I'd forgotten what exactly his power was. Thanks, EDE.

In the Threeboot, P.L.'s undoing was Shrinking Violet literally bursting from his body in the grand tradition of *Alien*.

Makes me wonder: what would've happened to Violet if he'd known she was there beforehand, and he'd caused her to forget his existence.

I mean... it's like he's a massive setup for jokes about what a forgettable villain he is!

In the Threeboot, P.L.'s undoing was Shrinking Violet literally bursting from his body in the grand tradition of *Alien*.

Oh goodness, no offence but now I?m glad I didn?t read that issue. The threeboot always seemed a little to edgy for me. I like the adventure and story of the original and the 90?s/early 00?s reboot over the darker stuff that came after.

Oh goodness, no offence but now I?m glad I didn?t read that issue. The threeboot always seemed a little to edgy for me. I like the adventure and story of the original and the 90?s/early 00?s reboot over the darker stuff that came after.

Thanks, and I have got to say despite being young and the new girl you, Invisible Brainiac, and Ann Hebistand have been so kind and helpful to me, so far it has been really nice getting to know you guys.

Oh goodness, no offence but now I?m glad I didn?t read that issue. The threeboot always seemed a little to edgy for me. I like the adventure and story of the original and the 90?s/early 00?s reboot over the darker stuff that came after.

Thanks, and I have got to say despite being young and the new girl you, Invisible Brainiac, and Ann Hebistand have been so kind and helpful to me, so far it has been really nice getting to know you guys.

My advice is: go to the library and get those first two trades like I did. I wasn't wild about everything Waid tried to do. I also bailed before the inevitable later stories roped into Big Event-Crossovers and so on. (The endless succession of those after the success of *Crisis* and *Secret Wars* were what killed my love for the genre in the first place.) BUT- he genuinely went for different ideas and a different tone. You could argue that with Kitson's style of art to help along, he genuinely succeeded at times in amalgamating the shiny sweetness of earlier incarnations and the darker, sadder vibe of 5YL. I'd say some of it's worth at least one read just for that.

The threeboot is definitely a mixed bag. I'm not sure I would describe it as "darker" or "edgier" than DnA's run, though.

A couple of the early issues were really good, and Tony Bedard's brief arc between the Waid/Kitson run and the Shooter run was really solid, imo.

I never really understood why they made the threeboot in the first place, to be honest. With the Lightning Saga happening in the rest of DC and Lo3W soon after, it seemed an odd choice. I want to say that I heard Waid had no idea that whole story was even going to happen. But looking back it seemed like a weird kind of experiment just to alter the character relationships just because. In fact, in some ways it seems like the Bendis Legion is a similar echo of the threeboot.

I suspect part of the reason for the threeboot's sharp drop off in quality after the first few issues (imo) is that Waid starts getting wind of Johns's plans to introduce his own version of the Legion. Maybe if Waid's version had been the huge hit that he predicted before its launch ("It's going to be DC's #1 book!"), things would have gone differently.

That's odd....my memory says the Lightning Saga, etc. happened around Shooter's Threeboot run. Am I totally wrong?

So yes Waid quits right around the time Lightning Saga starts. Then again Johns must have had this in the plan for a while since Trident who turns out to be Karate Kid has been appearing since JLA #1 some months earlier. As GL says it would be interesting to hear Waid's perspective, although we all tend too remember things differently as the years pass so his memory most likely differs form others around the same time.

BM: Was the LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES a difficult property to tackle given the numerous incarnations and histories involved with the team even though you essentially relaunched the book? Was this a book you had always had your sights on?

MW: I'd actually already written it for a while back in '94. And next to Superman, it's always been my favorite longtime DC property. Paul Levitz is the only person I'll allow is a bigger lifelong fan of the Legion than I am. I love everything about their history and know it better than I know my own family's. Problem was, that history was badly broken. CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS and the John Byrne SUPERMAN reboot and a few other storylines had really wrecked the Legion's continuity beyond repair, and no matter how fast we ran around trying to patch the raft, some other ripple in DC continuity was blowing another hole in it, to the point where Legion history seemed like nothing BUT hasty patches.

The absolute, irrefutable reality was that by the early 2000s, new-reader perception of the Legion was that it was an impenetrable read full of mismatched history that made no sense. You can argue all you like that this perception wasn't fair or accurate, if you're so inclined, but it didn't matter. That was the series' reputation, and it hardened around the characters like cement. We couldn't give that book away no matter how good it actually was. In fact, it's forgotten, but the last time it was relaunched around about 2000 (as THE LEGION by Abnett and Lanning), you could not have asked for a greater promotional push. Wizard Magazine promoted it with giveaways, and they NEVER promote DC. Ads were everywhere, retailer incentives were created...and it was still pretty well D.O.A.

So in 2005, I was asked if I wanted to come aboard, and I felt there were only two ways to go--either try to get back to Silver Age continuity, which was flatly impossible in part because of the ongoing litigation between the Siegel estate and DC over who owned Superboy--or plant a giant flag that said, "Everything starts fresh here, it's all new, it's a total reboot and we're all on the same page, readers and creators." I chose the latter path, for good or ill. Barry Kitson and I worked out their entire world, including origin material you'll never see, and (at the suggestion of writer Tom Peyer) rethought the Legion as less of a super-team and more of a political movement. And we got some mileage out of it, and I like what we did.

But now we're back to what I was saying before--how liquid DC continuity was at the moment. While we were busting our asses to rebuild the franchise (and getting periodic fan notes from Paul Levitz, which were gold to me), a whole different editorial office was allowing Brad Meltzer to undo absolutely all our hard work for one of his JLA stories, which (he'd been told) could star the 1980s Legion, as if ours never existed. I don't blame Brad at all, but boy, was that mismanaged on all levels--because it was deliberately kept secret from us until it was on the verge of being printed. I would have JUMPED at the chance to play along somehow, thus strengthening a new Legion series that were on about issue four or five of, rather than sending a message that our Legion was just some sort of aberrant fan-fiction. (Yes, I'm still pissed.) Barry and I were dealt with in unbelievable bad faith, which I could have endured, but it wasn't just about Barry and me; it made DC as a whole just look stupid and uncoordinated, and I still love DC enough to hate when that happens.

Eventually, long after Barry and I finished our run, Superboy was returned to DC and Geoff Johns now has the opportunity to re-re-re-relaunch the Legion as its Silver Age incarnation, and more power to him. On the one hand, I wish we'd had that chance, but the timing wasn't right and it wasn't in the stars. On the other hand, I have no regrets because I have to work extra-hard sometimes to convince some readers that I'd much rather move forward than backward.

That being said, Shooter says his run does not tie directly into Geoff Johns' upcoming Legion story in "Action Comics," which will feature the team's three founding members, nor will it touch on "Lightning Saga" or "Final Crisis," for that matter.

"Because 'The Legion of Super-Heroes' is 1,000 years in the future, and, in a way, its own little universe , the book isn't as involved with the big crossover stories as most other titles, though the effects will be felt," explained Shooter. "We haven't really tied-in with the 'Lightning Saga' or 'Action Comics' much, but thanks to on-the-ball editor Mike Marts, we've coordinated with them pretty well, I think."

Shooter says the Legion having their own corner of DCU to protect is part of the team's strength, but the tangential line connecting the team to its premier players defines the Legion, as well. "The Legion of Superheroes is as limitless as tomorrow," Shooter declared. "We have a little corner of the DC Universe pretty much to ourselves. Therefore, we can keep our continuity tight and our world consistent. We have all the advantages of being part of the same mythos that contains Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, et al, but very little of the burden."

Also, Geoff has DC editorial behind him. We did not. We had to get sandbagged by the goddamned "Lightning Saga" in JLA that, no fault of writer Brad Meltzer's, was a total surprise to us and made us look like idiots.

Shooter says the Legion having their own corner of DCU to protect is part of the team's strength, but the tangential line connecting the team to its premier players defines the Legion, as well. "The Legion of Superheroes is as limitless as tomorrow," Shooter declared. "We have a little corner of the DC Universe pretty much to ourselves. Therefore, we can keep our continuity tight and our world consistent. We have all the advantages of being part of the same mythos that contains Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, et al, but very little of the burden."

The absolute, irrefutable reality was that by the early 2000s, new-reader perception of the Legion was that it was an impenetrable read full of mismatched history that made no sense. You can argue all you like that this perception wasn't fair or accurate, if you're so inclined, but it didn't matter. That was the series' reputation, and it hardened around the characters like cement. We couldn't give that book away no matter how good it actually was. In fact, it's forgotten, but the last time it was relaunched around about 2000 (as THE LEGION by Abnett and Lanning), you could not have asked for a greater promotional push. Wizard Magazine promoted it with giveaways, and they NEVER promote DC. Ads were everywhere, retailer incentives were created...and it was still pretty well D.O.A.

Shooter says DCU Executive Editor Dan DiDio directed him to introduce a new "Super" to the team, but the would-be Super Lad never made it to the page. "After delivering the first draft of the 16-issue plot, I was ordered by Dan DiDio to rewrite it - for free - to include the introduction of a young, male Super -- note how I'm avoiding using the word 'Superboy' -- as a Legionnaire. So, I re-crafted the plot to introduce a new scion of the House of El, Super Lad," offered Shooter. "Francis and I spent a good deal of unpaid time doing design work. But, ultimately, DiDio and DC decided they didn't want or need a new Super, and I was told to excise the character.

Wow! This isn't about Lemnos at all, now, eh?

Thanks, and I have got to say despite being young and the new girl you, Invisible Brainiac, and Ann Hebistand have been so kind and helpful to me, so far it has been really nice getting to know you guys.

In the Threeboot, P.L.'s undoing was Shrinking Violet literally bursting from his body in the grand tradition of *Alien*.

Aw, thanks. I'll echo the sentiment being someone who is back after many many years. Its nice to have a place online that's not an internet scream fest.

Perhaps a moderator could move the discussion about reboots to a different thread? It is a verry fascinating topic.

Trying to get back to Lemnos... while the ending to his story was something of a disappointment, I thought he was a very interesting idea for a character.
A villain with the power to be forgotten by everyone who engineers a galactic war to make sure that people WILL remember him? Now that's a very creative basis for a villain, and I can't think of another case like him. Maybe if he had an interesting codename we could've remembered him better? Lemnos is a bit lame.

As per Ann's original post: life gave him Lemnos and he really did try to make lemnoade, :-)

Perhaps a moderator could move the discussion about reboots to a different thread? It is a verry fascinating topic.

As per Ann's original post: life gave him Lemnos and he really did try to make lemnoade, :-)

Sorry, a small thing here - Violet burst out from Elysion's body, not Lemnos'. Though Elysion WAS working for Lemnos, so this really hurt his plan too

Equally happy having you here, GL! Thanks for contributing to the respectful and thoughtful discussions here!

it's a good idea. but I was looking back through the conversation, and I'm trying to find a natural cutting point.

Wow! This isn't about Lemnos at all, now, eh?

I remember thinking that he was the Legion's version of The Mule from "Foundation and Empire," only physically charismatic.

Only real difference being that the Mule didn't get as much of an ego trip (again, to my memory).

I tried some lemnoade, btw....er.....maybe I didn't? Can't remember. What was I talking about again?

I don't know. I'm distracted cause I can't remember where I put the lemons...

Lemnos zest is a great ingredient in dishes, unless you forget how much you used. Which then leads to a major interplanetary incident, naturally.

One more interview with Mark Waid (which also goes in to why he rebooted the Legion again and felt going back to classic was not an option) includes this snippet:
So Waid doesn't blame Johns or Metzler but DC editorial at the time.

But yeah, "Exactly when did you find out that Johns was going to be using the Legion in Superman?" would be a great question to ask Waid.

It truly is very funny, can?t say I?ve ever had lemnos in my lemonade before.