perhaps it should stay that way. I'm 46. Time to grow up and love Wolverine and Deadpool like everyone else. Time to set aside the Lightning Lads, the Bouncing Boys, the Duo Damsels, the Timber Wolves, the Wildfires. Farewell my friends, rest in peace, you deserved a better valedictory than this pathetic denouement. But life and comics aren't fair.

I was waiting for that moment in the issue that would make me just start bawling, but it never happened. Closest to doing it was the Chuck/Lu epilogue. If I were a writer with such an epic association with the Legion coming to an end, I would've just made it as warm and emotional as possible. Bring the Lost crew back. Have Tinya show up and jump into Jo's arms. Have Thom and/or Dirk show up alive. Hell, why not reflect our times and end it with Vi and Ayla getting married?

And why leave Brainy so alone and distraught with the weight of the U.P. on his shoulders? His last scene was almost like the ending of "Shane" with Brainy calling out to the others to come back. Lu gave him a little tough love, but otherwise, this just paints Brainy as being irredeemably self-centered in a way that even Threeboot Brainy wasn't. Yes, it's consistent with how Paul has written him since Paul took over the Retroboot, but it's damned hurtful to those of us who loved the character in his previous incarnations.

This wasn't a tearful farewell; it was a solemn ending with little or no hope for the future. Many of us (not me) have given Paul somewhat of a pass, citing that maybe he was so hamstrung by DC editorial that he couldn't write the book as passionately as he had in the past. Subscribers to that theory may cite his choices to leave virtually all of his dangling plots unresolved and to end on such a total downer as being proof positive, confirmation to the fans that this was indeed the case. Frankly, I almost hope it was the case because I was expecting a lot more fan-service in his farewell than we actually got.

Oddly enough, though, this was still ironically one of the best issues of the past two volumes under Levitz. If you subtract the lack of fan service, it served as a suitable epilogue tale to both the story that preceded it and of the Retroboot Legion's two volumes, such as they were. The tone of the story matched the bulk of the run, and we certainly got closure of sorts. If that sounds like a backhanded compliment, well, it is. But it is true, I feel, that it is one of the better issues overall.

Kevin Maguire's art was appreciated. It wasn't his best work, but it was very much in line with some of Portela's better work on the series. A few times, those trademark Maguire facial expressions shone through and hit the mark, but otherwise his work looked a lot like Portela's, which, admittedly, was one of the brighter sides of Retroboot. I'm certainly thankful we got him instead of a return for Kolins or any number of fill-in artists.

Wow! With this issue I've now possibly bought my last new comic set in the (or "a") DC Universe! This and Dial H were my last two holdouts, and both ended their runs this very month. If this is it for the characters therein whom I grew up with, then I leave with no regrets. No matter what I think of the state of DC now, I will leave with great memories that will last a lifetime. Many more great memories than poor ones, certainly.

And whatever the future, the Legion will Live Long in this fan's heart!

*sniffle* I think this has me more emotional than anything i've read in the past two weeks. Including the last issue. Long live the Legion!

aww come on ... an

If that was going to be the case ...this could have been interesting .... I think they just threw that in at the end and didn't plan it that way!

My store didn't have it today ... not sure if it sold out or is delayed.

I for one would like to find out how much editorial interference there was during Paul's run as writer this time around.

Not farewell, but until we meet again. Long Live the Legion!

(Let's add Shikari, Berta, Yera, and Drura too!)

I'd be willing to bet a LOT, right up to the end.

The "Earth 2" thing, for instance, has no in-story relevance whatsoever, but has definite implications within the DCFU (DC 52 Universe). If editorial had nothing to do with it, why put it in at all?

Not to mention the fact that the reference is, in fact, wrong. In Earth 2 #1, it's not Superman who gets speared by Steppenwolf, it's Wonder Woman. Supes is looking on in horror, only to be killed moments later by the explosion of the pack of parademons grappling him...

Okay, so maybe Bouncing Boy is misremembering his history, but if so, how do they have the Superman shirt that was "speared" as Chuck says?

I hate to admit it but Levitz let me down with this ending. Why would the UP want the Legion disbanded after everything came undone? The team doesn't even ask but just complies?!? There were some nice bits with DD & BB but it doesn't make up for the rest. On a side note I also figured KK was going to end up being Projectra illusion. Glad at least that didn't happen.

Poor Dyrk. I'll never forget you.

LOVE IT! STEALING IT!

I am mournfully afraid that this is actually the case.

Oops. I THOUGHT Dyrk was already there!

You're not misreading anything. it is simply that this issue, like many before it of late is POORLY WRITTEN!!!!!

And the Earth-2 thing is contrived and seemingly only thrown in so as to make JLA3000 the default future team rather than the Legion.

One wonders what will happen when JLA3000 falls flat on it's face.

Long Live the Legion. Yay.

This issue barely made me feel anything. Time to dive into the back issues.

You know the image on the cover pretty much sums up my feelings on the entire series since the DCFU started; what a fucked up mess!
I can picture Paul sitting in his office , head in hands thinking..."What have I done???"

I can't believe his treatment of Phantom Girl?

I agree with the person that said he kind of set up the whole 5 year gap scenario. Legion is disbanded... Mon-el is with Shady trying to be healed, PG is missing and Jo is distraught, and wasn't Cosmic Boy having trouble with his powers earlier and in the 5 year gap he had lost his powers for a bit?? (been too long since I read that series)

I guess the Earth 2 thing makes sense, since everyone has been out of character the entire series? Obviously thrown in at the last minute to make way for JLA 3000.



Anyhoo...I'm just going to enjoy the fact that I have an actual Legion ring and that my 7 year old daughter wants a Duplicate Damsel costume and will someday (hopefully) be able to enjoy a new fresh take on the Legion

LONG LIVE THE LEGION

You have now put more thought and creative effort into this than anyone at DC. Congratulations!

So, the one thing I actually really liked about this issue was the reference to other universes where things might have turned out better. How awesome and full of potential would it have been if they'd actually given us glimpses of some of those universes? I like to think that *my* Thom and Nura, for example, are still living happily ever after in that little Stellar Observatory on Xanthu.

Anyway, a pretty blah conclusion to what has to have been one of my least favorite incarnations of the Legion. The Earth 2 thing really reminded me of Johns suddenly relegating the threeboot Legion to Earth Prime to make way for his new version. I wonder if there's any chance Levitz might revisit the team in World's Finest?

I'm not sure what to feel after reading this final issue. I've been a loyal Legion fan since 1980 and I can honestly say I've continued to collect only (especially the last couple of years) because it is the Legion. It certainly had nothing to do with the quality of the stories or the art, thats for sure!!! So why was this final issue so well written and beautifully drawn?!? DC said that fan purchase of the title (or lack thereof) and increasingly dropping sales was the cause for its cancelation. Well the truth of the matter is DC failed its readers with the lack of quality in the rushed product they put out (and continue to do so) every month. If the LSH had a cult like following for 55 years and then it wanes like it did in the last couple of years...perhaps YOU DC, are the problem!!! I'm sure the Legion will "find its place" again like they always do. I'm sure it will be another reboot of some sort but I hope it's sooner than later. I guess we just have to wait until the JLA 3000 debacle makes its debut and comes crashing down as we all know it will and from the ashes of that "poop-fest" the Legion will be reborn!!!

Ditto. The fact that this team is from Earth-2 (which I admittedly don't care much about) makes me care about this incarnation of the Legion even less than I did before. They are, essentially, forgettable. And it is plainly obvious that the Earth-2 "twist" was forcefully tacked on so that JL3K could be the NU52 "Legion".

I am curious, however, what the ORIGINAL intent of that #0 issue was. Was it actually to implicate Brainy in Tharok's attempt to take over the universe? Or was it something else?

I didn't even get the Earth-2 reference until reading what you guys wrote here. Not everyone reads other books and if you don't, you won't think of that as anything more than a reference to the Legion having inaccuracies in their history books (something that was done post-Crisis a lot).

I still don't believe that Dirk is dead, either. A faceless body is, in comics, just as bad as "never saw the body", and when we recently saw the realm of the dead a few issues back he wasn't in it.

Conjure Lass:



I'd assumed it was to have the original Brainiac as a villain in LSH, with him (it?) pulling the strings in Tharok's robot half. (Brainiac is currently a robot, right? I can never be sure these days. If not, then maybe the old Computer Tyrants of Colu.) Of course, Tharok ended up not being the familiar cyborg after that.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. Seeing Brainiac (would they call him Pulsar Stargrave again? HAHA!) in the 30th century would be pretty awesome. I...don't know if he's a robot in the DCFU or not.

the legion went out with a whimper...it was truly awful...not a single redeeming feature...no wait... Sensor with a Saturn girl lookalike haircut.....no ummm Invisible Kid with dreadlocks....ok no Gim in a hot new costume (ok give you that one) Gigi as some kinda power beetch...ok, i like Gims hot new costume. :-)

RIP the Legion....hopefully JLA 3ooo will be joining you soon.

Conjure Lass:



Well, they gave that name to a new character - Larfleeze's valet.

"We have plans for you," says Gigi to Element Lad. What the heck is that all about?!

Re setting up the Legion for a 5 years Later scenario, let's add Dream Girl's major welcome back to Naltor. She's the only Legionnaire we've seen welcomed that way.

I wonder why they even bothered with Karate Kid's return at all. To throw the fans a bone after the butchering of Sun Boy, Star Boy and disappearance of Phantom Girl? Oh well, at least I can pretend to myself he is alive and well despite what others have said about him not interacting with anyone besides Jeckie.

And yes, what is up with the 3 founders (including Mr. and Ms. Responsible Cosmic Boy and Saturn Girl) on Winath? Heck, even retired Legionnaires Lu and Chuck came running back to help.

Injured Legionnaires - there's a female-looking figure beside Mon-El's tank. Dragonwing?

Harmonia as deputy. Frankly, I have a hard time believing that the Legionnaires would have voted her in as deputy when they know next to nothing about her. Unless she revealed her history to them behind the scenes. I have a hard time believing fans would have voted her deputy too though. Editorial choice? Well, she didn't do anything deputy leader-like in her term either.

I agree with the poster who said that Duplicate Damsel acted most like a Legion leader in this issue.

Colossal Boy was also written well, and I'm glad he reappeared. In issues like this, I enjoy the calmer and more professional Legionnaires (Lu, Chuck, Jan, Gim) than the emotional and argumentative ones (Jo, Tasmia, Brainy).

Did they? I did not know that. Surely he's not as awesome as this:

He's not, but he's very sarcastic. That's worth something, at least.

Nothing could top Levitz/Giffen's previous Stargrave story!

Classic.

This makes me smile and want to dig this issue out. Gonna do that this weekend. It'l;l take the sting out of the Legion being gone and Affleck being cast as Batman.

Affleck as Batman, Ryan Reynolds as Green Lantern before, what next: Robert Pattinson as the Flash?

Re the Stargrave story, heehee! Grandian Gender Reversal germs galore!

What was most disturbing about this Legion of Earth-2 revelation is that since Levitz made real strides to assure fans that the Retroboot Legion was a contiunation of the Original Legion and his run in the 1980's, then this twist shoves the whole Legion and its 50+ years of history out of the official DCU/DCnU just so JL3K can be the official future of the DC Universe. What a sham!

I choose to believe that this is a divergent Legion, and the original Earth 1 Legion is still out there somewhere. I also choose to believe that only the latest series is in the Earth-2 universe.

Over at Bleeding Cool News, someone suggested that Star Boy might have used his multiverse suit to escape being crushed by the debris.

Funny how we cling to this shreds of hope for imaginary characters, but that idea cheered me up a bit.

He did? Back when I dropped the book, he (or editorial) seemed to be doing everything they could to make sure that everything we thought we knew about the Legion's history was wrong.

---

As for the Earth 2 twist, I don't have a problem with it. The Retroboot Legion has sucked ever since Geoff Johns left... and now we don't have to ever care about them again.

Levitz wrote a letter to the fans editorial in th back of Legion #1 vol. 6 spelling out the true continuity of the Legion being everything from Archives #1-13 and beyond, his run in LSH vol. 3 ending #63, Action Comics #858-863, recent Adventure Comics #505-514 and Legion of 3 Worlds. Levitz told fans that his new stuff in LSH vol. 6, Aventure Comics #521-529, and by extension (since Legion was not supposed to be rebooted in New 52) Legion vol. 7 and Legion Lost vol. 2 would all be in official continuity. Given that Levitz's editorial spelled out official continuity for the Original/Retroboot Legion, everything we read from his hand recently, is official Legion history (including the occasional continuity glitches).

This is why the revelation in LSH #23 about Legion being from Earth-2 is so startling. DC Editorial shifted 50+ years of Legion history and continuity right from under us to make Justice League 3K the official future of the DC Universe. While it may be comforting to think that Levitz's run was just a niche Legion, Levitz' editorial in vol. 6 #1 begs to differ. I'm ok with that. I have to be, because I tend to believe that the Legion is finished at DC for a long time to come. They can have JL3K be their future now that my Legion collection is complete!

yes.

Playing devil's advocate for a sec....I wonder if the Earth 2 revelation was Paul Levitz's concession to fans who have complained about this iteration of the Legion pretty much since he started writing again? He seems like a reasonable man from interviews I've read and he definitely doesn't come across as one of those ego-driven writers who buys into their own hype. Even if he genuinely did the best job he could over these past few years, he can't be blind to the fact that lots of his retcons and additions were badly received by long-time fans. I think he knows how passionate the LSH's fan base are about these characters so I wonder if this might have been his way of saying "look guys, I really didn't screw up YOUR Legion at all and in fact they're probably living happily out there just waiting for the right creative team or time to come back!"

It's tempting to blame DC for it as a method of clearing the way for JL3K or whatever it's called (and it may still actually be the case!) but I also honestly wouldn't be surprised if they let Paul throw it in there just because anyone higher up wouldn't really care one way or the other....I'm sure if he hadn't done something to give the JL dudes a clean slate the Legion just would never have been mentioned again anyway, at least this way we have somewhere to fit them in the multiverse; unlike all those poor fans of Stephanie Brown, Wally West and his family, Donna Troy, Black Alice, Misfit, Gail Simone's Secret Six and so on who just one day never existed JUST CUZ.....food for thought anyway!

Oh, and I can't remember who it was that pointed out the Earth 2 reference was wrong anyway....all that says to me though is that maybe it's a different Earth altogether, one we hadn't seen before now (and to be honest I'd be really really happy to not have a xenophobic Earth associated with "my" Legion....to me that was one of the most damaging changes, and it's one that Levitz kinda just got lumped with)

I'd be interested to see what peeps think of that idea?

Not quite. They did it to make JL3K the official future of the DCFU. The actual DC Universe (which was in reality a multiverse) ceased to exist with the publication of Crisis On Infinite Earths in 1985.

I think I pretty much agree with everything razsolo just posted.

I'm not sure about the "Earth 2" thing in particular, but I definitely think the whole line "And somewhere, there are other universes where it's all probably happened very differently" was meant to accomplish exactly what you say, by basically pointing out that's there room for purer Earth 1 style Legions out there in the multiverse somewhere, as well as whatever other incarnations people like. That's why that was easily my favorite bit in the issue!

That's pretty much how I feel. The farther away we get from Crisis on Infinite Earths, and the more DC jumps through hooks to resurrect everyone killed in the Crisis (Supergirl? Back. Barry Allen? Back. The Crime Syndicate? Back.), and the more DC fought to undo it (Hypertime! The Multiverse is back! Fifteeee-tooo!) the more I feel like it was a gorgeously-drawn terrible idea.

I disagree that it was a terrible idea. I think it was a great idea destroyed by people who put their own agendas ahead of maintaining consistent continuity. Putting the JSA and the JLA and the Marvel family in the same universe, IMHO, produced a much richer DCU than the Pre-Crisis situation ever was. And it really did leave most of pre-Crisis continuity intact, altered only slightly.

But once they started screwing around with the blueprint provided by the "History of the DCU" two-part prestige series and the "Secret Origins" series, that started the mess rolling. "Get rid of Superboy from the Legion", "Oops, put that back in, because the new Supergirl's origin is based on it.", "Destroy the Green Lantern Corps.", "Re-create the Green Lantern Corps.", "Re-introduce Hawkman, who we've already seen in JLI", "Bring back the original Doom Patrol", "Legion not selling? Scrap the character histories and have Waid re-invent the whole concept.", "Bring back the original Supergirl."

The integrated DCU is the platform for most of my favorite stories. James Robinson's Starman series. Geoff Johns' JSA (Mordru, Eclipso and Kobra fighting the JSA, in a story that seamlessly included Dove of Hawk & Dove and Arion of Atlantis, and all prior incarnations of Doctor Fate? Brilliant stuff that could not have happened in the pre-Crisis split multiverse.) The Books of Magic. 52 (Elongated Man, the Question, Black Adam, and that host of mad sceintists all in a single, character-driven story? Awesomeness.)

The Crisis on Infinite Earths was possibly the best thing to ever happen to DC. It's the wild editorial fiats that followed that screwed things up, and the New 52 is the biggest one of those ever.

Sure, everyone thinks it's stupid that the Legion never met the Fatal Five, but the retcons and additions aren't the *biggest* complaints about the series, the biggest complaint is bleh writing.

At the very least, Paul gave us some hope that our beloved Legions are still out there.

Yes, and writers have done the same with other Legions.

* The Time Trapper promised the Adult 5YL Legion and Batch SW6 Legionnaires that he would keep them in a "safe place" as their universe ended

* The Reboot Legion escaped the destruction of their universe, and when last seen where "Wanderers"

* The Threeboot Legion was safely ensconced on the old 'Earth-Prime'

Happens a lot to the Legion.

The only other DC characters I can remember that were "preserved" in this way were the original Earth-2 Superman, Lois Lane, and the original Superboy-Prime at the end of "Crisis on Infinite Earths. (Of course that didn't work out well. The Earth-2 Superman has already died twice.)

And Ariella Kent. Peter David had the Spectre promise, speaking for 'God' Himself, that Ariella Kent would always exist somewhere, no matter how much the Universe might change. (Even if it is in the 853rd century.)

My brain hurts just from reading this thread. How anybody can keep all these continuities straight is beyond me.

And we all know what happened to the others... Even though Superboy-Prime was (I think) still alive as of Flashpoint, his character assassination was a fate worse than death.

[snip]



No kidding. It also drove me nuts in the JLA/JLU stories that he was always some kind of ultimate moral beacon for all humanity, to the point where he was some resistance leader in one of the quasi-fascist future scenarios. Uh, no. I'd think that Batman, with his overcontrolling personality and constant assertion that he knows what's best for everyone, would have been first in line to crush anti-fascists, not lead them to victory.

In what way is the Earth-2 reference wrong? That definitely is one for the continuity list.

TOTALLY agree Jim!! Rather than creating all of these convoluted scenarios why not just say... here are some new Legion stories... continuity may or may not apply... the result is the same in any case.

and this is a fan base that might enjoy that. I certainly enjoyed many of the longer plot threads started by Levitz but I was much happier with the onsey-twosies of the ADV-Action-Superboy era than with the last two boots. I think I'd rather have an occasional two issue story-line to ignore than years' worth.

Does DCFU=DC Fucked Universe?

What Ken said. With the amount of editorial interference @ DC I really don't think that they'd let Paul predict that the New Earth Superman will also be killed by a villain named Steppenwolf. It's also not a stretch to say that the line about Steppenwolf sending Superman to his doom was not written by Paul Levitz.

Finally got it. Sad ending. Not like 50 of the last run, which was sad because it was such shit, but sad because in many ways it was the end of the "real" legion to many of us old timers. And like someone else said... whimper, not bang.

I think it stands for "DC Fifty-Two Universe". But since "FU" is more commonly associated with the phrase "F**k you" (which seems to be Didio, Harras and the rest of editorial's attitude to the fans) the acronym is perfect IMO.

Early in the issue, we see Bouncing Boy bringing in Superman's "speared" shirt from the remains of the Trophy Room. Later we find out that their Superman was "sent to his doom" by Steppenwolf.

In Earth 2 #1, however, it is actually Wonder Woman who is speared by Steppenwolf. Superman is killed in some sort of explosion by the Parademons.

So, if these references were meant to establish this Legion as being from Earth 2, they seem to be incorrect, though, as someone else pointed out, they could mean this Legion is from a world very similar to Earth 2 in which is was Supes who was stabbed.

I bought and read it yesterday. It wasn't the perfect end, but it was, I think, the best they could do under the circumstances.

Having said that, the Legion will be back. I'm sure of it.

In the absence of knowing who else might have been involved in plotting or writing dialogue for the last issue, we really have no one other than Levitz to blame directly.

As to the error...

Since Steppenwolf has only appeared in the Earth-2 stories in the New 52 continuity (if that word even means anything to DC anymore), and since the only parallel reality acknowledged to exist in the New 52 stories so far is Earth-2, it's not much of a stretch to assume that the reference to Steppenwolf is meant to imply that the Legion from this series is from Earth-2's 31st century. And that means that Levitz (or whoever else wrote that Bouncing Boy line) didn't bother to fact-check James Robinson's Earth-2 stories, where it's Wonder Woman who dies at Steppenwolf's hand in Earth 2 #1, not Superman. Given the apparent lack of caring for continuity being demonstrated by DC these days, I suppose that's hardly surprising.

If it's not an error, then we're left with two possibilities.

First, this Legion is indeed from New Earth's future, and at some point between the present day and the 31st Century, a New Earth character named Steppenwolf will kill Kal-El. As indicated, I doubt DC editorial would allow Levitz (or anyone) to make such a significant plot prediction, especially as what really amounts to a throwaway line.

Second, this Legion is from an as-yet-unnamed/unnumbered continuity beyond New Earth and Earth-2 -- one that, in all likelihood, will never be referenced again. If that's the case, it magnifies the irrelevance of this series even further, creates even more continuity headaches with the Legion Lost characters in New Earth's present day (if they're ever referenced again, of course), and serves as more of an insult to the history and legacy of what was once considered one of DC's premier superhero teams, and one of the first team books in all of comics history. The Legion stories were once considered the definitive future of the DC Universe, and following reboot after reboot, successes and failures, they may now have been relegated to an irrelevant side timeline no writer ever mentions again. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

At least with an Earth-2 Legion, we know they're connected to an established parallel universe in this post-Flashpoint continuity (even if it's not the one we'd all assumed), and that leaves the door open for someone to either pick up the threads of this story and tell tales of what happens to these characters next, or to possibly tell tales of a New Earth Legion at some point. I'm not crossing my fingers on either of those happening, though.

In the end, Earth-2 or not, the ending to this series is bittersweet. On one hand, it means this poorly-written version of our favorite team of heroes can't continue to get any worse -- and that's a good thing. On the other hand, there's no indication that we'll ever see another LSH story published in the future. And that saddens me.

RIP Legion of Super-Heroes (1958-2013?)
"The Legion is dead. Long live the Legion!"

I disagree. I am convinced based on the (de)construction of the writing in some of this latest Legion version versus past history of previous stories by Mr. Levitz that he has been jerked around these last few years by DC's publishers and editorial edicts. The erratic storytelling is due to consistent intrusions and demands causing rewrites by Levitz to his carefully measured sub-plotting (his forte), which was never allowed to mature and print the way he had originally conceived them. Examples of this are the Earth Man inheritance, the Green Lantern intrusion, and the ridiculous retro-reboot of the Fatal Five (as never being together before? Why?). The Legion Academy stories and the Secret Origin 6-parter were good reading because of excellent art along with non-interference in the story (just compare Phantom Girl in the Secret Origin story to the Fatal Five drek!).

Mr. Levitz is too much of a team player on DC to complain or point fingers on why the Legion results were poor. To the contrary, he was genuinely concerned with providing Legion fans hope the Legion was still alive in this final issue and could relaunch at a future time, while clearing the way for and promoting the upcoming JL3000 series. I think Mr. Levitz has treated DC better than it has treated him.

The only flaw in this theory is that the New Gods do not exist in the Multiverse. That is the in-universe explanation of why the majority of New Gods stories remained canon after Crisis of Infinite Earths. It is also used to explain how they are able to appear on any Earth they want in the NuDCU: they exist in a different dimension outside of the Multiverse.

THAT is the big problem. If you follow a series, you have to have some continuity or regular readers are going to lose interest. Penguin #1 and Cheetah #1 may outsell this latest Legion, but how many times can DC keep going to the Issue #1 well and still retain any kind of consistent client base?

DC's ADD publishers don't seem to get it...

I disagree there. I suppose the Legion Academy stories were passable but less so after Jimenez left. Phil clearly injected that run with most of it's charm, and Paul was nearly rudderless without him.

Secret Origin, I felt was an absolute snooze-fest from start to finish. Batista put in a valiant effort, but nothing could save the meandering, lifeless script that Paul gave him.

My opinion, at least, for what it's worth.



Totally agree there. I think Levitz also hangs in there as a DC company man because of their supporting his 75 Years of DC Comics: The Art of Modern Mythmaking book. Seems I read about him talking up some sequels to it, iirc.

In regard to this last issue, I really enjoyed the artwork. Kevin Maguire did a great job, and I would have loved to see more of his Legion vision.

I congratulate Paul Levitz on wrapping up this run in a competent and satisfactory manner, considering the one issue constraint placed upon him. Duplicate Damsel was a shining star, and having Colossal Boy back were favorite parts. Admittedly, I was disappointed how Star Boy's grave was not shown at all, even as Dream Girl was nearby. I would have also liked to have seen Phantom Girl do Something else else...

I agree with previous posters who said the "revelation" that our Legion has all along been on an alternate Earth, or pocket universe/different dimension/nether galactic realm/thingy is a real slap in the face by a gauntlet to all Legion fans and all creative teams who have built up and supported this terrific 50+ year monument of work to date.

If they really wanted to actually run with this plot point, and establish "Steppenwolf" as Superman's killer in some indeterminate point in Superman's future, they can just create a new character using the Steppenwolf name, without necessarily connecting him to the New Gods mythos at all. After all, "continuity be damned" seems to be one of DC Editorial's mottoes these days.

Fair enough. I only meant that Levitz was the only named writer attached to this issue, so at first glance, it's easy to point the finger at him for the shoddy way this series was ended. No doubt he had bigger and better plans that were shelved by DC Editorial's decision to can the series.

The CBR review of this issue.

Also, in his weekly Buy Pile column, Hannibal Tabu gives it an "Honorable Mention" and says:

Kevin Maguire's artwork on "Legion of Super-Heroes" #23 was perfect, down to the facial expressions, but Levitz' story made the machinations of Coruscant's Galactic Senate seem like a roller coaster ride with the JLA and the Avengers by comparison. Quite a lame ending for the future's finest super team.

You know, as much as I know they'd never have done this, it occurs to me that there was a way to set this "New 52" Legion up as existing in a different timeline (Earth-2 or otherwise) while reconciling all the continuity glitches in this run (like the Fatal Five seemingly not having met the Legion before this last arc, the Steppenwolf "error", the Legion Lost/ECHO time travel inconsistencies, or Phantom Girl's characterization, to name a few) with everything that came before Flashpoint, and doing so in a manner that would have been less insulting to longtime fans. In fact, I think it would have been a real treat...

Just imagine -- what if this entire run were nothing more than one of the alternate-reality visions glimpsed by Douglas Nolan (brother of Ferro Lad) from way back in Legion v.2 #300 (1983)? Levitz wrote that one, too. Kind of coming full circle.

=====

Then there's my favorite tongue-in-cheek way to end the series. Going out on a something of a high note, the whole team together once again as the universe collapses around them, too damaged by Tharok's destruction of technology to survive long. Perhaps having the Legion's universe/timeline fade to white as it has a few times before. The second-to-last page would be all-white, with one line of dialogue in the last panel: "Hello, anybody here?" (turn to the last page of the series, a splash page of Quislet, finally returned after so long away, delivering lines like "Woohoo! Quislet finally made it back to Legion's universe from who-knows-where! Now to find Legion buddies and celebrate!" and (last line) "Hello? Legion friends, where are you? Yoo-hoo! Anybody here? Anybody at all?"

Oh, but we know Batman is ALWAYS right. If someone else makes a mistake, he or she is worthless.

If Batman makes a mistake, he probably did it on purpose!

Since Levitz already opened that door, why not? And at least now we'd know where the heck Quislet is!

There's also (I think someone suggested it already in this thread) Dream Girl waking up from a dream, and going all "oh, at least it's not a PROPHETIC dream";

or we could have had it revealed that Tharok was dreaming all about this, and a knowing Saturn Girl or Sensor Girl going, "Even in their dreams, evil never wins."

Maybe he had a co-author: Justin Thyme.

I will take the generous position that the Earth-2 mixup was a simple failure to communicate. The Earth-2 death of Superman had no doubt not been published while Legion #23 was still being scripted; there may have been last-minute details of which Levitz was not aware.

I don't think this Legion #23 will have any real repercussions in the DCFU anyway; I mean, I don't think we'll see Harmonia Li on Earth-Two, or an alternate-universe Chuck and Lu still married in JLA3K, as might be inferred from the dialogue.

Considering Earth-2 #1 was published a year and a half ago, I'm relatively sure the script for LSH #23 wasn't totally completed yet.

I really like this idea. LSH #300 is one of my all-time faves!

While we're at it, can we declare the entire DCFU an Elseworld?

Considering how inconsistent it is, I don't know it can be declared any kind of world.

Kevin Maguire made the issue for me, I hope he gets to draw the inevitable relaunch/reboot.

It felt so much like Levitz was writing his version of a segue to the 5 Year Gap it was almost distracting.

I hope *WHEN* LSH comes back, it is under a name as huge as Johns or Morrison, or that it comes back under a completely unknown writer bursting at the seams with nutty ideas.

I vote completely unknown writer with nutty ideas, myself.

Unknown with nutty ideas, definitely.

I'm not that impressed with the art. Sure, it's better than Scott Kollins, but it's not even close to Yildray Cinar or Francis Manapul, IMO.

In defense of Scott Kollins, his art on the Postboot Legion (around issue 110-118 IIRC) was pretty good. Perhaps he just had poor synergy with the inker.

If Grant Morrison could launch an All-Star Legion title as an on going series with Kevin Maguire on art I'd be all over it.

You know who LOVES the Legion and has a bunch of crazy ideas for the group: Chris Batista. I started talking Legion to him at SDCC this year and an hour later he was still throwing out great idea after idea of what to do with the group.

Any hints, Dave? Or did he ask you to keep it quiet?

Well, he said no one at DC seemed interested, so I doubt it's confidential. A big component of what he wanted to see was emphasis that the Legion's in the future, so it shouldn't be running around with tech worse that Batman and the JLA use now.

Why can't they have teleporters, tech stealth suits, etc. Why are they stuck on monitor duty in a room full of screens when a modern cell phone could do all of that today? Shouldn't the rings be so advanced they can take care of that?

Even the (at the time) future tech that was introduced over the years has been forgotten about (Telepathic plugs anyone?).

If you try to imagine the Legion being at the forefront of an era that's already so amazingly advanced beyond ours, it opens up so many story possibilities from the Universe-spanning big stuff to just exploring what a future would look like.

He was really jazzed about it all and it totally made sense to me.

You are far more optimistic than I.

* * *



* * *



I wonder if that's Levitz talking.

* * *

One of the better parts of the Threeboot, for me, was that the rings *did* do all of that (well, okay, not the teleporting!). Flight, communications, translation, life-support fields, could change their costumes to and from civilian clothes, kept you from being tracked and monitored by the gubmint, etc.

Rings that *only* served as communicators and lower powered flight devices (pretty much the equivalent of the rings the latest team has been using!) were being sold as toys to Legion fans to help pay for upkeep and whatever, by the end of the run.

I would much prefer if Legion uniforms were at least a little bit bullet-resistant and energy-dispersant, so that they provided a measure of protection for Legionnaires who lack defensive powers, and if it were explicitly stated at some point that, like 'molecule-thin transsuits,' they have transparent cloth in the future, so that Dream Girl's bare legs and arms and face are as protected as her bikini-clad torso, even if you can't see the ballistic energy-absorbent cloth.

People running into fights in swimwear would make so much more sense if clothing (including protective clothing) could be transparent.

Although I'd prefer is some characters just kept their darn clothes on. Sensor Girl looked awesome when Lightle introduced her. The last thing she needs is to take her mask off, wear a crown and have bare arms and a boob window... The Legion ladies have hardly ever suffered from a lack of stripper-wear. There's no reason *everyone* has to adapt to that style.

Wonder what would happen if someone like Batista approached DC and asked to write the book under a different label under their umbrella? Has anything like that ever been done?

There are a few DC characters who had mini-series or one-shots published by Vertigo back in the day.

Batista's ideas are right on point. One of the big problems with the various Legion series in the last 10 years is that they have not kept up with real life technology advances - let alone the tech of the current day DCU. We are living in a "the future is NOW" environment, so it has be tough to imagine what life will be like 1,000 years from now but that effort must be made.

With the last two Legion series, there's not been much to indicate to the reader that this is happening 1,000 years from now. The story and art seem to scream "outer space" instead of "the future" and could blend in with current day DCU space titles like Green Lantern.

One nice thing in Maguire's issue was that he got creative and tried to make it all look more futuristic.

Exactly. But a writer making an attempt to write a "realistic" future could very well alienate the readers. The readers need to be able to identify. I can identify with 1000 years in the past but with tech and bio moving as fast as it is, I wonder if 1000 years in the future will be physically OR culturally recognizable. We're all going to be mind speaking, sex changing, pasty faced white guys with big heads and almond eyes.

Would there be huge objection to a Legion set 200 years into the future? Or would it just be better for everyone to suspend belief and then settle for tech one step better than Batman's, lol.

You know, I don't care how advanced tech is going to get, Batman would crush it. Because he's Batman.

Although futuristic technology and settings are a selling point, personally it's not THE main point for me. Good stories that highlight the characters I love is more than enough.

I think the lack of technological advancement can be compensated for by exploring more alien worlds and cultures.

Come to think of it, you know what Levitz's past stints as writer had that the recent ones were missing?

Encyclopedia Galactica entries.

I loved those! He'd occasionally mix them up with excerpts from other sources, such as from ancient folk sayings. I loved the issues where he'd bring us somewhere unique like Starhaven or Hykraius or Tharr or Teall.

Yep! I think Levitz was overly influenced by the trend against narration since his last run. Just stick with your strengths, damnit!

The biggest problem with the Legion and most comic books today is the fact that after 50 years (or more) there aren’t that many new stories left to tell. I think what needs to be done if the Legion were to be re-introduced is to go back to the past and re-examine what made them popular to begin with. First, the most obvious thing is the connection to SuperBOY Kal-El. He is what drove the whole super hero club idea. Also, they were not earthbound like the JLA or Teen Titans. That was the biggest difference between their tech and present day tech of the 50’s and 60’s. Space flight. Also, the notion that the large cities of today basically encompassed most of the continents. Tubes to travel THROUGH the earth. Simple stuff, yet intriguing at the same time. The Legion rescued people, responded to or prevented disasters or warded off the odd invasion. They fought some interesting villains, like Mordru, the Fatal Five or Universo, bad guys trying to grab power or control society. The Legion took on characters that the Science Police were unable to handle. That was the basic premise of the Legion. Why not go back to that?
DC has three choices regarding the Legion in my opinion. 1) Go back to the beginning as they did after Zero Hour and cherry pick the best of the Silver Age or Bronze Age stories and rework them to suit modern age sensibilities. 2) Pick up the timeline sometime shortly after the end of the Baxter era with a young adult Legion. 3) Bury them as they did the JSA.
Perhaps the Legion’s time has come and gone but we still have 50 plus years of re-runs to enjoy.
Thanks, the Maritimer

There was an article when Levitz started writing Legion again that he had made the decision not to use Encyclopedia Galactica in his new stories.

That puzzled me because to me it made all the more sense to use that in the current stories since the EG is like the 31st century version of Wiki.

I don't know why Levitz dropped the Encyclopedia Galactica entries either, especially with the popularity of Wiki, that you noted. A lot of fans said this version of Levitz's Legion just didn't "feel" like the original Legion. Perhaps if Levitz had used the EG entries to set the stage for things, that "feel" would have been there. I know I sure missed that element. The EG entries completed the book, and helped us modern readers feel comfortable exploring the 31st century universe.

The EG entries played a big role in letting readers imagine that the 30th century of the Legion was a world unto itself. The rich extended cast and the deep web of varied relationships between characters helped too.

I hate to say it, but I could not disagree with this statement more. This is a series set 1000 years in the future with a cast of over a dozen characters with superpowers. The possibilities of that scenario are endless, and it is a poor writer indeed who couldn't find something new to write about. I see nothing of value in re-telling/re-vamping old storylines for modern readers. That's been done to death in comics.

There are new and interesting stories to tell with the Legion...any version you wish. Just look at some of the stuff we here come up with.

The trick is to make them interesting. Have them honor the past without being a slave to it. In other words, don't totally dis a previous story without reason, and not liking a particular story does not mean you write it out of continuity...unless you have a really good reason and story behind it.

I am working on a fanfic that picks up the 5YL run after Zero Hour. In it, I had a thought about Mekt Ranzz which explained his entire batch of appearances previous to that run, and kept everything in place in regards to that history. There are ways to do things, you just have to have your heart behind it.

There are just over one hundred members of the Legion, Subs, Heroes of Lallor, and Wanderers, counting all the continuities. Plus the Uncanny Amazers of Xanth, and McCauley's workforce.

In addition, there are the unnamed relatives of each of these characters, adding several more hundred; plus non-powered characters, plus super-villains...

Now I know why I picked up Y the Last Man. First few pages of Genesis? Always a good read.

Some people consider the Legion's extensive cast of characters; long, involved and convoluted history; and massive multi-planetary setting, as features, not bugs.

Precisely. It's not like anyone has to use *all* of this stuff!

I'd consider stuff like the Murrans or the Taurus Gang or the Heroes of Lallor to be awesome opportunities, while avoiding stuff I didn't really care for as much (not feeling a burning need to return to Femnaz, or bring back the Weirdo Legionnaire...). Paul himself wrote out some characters, which I'd much rather see happen than a writer writing characters *he doesn't want to use.*

I'd much rather that Phantom Girl have gone on vacation in Bgtzl and been out of contact and missed the last few issues entirely, than have seen her abysmal portrayal here. If this is what happens to characters that the writer didn't want to write (or didn't want to be voted Legion Leader), then fans of Quislet should be jumping for joy that Paul wrote him out early!

Perhaps revisiting the past is not a good idea. However, I don't care how many characters a writer has to play with, they all seem to be repeating themselves. Legion Lost? At least 3 times, twice in the past and once in another galaxy. Robotic or otherwise invasions? Plenty of times. I guess they have to find new ways to tell stories of space pirates/raiders, super rich magnates trying to take over the world or planet wide mind control epidemics. There's only so many ways the Legion can fight the Legion of Super-Villains or the Fatal 5. Really, the only truly interesting stories to be told would be character relationships within the group, hook-ups, break-ups, cheating, rivalries, etc.

Personally, I think the Legion as we knew it is done. Over.

DC felt the need to reboot their entire universe and sever all ties with their past. I saw no need for it and felt left behind. I kept buying the Legion out of 50 years of loyalty. But now I'm finished with them and I almost believe it was by design to eliminate the boomer generation from the equation. I've even stopped buying the DVD adaptations of their stories now that they have done Flashpoint and will lead to the New 52. No thanks.

Another alternative would be to take a "Firefly"-like approach; not every planet that you see is going to have all of the futuristic bright sparkly qualities as the next. Rimbor would probably be at the lower end, tech-wise, from Colu, which would probably be very tech-heavy. Would have made for an interesting story along the way, too.

New Legionnaire on the block... from a tech-backward planet but one resource-rich (admitted to the UP to help it deal with it's economics and protect it from those who would exploit it, etc, etc)... First time in the big city of quark relay tech and trying out for a team who all wear flight rings...

Sort of an everyman character that we could relate to from the 21st century point of view.

Now tell me that there are no more new stories to write.

I can understand that maybe you're tired of all the ups and downs the Legion has been through these years. Maybe you're jaded by the terrible flop that was this last Fatal Five story. I disagree though, that there are no stories left to tell - a skilled writer could tell five stories with the same five Legionnaires fight the same five-member Fatal Five, and highlight different aspects of the character relationships every time. The relationships are what you cited as the only interesting stories, after all.

Off the top of my head -

1) Murder mystery. Five Legionnaires split into a trio and a duo and search for clues.

2) Fatal Five challenge the Legionnaires to an all-out brawl.

3) Fatal Five lead a revolution which the Legionnaires have to undermine.

4) Crazy treasure hunt - the Legionnaires have to beat the 5 to an arcane artifact/powerful weapon on a weird new world.

5) Let's go political - the Legionnaires suspect the 5 are secretly pulling the strings of a puppet politician up for re-election on a rich planet.

Just saying, I don't think we should lose hope. Any writer who puts in enough time and effort could come up with a whole lot of new ideas.

Just read #23 ... AND I TOTALLY LIKED IT.

First of all ... this is only my second actual issue read of this boot, but bear with me.

It had some problems but for the most part the characters sounded like they should and it is a long time dream of mine to see them drawn by KM, even in this reduced capacity.

We got to see several different members touched on.

I have loads of questions that remain unanswered ... like why is Jeckie's hair not platinum? and is it really such a big deal to not have Dirk's body yet? and Brainiac 5 comes off hysterical and I don't really care if the blame the Fatal Five on him or not.

Did Tasmia and Mon get back together and/or why is she taking his body then?

I liked Gigi breaking the news to them instead of a new character.

Regarding the epilogues, I thought they were good except I don't need to know if this is the Earth 2 future or not ... I wish Dreamy's epilogue had gone last and instead of saying it seemed like it was all a *bad dream* she said it was a *great* dream.

Of course the founders get the last word.

Also Val what?

overall, I guess Tinya got the shortest of a bunch of short straws ... and I find it really hard to believe the Legion would just give up because they were supposed to yet leave us with a big splash page about them living on.

uh ... not really, you're all retiring like robots because the UP said you should.

A better ending would be to have a one page new crisis or alarm ... with Tinya leading a small band of LSH members ... truly a story that never ends.

Well, apart from the wonderful artwork - the kind of artwork I firmly believe would have kept the Legion alive much longer - I was not very happy with this last issue.

It was rather fading away, not burning out, it was not very believable (why exactly did they say the Legion was disbanded???) and for a final issue, it left too much dangling (Where is Phantom Girl? Sun Boy dead? Where have the Academy Kids suddenly gone who played such a big part in this run?).

I hated the classic Legion go during Zero Hour, but hey, they went down with a bang, gave me some tears in my eyes back then. This? No feelings at all.

One question I really would like to get an answer to is... why is Karate Kid alive? Didn't he die during Countdown? What's the official statement about Val??

Well the sales figures are out for Legion #23...
http://www.icv2.com/articles/markets/26668.html

You can tell the Legion had an actual fanbase, because it didn't completely tank like other DC final issues this month.

How interesting that it ranked higher than some other DC titles that are in no danger of "cancellation due to low sales".

Maybe because of Kevin Maguire...maybe because of the 'final issue' status...

Or maybe DC made (yet another) bone-headed mistake.

Or all three?

But, I hear you ask, "Reboot, what's that done to the sales graph?" Join me over in the "Legion sales still sliding" thread to find out

[Here's a hint: The dead cat didn't bounce. It was the lowest-selling issue of Levitz's entire tenure.]


Don't believe that. Any New 52 titles lower than Legion (exc. reorders/second prints!) will get cut in the next round.

Can't help but feel that the next few Legion issues would have focused on Phantom Girl and her predicament. Paul Levitz made her the star in the six issue Secret Origins run, and I bet he had something good in mind for her here.

Tharok referring to her as the 'only one who could stop him' or whatever hints at that.

The Secret Origins appearance gave her the Kitty Pryde power of disrupting machinery she passed through, so it's possible that she would be able to phase through Tharok and disrupt his new energy form (and his connection to whatever quark-relay-disrupting-tech he's using).

On the one hand, I would have preferred her to come back and save the day.

On the other hand, I don't like the idea that she has been retconned to have Kitty Pryde's powers, just as Timber Wolf has been retconned to be more like Wolverine, when these characters predate those X-folk. (Ditto Titansfall, with Imra seeming to use telekinesis, as if she was a blonde Jean Grey.)

On the gripping hand, no amount of Tinya coming back and saving the day would have excused the atrocious treatment of her freaking out after Dirk's death and complaining how it made her look bad as a leader, and then giving up and phasing away. There's just no coming back from that, and I don't blame the character of Tinya at all, since it was stone cold terrible writing.

If this is how Paul deals with characters he doesn't like becoming leader, I should have voted for someone I loathe, assuming there was such a Legionnaire. (Perhaps Atmos?)

Re the phasing/disruption powers, I don't mind if Tinya was written tpo have DEVELOPED the powers through training. IIRC, in the Action story where the Legionnaires fight Earth-Man and his Justice League, Tinya hurts Earth-Man by phasing her arm through him - not something I've seen her do before. Postboot Tinya could also disrupt machinery if she wished.

Her crying and phasing away was complete and utter character assassination. The Tinya we know and love would have tried to help the aliens living on the Giant, no matter that they did eat Dirk's corpse. I completely agree with you that her saving the day would not have erased that at all.

That might have been palatable (and seemed less like Levitz had just plain forgotten that the Legionnaires were not in fact exactly like the X-Men who had come later), and yet, in the Secret Origins story, she's talking about how she can do that in her first appearance (talking to those three secret intelligence people). It seemed to be intended as 'always was' in this nu/old/whatever boot.

I'd prefer, before adding new powers (or new aspects to an old power), a character be shown using the power they have creatively. Even the Threeboot, few people's favorite, mentioned that she could phase into someone and solidify just enough of herself to 'punch them in the kidney.' That sounds pretty darn effective, and it would represent training and skill and clever use of her own power, not a brand new sub-power.



Yeah. There was just no defense for that entire bit. Tinya was completely out of character, and Invisible Jacques having to try and talk her down while she's having her bout of hysteria and selfishness was just painfully bad characterization.

The whole thing made little sense, like entirely too much of this past few years attempts at storytelling. Those little aliens had an entire town built out of wood and thatch, despite there being no trees or plants on the giant (and presumably being the descendants of crashed spacefaring aliens!). Some of the aliens somehow got behind the Legionnaires to grab Dirk's body, hustled right past them carrying it like a grisly football trophy, and then ahead of them to their town, and then ate it, faster than the Legionnaires could get from the ship to their town, despite moving in that direction with other aliens. Did Phantom Girl's nervous breakdown take that long? And did it distract her teammates enough that they failed to see the little aliens walking right by them with Sun Boy's body?

Eh. In my head, assuming this ever happened, the other Legionnaires didn't notice that the bones were not human, and that the tattered bits of Sun Boy's shirt had been left near the burn-pile to be disposed off after little alien witch doctors absconded with his not-quite-dead body and began trying to fix him up... He'll wake up shirtless, with a teensy little bump on his forehead, surrounded by not-incredibly-hot nurses offering him their local specialty, braised rack of looks-human-but-isn't-ribs, wondering what happened after the cruiser crashed.

I agree with you on the "natural development of a power" rather than magically gaining new powers. One of the most satisfying moments Preboot was when Polar Boy showed he had gained enough control over his power to join the Legion

And I am already adopting YOUR version of events as my own personal canon. So Dirk is alive, just lost in space!

I'll add another - when Thom was buried alive in the rubble of Legion HQ, he had the presence of mind to use his powers on himself. He's still alive, just buried in the rubble until someone can find him.

Ta-da!

If this Thom is supposed to be the same Thom who was back in the 21st century with the JSA recently (which he very much seemed to be, since he had to be de-crazified and stuff), then he should be able to manipulate gravity like he did with the JSA, not just 'draw mass from the stars to make things super-heavy,' allowing him to slow the falling debris, or even whip up a wormhole to 'fall' away from the falling debris and appear somewhere else...

After the nuBoot, Thom's history in the 21st century (and presence in the JSA of Earth 1) has been rebooted out of existence, and yet, he was still handicapped from those events, so I really have no idea how much or little of that continuities changes were still 'sticking' with him.

I'm rarely a fan of comic book characters dying, but the deaths of Dirk and Thom, in particular, were just shock value deaths. Neither of them died like Ferro Lad or Karate Kid, making a difference or saving a world or whatever. They died like chumps, and, more or less, off-panel (as did that dupe of Luornu's). It seems pretty cheap to present a death purely for shock value, and then wuss out and not even show it / leave it unclear. If it's all cheap sensationalism, at least own up to the sensationalism and *show it.* (And not leave fans wondering for months if Thom survived somehow.)

Just sloppy.

Yes, deaths can be shocking and senseless and leave all sorts of things unsaid and unresolved, but that's real life, not a narrative that's being scripted as a serial storyline. Truth is always going to be stranger than fiction, because fiction *is supposed to make sense.* Attempting to bring that sort of 'gritty realism' into a comic book isn't 'edgy' (and, arguably, never was), it's a narrative failure as a writer.

If we wanted tales of shocking un-scripted events that don't make any sense and lack any sort of deeper meaning or narrative structure or consistent characterization or deliberate plotting or satisfying conclusion, that's what the news is for.

Plus, when the characters who die are heroes/main characters of the series, and the series isn't meant to be a satire/parody/humor series, it's just plain disrespectful to kill characters that way!

Word! None of these alleged deaths, be it Thom, Dirk or Tinya, was written in a way that would make it noteworthy - like, for example, Ferro Lad or Karate Kid. Well, of course Karate Kid weas suddenly alive again. Still don't know why that was but hey, it was just one further element to not take these last few issues for serious at all. It was rather like a bad dream, which was a pity cause at the beginning of the last storyline, I really thought this could be interesting...

One take on PG's running away is that when she did it she may have thought it was a chance of saving the local inhabitants. At the point she phased away her team was gone and the destruction she seemed to be centered on getting her.

Okay, sorry to re-hash a ten day old sub-thread, but I'd been too busy to reply until now, but I just HAVE to say this, and here is better than saying it to the wall or my cat:

The LSH was SOOOOooo easy to cash in on, and cash in on big, it isn't even funny!!!!

1) Super-heroes are wildly popular now, at an all-time maximum popularity, though it remains to be seen if they saturate.

2) This was 1000 years in the future...anything you could do for "Star Trek" you could do for the LSH ... infinite stories available from that alone.

3) Tween/teen angst and romance.... How popular was/is Twilight? Harry Potter? Hunger Games? The WB? The LSH should have been/could have been right there!!

4) Supplementing all of the above, as already brought up, LOTS of characters to play with to accentuate #3 and #2.

Unfortunately, the original poster had sort of a point... they *appeared* to run out of stories... inex-fragging-plicably!!!

Pathetic! Short-sighted! Incompetent! The Legion should be a veritable goldmine, it could be way more popular than anything out there if done right!

But DC never gave it a chance for this. Measured it only in the context of the comic-buying community.

Well, DC can @%$@^&#$ my @#$&#*&@% !!! I hope they all get fired and wind up homeless and have to eat &#^@&@ out of gutter!

Well, at least the ones responsible for the decision to cancel, anyway.

and BTW ... I, for one, think we should not go so gently into that good night.

The problem with DC 'running out of stories' for the Legion is, IMO, a factor of there not being a lot of writers working for DC who *want* to write the Legion, or a book set 1000 years in the future, with such a dense cast and even denser set of supporting characters and supporting mythology, and those few that do, are older and / or somewhat burned out on the Legion.

Like most people who've written Legion fanfic, I've noticed that one paralyzing 'problem' with writing for the Legion is that there's just so darn many stories to be told, that you get overwhelmed just trying to focus on one.

Almost every Legionnaire has stories left untold. Think of how many times Batman or Spider-Man or Iron Man's starting origins have been retold, and tweaked, and made fresh and new again. Tired of stories about Universo or the Fatal Five and feel that maybe they have been overused? You must be *crazy* tired of stories about the Joker or Lex Luthor, who have been trotted back out and re-used *dozens* of more times (without DC feeling like they've 'run out of Joker stories' or 'run out of Luthor stories')!

What do we *really* know about Bgtzl? Is it a small pocket dimension like Marzal or Themiscrya, an entire 'counter-Earth,' or an entire solar system / galaxy / *universe* unto itself?

What do we really know about the source of Shadow Lass's powers? Is there a hungry dark entity at the center of Talokk VIII that Shady is feeding everytime she uses her powers to 'negate' light? Does the use of her powers instead actually transfer energy from her present location to the heart of her homeworld, helping to sustain the reactions that keep it warm (in the same disproportionate way that, in the DCU, enough sunlight to power a watch can allow a Kryptonian to lift a battleship)?

Are there Atlanteans and Amazons and Thanagarians and Tamaraneans and Spider Guilders in the future, and, much more importantly, are they *wildly* different than they were in the 20th and 21st centuries (unlike the Khunds and Dominators and Daxamites, who seem to have been frozen in stasis for 1000 years, and unable to develop or change or grow in any way)?

Why is Rimbor the way it is? Is it the UP equivalent of China's 'free economic zones' or Hong Kong, allowed to kind of go it's own way because, if there's going to be a black market 'hell,' it might as well be on Rimbor and not spread across every world of the UP? Or is Rimbor not actually a member world, just a world that happens to reside smack dab in the middle of a bunch of other UP signatory worlds, and is, like some Caribbean islands or reservation casinos, sort of a tax haven and place to go to enjoy stuff you can't legally get on your home planet?

'No stories left to tell' is crazytalk. We know almost nothing about the history of Starhaven, or why some of them have wings, and we've had fifty consecutive stories about an eccentric rich dude who dresses up like a Bat and punches people, sometimes with a half-dozen titles devoted to that same character every month.

DC will 'run out of stories to tell' about Batman and Gotham *decades* before they 'run out of stories to tell' about the dozens of Legionnaires and their rich and mostly undeveloped background universe.

Overall, it was a decent respectful send off for this run, considering it was unplanned.

It’s often a comics trend to tear everything down, in place of more subtle conflict, in an attempt to show what the characters stand for. Although the Legion usually manages to give some hope along with the destruction, it wouldn’t be the first time that a creative move or a cancellation has simply left readers with nothing more than the destruction of characters they like.

In this run we’ve seen Morgna & Kallor die and Wazzo act strangely out of character. Considering it’s the last issue, it’s a little bit surprising to say that Kallor’s body was in it’s grave.

But death doesn’t hold you back in comics. Just ask Val Armorr. Back yet again, and probably already counting down to a future Giffen death plot. Except I can’t imagine it being anything less than Projectra’s illusion powers, working in the same way as Saturn Girl did when she created a phantom Phantom Girl back in Abnett & Lanning’s run.

The quark relay disaster also reminded me of a few of DnA’s threats. But then, they had reminded me of the aftermath of Levitz’s Magic Wars. Destruction and hope.

With too may loose plot threads to deal with, the last issue salvage operation is done in broad strokes – Durgo & Taine, Nal, Jeckie and Val and the founding three.

Each of the farewell pages is heavy with awareness of the fickleness of DC mandates and their infinity of retcons, reboots and shifting desperate crisis events in the quest for dwindling sales. For Nura Nal it’s a dream. For Taine & Durgo it’s multiple worlds and for Projectra it’s that sinking feeling of changing realities.

Saturn Girl repeats for all of the above in the closing pages. It’s a shame a whole page was spent showing Taine bounce around with a bit of shirt. A panel or two would have been fine. It would cemented the Legion in Earth-2 just as much and would have allowed for some closure for more of the cast.

But perhaps that extra emphasis was needed to make it clear that this was a Legion that could stay intact without a complete reboot. Levitz drawing a protective circle in the multiverse.

It’s already been posted that having Levitz has also left thing much as they were at the end of his earlier run. Technology fails, Mon-El near death and the Legion having to rally to beat their foes. But where that last run left what looked to bring heroes back from their worlds to united Legion, this one breaks the group apart.

We get Earth in ruins, but a driven Brainiac 5 revealing a glimpse of what future issues might have brought. Hope and destruction. Already his plans have gone awry. Interestingly the man with endless contingencies is left pleading with others to bring his plans back. Not even Brainiac can cope with cancellation.

Maguire’s art was lovely as always. By the time I read the issue he had already been booted from the Legion’s replacement title in one of those endless shifts of DC mandate.

Hopefully, it won’t be too long before they shift again and the real Legion makes it’s return.

-LLL

“When the last individual of a race of living beings breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again.” -- William Beeb

This is how I feel about the Legion of Super-Heroes.

Fortunately, at DC, another heaven and another earth passes about every ten years.


Still, I doubt that I will be around to see it.

Hopefully, that's because you just won't be reading DC. Rather than because you're crossing the globe in your secret space station, where you lie in an iron lung reading the Legion to preserve your failing health.

That would be an acceptable explanation. Too bad Levitz didn't make it explicit!

In any case, the Legion will be kept alive whether or not it is being published

In an earlier issue, when being chased around by a Daxamite, Phantom Girl just phased into the ground. While both events aren't quite how I see her reacting, I don't know why she just didn't phase into the Giant.

That thought randomly occurred to me the other day! Given how single-minded it was being and how the Legionnaires seem to be more blasé about killing these days, it might even have been a way to make it dig through itself to get her and end the threat!

Did Phantom Girl not have some sort of disruption thing, a la Kitty Pryde, shown in one version? Not one I'm keen on actually, since it's such a clear swipe

(unless someone shows an old Adventure issue where it happens. Like the one that shows her enhanced powers to be making others Phantoms)

But yeah, at the very least take herself and possibly the locals out of harms way. Perhaps learn a bit about what makes the thing tick - perhaps find how Tharok is controlling it. That sort of thing.

Ooh, that's genius, right there! I could see that occurring to her as she's phasing to get away from it. "This creature is so single-minded that it's willing to tear itself apart to get to me... Which gives me an idea!"



In the recent Adventure retelling of the Legion's first days, she told the intelligence overseers working for the UP that she could probably phase through and disrupt their door, if she wanted to, and, *I think* she was shown using her power to disrupt a robot later in the same revamp.

Also, not a fan. She's Tinya, not Kitty Pryde. There are plenty of ways a person able to become fully or selectively intangible, move interspatially, and even enter the Phantom Zone (and therefore move at great speed across normal space invisibly and incorporeally), could be super-useful, without having to borrow Kitty's very specific and not at all intangibility-related power to disrupt machinery.

I'd avoid tapping into the old 'fourth-dimensional' well, 'though, because Tinya's never been artistically depicted as moving *around* objects in a fourth dimension, but always been showing ghosting through them intangibly. (Plus, if Tinya was fourth-dimensional, she'd likely be ridiculously super-strong and invulnerable, as well, since three-dimensional matter and beings would be super-flimsy sheets of tissue paper, to her!)

A 4D character might be an awesomely powerful and, compared to all the Krypto-clones, unique hero, but I'm not sure I'd want to change Tinya that much. (That would have been a great change-up for the Threeboot, 'though!)

I will chime in on the Tinya =/= Kitty Pryde thing. It's just kind of lazy, the same way Timber Wolf is now Wolverine-Lite and Blok is just the Thing (wanting to be "normal" so he can shag Mysa).

Nor am I a fan of Tinya having 4D strength, but 4D perceptions would be okay! Not to the occasionally plot-breaking extent of Sensor Girl, but maybe just having an awareness of things around her and internally that nobody (except Brainy & maybe Dreamy or Imra) quite understands, because it's not x-ray vision or penetra-vision, but something they can't define in a 3D world. It would explain how she always knows how to disable any kind of technology she phases through when she's never really shown any engineering/technical aptitude, and it would explain how she can navigate through solid objects (which further differentiates her from Kitty, who has been shown to be travelling blind whenever she phases through something light can't penetrate).

I agree completely regarding Sensor Girl. For someone not in the main group she appears to the UP council to show them live events of what's happening to Brainy & Dream Girl at the talons of the Domninion. It pretty much allows the others to save the day.

Then again, to take the Promethean Giant from Tharok's control. Saving the day there, although not in time for Phantom Girl to stay around.

I'm still not sure I'm quite up to date on how many Karate Kid's there have been and how many have been resurrected. Who's the Kid at the Academy that Projectra was mooning over?

I don't think it was ever clear whether that was a new person, a reincarnation or a projection of her subconscious. Given the alteration to her powers, and the nebulous squiffy powers that come with 'seen through the illusion of...' could result in (such as 'I have seen through the illusion of death' or 'I have seen through the illusion that is linear time') it could even have been a real Val, somehow snatched away from the moment of his death, or plucked from an alternate timeline or parallel dimension or something.

The funky thing about Projectra's old powers, is that, if she could make an illusion of fire that felt hot to the viewers, either by affecting their minds to feel pain and heat (as the Threeboot Projectra did) or perhaps by generating at least a little bit of heat the same way she seems to be able to generate light and sound (in a more 'creates holograms' sense of non-psychic illusion), then she could create an 'illusion' of Val that would be almost as effective as the real Val, since everybody punched by illusion Val would *feel* like they'd been punched. He wouldn't be able to lift anything significant, or throw people around with judo, but should be able to 'cause pain' or create the sensation of impact, to distract foes and perhaps even incapacitate foes who would normally be vulnerable to his human level strength and martial arts pressure points stuff.

A surreal sort of retcon might be that Val *never existed,* and was a creation of Projectra all the time, and that the Shooter Four were actually always the 'Shooter Three,' with Projectra unconsciously (at first) projecting him. Under her influence, Superboy threw himself around, at Val's tryouts, and other times when Val seemed to physically interact with others, it was all in their heads!

In any event, I don't know enough about how classic Projectra's illusions worked. If they were purely psychic (like Threeboot Projectra), then that sort of thing would be quite do-able. If she instead creates holographic constructs of light and sound (and force?), then it works very differently, and she'd have to 'ramp up' to being able to create hard-light constructs of a sort (which would be a logical development, since she's already manifesting and manipulating both energy and matter just to create light and sound), to make a physically effective 'illusory person.'

Finally read 23 today. The art was lovely but the story was just dull unfortunately. Too many dangling plots left hanging, too few Legionnaires shown, too much Brainiac 5. Oh well.

Out with a whimper not a bang unfortunately.

Or why not simply phase in both instances? If nothing can touch her, why bother to hide?

Exactly so. why throw away the tactics of a lifetime?*

*probably conveniently forgetting all the time she's been knocked unconscious.

Let's see, walked through a servant of darkness and was overcome with cold...

It's weird. Thanks to my friendly local library system, I've finally read the complete Levitz Retroboot. And unlike most of the reactions in this thread to LSH v7 #23, I actually thought it was Levitz's best Retroboot issue, a (mostly) satisfying wrap-up, and a high note upon which to leave the Legion.

Of course, a lot of it had to do with Kevin Maguire's FANTABULOUS art. I liked a fair amount of his stuff in the past (even though he'd often work with writers I didn't like), but THIS...was just astonishing to me!! The ladies of the Legion hadn't looked so beautiful since Greg LaRocque hit his Legion peak, circa Baxter #25-38 (yeah, as putrid as I find the scripts for the Death of Superboy event, and as much as I hate the damage it did to the Legion, LaRocque's (and Byrne's) art was a feast for the eyes.) The men looked quite handsome as well, and Maguire's layouts were unobstrusive yet smooth and well-paced.

I especially liked that Levitz made Duplicate Girl come off so good, as the keeper of Brainy's biggest skeleton...in the entire Braniac Legacy's closet, arguably. Considering what a self-centered, foolhardy drip Levitz wrote her as during the Baxter era (IMHO), I found this quite refreshing.

Yes, there were a lot of loose ends, but I look at it as a wealth of possibilities for Levitz's successor (and, of course, for fanfic writers -- tee-hee.) And the Earth-2 nonsense...eh, any writer worth of her or his salt could easily turn it into a red herring, and it's probably irrelevant post-Convergence anyway.

Now, *getting* to this dawn-after-the-darkest-hour finale, *that* was a slog, especially the LSH v6 issues. Saturn Queen was too superficial and too OTT for my taste, the pace was glacial, the nods to continuity having none of the juice that they had during the Baxter era, the Green Lantern crap was clearly shoehorned in (although even that could be made to work as foreshadowing for a grandiose cosmic storyline), and I didn't shed a single tear for Earth Man, whose presence screamed editorial fiat even more than the GL garbage...I do confess that I liked Tinya's imitation of Tasmia's in-defense-of-Earth-Man posturing and facial expressions, but a couple good panels couldn't even come close to redeeming LSH v6.

Levitz seemed to be aware of v6's shortcomings, and v7 got off to a much more promising start (I especially liked Dragonwing joining the team -- being a contrary sort, she was my favorite of the Legion newbies, even though I can see from reading assorted threads in this forum that she was a lot of posters' least favorite.) Unfortunately, it quickly got bogged down with the turgid, by-the-numbers Durlan/Dominator/Daxamite doo-doo. And just when Levitz finally seemed to shake off all the cobwebs when he focused on Glorith and her emerging time powers, it's obvious that editorial considered this development too little too late to save the book in the short run.

So, as we all know, the Giffenator was brought in, and while he only worked on approximately 1.80 issues, the shockwaves of his intrusion turned a mediocre book into something much, much worse. The whole Tharok-destroys-the-galaxy-arc (aka Magic Wars 2: Digital Boogaloo) was so relentlessly, numbingly violent, so full of WTF character moments, and so hollow at its core, that it was nothing less than Michael Bay directing a Star Wars sequel (Gods forbid!! But that was the best metaphor I could come up with.)

In the end, yeah, the Retroboot was bland and dull at best, tediously ham-fisted and mean-spirited at worst, but it's still far from my least favorite take on the Legion. Here, for what it's worth, is my ranking of all the eras to date:

1. Levitz/Lightle/LaRocque Baxter
2. Pre-DnA Postboot
3. Adventure (in its entirety)
4. DnA
5. Levitz Retroboot
6. Action/Superboy/S&LSH/LSH
7. Johns/Meltzer Retroboot
8. Levitz/Giffen LSH and Levitz/Giffen late-in-the-run Baxter
9. TMK through End of an Era
10. Threeboot (in its entirety)

Oh yes, that was one of my least favorite parts of the post-Johns, Legion-of-Three-Worlds-era interpretation of Saturn Queen, a wide-eyed worshpipful fangirl over Superboy Prime, turned into a wide-eyed fanatical worshipper of this blue flame baby thing. Ugh. This version of Eve Aries was just insultingly bad, IMO.

After the amazing Eve Aries of the Absolute Power arc of Superman/Batman 14-18, and who later 'adopted' Ultraman during the Supergirl (vol 5) series, this version was just a sad follower, desperately looking for a new thing to worship.



I was a big fan of her awesome visual. The translucent cape with dragon motif, the tight braids, the Marilyn Manson-esque lack of eyebrows. That she was sassy and outspoken just added to the charm, for me, since the Legion's always had quieter more easy-going sorts like Mon and Gim, and people who rub others the wrong way like Drake and Dawny. On a team with 25-ish members, there's room for all sorts of personality types!

Grava, on the other hand. Oy. Right up there with Quislet, for Legionnaires that other people love, and I just don't get.

Still, on a team with 25-ish members, there's *also* room for a few characters that weren't designed to appeal to *ME* specifically.

#23. The issue that brought me to Legion World.

I just reread it at the weekend (for the same reasons as Fanfic Lady), and it's still a very good issue.

Like Fanfic Lady, Maguire's art is always going to add plenty of points. But Levtiz did well to wrap things up before the end and give a few of the core couples poignant send off moments.

I agree Saturn Girl was wasted in v6, and that Levitz had quite a few subplot missteps in a book of reduced pages, such as Lightning Lord's brother, Mon El as a leader/lantern. But it did continue into v7 with the annoying jostling for leadership between Mon-El, Brainy and Cos.

Not to mention the Glorith subplot. It probably looked better on the drawing board, building up to a reveal of her temporal powers. But because the way the series went, it just meant she didn't escape a lab for a year as the readers were gradually shown something that they could have worked out from her name.

I also grew to quite like Dragonwing. It's good to see someone work hard at their powers, knowing the gap she has to make up, while still having a strong sense of self and an attitude.

To be fair to Levitz, he did integrate the new guys well. They all had subplots, without resorting to the Mary Sueing of Harmonia and Earth Man from v6.

Wow. Thanks, guys!!

That's what I love about Legion World -- the Legion mythos is so dense and multifaceted that people can agree on X, Y, and Z while disagreeing on A, B, and C, and it's all in an atmosphere of celebration and mutual respect and pleasant surprises.

Set, I'm with you on Grava. I am definitely going to leave that loose end unresolved. Good riddance to a saccharine bubble-brain. Like, totally. (I do love Quislet, though, so be forewarned I am bringing him back in my fanfic.)

Thoth, I'd forgotten that this was issue that brought you to this community. Even more reason to love it!! And, yes, Chuck & Luornu and Imra & Garth (and also...uh...what's-his-face, the one who disrespects women who don't fawn over him unquestioningly. Proof that three's a crowd. But I digress. ) I also loved the dignified send-offs for Projectra (but I'll bring her back -- though as a mad queen, or an anti-heroine, or a cosmic visionary, even I'm not 100% sure yet) and Nura (who, like I said in the Brainy's Legion thread, I don't plan to bring back even though j'adore her, because I think her story has been well-and-truly told in its entirety.)

And, of course, YAY Dragonwing!!