To every Titan...his or her day.

What did you like or not like about them? Or their storylines? Costumes/codenames/hairdos? What do you find to be particularly memorable about the character? Whatever you wish to discuss. Then in about 24 hours, we'll move to another team member.

Let's start with a founder...



<font size="5">WALLY WEST, KID FLASH/THE FLASH</font s>

As you may guess by my choice of the Perez pic of Wally in the Kid Flash costume, I tend to remember him to the NTT days. By the time I started reading, though, he was a part-timer. Perhaps Kid Flash fans didn't like that, but I like the various characters to have different priorities. I don't remember at the moment how much of his decision was to live his life with school etc. and how much was his trouble with his powers, though.

Specific images I remember: Wally resigning and suggesting Terra for membership. The images (!) Trigon put in his head in the beginning of the Baxter series. KF speeding around the water to the Tower with Frances magnetically levitating/propelling herself beside him. The Kid Flash ring being found in the Tower rubble.

I've always loved Kid Flash. Wally's cockiness/insecurity made him one of the most realistic of all DC's characters to me. Already world famous and an experienced crime fighter Wally knew all about the bad guys but consistantly blundered with his interpersonal relationships. It really touched me that here was one of the most powerful guys in the world and he didn't know how to talk to girls without acting like a macho jerk. He worshiped his Uncle Barry and set himself a nearly impossible standard to live up to after Barry passed away...then berated himself for failing to live up to those standards. A very normal human thing to do, it almost makes him a real human being, not just paper and ink but a real live striving and suffering person.
I thought it was very cool.

I remember Kid Flash from the NTT days pretty much as well.

He always seemed to be the most angsty member/part-time member/nonmember to me. Maybe it was because of his absolutely and completely doomed romance with Raven (has there EVER been a more doomed relationship in comics?) and of course his worries over his super-speed causing him health problems. While I found him to be a bit whiny at times, I also found him to be maybe the most real of the kids at the time. (While Donna was very real to me too, she lived much more of a charmed life than Wally.)

My biggest memory of Kid Flash is the Trigon-Dark Raven-induced vision. His was the best and creepiest of all of them, IMHO.

It's great! He's fulfilled the promise of the 'teen sidekick' by stepping into his mentors shoes (boots in this case) and making the job his own. Wally's story has a feel of natural progression to it, we've watched him grow from his very young teen years into the role of one of the big guns of the JLA.
He's the Flash and nobody doubts it.
That's cool. The way it's been done he doesn't take anything away from his predecessors either, rather his work as the scarlet speedster enhances the reputation of the legendary clan.

-maybe that's Waid's fault for the way he tied all those loose ends together to make DC's super speedsters all part of some kind of collective but that's ok, it works for me-

*bump*

As a kid, who wouldn't want to be Wally West -- super-speed, that dynamic, yellow-and-red costume, a full head of hair (sigh)!

Wally as a personality didn't really register with me until early in the Wolfman/Perez run. He was the self-described conservative kid from the Midwest who didn't trust Redstar (or whatever his name was) because he was Russian. Being a kid from the Midwest, I resented the implication that I should (in Wolfman's eyes?) be both conservative and prejudiced. But I later realized that Wolfman was doing something unique with Wally (as well as the other Titans): He was giving him a fully rounded personality, including some traits that I wouldn't necessarily agree with. It was part of Wally's growth from teenager who thought he had a handle on everything to an adult who would take on the mantle of The Flash.

Even so, Wally was one of the essential Titans -- one of the three, along with Robin and Wonder Girl, who formed the core of the group. But, as with any real teenaged group of friends, they had to grow up, and this was represented, in part, by Wally leaving the team. Of course, he didn't stay away forever. But when he returned to TITANS as The Flash, he didn't quite fit in. He had outgrown the Titans, it seems, when he joined the JLA. Wally realized this and left the Titans again, opening the door for Jesse Quick to grow as the Titans' speedster: a generous and fitting gesture that further showed his growth from the Commie-hating Midwestern kid.

Who's next LYL?

<font size="5">KORIAND'R OF TAMARAN, STARFIRE</font s>

I liked Kory pretty much, and was in fact a fan of the OMEGA MEN series, set in her galaxy.

Lots of fans cried foul when Starfire blasted Deathstroke's wife to dust during Devin Grayson's run (her throat had been slit and her immortal blood was almost all drained yet still she lived and was quite likely in agony), but Starfire's words in her own defense moved me: "I know what it's like to be a slave!" To Starfire it was a mercy killing.

Johns hasn't really focused on her yet, but her few scenes have been enjoyable.

It was hysterical when she showed up with tinfoil on her head during Farber's massively-bad run. Jeebus, those were some BAD comics.

I like the idea of her having a garden from Tamaran at the Tower. Was that a Johns addition or did someone else use it in a previous series?

Kory is okay but not my favorite Titan of old. I never did really care for her and Dick being involved. It always seemed forced to me. Like they had to have a couple in the group.

A genuinely nice person (despite one of the worst childhoods ever) AND a ruthless warrior.

Did Donna ever win one of their sparring matches?

Okay, her original outfit is consistent with sun-worshipping, skin-baring Tamaran. Lucky for the Earth boys, there. I didn't dislike it or think it was the worst thing, but it did look uncomfortable.

I have to admit, I rather enjoy the animated Starfire over the "real" one.

I think Donna was shown to have won one of their sparring matches at least once.

Starfire, I thought, was created to be one of those hot babes to stir adolescent boys' (and girls') fantasies. Even though I was an adolescent when she first appeared, I was initially annoyed at the overt sexism in such a character: She was a cutie with long, curly hair and an almost nothing costume. Perez might as well have tatooed "Playmate of the Year" on her forearm.

But, as with Wally, Wolfman developed Kory's personality along some very different and interesting lines. A born warrior and former slave, Kory was willing to kill, something that didn't sit well with her Titans friends, and particularly not with her boyfriend, Dick. As a princess, she had a much broader perspective on things than her teammates did. The best Kory stories, in my opinion, were the ones that brought that conflict into the open -- not that Kory was right and they were wrong or vice versa, but because each was right in their own way.

I do wish she and Dick could have remained a couple. They were both very strong-willed personalities who needed each other. But because Dick Grayson is a DC icon, he can't be tied permanently to anyone. Too bad.

I like her freshness, not to mention her powers, they are so cool.

<font size="5">GRANT EMERSON, DAMAGE</font s>

No takers yet, hmm.

I don't know much about him, didn't read much of that series. I did see the issue/s of THE TITANS where, on a camping trip, Grant tells Roy that he had been abused as a child. Roy's daughter Lian was there too. Lian's about four, too young to understand what the grownups were saying, but tried to comfort Grant anyway.

The child abuse story is all I remember about Damage, too, LYL. I hadn't even encountered the character before the Devin Grayson run.

Well, he's dead sexy. I thought his powers were unique, but his personality needed some work.

<font size="5">RAVEN</font s>

Yeah.

Trigon's daughter. A demon princess from another dimension with power over a mysterious darkforce and a dark deadly nature tightly controlled by meditation and force of will. Something else else of a departure from ordinary DC superhero characters, you'd expect her to be more comfortable in Dr. Strange's Sanctorum than at Titan's Tower.

I don't usually like magical characters but there's enough science fiction and mysticism in Raven's backstory to satisfy me. I like the character Raven well enough to not like her as a person. That's a nice bit of writing by 'ol Marv.

I quit reading the book a long time ago so somebody else is going to have to tell me what happened and why she wears (or wore) the white outfit.

I quit reading TT around the time of Crisis, so my memories are all based on the older stories. I've been rereading a lot of those issues lately, and I'm surprised how quickly I have tired of Raven. She wasn't my favorite at the time, but still it seems like her story just drug out forever. For about a years worth of stories it seems all she ever did was sit around and bemoan the evil within her etc. Her relationship with Wally was a key part of the group dynamic back then, but it was just plain misery heaped on misery. I will say this though, I enjoy her scenes with Terra simply because they so plainly loathed each other. I also really like the sequence in the first Baxter issue when the group reviews how drastically her appearance had changed since they came together, gradually becoming more gaunt and frightening.

From things I've read on the net, it seems like Raven has floundered over the years along with the rest of the old gang. Did they ever resolve her father issues or is it still her main character hook?

One other note, the animated Raven is easily my favorite member of the team. She gets all the good lines.

We'll Trigon is dead, and right now she doesn't seem to be under his evil influence, but there is always somethng dark about her.

I love Raven (I only wish she had a real code name).

She's not ugly anymore and I find it funny that when her body changes, she looks exactly the same. Her powers were awesome and I like her story, even though it did drag on, because she seemed real dynamic.

DAMAGE:

Read his mag's entire run, it was pretty enjoyable... his powers are the result of having the DNA of the entire Golden Age Justice Society merged with his, which should make the JSA very protective of him, one would think. That abuse storyline in TITANS was touching. It's not made clear wether the abuse is physical or sexual and it doesn't matter... this was from a man Damage believed to be his father. That's got to be difficult. (I think Lian is the true star of Devin Grayson's TITANS run, btw)

RAVEN:

I'm sorry, but I don't think the character has aged well at ALL. Sure, I loved her at the time, but I look back on her and I'm all like, "WTF? She kind-of sucked!"

I MUCH prefer the cool Raven of TEEN TITANS GO! It's likely that Johns' current Raven in TEEN TITANS will strongly resemble the TTG! Raven in look & personality when it's all said and done... I approve.

What I recall form where I started was Wally being mad at Raven. I tend to remember that more than why he was mad at her.

I also remember that quick series of pictures showing how her appearance changed.

<font size="5">TIM DRAKE, ROBIN</font s>

I always felt that in some ways Drake was actually superior to Grayson in the role of Boy Wonder. Tim went to a great deal of trouble to earn the mantle and the mask with his blossoming skills as a detective. I did enjoy the early days of his career, his times with Nightwing are (to me) quite special.There's something in the scenes of Dick and Tim together that is just so darned charming that it makes me smile.

I know that's a little odd for a set of characters that are usually described as 'grim and brooding' but there's still something in their interaction that comes across as deeply affectionate, like they're family. Bruce doesn't actually encourage it but it happens anyway.

Tim's alright, he was good in YOUNG JUSTICE and has been good in TT. I rather like the relationship/friendship developing between Tim and Superboy.

Unlike Seinfeld I hate the Drake. But then again I hated most of Young Justice. I just don't understand this continued 'youthening' of heroes. I don't recall any offical age being given (hell they usually avoid that for all comic book characters) but their representation always seemed to be as Tweens and that's just too young in my opinion.

I had stopped reading Batman long before Tim Drake made his appearance, so I only ever encountered him in the few issues of the Wolfman-era TITANS in which he appeared.

My only concrete memory of Tim Drake, in fact, is from an issue in which he, so far as I recall, doesn't appear. In TALES OF THE NEW TEEN TITANS # 50 -- the Wonder Girl wedding issue -- there's a scene in which Dick Grayson asks Bruce Wayne why he never considered adopting him. (Bruce had recently tried to adopt Tim.) I don't recall Bruce's answer, but it was a very "real" moment between these two characters, an open and vulnerable moment for Dick, and an example of why Wolfman remains one of my favorite writers.

I like this thread LYL. You ought to start one for the Legion when we get back to "normal".

That was Jason Todd.

I like Tim Drake. He was the best replacement for Dick Grayson. He's really neat and I think that he's just perfect for the Titans.

Which robin is the one currently on the Cartoon Network Series?

Its driving me crazy!

It's just Robin. He seems to be an amalgam of them. Mostly Dick though.

Agreed, especially because Dick is the one with the crush on Starfire as the one in the series had protrayed.

[Emily La Tella voice] Never mind. [/Emily La Tella voice]

Agreed. The relationship between Dick & Tim is really well portrayed and adds quite a bit to both characters. They do seem like brothers when they're together and there is no question that Dick is protective of Tim, while Tim really looks up to and admires Dick.

The Nightwing book has gotten so awful (as detailed in another thread) that I would like to see Tim become a major character in that book, taking on the role of confidant/sidekick for a while to help Dick out of the "gutter". He's about the only one that I think could really help Dick "heal" from all the damage Devyn Grayson has done to him recently.

The relatiosnhip developing between Tim and Kon is also pretty neat and sort of appropriate. Considering the traditional Batman/Superman team, it's fitting that the two of them would carry on that tradition.

They haven't actually said that the Robin in the Teen Titans cartoon is Dick but the Batmite like guy was named Nosyerg and he's also the Robin that grows up to be Nightwing. Heck, they haven't even mentiond the Batman directly, just a comment from Robin to Slade that he already had a mentor.

So why aren't Kid Flash, Wonder Girl and Speedy in the Titans cartoon?

Tim's costume: keeps the distinct Robin elements while giving the original the update it sorely needed.

I don't follow the Bat-books (including Robin's own title) so I'm not that familiar with Tim's storylines. If I'm not mistaken, though, he's rich and he's smart. It makes me wonder for just a sec what Bruce would have been like if the Waynes had skipped the movie that night.

I did read Young Justice. The kids go camping and they play Truth or Dare. Someone dares Robin to take his mask off. He does...and there's another mask underneath. He had guessed someone would ask....

<font size="5">JESSE CHAMBERS, JESSE QUICK</font s>

Let me try to play catch-up:

KID FLASH I only ever encountered as the Flash, and because of that I always have a hard time as seeing him as this young sidekick.

RAVEN was always visually interesting to me, but I never really heard or understood her backstory or powers. To me she was this mysterious cowled woman, almost like Cloak of Cloak & Dagger, who could teleport. I didn't ever read much personality from her and always thought she was on the team more for her function of transport than as a great friend who wanted to be there.

DAMAGE I found to be a cool character I could potentially relate to, as this young guy coming into a team of people for the first time and having to make friends. I didn't really follow the series though right after Zero Hour and his joining, so I don't have anything memorable to share about him.

ROBIN/Tim Drake really seems more the epitome of Robin than Jason Todd ever was...but of course, Tim always was meant to be a more 'modern' Robin. I actually kind of have a hard time accepting him still as a Boy Wonder, just because some of the first stories I ever read were Bat-Man issues from around 1990 when Tim was still coming to his own. I was 6 at the time...and knowing I'm about 20 now and he's still the teenage sleuth is kind of odd to me mentally. I guess this is what everyone goes through eventually though, as they grow up and suddenly find themselves older than the heroes they looked up to as kids. I actually kind of fear the day I feel this way about the postboot Legion who I've literally gone through my teenage years with.

JESSE QUICK I encountered only in Flash and Impulse, but loved how she fit in the Flash mythos. A young woman, but not too young, who was quite mature in using her powers and was more practical and calm compared to many speedsters. Visually I've always found her cute and loved for her second costume. When I heard she was slated to join the Titans, I figured it was a great match knowing they were all about the same age...the young adults of the universe but definitely out of their teenage years. Since I didn't know Flash was slated to join back up too, I thought she'd be a practical asset.

Jess was great in FLASH, and in Devin's run of TITANS.

When Jay Farber took over, though, her character got walked all over. He pretty much turned her into a boyfriend-stealing bimbo (and please note the boyfriend she slept with was HER OWN MOTHER'S FIANCE).

Farber just about destroyed Jesse Quick. Now no one wants to write her.

KID FLASH: Arguably, Wally West has grown as much or more than any other character in comics. I'll always remember how the death of Barry Allen hit Wally... he went from this somewhat stereotypically conservative jerkish boy to a young man weathering pain and grief. His subsequent changes have been fairly believable.

RAVEN: Unlike Raven, who has had silly transformations heaped upon her time after time. She's the Kinetix of the Titans. I remember how she manipulated Wally into joining 'her' Titans by making him think he was in love with her. At the least, her costume and 'soulself' were visually interesting through almost all of her versions.

DAMAGE: He has a sort of 'Orient Express' origin that is pretty unique. Too bad his connections to so many DCU characters has been so limited*. As a Titan, his stay was really too short to produce memories, though the already-mentioned abuse story does linger.

I liked that he was raised in the South, as this part of the country is pretty neglected, super-hero wise.

ROBIN/Tim Drake: After the fate of Jason Todd (voted to *die* by readers... I find that disturbing), I was reluctant to embrace a new Robin. But Tim was so capable and likeable (he 'earned' his redbreast by deducing Batman's ID) that I couldn't help but like him. I totally agree about the Nightwing/Robin brotherly feel-- I only *wish* I was that close with my brother. It's always a treat to see Dick and Tim swinging from rooftop to rooftop over the streets of Gotham City or Bludhaven.

His best moments as teammate happened in YOUNG JUSTICE... so far as a Titan, he hasn't really entered my memory.

JESSE QUICK: Remember her debut in the JSA miniseries? When she was introduced as a student of superheroes? I wish that'd been continued, rather than her becoming the business mogul. She has a lot in common with Wally, too, in that both are carrying on the legacies of father(figures). Plus, her status as the only speedster that flies makes her unique. In her early TITANS issues, she came across as a developing leader... smart and strategic like Nightwing. Unfortunately, that was quickly dropped for the horrible sleeping with her mother's boyfriend storyline. Now, she's powerless and working for the JSA. Hopefully, she'll be treated better there-- if she ever gets any panel-time.

Todd

*I added another 'relative' to Damage's family tree (sorta) in a fanfic here web page

This just shows how different a slant we have on things. I liked that storyline for its sheer gutsiness.

Jesse Quick was someone who appeared to have it all together: successful in business, a side career as a heroine, a heroic legacy to live up to. And then, bammo! She does something so incredibly stupid, it makes you realize she has some issues (with her mother, perhaps?) that she hadn't dealt with.

I'm not saying I liked the idea of Jesse being a slut. But that sort of behavior often masks deeper problems, particularly when someone pretends outwardly to have everything under control. I wish this could have been explored more: If super-heroes are going to have psychological hangups, you can bet they'd be big hangups.

As far as Raven is concerned, I agree pretty much with what matlarrk said earlier: Her story about trying to control her dark side got old very quickly.

Wasn't there a point in the Baxter series in which Trigon had been defeated and Raven was transformed into this sort of angelic being (hence the white costume)? If memory serves, she was gone for the Titans for a time afterwards. I can't recall anything of significance being done with her character afterwards. Perhaps she should have been left in limbo, or heaven, or wherever.

I would rather Jesse had BEEN a slut. Her actions were 100 percent out of character.

HWW, you are the only person I've ever seen say that they enjoyed that storyline in Titans. I used to hang a bit at the old DC Ttans board. That storyline was loathed.

At least Geoff Johns took pity on Jesse's character and gave her a (tiny) role in JSA. Man, how an up & coming poential superstar crashed & burned. Thanks, Farber.

I used to hang out at the Titans board, too. I remember the loathing Faerber (the correct spelling) generated!

I don't mind being in the minority in appreciating that storyline. I guess it comes down to the fact that I look for a fresh angle on super-heroes, for something that hasn't been done before. If a storyline challenges my expectations of what super-heroes should be like or how they should behave, then so much the better.

This often happens in real life. (Kurt Cobain, anyone?)

Maybe I've been following rock stars too much.

It's still my intention to reread that entire run of Titans one day and see what I think of it now.

<font size="5">GARTH, AQUALAD/TEMPEST</font s>

Ah, my namesake of the month!

Honestly, the "other" Garth has never been one of my favorite Titans, though he does share a few things in common with M'Onel: Both are outsiders, to a degree, and both are difficult to utilize in many stories, M'On because he is one of the most powerful Legionnaires, and Aqualad/Tempest because of the aquatic nature of his powers. Both also have rather serious expressions (in these avatars, at least), and a rather intense outlook on life.

I first encountered Aqualad as part of the old "Superman/Aquaman Hour" cartoon show in the early '70s. Strangely, he was not a member of the Teen Titans, but appeared exclusively as Aquaman's sidekick. (Aquaman's nickname for him was "Tadpole.") I was surprised to learn later that Aqualad was a founding member of the Titans, having appeared from the get-go in the Mr. Twister issue of THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD.

It was not suprising that he was eventually replaced in the group by Speedy, a much more versatile character. Even when the Titans book was revived in the mid '70s, Aqualad's participation seemed an afterthought. He was quickly stricken with some sort of Atlantean disease and kept comatose in a fishtank for most of that book's run. How undiginified!

I can't recall any meaningful appearances by Garth (who somewhere along the way got a name, finally) during the Wolfman/Perez run, though I vaguely recall him being present when Tula, his longtime Aquagirl, bought it in CRISIS.

I did not encounter Garth again until the Devin Grayson TITANS run. By then he was known as Tempest. He had also changed quite a bit, sporting a dynamic costume, a swirly tatoo over his eye, and a much more central role in the Titans. Eventually, I learned he was married, and his wife, Dolphin, and child, came to live with the Titans. I rather liked all of these developments. They made Garth a much more interesting character and contributed to a renewed sense of family, which was so crucial to who the Titans were, as defined in the '80s by Wolfman.

But then the TITANS book floundered, and Garth was once again left behind when the team went to that bizarre world of drug pushers. Stricken (again!) by one of the drug dealers, he started to metamorphose into ... something. That period of the book is largely a blur to me.

I don't know what Garth's current state of affairs is like, but I do think he is a character with enormous potential that has only barely been tapped.

Wow, Damage got more love than the Titan of the Sea.

Ask me about Garth and the first thing I'll probably think of is the cover to 45, the storyline that followed The Judas Contract. The second is Garth and Tula skinny-dipping (for medicinal purposes only, mind you) at Donna's wedding. I read his Who's Who entry way back when, and for some reason I remember the thing about his purple eyes.

Hmm, and early in Titans Garth told off Roy for calling him Gillheaad and throwing water on him. One of those grow up moments.

<font size="5">TONI MONETTI, ARGENT</font s>

I think people are caught up in the excitement over LoSH # 1. The Titans seem to have been brushed momentarily aside.

I had forgotten about the "Gillhead" remark. I may have to change my member status.

Argent ... great group in the early '70s. Loved "Hold Your Head Up."

Oh, we're talking about the Titans' Argent. I'll get back to you on that.

OK, Toni Monetti ...

If I had the issues in front of me, I might be able to give a more cogent response about Argent. But having the issues in front of me would be sort of cheating, since this thread is more about what the character means to us.

Of all the "second generation" Titans I first encountered in the Grayson/Faerber run, Toni was the one who made the strongest impression. She was an excitable young woman with a positive outlook. I never thought the gangster father background (or whatever it was) really fit her character. She never seemed to be someone who came from a broken home. I think she tried the hardest to fit in with the older Titans and succeeded more so than Jesse Quick and Damage.

Still, my only definite memory of her is from the TITANS/LEGION: UNIVERSE ABLAZE mini-series. She had a brief romance with Cosmic Boy while they were trapped under the sea and, at the end, when she was returned to her own time with no memory of the adventure, she still had a lingering impression of wearing his flight ring. I thought that was kind of nice, a reminder of sorts that teenaged heroes can still be teenagers.

I don't have a clear picture of her either. Swirly costume. Truly white skin. Shorter, dark curly hair. Can't recall her powers.

I do remember that she came from money and I was thinking it was gangster-related. When I went looking for her pic at Titans Tower I read the first few bits of her bio, and that says her dad's an ex-senator. One doesn't preclude the other, I suppose.

<font size="5">DICK GRAYSON, ROBIN/NIGHTWING</font s>

Dick Grayson is the central guy in the Titans, the one who holds it all together. When he's not around, it just doesn't seem like the Titans, to me.

Dick managed to achieve this central status without the benefit of a super-power. Like his mentor, he succeeds on willpower, wits and skill. Perhaps Dick is a born leader, in a way that Bruce is not. (Bruce is more of loner.) Perhaps this is one of the major differences between Dick and that bat fellow.

During the (Devin) Grayson/Faerber run, much was made of Dick following too much in Batman's footsteps, becoming controlling and manipulative. Certainly, this is a product of Dick's upbringing; Batman's grimness and distrust of others is part of what makes Dick who he is, as well. But Dick must also guard against those impulses. He's not Batman and doesn't have to be, even though he has an all-too understandable tendency to emulate the only father figure he's known.

Really now, sentients. I know you know Dick.

What comes to mind first: that brief period when Dick was between costumed identities. Part 1 of The Judas Contract. The only non-powered Titan, he was the sole member to avoid capture by the Terminator. I remember what Slade said: powers augment a person, they don't make them.

New Teen Titans 38 was, of course, Donna's story, but it also portrays Dick's relationships with 2 women important to his life: his best friend Donna ("I loved more than if she was just my lover") and his girlfriend Kory.

Interesting to note the changes some of these du jour Titans have been through since this thread launched.

Most notable for me are the revitalizations of Damage and Jesse 'Liberty Belle' Quick in JSoA.

Perhaps it's time for this thread to come in season again, Teeds... and don't be afraid to use the 70s members or the 1-Year Gap members!

**COUGHS LOUDLY**

Teeds?

I hereby appoint Lash as the curator of this thread. So who's up next, hot pants?

MISS MARTIAN




I found her to be Geoff's greatest addition to the Teen Titans. She's still a key player in the DCU today.

I think I'm a little in love with her.

What do YOU think about her?

I like her a lot too. She would be perfect as a Legionnaire as she sort of over powers the Titans which is why she seems to get sidelined a lot.

The Legion needs a "Miss." Maybe a future writer will explore the Inertia/Sun Girl Johns subplots and get her into the future?

I'm looking forward to her on the upcoming Young Justice cartoon!

When I first saw Miss Martian, I kind of groaned. (Along with the young Zatara) She seemed to pop up out of nowhere. But I have grown to like her.

Miss Martian is a fun, fun character. I definitely think that she was one of the breakout stars of the dozen or so new Titans they kinda threw at the wall recently.

There was an interesting run of creating new junior versions of the various Justice League members who didn't already have sidekicks / legacies, like Miss Martian, Zachary Zatara, Offspring, Bombshell and Molecule.

About the only long-term Leaguer that doesn't have a Titan legacy running around is Black Canary. (Aquaman has had, like, *five...*)

I liked her in Red Robin recently ... not a fan of the costume though ...

The costume def. requires a certain kind of artist to make it work... I think in the above pic it does work.

She's one of the only members of this line-up I still like.

I love her, and I hate what Johns did to her Brightest Day (even if she's still alive).

I'd like to do a back-up feature which explores the whole Sun Girl thing.

I was one of those who groaned when she was first introduced. I thought the character was lame, and the name more so.

However, she has grown on me over time. I actually like her now. I'm looking forward to seeing where she goes after the Henderson run.

I took a while to warm up to her too but I also am somewhat of a fan now.

One thing I don't like about her though is that she's really a White Martian.

I love her look and costume and the green skin is what brings it together. But I don't like that she has to hide her true identity, and in essence lie to everyone about her true nature, all the time. I don't think it sends a very good message to (young) readers.

Outerspace ingenue!

Extra super cute!!

Yeah, I agree the whole White Martian thing kind of sucks.

Love the character otherwise, however!

POWER BOY

Awesome boob window.

What a maroon.

I think I have the ccomic he dies in...my only exposure to him.

It's his greatest moment as a character.

Before or after they took him off the tree branch he was impaled on?

His existance almost justifies the historical mass killings of Titans.

The tree branch had a more interesting personality.

Right from the start you knew he was a jerk. And that was the only personality given to him.

Well, he was a cutie. As a character, Power Boy, could have been salvaged. Yeah, he was kind of an arrogant jerk. But, he was born and raised on Apokolips, so all things considered, he could have been much worse. His stalking of Supergirl was explained as some kind of reaction to his empathetic powers. That was kind of an interesting twist.

Power Boy's main crime was being introduced at the wrong time. He was introduced as part of the New God universe when Countdown and Final Crisis were changing the concept of that universe. He was introduced as a Teen Titan during an era when a tree branch through the chest passed for character development.

RIP Power Boy.

Is he really REALLY dead or jusy like, sorta-dead. I was under the "not all the way dead" impression.

Anyway I do hope he comes back-- there is nothing wrong with a guy hero being a complete himbo. No reason why there can't be at least one.

Actually...the only image I have in my head of him is on said tree branch.

DANNY CHASE

Toss indeed.

I wasn't following Titans during his tenure, but I must have seen an issue or two. Can't remember a thing about them (him).

is danny short for danielle ? or what ....


he (or she) was a strong telekinetic.

Danny never got any love from Titan fans. The most hated Titan ever? I never saw what all the fuss was about. Yes, he could be irritating, but that was the point that Marv was trying to make. The Titans take an irritating kid under their wing and try to bring out the good in him. It worked for me.

I believe he is going to be in GAMES when it is finally released.

I should clarify that I know a little about Danny (TK, parents are international superspies or something) but I got the info from sources other than the Titans books. Can't remember any story he was in.

I think one of the problems with acceptance of Danny by the fans is the lack of costume. You would think Gar had a spare Doom Patrol costume he could have loaned Danny. And the personality they gave him was very grating.

well ... i certainly didn't want to wait a month to read stories about an irritating boy who had more super powers than i ever would. and no costume. (i dropped the title during the 'danny chase episode')

i remember he got an unfair amount of face time as well, it was like 'Danny Chase and the New Teen Titans'.


he did get his big heroic sacrificial death tho. i bet some fans, who were still on board, breathed a sigh of relief.

When I finally read the Danny Chase issues his reputation as the "most-hated Titan ever" was well known to me so I was all prepared to hate him - but surprisingly, I really liked what he brought to the team (other than the no-costume/codename thing - that bugged).

He was supposed to rock the boat that was the well-oiled, very familiar/comfortable with each other Titans team at that point. He probably did it a bit too well. I found him quite a believable character. Arrogant yet very insecure. It's funny that decades later another young arrogant punk of a character would be introduced and would be such a huge hit with the fans - Damien Wayne. I guess Danny's secret insecurity is what did him in with fans back then (along with refusing to conform to super-hero conventions like a costume and codename of course).

One Danny Chase scene that will always stand out in my mind was the moment when he very casually and unsympathetically revealed to Dick that Jason Todd had died (Dick was off in space at the time). He didn't do it out of spite but because his social cues were so bad that he hadn't realised Dick and Jason would have been close or how the news would affect him. It was a well-written moment for both characters I though.

Phantasm rocked too and had one of the best looks in all of Titans history I thought. Danny's 'death' at the beginning of Titans Hunt was an exciting moment for me because following on so soon after Golden Eagle's I realised 'Shit. They're really shaking things up here!' (This was of course in an era before death became the over-used, yawn-inducing, crutch of a poor writer that it is today. It was actually something exciting and different back then.)

When he came back as Phantasm I approved of the development and I probably even shed a little tear at his heroic sacrifice along with Arella at the end of that storyline. I never liked that hokey 'souls of Azareth' identity that they grafted onto Phantasm after that and if he/it ever comes back - I hope it's with a new/singular identity underneath.

ROSE WILSON / RAVAGER

Ravager = probably one of the best re-inventions of an F-list Titan ever!

To go from Lian's baby-sitter to having her own toy and starring in her own back-up tales in just a short time is amazing.

Loved the camraderie she shared with Kid Devil in the One Year Later stories. (I CANNOT believe they later killed him off after I quit reading. He was breaking out as a popular, interesting and fairly original character. God, Didio sucks!)

Great 'look' too. Love the half mask.

I'm not too familiar with the era that the panel above is taken from though. The Bill Jaaska art travesty of that period did me in. Any good Rose moments from there?

I didn't mind Danny....thought Phantasm was an AMAZING visual and character design generally, though I'm still not sure whether I like that he ended up being Danny Chase or not.

I dunno about Rose...she seems like a cool character, but the whole gouging her own eye out and being drugged and brainwashed by her father kind of skeevs me out a lot, especially considering she still wears his costume. I think I would like her more if she took on an identity more independent from her creepy father who has too much of an interest in teenage girls for my liking...

A Rose is a Rose is a Rose.

She's a solid character. A bit creepy but she still has lots of potential.

Lash, can we please make Donna Troy the next Titan du jour?

<span style="font-size: 24px;"> DONNA TROY </span>




Let's DU JOUR it !!!!

(I'm sure Lash will approve ... and if not .... idk)

More DU JOUR !!!! POR VOUS!



and then there's this weird one (by John Byrne by the looks of it)



The red Wonder Girl costume will always be the one for me.

Love that Darkstar uniform.

One of the most beloved comic book characters of all time. A little sister, a big sister, a first crush, a guy's gal, a best friend, a tough hero, vulnerable, brave, wise, untouchable but accessible at the same time. She was a cool chick and an empowered woman. Titan du jour? How about Titan of the century!

RE: Darkstar costume

yeah!!! I like the young version with the sandals too ...

I also really liked her simple toga outfit in Kingdom Come.

( I got to know DT during the red wonder girl costume era though ... so i'll always think of that one as Donna)

NTT 38 is important to Teeds. 'Nuff said.

moi aussi ...

Peebs, the only thing you do that I disapprove of is ignore me.

Donna rocks, as is well-known!

Trish has made her appearance. finally.

That's Patricia to you little mister.

Let's find a real crappy Titan to make fun of... Let me check...

I first knew Donna in the red suit too. I gotta say I liked the starfield jumpsuit though. Starfield is kinda like navy, it looks good on everyone...and it really suited Donna's dark hair.

(post removed so as not to step on Donna's toes... and to start an awesomeballz new thread)

Thirded!

Let's also not forget she pulled Raven back from the brink in the "RAVEN BERSERK" issue.

Fourthed. Donna has managed to step out of Wonder Woman's shadow, and deservedly so. She was human enough to make terrible mistakes, but heroic enough to learn from them and do better afterwards.

In the last Justice League run before Flashpoint, her experiences were specifically shown to have strengthened her to the point that she got some "power" to defeat Eclipso.

in the Cry For Justice ... didn't she have her wrists lanced through and she still managed to beat down Prometheus.

Donna gets it done.


one thing though, let me get this straight .... they killed her (again) in blackest night, and then brought her back in blackest night ? he he

to

Thanks for all the pictures, Peebs.

Mmm, love the starfield costume too.

Even the red tabard with golden eagle thingie on teen Wonder Girl was kinda neat.

Not a fan of how busy the Troia costume was, 'though. It was trying too hard to be three different costumes at once, I think... And the short hair? Yeah. And by 'yeah,' I mean NO!

It's hard to follow one of the most beloved characters of all time but:


<span style="font-size: 24px;">LILITH CLAY</span>





I first got to know her during the Trigon event at the beginning of the New Teen Titans series. She was so brave and collected in the face of Trigon, 7 evil and more powerful Titans, and a whimpering Arella.

After that though, she had that boring storyline where she falls in love with that bird guy and then gets the Donna Troy treatment for an origin.

That bird guy (Azrael) was a terrible wimp and an annoying whiner. I wish he'd been the one who got offed in Crisis instead of Kole. Jeez, they should have had him as a pallbearer at every Titans funeral after - his weeping would have at least added to the mood.

As for Lilith, I wish her first origin story had let her play a more active role. She kind of just stood there as a damsel in distress...

I love that foxy Vegas show girl outfit she has on in the image.

She never had a great costume, and her taste in street clothes for adventures was ... *questionable* ....

I mean the only thing more ridiculous than fighting crime in high heels is fighting crime in high heeled mules.




She went from golden Vegas show girl to .... MOM!



She does like to show off her legs though !!!

Lilith had such potential. Shame that she never got that one defining moment and/or story arc that would have made her a Titans icon and ensured her survival.

Maybe she'll return in the DCnU?

How can I like Lilith so much when I don't really know much about her? Well, a cute pleated skirt and boots go a long way. Also, Lilith is close to Lillian which = LYL = TD.

For the GNARRK fans.

Lilith always looked like she belonged in a Scooby-Doo cartoon, in that outfit. Sort of a mashup between Daphne and Velma.

I never 'got' Lilith. She would have, IMO, been a thousand times more intriguing in her own House of Mystery-esque title, out there exorcising ghosts and saving people who are possessed or cursed by witches or something.

Put her in the same corner of the DCU with figures like Terrance Thirteen 'the Ghost Breaker' and Doctor Occult and the Phantom Stranger and John Constantine, and she'd look more at home, I think.

Sounds intriguing!

The last few issues of the original Teen Titans series were a sort-of proto-Buffy thing, so Lilith was right at home in those. They're also among the few issues of the original Teen Titans that are worth reading more than once.

EDIT: I'm referring to the late 60s-early 70s run, not the late 70s run, which I still haven't read (I'll get to it one day.)

I adore the Lil image on 33. Classic.
Lash *LOVES* 42 (even though Lil's hair is...blond?)

C'est un nouvelle JOUR!!!!!

This one may only last a few minutes but, let's switch up the eras ...

<span style="font-size: 24px;">MAS Y MENOS</span>






(Images are from the DC wiki, the second is an image of the animated DC characters but there aren't a lot of photos of the comic book characters. Also if you want to see lots of cute pictures ... google images Mas Y Menos haha)


btw I haven't read a Titans comic since 1988!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Fanfic Lady:
<strong>Lilith had such potential. Shame that she never got that one defining moment and/or story arc that would have made her a Titans icon and ensured her survival. . Ah, but since this is a Titans thread, I shall go back on-topic.

I love the idea of Lilith solving mysteries and being mixed up in magic shenanigans. Looking back, the only other Titan who could fill that role is Raven and maybe Zatara - but Lilith looks so much more normal than they do, so it'd work.

Mas Y Menos were somewhat cool in the Titans toon. They had to touch for their superspeed to work, right? I don't remember that much, but one good thing was that they managed to keep them from becoming another pair of Wonder Twins.

Superspeed seems like the worst power to share as twins when needing to touch to activate.

It's HARD running while holding hands.


The only worse power would be intangibility.

Which Titans era are Mas y Menos from?

Wikipedia says "Post Graduation Day". During the one year gap

I think they were originated in the animated series.

Ah.

Thanks, Peebs.

I used to like the Johns/McKone Titans, but it makes me cringe when I try to reread it. McKone's art still looks great, but I've really developed a distaste for just about anything by Johns, except some of his GL stories.

EDIT: Oh, the animated series. Never saw it. I'm very picky about adaptations of comic books.

maybe it's Demi-Jour kinda day !

Better than Demi Moore.

OUCH! I know, I know, that's mean, given that she's going through a divorce, but I couldn't resist.

<span style="font-size: 24px;">RED STAR </span>







This one spans the generations ...
(When did he get energy powers?)

I like him. I'm Russian on my mother's side of the family. He should have been the Colossus of the Titans-verse.

he used to have a red and white costume but, I can't seem to find it.

They tried to make him arrogant, which I don't mind anymore but, I thought the whole "cold war" thing was weird and passe when put in a book that had space aliens, amazons, and cyborgs getting along just fine.

I don't know, the Cold War raged pretty intensely throughout the 80s. But, yeah, it could have been handled better in NTT. He deserved better.

in his early appearances i kinda liked his tough guy personality in contrast to the *nice guys* in the Titans.

I wished he had more powers than being slightly super though, back then. Was he meant to be a Captain America type ...

<span style="font-size: 24px;"> CAPTAIN MARVEL JR or CM3 or SHAZAM! </span>



I always liked Captain Marvel Jr. dunno why.

Junior has always been my favorite member of the Marvel Family. I love his classic solo adventures and interactions with Cap and Mary.
Ultimately, I think his inclusion in the Teen Titans was a mistake. Just not a good fit. Much like the Thunder's membership in the Legion. The Shazam magic works best in it's own universe, and always falls a little flat when the Marvels are shoehorned into the greater DC universe.

Red Star's arrogance was more a conviction that what he was doing was right, rather than self-love. I could get behind that. (Now, Hank Hall, on the other hand...!)

I didn't read the issues where Junior was a Titan, but I liked him in JLA/Titans. He seemed like one of the team, though on the fringes of it - he belonged, but wasn't that close with the others.

<span style="font-size: 24px;"> TERRA </span>



Terra was WAY ahead of her time. Way before Hit-Girl.

She made me squirm, but I guess that was the whole point.

To paraphrase the captions from the climax of the Judas Contract, sometimes people are just mean and nasty.

She made me squirm too, before she was exposed, when she was needy and manipulative, and after ... even more when she was smoking cigars and (probably/was she ?) sleeping with Deathstroke, trying to kill our Titans ... and then she eventually totally lost it in the battle at the end of the Judas contract ... and buried herself.


She was totally mental.


What I did really like about her, was seeing her in action, she was so good at using her powers, and was very powerful .... She kicked butt along side the Titans and then pretty much kicked their butts. She was awesome in battle. too bad she was meant to be a traitor.

She didn't mess around, that's for sure.

I'm a big fan of her brother, Geo-Force.

Geo Force is awesome, I was just going to say how .... did they end up so different ?

I don't buy any kidnapping story making her bad either, and I think Terra made that up anyway ... maybe she WAS just bad.

I really enjoyed the Justice League: The Nail story when Geo Force was the strongest man on Earth since Clark wasn't Superman yet.

Geo Force the Man of Iron.

I love, love, LOVE the first JLA: The Nail. It was a HUGE influence on my writing.

And I don't think the second one is as bad as a lot of people think it is.

um... can I just say I love the Titans discussion that PB and FL (and everyone else) have had going on for the past few pages. The Titans was such a great universe of characters and stories once and it's been fun reading your remembrances of it.

Some quick notes of my own -

* Donna - like her; don't love her the way so many others seem to. Partly because her whole den mother persona is a bit boring to me and partly because her whole convoluted back-story makes her hard to get a handle on. I also *HATE* that starfield costume she sports that is completely just a feminized version of Star Boy's costume. Give her her own unique costume (and super-hero name - "Donna Troy" as a heroic identity doesn't work for me) I say. I liked her best in the Wolfman/Perez years. Then, she had a great costume and identity and I really liked her friendship with Kory and Dick.

* Lilth - love with the power of a thousand burning suns. Will never ever forgive Judd Winick for his sloppy killing of her, or that whole craptackular series it occurred in. The absolute nadir of Titans story-telling IMO. I wish she had never become Omen though. Wearing that ugly robe and being Raven-lite went against everything that made Lilith great.

* Mas y Menos - I think they've only appeared in like 3 DCU Titans comics and were never featured heavily in them, but they were fun in the cartoon and I've got nothing against them. That 'Teen Titans Go' cartoon was *really good* IMO actually. It took me a while to warm up to it but it ended up creating a really wonderful, slightly different version of the Titans that we all know and love. And SO many of them showed up in the show. Was such a hoot seeing characters like Herald and Killowatt and all the rest that I never thought I'd see animated make not just cameos but get actual important roles.

Red Star - rocks! Love Leonid! I first saw him in Crisis and always wondered what franchise that Russian character was from. I prefer him in green to that red/yellow thing - but I do love that Titans Hunt and just post it era (until the hideous NTT #100) that introduced that outfit and featured him so prominently. Of all the Titans, I've always thought of Red Star as the most ready for the JLA or JLI or whatever. Dick, Donna, Vic and all the others belong in the Titans IMO, but I think Leonid has the power and the personality/authority to make the leap to the JLA.

Captain Marvel Jnr. - is also my favourite member of the Marvel Family but I never liked him in the Titans. Even though I think I actually voted for him to join it back when that reader-voted membership election was held! haha Does anyone else remember that? Two developments that have really lessened my appreciation of Freddy Freeman in (fairly) recent years though - 1) that stupid CM3 name - what an interesting codename. NOT!; and 2) that he no longer needs the crutch to walk with. Everyone complains about DC taking Barbara Gordon out of the wheel chair but what about healing Freddy's lame leg?! Turning him from a disabled mortal into a super-powered mini-God was such a big part of Freddy's wish-fulfillment appeal IMO. I really hate that they took that away from him.

* Terra - great character obviously and from such an awesome era of the Titans too. I was just admiring the Perez covers from that era over on comics.org and it suprised me to realise that even though Terra seemed like such a big part of that era, she never showed up until issue #28 and was dead after just over a year. She certainly made a big impact on the team and that's despite the run of stories preceding her introduction being so very, very good too.

P.S. Another big fan of 'JLA: The Nail' here too. That was the book that made me realise - "Hey, these Elseworlds comics can actually be pretty good!". Great suspense and tension and wonderful to see so many obscure characters get moments to shine. The sequel was OK but suffered from too much going on. But I'll always love it for at least showing that Colossal Boy didn't stay dead after the events of Superboy's Legion.

Thanks, Blacula.

Glad to know someone likes Leonid even more than I do. If just about anyone other than Dan Jurgens was writing JLI, I'd want to see him there, and then graduate to the JLA (if just about anyone other than Geoff Johns was writing JLA.)

<span style="font-size: 24px;">AQUA GIRL</span>
(There are as many Aqua Girl's as there are Power Boy's!!)








I kind of liked this Kingdom Come version of Tula, Aqua Girl, as a bad girl hero BUT who names their child after a long lost girlfriend, GARTH!!!

I liked both Tula and Lorena. Both were decently strong characters who could hold their own even out of water. Tula was more than "just" Garth's girlfriend, while Lorena's interactions with Bombshell helped keep the drama up without being grating.

[snip]

I tend to agree, though I'm never a fan of killing off characters.

This from somebody that likes her heroes somewhat sentimental and/or neurotic, but NOT when that's the sum total of their entire shtick.

I'm pretty sure Azrael was why I quit reading the damn book.

AZRAEL


(courtesy of titans tower)

A turkey for Thanksgiving weekend.

He's supposed to be the 'angel of death' maybe that's why he's so depressed.

Azrael did warm me up for dropping the book but, the Donna Troy led team of not so super Titans (a sick wally, speedy, hawk, and Jason Todd) that also helped ... but Danny Chase finished me off.

The saddest part is, the book LOOKED great during this time, thanks to Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez and the ever-underrated Eduardo Barreto.

That picture above makes me want to punch Azrael in the face.

"STOP CRYING!!! I'M GOING TO HIT YOU UNTIL YOU STOP CRYING!!!"

I keep thinking that with the open mouth and the watery eyes, it must be allergies. Offer him some high-grade antihistamines-- stat!

May I beat him with the package first?

Azrael affects me like Charma does women...

Well, I guess technically that counts as "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle..."

[hugs tree]

That was nice when he drew all those Titans of myth in their realms especially. I really liked how he drew flying people, as if they were gliding or really in the wind rather than just supernaturally in the air like everyone else does.

He was easily duped:




Was THIS guy really more interesting than Charlie Parker ??

(I'm referencing some creator quotes I commente don over in the Faces of Death thread about how everyone said Charlie parker was uninteresting, and there were a lot of other characters like him)

Yeah, Garcia-Lopez is that rare comic book artist who's not only a great draftsman, but also displays an amazing understanding of space and dynamics. With most comic book artists, it's either one or the other.

I really thought that Azrael would be worth several pages of thread just 'in the making fun of him way' at least !

Where's the hate???

This one goes out to our special lil' tater tot out there.

<span style="font-size: 24px;"> DUELA DENT </span>



(from Titans tower)



Batgirl sure is mean.



Is it Doola ? Like someone who helps you give birth ? Or Dwayla ?

Somewhere in the back of my head is a fanfic solo-series about Duela and her previously unknown twin sister Duecy, teaming up as various supervillains 'daughters,' to fight crime.

As Ivy's Daughter, she'll have wooden composite armor and a thorny whip that administers a paralytic curare derivative, as well as pollen grenades that cause severe allergic reactions in others.

As Freeze's Daughter, she'll wear clunky armor that includes 'frost-throwers' that spray people with a quick-freezing solution of water and some unknown chemical agent that she 'acquired' from police lockup after a raid on one of Mr. Freeze's laboratories.

She'd have a secondary character who works at the Gotham PD and maintains the evidence locker, who allows 'his girlfriend' to sneak into the locker and admire the cool super-villain tech they capture, unaware that his ladyfriend admirer is none other than Duela Dent, using him to learn how to replicate various super-villains gear for her own ever-changing series of costumed identities!

Duela is such a tragically underused character!

And, really, given how the Joker has evolved over the last decade or so, one that no longer has a real place in the DCU. Can you imagine someone masquerading as 'Joker's Daughter' these days and not ending up dead?

The Joker's not quite the 'Clown Prince of Crime' he used to be...

Original Duela was the closest thing we had to a Titans Marlena Dietrich. They should never have tried to "improve" her.

hey whos next? I am hoping for the following Titans: Bumblebee, Golden Eagle, Bat-Girl/Flamebird....

working on it ... (since I seem to have taken over this thread ... power corrupts HAHAHAHA!)

I'd like to let Duela run for a few days 'cause I know there are lots of fans out there.

.. and then I'd like at least two of your suggestions on here in the very near future!!

So he can fly. And he cries a lot.

He could get a job as a mourner at funerals, with the angel motif and all.

Grife, at least all his weeping served to highlight how strong the Titans women were!

I vote for the neglected Titans women! Kole (especially Kole), Bumblebee, Flamebird, Mirage!

And I loved Duela as the crafty daughter of Two-Face. The one who hid her identity from even Dick Grayson, and came up with all those awesome gadgets. She rocked.

Catch-up:

Raven: Like the compassion, but was annoyed at the self-pitying moments. It was understandable, though, given her past. I prefer the current, more stable Raven now. Cartoon Raven is still the best.

Jesse Quick: Liked her in JSA, but not quite a fave.Her rapport with Hourman and with Damage was great, though, and a nice nod to their past history.

Flash (Wally): First exposure was also as a Justice Leaguer in Giffen's Justice League Europe. Loved him there as a hero who was growing into his role. Loved him in Morrison's League too. Reading him as Kid Flash is weird, but also shows how much he'd grown.

Damage: Liked him better as the guy with the attitude in JSA. I usually hate when tragic events happen to heroes just cause, but with Damage it was realistic. I always felt it was a waste to off one of the JSAers with unique powers, when the team is so full of generic strongman types...

More catch up:

Danny Chase - he was snotty, but it made sense. He was a smart, talented kid after all. He did grow a bit, though - particularly in the recently-released Games. Still, he was hard to like. I think that was the intent right?

Power Boy - meh. Creepy stalker vibe was annoying. Understandable, but still annoying.

Miss Martian - adorable, and one of the few "pure" heroes. Pure in the sense that she really wanted to do good; she wasn't forced into it, not in it for the money or the fame, and she had little emotional baggage. Hate the thought of her being Sun Girl's future slave.

Dick Grayson - another hero who really grew into his role. Even though he's nearly perfect, it's hard to "hate" him because he's such a nice guy.

Rose Wilson - salvaged from the scrappy heap! Glad she's back, she hates her dad (who deserves it), and is now her own woman.

Argent - her character growth was believable, and she's awesome powerful so I am now a lifelong fan. I hate her new costume, though. Bring back the old one!

Tempest - another fave (Roy is the only one of the original 5 I dislike). His issues with father figure Aquaman were interesting. His death is one of those I mourn most.

I never got Azrael. Yeah, you can fly. So can Starfire. *And* she's super-strong. *And* she can shoot energy beams. *And* she'd look better than you do in that ridiculous outfit!

Wolfman/Perez run on the Titans introduced some rich backgrounds for Kory and Raven (and, potentially, Victor, although they never tapped that well), but holy crap, were some of the later characters pulled out of someone's nether regions...

Kole's parents gave her the power to make crystal and turned themselves into bugs? She was captured by gods and used to make pretty stuff for them? Azrael is an amnesiac alien that looks like an angel and acts like a chump? Oy. I can get better character ideas from They Fight Crime!

Back away from the china cat, when designing new Titans, guys!

Duela still rocks.

A meeting between her and the more modern interpretation of the Joker could be intense.

Kole's origin I can forgive, since she was created to die in Crisis. (Argh!)

I think Wolfman/Perez skimped on her origin AND her characterization in the Titans comic. She was unsure of herself and somewhat weepy. But boy, did they ever pour it on in Crisis itself! She was confident, optimistic, and powerful. She stopped Black Adam from beating up Dove and Robotman by turning him into crystal. Heck, she had so many moments I thought she was a Titans mainstay (I was unfamiliar with the team then).

I even liked her costume, though it was decidedly impractical (and must have been an awful pain to draw).

For that matter, Azrael wasn't awful in Crisis either. He never cried, not once (no, Pariah landed that role in Crisis).

Powers-wise, though, anyone can mop the floor with Azrael...

Whatever happened to Duela Dent:



Funny her waist looks trim ...

Kole is one of my favorite Titans. I still think of her as one of the main Titans despite her short tenure. And I've made up my own origin for her, something about her being some sort of mythological character the Titans of Myth were enslaving .... none of this mutant and kidnapped to the Titans of Myth realms.

*Keep it simple* when creating origins for new Titans. and drop the China Cat.

Maybe she's really Barbara Gordon ??? Or BatMan ??

In that last encounter, Duela was testing out a new formula that allowed her to temporarily assume the identity of 'Clayface's Daughter.'

Sbe hadn't worked the kinks out, hence the saggy jowls and appearance of being older than Dick.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

(And yeah, Kole was awesome. I love that power-set, and it seems to always be underused in comics. DC had Crystal Kid and Kole, and Marvel had Krystalin, from X-Men 2099, but none of them really got the kind of play that the dozens of visually/thematically-similar ice-creating characters seemed to get.)

Duela Dent:

Duela is Bob Rozakis's greatest gift to the world of comics. He had many. Rozakis was always more of a fan than a serious writer. His stories were crazy and fun, but frequently had major holes in them. That was just fine for the 12 year old me who eagerly bought all the issues of Duela's introduction in Batman Family and Teen Titans off spinner racks.

The holes and questions Rozakis left in Duela's origin followed her through all of her subsequent appearances in the DC universe. Every attempt to write her off failed. She always managed to make some bizarre cameo a few years later. Every attempt to give her an origin that made sense failed. Hero? Villain? Lunatic? Cypher? No matter where she appeared she always brought a sense of mystery and fun. I predict that her current state of death won't last. She will appear somewhere and somehow in the post Multiversity DC universe. Any writer who tries to make her a serious hero will be missing the entire point.

Ice vs. crystal, hmmm. I'm no scientist, so I wonder what the advantages of one versus the other are? Crystal has usually been depicted as having abilities to refract and focus light; and I guess it's advantage over ice is that when you use crystal to carry bystanders, you don't have to worry about giving them frostbite...

Todays a Double Du Jour ... or ... DU JOUR DOUBLE

<span style="font-size: 24px;">KOLE</span>



Since he's being discussed already.

She's now the center of attention of three of the the four Titans threads ... (besides the top featured two. )

AND ...

<span style="font-size: 24px;">GOLDEN EAGLE </span>

Charlie Frickin Parker!



Who starred in the very last Titans Comic I bought 'Secret Files and Origins Teen Titans' I think from 1989.

Catching up...

Aquagirl - LOVE! Especially her costume/look. I read Crisis before I became a Titans fan though so I've probably found it easier to make peace with her death there than some.

Azrael - While not exactly a *fan* of this character, I do think he has a LOT of potential. He has a great 'look' for one thing and all sorts of things could be done with his powers/story. I'd actually really love to see this character come back toughened up. (Or I would have if I was still reading DC Comics and thought that managament there cared one iota about this era and its characters rather than the Young Justice-ification of the Titans universe.)

Duela Dent - A lot of fun. I'm probably not as much a fan of her as I am nearly all her 70s teammates but that could just be because I've unfortunately missed most of her stories.

Kole - LOVE! I've made more comments about her in her outfit thread but this is a character that I was formerly at peace with being gone, but would now love to read new stories about again. It's a shame that I don't see a place for her at DC ever again though.

Golden Eagle - My first exposure to him was the issue he died in and man was it a great one! Titans Hunt was a really excellent storyline IMO! (With the exception of that saggy Team Titans focused/War of the Gods interfered middle.) Even though I'd never seen him before my first thought was - sucks to lose such an awesome looking character. (I am a big fan of George Perez-style busy costumes, if you can't tell.) He's probably the least-developed of all the 70s Titans but he has potential. I really need to read that run of Hawkman that he appeared in!

Wow, just realized I forgot to comment on Duela.

I loved her as the daughter of Two-Face who was crafty enough to make Dick Grayson really wonder at her identity. I think she should have been kept that way, but maybe make it ambiguous as to whose daughter she really is.

Kole - I agree with Blacula in that Kole seemed to represent a "purer" time. She was just so... so... innocent! Even her wanting Jericho to make love to her was innocent - she saw it as an ultimate expression of love. Poor lovestruck Kole. Yet, she was innocent (and slightly naive) without being weak. If they could find a way to bring her back, that would be great.

Golden Eagle - also love the visuals. Not really a fan of his personality as written in his early Titans' appearances. Say, wasn't the poor guy turned into Forerunner's sex slave briefly? Man...

Yeah, that's, of all the strange things to happen to former Teen Titans, near the top of the list.

I'm really enjoying the return of <span style="font-size: 24px;">FLAMEBIRD</span> in the pages of Batwoman!





I was also introduced to her in ... Secret Origins Annual 1989.

I love Bette. Whether the writer is choosing to portray her as pestering or competent, I've always been charmed by her earnestness (and crush on Dick). I really like the concept of an average girl wanting real bad to be "one of the super-heroes" and glad we're finally seeing more of Bette's efforts to make that dream come true in Batwoman.

My introduction to her, as well as many past Titans, was in the JLA/Titans mini-series in the late 90s. Phil Jiminez's pencils and her tennis scene made her look a lot of fun.

As a catch up, I can't say I know much about Kole or Golden Eagle. I think Kole's a great visual and her brief and tragic heroic career definitely makes you sympathize and I like her well enough for it. Golden Eagle, like most winged characters, I'm not fully interested in for whatever reason. Whoops.

Golden Eagle suffered, I think, from his association with Hawkman, who may or may not be an Egyptian alien reincarnated police officer this month, and makes my brain hurt to even think about.

I don't understand how the Stargate movie, all about aliens in ancient Egypt, could be so freaking awesome, and Hawkman (and offshoot characters like Golden Eagle) could be so blah.

Power Girl has a crazy stupid variable origin, too, but at least she has enormous chesticles to distract the reader from how little she makes sense... If Golden Eagle wore assless chaps or something, nobody would care if he made sense.

If Golden Eagle wore assless chaps, he'd never get around to heroing because everyone would make him a sex slave!

As for Bette, I fell in love with her while reading JLA/Titans too. Glad she was one of the obscure characters to benefit from recent years. Her climb to being taken seriously as a hero was fun to follow, and goes to show that determination and spirit count for as much as natural powers do!

The introduction to Betty Kane's first appearance in 1961 says it all, I guess:

"Criminals beware! A new crime-fighter is coming your way! You thought you had trouble battling Batman and Robin -- You thought you had to be wary of Batwoman -- but wait till you come up against a pretty teen-ager! You better scram -- take it on the lam -- because here comes Bat-Girl!"

From the same issue:

Betty: How am I doing, Robin?

Dick: Not bad -- for a girl!

Betty: Dick!

Dick: What?

Betty: Never mind.

There's a reason why he was called "Dick".

He certainly went through the ladies ... even the 6' Tamaranean warrior who can blast holes through concrete.

I like the costume on Flamebird in that top picture.

Other than that, I got nuthin.'

After a certain number of them, all the line-swinging bat-peep spin-offs all turn into a blur, for me. Spoiler, Damien, whichever Robin we're up to, etc. Yawn.

I like Nightwing. Everyone else, Batman, Batwoman, Batwing, Batgirl, Bat-Boy, Bat-Toddler, Bat-Zygote, Bat-The-Gleam-in-the-Milkman's-Eye, Robin, Red Robin, Red Rage Robin, Yellow Fear Robin, can all go die in a fire.

Bette was recently ousted from Batwoman's tutelage ....

Batwoman told her something like "this is just a hobby for you, you're not even fighting for anything."

Which is exactly why I like Bette. Can't a girl just want to be a superhero because it's the right thing to do and she's awesome and athletically gifted ?

<span style="font-size: 24px;">SUPERBOY</span>






I actually really like Conner! I;ve never been a fan of the big three ...

Catching up -

* Flamebird: Love her! So great to see her getting some spotlight over the last couple years after the decades she spent in limbo. Totally agree about her fun-loving, fighting-crime-for-the-fun-of-it (and to attract Dick!) nature being the qualities that make her great. Making her all grim and gritty like the rest of the Bat-family would be a disaster IMO.

* Superboy: Loved his introduction and he had a great solo series back in the day. But hate him as a Titan. Super-characters should be kept OUT of the Titans IMO. I hated when Matrix-Supergirl was a member too. His period with the Titans ruined this character for me actually. He was one of my faves once upon a time - Geoff Johns made him a character I would not miss one iota if he were to be killed off.

Superboy grew up too fast. I liked his solo stuff, and loved his time in Young Justice, but, as a Titan, he got a little too serious (probably as a side-effect of how 'Teen Titans' seems synonomous with misery and tragedy, lately).

I sort of think of the scrawny kid in the tights-and-jacket and the bulky young adult in the jeans and t-shirt as two different characters.

I'm used to characters changing outfits, but Conner's changed outfits, powersets, personality *and* body-type, and it's all a little much. The difficulty is that I like some aspects of *both* of these stages of Conner's evolution as a character...

hmm this 'Titans Connor' seems to have been very different or have had some stuff happen to him. I'm curious about the polarity now!

I am more interested in him as a clone and having most of the super powers than i've been interested in anything super, bat, or wonder in a long time. Conner seems the most relatable and understandable IMO.


I liked him in the Legion too. I'm also curious about the cartoon superboys who seem to have anger management problems.

my old avatar:

And because she looks awesome in skintight clothes!

Re Connor, I iked the teen stage where he was going through growing pains. He was more mature than Bart then, but still very much a teen I could relate to.

The much requested:
<span style="font-size: 24px;">BUMBLEBEE</span>

I prefer Bumblebee full sized and with Mal. She should be a major player in the DC universe. How do we make that happen?

One of my absolute fave DC characters and HELL YES to wanting her full-sized and back with Mal again!

I adore the Perez version of her outfit and wish she would go back to that rather than the unexciting (though still kinda cute) Teen Titans Go! one or the ugly, Queen Bee retread look she's sporting in that Doom Patrol pic.

She totally could (and should!) be a major player in the DCU too. She's DC's FIRST black female hero! (Mal is only beaten as DC's first black male hero by Vykin of the Forever People who debuted a month or two before him I think.)

I gave up on Giffen's Doom Patrol so I'm not sure what he did with her there, but Geoff Johns seems to be a fan so hopefully he'll do something with her (and her husband) down the line somewhere.

<-------- still can't believe Mal & Karen survived their fairly prominent roles in Infinite Crisis! I read every issue of that series with a tissue handy, ready for their inevitable killing - and it never came! Such a relief!

Bumblebee with her take-charge kick-ass attitude was one of my favorite adapted characters in the Teen Titans cartoon. The comic book version, I'm less familiar with, but I liked her in the old days, long before the Doom Patrol 'stuck at six inches' stuff. (Who said every member of the Doom Patrol had to have something wrong with them? Elasti-Girl didn't have anything wrong with her!)

I never much cared for any iteration of Mal, 'though.

Dead to me.

I j'adore Karen, as is well known.

I've been thinking about Donna Troy quite a bit lately. Absence makes the heart grow fonder and all that, I guess.

For a character of perpetually uncertain origin (not that that really means all that much) and sometimes nebulous relationship to her 'mentor', she sure leaves a hole, at least for me.

Whereas Diana is manifestly 'touched' by Athena (or was till this fathered by Zeus business), Donna, I feel, could well have been especially gifted by Hestia, goddess of the hearth. Oh, she's still a warrior (though whenever she says she is, I kind of cringe)- but I think the more central trait of her character is that of creating connections with people. She's the kind of character that will make of whoever surrounds her a family.

Which isn't a thing to be sneezed at. In fact, what if Amanda Waller recognized this trait and exploited it by recruiting Donna for a new Secret Six or a less-death filled group than the Suicide Squad?

She shares this trait with Dick Grayson- a similarity that makes them more sibling-like than most brothers and sisters.

Nurture has long been considered primarily feminine. Is that why it is discounted so? Could a super-strong woman who flies and can take out 99.999%, but is at heart a nurturer not still be an effective heroine?

I wonder...

...and I agree. That was a beautiful post, Todd, and it makes me miss Donna more than ever.

Demeter is more of a fertility / agriculture / nature / seasons sort of diety, with Hestia being the (woefully underappreciated!) goddess of hearth and home, IIRC.

Donna did always seem to be very much the 'heart' of the team (and Dick the brain, not necessarily in the 'smart' sense, but in the one that provides direction). (It was also cool that she was the 'paragon' or powerhouse of the team, the flying brick, usually occupied by a Superman-like figure.)

She had a special relationship with Dick (that transcended romantic, as you say, more like siblings, which is wicked rare for a comic book relationship between a non-related male and female character, to the point that some writers can't even write *actual* brothers and sisters without throwing in dubious romantic subtext...).

She had a powerful friendship with Kory, and, passed the 'test' of talking to Kory about stuff other than guys.

She had a bit of a big sister vibe with Garfield, and, back in the pre-Wolfman/Perez day, with Wally (who would flirt with her, but it was never taken seriously).

With her mystical background, and her extremely empathic nature, she would have been a natural to become good friends with both Raven and Cyborg, but, IMO, the appearance of he-who-shall-not-be-named in her life, sidelined her from being as well-integrated into the team as she could have been.

One thing that struck me soon after the introduction of Cassie Sandmark, the second Wonder Girl, was how utterly irreplaceable Donna was, in personality and nature. I've come to accept a new Robin, a new Superboy, a new Speedy, a new Kid Flash, even, begrudgingly, a new Aqualad, but every time I see Cassie, I am struck instead by how much she fails (for me, anyway) to live up to Donna's role and legacy as Wonder Girl.

I never understood why DC couldn't just leave Donna's Wolfman/Perez origin as-is. There was nothing wrong with it, for crying out loud.

I enjoyed the Titans cartoon quite a lot, but still felt like there was something missing without Wonder Girl there.

Buy the company.

Bumblebee is awesome in Tiny Titans. Once you've read her there, Mal is yesterday's news. She BELONGS with Plasmus, darn it!

(Though I think my kids will seriously flip out when they "graduate" to older books and find out that Plasmus is evil and that he and bumblebee aren't a couple)

I love Bumblebee, and one thing I didn't appreciate about the JLA/Titans story was how they made her out to be a D-rate hero. Supergirl (Matrix) goes to Zauriel, "Look at who you're assaulting? What can BUMBLEBEE do to you?", while Gar goes, "The gang's all here... and I do mean EVERYONE."

Good thing animated Bumblebee showed them.

Re Donna and family, I can't think of anything more to add. Wonderful posts.

You're right- I changed it after your tip. Guess I woefully underappreciated good Hestia myself! Forgive me, goddesses (never a good idea to insult a god... )

Maybe that underappreciation has extended to Donna.

Whereas even in this period, I think of her as the heart of the team. Even when there isn't a team. She also had a close friendship with Lilith. And I think she was closer to Garth/Aqualad/Tempest than anyone outside of maybe Grayson.

You now who I always wanted to see her paired up with? Either as a better friend or as a lover? Red Star.

An especially creepy image of Terra:




It's kinda the opposite of Dave's Bumblebee image.

Just to get some Eduardo Barreto goodness out there ...
<span style="font-size: 24px;">JERICHO</span>








He was actually a fantastic cover artist! His Raven, Starfire, Wally as Flash, and Donna were especially beautiful.

Not a big fan of Jericho, but I *love* the art of him Mr. Barreto did for Bill Walko!

Jericho is probably the ultimate example of "the whole not being equal to the sum of the parts" for me.

He ticks a lot of boxes that I like but for some reason I just don't really like the character -

* A (rare) blonde male hero... check.
* A very original power... check.
* A power that creates interesting visuals/stories... check.
* A great name... check.
* A funky costume that just lands on the 'great' side of the line between 'great' and 'awful'... check.
* An interesting back-story... check.

And yet... I'm just not that into him. I have no idea why.

IMO his best showing was as the villain in Titans Hunt. That was such a great twist and his ultimate ending there was tragic but necessary. As much as I HATE it when characters get killed off in comics, sometimes the story really earns that death - and Marv Wolfman is one writer who was really able to make a death seem important and necessary to a story - Terra, Jericho, Golden Eagle, all the deaths in Crisis - every one of them had an impact on me.

I would have preferred Jericho stay dead after that story, but unfortunately they decided to bring him back and turn him into a full-on murderer (rather than just one who had been possessed by some mad spirits) who killed Wintergreen in Teen Titans and then some random civilians in that wretched DCU Decisions series, and then had the Titans promptly forget all of that and allow him back onto the team!?!

That type of crap writing is exactly why DC needed to be rebooted. A shame then that those writers are still with the company.

Not a big fan of Jericho as well. He just didn't work, despite all of what Blacula listed above.

In GAMES, it was revealed he's a bit of a playboy too - one page showed him dating as many as seven women all at once. Yet, that didn't make me like him any more, even though I know he's probably really giving love and not just using them for sex. I dunno why. He's written as a really great, sensitive, caring guy, but I just find him *meh*.

I like that idea. Both Donna and Red Star know what it's like to balance human passions with their high power levels and their duties to others. If snyone could really relate to Leonid on a deep level, it would be Donna. It's certainly more believable than Red Star and Pantha...

I thought Jericho was a real jerk to Kole especially after they made such an effort to say how sensitive and nice he was.

He was always like "I'm just not that into you Kole."

... and Kole is awesome.

I did like his costume (a bit dorky but beautifully done) but, I'd prefer to have Raven be able to possess people as one of her powers rather than have Raven and then this other guy that can do one thing.

I really did like his inclusion in the Judas Contract but maybe making him a full Titan after that is what failed for me. I mean he was ok .... but ... I much prefer most if not all of the other Titan's getting screen time than him playing his guitar shirtless.

I liked Jericho, but he felt, at times, a little too much like a writer's pet. (Even in his introduction, where Dick is all crazy impressed by his power, despite being in bed with a hot alien flying super-strong person who can blow up buildings by pointing at them.)

I did like the idea of a child of a major foe becoming part of the team, and I loved the way that Perez depicted his eyes turning black, except for the green irises, when he used his power. That was a really striking visual.

The mute thing, while diverse and whatever, seemed like a narrative hindrance, in the sort of way that having him be in a wheelchair or something, would not have been.

In the end, he succumbed to the 'children of bad-guys must inherit their parents mad/crazy/evil' curse, and flipped out. In comic-book-land, being a criminal or assassin or whatever appears to be an inheritable trait...

Of the various Titans who have been 'hard done by,' Jericho feels like one of the more egregious examples to me. Introduced as a big deal new character, didn't really ever make the splash he seemed to be intended to make, and then villain-ized and discarded.

Unlike Terra, who was created to fulfill the horrible destiny planned for her, Jericho's turn to evil felt far less organic and more 'I'm done playing with this toy, so, in a fit of pique, I shall utterly wreck it!'

I love you for saying that, Peebz!

In fact, if Jericho had let Kole come along with them to Tamaran - she'd be alive right now!

Jericho must die! (kidding)

His recent bouts of insanity/evilness are also a major waste of his return. Ah well...

<span style="font-size: 24px;">GAR LOGAN </span>

I had a huge, and I mean <span style="font-size: 18px;">huge</span> crush on Jericho starting pretty much from when he first appeared.

<span style="font-size: 18px;">So</span> not interested in anything to do with him turning crazy-evil.

And now, an important message for whoever came up with such an utterly dumbass idea... <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Shut up, DC! La la la... fingers in my ears! <span style="font-size: 16px;">I can't HEAR youuuuu!!</span><span style="font-size: 11px;">And by the way if you were drowning I'd throw you a rock! Ppphhhtt!</span></span></span>

In one of the last episodes of the Teen Titans anime series, Jericho and Mal/Herald/Hornblower/Gabriel/Vox/Whatever team up to rescue the rest of the Titans from the Brotherhood of Evil.

We get to see how absolutely A-list the powers of these two actually are.

Poor Gar, overshadowed I always liked Gar. Not when he was first a member; oh, I like that he matured and how his wisecracking was a way to hide his insecurities blah blah. The biggest appeal for me, though, was in later years when he became sort of the bridge between the older Titans and the younger ones.

His powers are useful, although his always becoming green animals limits their utility in subterfuge and espionage.

I've always found myself preferring characters who can use animal abilities without actually shapeshifting into animals (Animal Man, Vixen), or those who can take on the form of a single animal (Wolfesbane), to someone like Beast Boy / Changeling.

Too often, IMO, Garfield has highlighted how unprepared some artists are to handle illustrating a variety of animals. George may not have gotten all of his details exactly right, but he at least seemed to give it a good solid effort.

In the last twenty years, I've seen a half-dozen artists take on Garfield's shapeshifting, only to reveal that they appear not to have even *tried* to Google a picture of a wolf or whatever, before drawing Gar turning into one.

He's gotta be a wicked challenging character to prepare for, artistically, since, unlike Chameleon Boy, who can take on hundreds of forms, but isn't expected to 'get them right' (since they are mostly made-up alien beasties), we all have ideas of what a horse, boa constrictor, eagle, bear, etc. look like, and the majority of comic book artists seem to be able to capably draw humans and gorillas, and everything else is gonna be a crap-shoot...

That was a *GREAT* episode wasn't it TT#1!

As for Gar Logan - great character. I used to really like him. I just love the weirdness of a character that turns into green animals. Who even thought that up? And he was even more weird/hilarious back in the old days when they weren't green but had that little tuft of hair or whatever it was on them to identify him.

He's also an example of a writer taking a little-used, D-list older character and breathing some new life into them with some TLC. Instead of just killing them off for bathos for the big-shot, A-list characters. Marv Wolfman did a great job of mixing the old with the new in his Titans run actually.

After he left however, Gar Logan's cache really dropped unfortunately. No one's really known what to do with him since. I totally disagree with IB about him being a good link between the older Titans and the younger ones. Making him the elder statesman amongst the Young Justice crew pretty much killed his character for me. It was a bad fit IMO - not every character needs to 'grow up'.

And don't get me started on that icky Raven non-romance that some fans seemed to be wanting to graft onto the characters. That was fan-fic invading the books at its worst.

Raven and Garfield have had a strange journey, romantically.

She started out using her empathic powers to make Wally fall in love with her so that he'd join the Titans.

His big romance was with Terra, and it's impossible to say how much it mattered to her, since she was so far past 'unreliable narrator' by the time she threw it in his face as to render what she said to him almost meaningless (since she was deliberately trying to both hurt him and kill him at the time...).

The hopeless romantic in me, back in the day, wanted Kid Flash and Raven to eventually move beyond the 'you made me fall in love with you to use me!' drama that got pretty much abandoned, and develop into a real relationship.

Terra could have been redeemed or returned in a mature story arc, by someone like Wolfman himself, but other attempts to do so have, IMO, have fallen flat, and I've never really felt a connection between Garfield and anyone other than Terra, Kory & Donna, Elasti-Girl, Victor and Dayton. None of them but Terra were suitable romantic interests, and a returned Terra would have required better writing than we've seen since those days, IMO.

Indeed, her last crazy over-the-top rant could easily be read as her attempting to virulently deny that the moments she shared with Gar meant anything to her, since she considered that side of herself weak and pathetic. It's not an uncommon thing to see in film or novels, a character who is trying to be 'hard' and expresses contempt for 'weakness,' only as a mask to cover their own insecurites and fear of being vulnerable.

There was a scene in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer TV show where Buffy's mind is switched into the body of a rival Slayer named Faith, a 'bad-girl' who has gone completely off the deep end, and vice-versa. Faith, in Buffy's body, is beating the holy crap out of Buffy, who is currently trapped in her body, punching her in the face over and over, screaming about how much she hates her, and there's no missing the subtext, that she's screaming into her own face how much *she hates herself.*

That's kind of where I felt Terra was heading. Like some of the Thunderbolts, many years later, growing to enjoy the pretense of playing hero and living that life, until the line blurs and they suddenly realize that they like the people they are pretending to be, better than the people that they've been in the past, I think Terra's violent rejection of the life she had as a Titan stems from how much it was affecting her, to have friends who weren't just looking out for themselves, or using her, or whatever.

Unfortunately, when she was brought back, there was the 'is she, isn't she?' teasing, and no dealing at all with these sorts of issues. What could have been a complex and rocky road to redemption (with some backsliding and false starts, perhaps) was instead just sort of 'left for later,' and then, there never was a 'later.'

That's a relatively common issue with serial comics these days, is that writers introduce concepts that they intend to milk over a slow burn of a dozen issues or so, but then the situation changes, or the creative team is swapped around, or the comic is cancelled, and the idea is just flat-out abandoned, leaving dozens of instances of characterization that just sort of fell apart, because the writer decided to eke it out over a time period that he simply did not have the luxury of counting on.

(Pretty much every Alpha Flight reboot has suffered from this, IMO. Whatever grand ideas the writers had never amounted to a fat stack of jack, because they dragged it out until the book was cancelled, and then whined about how great it was going to be if they'd only had another year to dither around and spin their wheels...)

Changeling was always one of my favourite Titans up until around the aftermath of Titans Hunt when Wolfman jumped the shark. When I played superheroes as a kid I always used to be him.

I love quirky powers, and I loved that despite his absolutely messed up past Gar was always generally pretty angst-free. Back in the classic Titans days, Gar's insecurities and fear of losing his loved ones would come up every now and then, but they were always dealt with in a really mature way and it wasn't something we needed to be smacked across the head with every three issues like Batman's MY PARENTS ARE DEEEEEAAAAAAD (in fact quite a lot of the Titans could probably teach Batman a thing or two about healthy grieving)

The 90's weren't really kind to Gar, and I don't think he's ever recovered. Even though he's Vic's best friend he wasn't seen as being part of the core Titans in the JLA/Titans mini and he wasn't really a core player in the Titans at all again for a long time. Then he inexplicably takes on a more serious characterisation when he does come back, but changes his name back to the more juvenile Beast Boy. The Beast Boy name works perfectly for toon Gar; it's silly for the regular DCU Gar to go back to that after years of being called Changeling and when he is specifically trying to present himself as a more adult figure.

I also hate the Raven thing. With a passion. Then again, I could rant for another few paragraphs pretty easily about how much I hate what they've done to Raven now, so maybe I'll just leave it there...

CYBORG

Apparently Cyborg is wildly popular? who knew ... but he's been on two cartoons ... decades apart, and is not only alive in the new 52 but in the Justice League!

Best friend of Gar Logan and the future Robotman! He's been unlucky in love though. and life sort of ... considering the whole accident that required he be turned into a cyborg.

btw it is 2013 can't they find some non metal body parts ... things have come a long way ... we can grow skin in the real world! is cloned body parts so hard to beleive in the comic world!

There was the two parter where he had Promethium fleshy bits grafted back on. Everything in Titans is made of Promethium. But the Fatal Fearsome Five bust in as he's recuperating. Poor Victor ends up melting on the sidewalk.

Poor Vic.

I confess, he has never been my favorite, not like I don't like him but ... he seemed too broody in the original Titans series and I always preferred characters with innate powers.

tv star




chillin with the justice league in the early 80s




doing drugs




ice skating with kids




THERE'S EVEN A BIZARRO CYBORG!




really I mean, he's cool an all but what is with the popularity???

He used to get angry a lot:

I don't know what "mars will send no more means" ... maybe he is drunk and/or high.

He's mistaken the Martian Manhunter for a scout of a Martian Invasion.

I neither like nor dislike Cyborg. I just don't have much to say about him one way or another: powers, personality, costume, nothing.

I feel the same way about Colossal Boy.

This looks like something the Fat Albert gang came up with in the junkyard.

That mischievous Mr. Mxyzptlk! Encouraging Bizarro to make Bizarro super-friends and then train them on Earth!

super bizarro looks so proud.

It is difficult for me not to read Cyborg with the voice he had in the Teen Titans cartoon. It was great how he and Beast Boy were friends and foils to each other.

Cyborg was one of the more together Titans on the toon, and if I remember right his status as half-man half-machine didn't bother him too much.

If I could bring only one toon Titan to a fight, it'd probably be him out of the 5.

Most of the Wolfman/ Perez Titans were angst driven. I think that one of the tricks was to have it there, but add it into the other events so things didn't get too bogged down.

Cyborg- Athlete trapped in a cyborg body/ father issues.
Changeling - Dead parents/revenge
Robin - Out of Batman's shadow/ maturing
Starfire - Slavery/ Family issues
Raven - family issues/ control
Wonder Girl - possibly the exception
Kid Flash - uncertainty/ power-health issues

Cyborg initially came across as another angry black man stereotype. While it was to show the frustration of being trapped in a body he didn't really want, it still didn't look great. It was toned down pretty quickly.

I liked Victor Stone a lot as a character, particularly with the kids, Sarah Simms and his growing friendship with Logan. I just never quite got past the angry jock, oh but brilliant scientific mind too combination. I think they said it was partly because he had to maintain his new body and party through growing up with scientist parents. It just seemed a little forced, or sudden at the time.

Cyborg's another in a long line of heroes who excel at both athletics and science. In Batman's case it was out of drive and persistence, while Mr. Terrific is just naturally gifted.

Cyborg... I wasn't that big a fan of him being a brilliant mind either, but at least they confined it to areas where it would make sense (robotics and mechanics).



And then they went and rewrote her origin, and also broke up her (initially happy) marriage to Terry Long

I think the disconnect came because he clearly hated his father, and what happened to him. But at the same time must have been reading everything his parents were working on all along.

As for poor Terry, one of the editors really, really wanted him dead. He couldn't understand why Donna would "settle" for him.

It would have been more believable, I think, if Vic had only learned mechanics AFTER his accident. I can't remember which was the case though, alas.

I don't think Silas ever forced Vic to read up on science, did he? Perhaps Vic did, just enough, so that Silas would lighten up on his love for sports. If he were super intelligent, some of that knowledge would have stuck.

As for Terry, I suppose it didn't help that he wasn't exactly excelling in his own career back then. That might have led to the impression that Donna was "settling".

I think Vic also ran with a bad crowd briefly, in between athletics and hating his father. Presumably the gang would hang around corners reading Popular Mechanics in an intimidating fashion.


I always got the feeling that Terry's writers block was Wolfman's cry for help in the title

I think this was exactly the case! except I thought it was even less believable because he was a super science genius ... and I don't think that kind of genius can be "picked up" I think it requires a passion that he would've had as a child or to some extent.

idk maybe he was a genius as a kid and got into sports to rebel?

The Cyborg issue of the Titans mini series shone some more light on all of this I think.

I think the best explanation would be - Vic was always smart, but only had a passion for sports. Then, after the accident, he was forced to learn about mechanics/robotics in order to maintain himself because he was too proud to go to his dad for help. He only learned as much as he needed to know, and only learned about what interested him.

very possibly. I'm sure Wolfman had it all thought through. A bit of disconnect frm the first issues, but expanded upon in th emini series.

Now for something completely different!

SHIMMER AND MAMMOTH

Mammoth was very protective and a bit dim, while Shimmer was a bit cruel in my memory. Not anywhere near as bad as Psiomon though.

That's Dr Jace in the page above. Not long after that, I'm sure we get to see Psimon pop various veins out along her face and neck. Icky.

I'm trying to remember what happened to shimmer, but Wolfman agreed to shake things up by slaughtering his supporting cast. Didn't Mammoth get a brain injury?

The Fearsome Five were a good, fun group of antagonists. Well characterised and covering a number of bases - The Gadgeteer, the Brick, the Psionicist, the Energy Projector and Shimmer as a wild card.

- Bah My Teen Titans mini is still in storage.

WONDER GIRL (CASSIE SANDSMARK)



As much as I love pre-DCFU Cassie, I actually hesitated to post about her in this thread, because while she was my favorite member of Young Justice, I think her portrayal in Teen Titans was a travesty.

In YJ, as written by Peter David (who raised four daughters), Cassie started out as an adorable, awkward, insecure tomboy and, by the end of PAD's YJ run, had evolved into a bright, poised, confident, authoritative young woman. I especially love the scene in the camping party issue (#7) where she describes the whole Young Justice trip (and superheroing overall) as something grand and mythical.

But then YJ was cancelled, she was moved over to Teen Titans, and Geoff Johns turned her into a whiny, clingy, needy wimp. He also made the horrible mistake of confirming that the previously-dropped-in-Wonder-Woman's-book hints of her being Zeus's daughter were true. That took away all of her everygirl appeal.

I won't even get into the DCFU Cassie, except to say...

At least I'll always have those YJ back issues.

Young Justice era Cassie, who will always be the real Cassie to me:

I loved her in YJ 50 (invasion of Zandia). It was tough but she showed she could rein in a humongous group of teen heroes.

Yeah! And SloBo, of all people, took her side when the Wonder Twins sassed her!

Score one more for Cassie!

I also found the "shotgun" scene hilarious. "Slobo drives because he's our best pilot, and Impulse gets shotgun because it's HIS ride!"

Yeah...God, YJ was a treasure trove of wonderful moments.

To give proper credit where it's due, I should mention that Cassie was created by John Byrne during his Wonder Woman run. Ironic, though, that PAD, with whom Byrne has been feuding for over 30 years, would be the one to evolve her.

My love for all things YJ is complete and thorough.

Mine, too, Lash.

I still feel guilty I that I never got off the ground with the YJ re-read. Maybe later this year...

I really should do that too. Gotta catch up on my current stuff though. I think a fine time to reread will be when Marvel does their own CRISIS and I drop the entire line.

I'll try to be done with the Hulk re-read by then, so that maybe we could re-read YJ together. Wouldn't that be awesome?

Indeed!

That was also my favorite portrayal of her. She had some real fire, and the rare ability to ride herd on that otherwise unmanageable group of cats. Her frustration at being shoehorned into the 'adult in the room' position, since, clearly, nobody else was able to take on that role (save perhaps Tim, who didn't want it), was hilarious.

And then, Johns' Cassie, who was all relationship drama. Yawn.

I actually prefer the NuDC version of Cassie to the John's version, even if the NuDC version is strictly inferior to PAD's version...

(The Tim/Cassie relationship seemed weird, in that it felt like *both* of them were pretending the other was Conner, or trying to touch / hold onto whatever was left of Conner in the other... Freak-ay!)

Poor, confused Tim and Cassie...

All this really makes me want to go and buy more YJ issues.

When I first saw this Wonder Girl I wondered what they'd done to Vanessa "Nessie" Kapatelis. Since I hadn't read any of the titles in such a long time, I got my Cassie and Nessie confussed.

I've never read Young Justice and only dipped in and out of the Titans with her in it.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

Nessie became the second Post-Crisis Silver Swan for a while, because she was so jealous of Cassie getting more of Wonder Woman's attention. I loved most of the things about Phil Jimenez's Wonder Woman run, but that was not one of them.

Without having read any of what led up to that, it would seem that Nessie forgot all the lessons that Diana was trying to teach everyone. Not the best outcome there.

I think Nessie eventually got better, right? I'm glad she did. Her dialogue as the Silver Swan was quite bad.

She did get better, at the end of the Gail Simone WW run. I'm not particularly a fan of Gail's writing, but I do give her credit for that.

Thank goodness! Our heroes could use a little less drama in their lives.

YOUNG JUSTICE, one great run of comics.