I've enjoyed the first two issues ... while I'm not sure how long they can (or are willing to) keep up the gimmick of the forest, so far it's made an interesting backdrop ... Hal and Ollie had some good moments (especially in the "Don't-call-it-the-Arrow-Cave") in issue 2, the ending of which

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Ollie gets shot with an arrow in the forehead</span></span>

may result in a quick reveal about the nature of the forest ...

It's not REALLY that much of a shock considering they solicit him in the next three issues.

Read #1. Pretty shitty story.

Def not reading #2.

He was shot in the head with an arrow... and he lived.

Can somebody please tell me the point of that cover if you know well enough he's gonna live?

What they made Green Arrow do in Cry Justice has put me off the character. I don't foresee ever reading Green Arrow again.

This whole thing has put me Arrow forever. Him AND Black Canary.

But the Dennis O'Neill stories are still good.

Though I'm no fan of Cry for Justice, I would add that Ollie's being a killer is not without precedence. Mike Grell had him kill some baddies during his long run on the character beginning with The Longbow Hunters, and it's generally a well-regarded era for the character.

I have not read Longbow Hunters. So I don't know the circumstances around those killings. Were they as premeditated as the murder of Prometheus or did they occur in the heat or immediate aftermath of battle?

More than the killing of Prometheus, it was having Green Arrow say "justice" right after. I screamed (in my mind) "That's not justice! That is revenge!"

At least it wasn't Lian telling Roy to gut somebody like a pig.

Ollie has killed before, under Grell and Dixon. His hunt in Cry For Justice isn't that out of character, tho this particular killing was more premeditated.

The cover for issue #3, and Ollie's surviving an arrow to the head leads to learning the forest of Star City has healing powers. It does progress the story, so it's not totally misleading.

This new series chock full of navel gazing. The pacing is drawn out, too much of Ollie's inner monolouge is rehashed guilt. There's one more GA issue in my future- anything less than stellar and I drop the book.

I stop buying Green Arrow.

When CJ drops Green Arrow, you know the title sucks.

For me personally, I've got the ability to forget pretty quickly what other creators have done with characters. So while I hate "Cry for Justice" and was appalled by it, it wouldn't put me off Ollie permanently.

What I can't forgive is a really crappy story. And that was what this was. Bad pacing, non-stop guilt-brooding, an annoying Ollie/Hal confrontation, a girl on the verge of getting raped (DC sure loves its rapists--I suspect some of the editors must fantasize about this?), corrupt businessmen exploiting a broken down city, etc. It's a series of cliches with no real meat to it.

They are obviously trying to copy what Grell did before and it comes off as unoriginal. They are invoking Katrina-ridden New Orleans in a way that rather than being poignant, comes of as exploitation (or at the very least, are trying to invoke 1980's era Los Angeles which feels outdated).

There were a lot of criticisms of Winnick on Green Arrow, and many of them valid, but in my opinion, whatever he did, he always was able to make it stand on it's own. He was carving out his own era in GA history. This feels like aping the past and just not being good enough to pull it off.

Thing is, I'm not entirely clear whether the Grell-era Ollie Queen stories are still in continuity. The reaction Ollie got to killing Prometheus makes me think that it might not.

In any case I gave the first couple issues a flip-thru. Even though I like the art style, I could tell that this wasn't a real must-have. Online reviews have backed this up.

I SO want a good Ollie Queen book because he is one of my very most favorite DCU characters. It looks like I'm not getting one any time soon. Kevin Smith brought Ollie back with a bang, Brad Meltzer's arc was pretty decent and the early Winick issues were very good. But after Winick's first year, it quickly turned into a sea of "meh" at best. And even a new direction and creative team haven't bailed Ollie out.

Actually, on second thought, there is a terrific Green Arrow comic being published right now! It's called "Hawkeye and Mockingbird", and it's being published by Marvel!

Isn't that the one where the writer boasted that it was 99% free of dead cats compared to any other archer related comic?

The Grell penned GA is/isn't in continuity, more so than any pre-Crisis/IC histories. Under Grell, Ollie was more real world urban vigilante, a real Avenging Archer. When Dixon took over, it was mentioned Ollie had killed a man once before, and he retreated to an ashram to make peace with it. Dixon had Ollie kill a second time (mentioned in story) and ending up at the same ashram, this time by mistake. It led to meeting Connor and his eventual death.

Since GA:Reborn (see: Kevin Smith's QUIVER arc) his killings have not been mentioned, merely alluded to when a character, usually Dinah, wants to point out how dark Ollie's becoming. Said killings have always been spur of the moment, life v. death situations. His hunting of Prometheus shows more forethought, deliberation, and selfish revenge than true justice, almost the opposite of his previous breaches of that particular moral code.

I can see Ollie crossing the line. He uses a bow and arrow! He developed his skills as a hunter. Under Grell, Ollie would stalk the most vile criminals, make a hard decision to take a life, and move on. He didn't relish the choice, but didn't agonize over it either. Ollie would shed his guilt faster than a tear for the men he killed (not that many,) seeing his work as means to protect and serve. Simple man, simple motif, simple justice.

Krull has Oliver bemoaning his current lot in life- something he brought about all on his own by killing Prometheus and revealing his ID (scarcely secret tho it may be.) This isn't a hardened hero, a lone man seeking to save a world from corruption. This is a weak man, wallowing in self pity, avoiding his life rather than stepping up to be the hero he claims to be. Fine for an arc, but drag this out much longer, without a SERIOUS slap to the face by Speedy, and this becomes a sad tale of misplaced misery.

Krull brought energy to the Titans during his BL mini. His wrap up of the GA/BC series had the same level of energy, excitement, verve. This new series lacks all of that. Sadly, it's probably timed to pace itself with Brightest Day (good book on it's own) and that's where DC is going wrong.

If Ollie is going to distance himself from the rest of the DCU, then distance his book. If Krull is as good a writer as he's been, the book will do just fine. Stand or fall, let Green Arrow be Green Arrow.

Hawkeye is great! He's no GA. Ollie is a hunter, Clint an action junkie. Ollie is a vigilante, Cline a super hero. I want my GA stories to involve ethical quagmires, blacks and whites and grays grounded on a level we can all appreciate. Hawkeye should be an over the top adrenaline rush, colourful adventures played out on a scale we all dream of, scaring us as often as exciting us.

Ollie and Clint have a lot of obvious but superficial similarities. You're right especially in that they lend themselves to very different kinds of stories. In any case I've always been attracted to both of them as characters. I guess it's their combination of roguishness and being able to fight alongside of the Big Guns despite not having any powers (not including Clint's run as Goliath).

In a way, though, Clint's a lot like Ollie used to be pre-Grell. No, Clint doesn't have Ollie's politics, but their gimmicks and especially their wisecracking wit and hotheadedness echo each other a lot. Pre-Grell (and beginning with Adams/O'Neil), Ollie's adventures weren't all that much in the street-level vein outside of the classic GL/GA runs. Mostly, he was a member of the JLA hanging out in a satellite and taking on super menaces with them. He was Mr. JLA for a long time like Clint is and was Mr. Avenger.

Ironically, Hawkeye's main squeeze has also been a bird-themed blond lady! I don't know how intentional this was when they were first paired up, but it's kinda hard to ignore!

So in a way the "Hawkeye & Mockingbird" can read at least superficially like the Bronze Age version of Ollie. So I'll continue to contend that it's the best GA book currently on the stands!

I normally hate seeing heroes kill and think it's a real tarnishing on the DCU that nearly every so-called 'hero' they've got these days has killed someone at one time or another.

And I have definitely never been a fan of any Oliver's killings in the past (except maybe that first one back in the... 70s I think which was an accident and which he immediately repented for at that monastery).

However, I have no problem with his killing of Prometheus. In fact I applaud it. Prometheus was an almost unstoppable serial killing freak who had already killed off way too many good DCU characters. There was only one way to see him stopped and Ollie found it. (Until a writer brings him back some day.) I wish Batman would do the same to the Joker and put us all out of that story/panel-hogging misery once and for all too!

In the real world I'm an opponent of the death penalty because I beleive that even the minutest risk of error is too great. In comics, however, where we are in no doubt of a character's guilt or innocence I do believe that the worst of the worst should be executed (ie Joker, Prometheus, Mr Zazz, a few others).

Regarding Green Arrow's current book - I haven't even looked at the previews. My ship of interest in this character (and his family) sailed a long time ago (thankyou Mr Winick). Very much a shame since if it hadn't been for Ollie and the wonderful way he was written/drawn in the old JLofA book I would not be a comic fan today.

I can't say I agree with you in the terms of Prometheus' deserved death.

He was a monster, a psychopath, yes.

But there are other ways to make a person suffer without killing them. Ways that can leave them BEGGING to be killed.

But was it about making him suffer, or was it about making sure he could never kill again?

ETA: Never read the story myself, so I don't know the answer to that question.

Good point. I should've realized that. Just disregard my last post.

GREEN ARROW (DCnU) # 1


Looks like Ollie's got a pretty sizeable reboot going on here.

He's younger, hipper, richer and has some fun backup folks he's working with.

The 3 new villains look promising, and the last page assured I will be back for # 2. No guarantees after that though, despite an unbeatable Jurgens/Perez art team.

Sorry, I found Green Arrow #1 CRAP-tacular!!
Pure & utter garbage.
Even Perez's faboo inks could not save Jurgen's rushed pencils or Krul's bland, by-the-numbers script.

GASP!!!

GASP!!! Time to stop being polite and start getting real!

GASP! Green Arrow is horrible?! How can this-my sarcasm isn't even worth this.

GASP!! I'm starting to feel bad that I was so honest, but guys, it just really sucked!!

GASP!!! I thought it was just okay (it was in my 'NOT BUYING # 2' stack)... until the end, which caught me!

Rhino, surely you liked the all-new all-now all-young Oliver?

GASP!!! Plus the writer looks like THIS:

That doesn't work on me.

GASP!!! Pull no punches reviews space-rawk!

Sure he was cute, but his dialogue with the CEO of his company has been done a gazillion times before in Batman, the hot, yet brainy computer chick is a total Oracle/Aleph(Global Frequency) rip-off, Krul's attempt at "hip-young" slang was laughable and the trio of edgy, media fueled villians were uninteresting.(when I saw one had electrical powers, I was hoping they would turn out to be a Legion founders homage-but no)
I'd say my biggest problem was with Krul's dialogue-so stiff & cliche!!

Hmmm. You have swayed me!

GREEN ARROW goes in the NO # 2 pile!!

TAKE *THAT*, JT Krul and your adorablesauce face!!!!

Worst line:
Green Arrow-"You're right. I have a lot of toys...but I don't play games!"

TASTE THAT CHEESE, JT Krul!!!!

I'd still do him. I bet he's a power bottom!

I hope so!!!! TAKE THAT CHEESE, JT KRUL!!!

*cackles nefariously*

My thoughts exactly... worst of the bunch so far...

Fresh off the pull no punches review by Rhino last night, I read Green Arrow with a keen eye! What I saw in my own opinion was a series that is at conflict within itself: a fantastic artist in Dan Jurgens trying to create a fresh, dynamic take on Green Arrow, with a writer in J.T. Krul who just can’t seem to find his voice.

First off, I really like the fact that with Green Arrow they got rid of his signature goatee, hood / hat and some other aspects. In 1970 or so they made a major change to his look and it was long overdue again. If they’re going to update Green Arrow, half-measures won’t work; its time to go for it.

With that in mind, I was even more thrilled by Dan Jurgen’s artwork, which I felt really was terrific all issue! Some great spy-action type moments in Paris, with a dynamic Green Arrow battling some weird super-villains. The composition was a balance between big superhero poses with tight multi-grid panels on some pages. I’ve always been a fan of Jurgen’s artwork so I enjoyed this. I’m not sure what Perez’s inks add to the pencils other than the expectation of a top-notch job (the guy’s a legend, no bones about it); however, I’ve always thought Jurgen’s very best inker was Brett Breeding. I’d love to see them work together again.

Meanwhile while a word balloon-less issue would have probably read great, the dialogue felt all wrong all issue here. It was disjointed, erratic and full of clichés. Compounded on that, Rhino revealed several big flaws such as the stereotypical CEO who argues with the company owner (Tony Stark has one of these every five years) and the mysterious woman who is an obvious Oracle analogue. Maybe these characters will grow interesting as time goes on; maybe not.

The brash opinionated pontiff is a role that has become part of the heart and soul of Green Arrow so I can’t fault Krul for playing that up. But it should be scaled back with a hint of subtly. That is, of course, unless Krul & Jurgens are purposely trying to show that this younger Green Arrow is still a bit too naïve and unrefined in his political and social opinions, but its too hard to figure out what the writers intentions may be.

The ending had Jurgen’s interesting a new slew of villains as he is apt to do (he’s definitely one of those artists that loves creating new designs for bad guys). Am I really curious to keep going. Well…eh. Enough to buy a few more issues, definitely.

Cobie Comparison: Did I enjoy it more than Justice League #1? No, I thought it missed the mark in two many places from a writing standpoint, so it was not more enjoyable than Justice League. I think between Rhino & Lash’s posts, I fall somewhere in the middle.

Now I never said I loved it or anything... It was on my 'NO for # 2' list until the last page got me curious about the slew of new villains.

But I def liked it better than LULZrhino.

I'm torn on # 2. I'll see how my funds go next month.

I must be the only person in the world who liked Green Arrow, except maybe J.T. Krul's mom. This despite the flaws which other people have pointed out - the dialogue, the trying so hard to be trendy and techy (and it took forever for Supercharge to charge up). Sure it's totally unrealistic, the superstar industrialist, rich, young and handsome, too with an array of unbelievable tools; maybe it reminds me of the 1960s and I'm 10 years old again. Don't look too closely, because the Q-Pad is probably manufactured by slave labour.

The thing is, I've always really really wanted to like Green Arrow but haven't much liked the book in recent years. I like the concept, how he's essentially Batman without the angsty past and anger. Ollie seems to be having more fun with playing superhero. You can see his downfall coming, he's going to get turfed out or ruined by Emerson, then he'll be poor fighting for the poor. Maybe.

Anyways, I think I'll keep it for a while and I hope Rhino will still love me, regardless of my taste in comics.

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!!!

Looks like GREEN ARROW will be co-written by KEITH GIFFEN and DAN JURGENS as of # 4.

Looks like I'm sticking around for it.

And JT himself just confirmed his exit from GA over on his Facebook page! Rejoice, Rhino!!

Did he provide a reason?

Apparently, "an opportunity came up that [he] really wanted to tackle" and he needed to drop GA to make time for it.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/09/19/jt-krul-leaves-green-arrow-stays-on-captain-atom/

...he's off GA after four issues, three of which haven't come out, but I had to suffer a year through Eric Wallace on Titans?

...the first step towards to acceptance is admitting your bitterness. The next step, road rage.

How interesting that this alleged opportunity comes along right after a legion of lukewarn GREEN ARROW # 1 reviews have been put on the internet...

i'm pretty willing to bet that the DC higher-uppities are paying a LOT of ettention to any and all reviews.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/09/19/the-dc-comics-white-board-of-doom/

Just so they know, this freelancer is well-prepared to co-pitch a MATTER-EATER LAD: THE SERIES comic, a MLL'Ester joint!

Giff and Jurgens? That's good enough news.

Sign me up for MEL: THE SERIES too.

I read #1 last night expecting not to like it based on the negative buzz, but I found that while it had its flaws, I overall enjoyed it. Maybe part of this was that I like Dan Jurgens' art--that never hurts.

I think it was that I enjoyed reading a version of Ollie that didn't have all that character's baggage and, well, who was younger. It's not that I have anything against older characters at all, but it seems that after a good start with Kevin Smith that Ollie just fell into a mess with different writers either having no idea what to do with him or making poor choices like all of that stuff that spun out of Cry for Justice. Basically, too much crappy stuff had been done with Ollie and his "family" to really be recovered from other than to start over.

I LOVE Marvel (Hawkeye) and DC's main archers when they're done right, and all-too-often, they are subject to misstep after misstep. Ollie's character here isn't as complex as the one we've known all these years. The only baggage he appears to have is some mysterious tragedy that happened that he feels he could have prevented. Maybe he'll emerge as more of the cranky liberal we're all familiar with. Maybe he won't. Having a clean slate could do him a world of good.

I liked that the book had a slightly retro feel to it. there was nothing terribly angsty in it. We're introduced to some new supporting cast and a subplot or two. We see an old school super villain battle in which Ollie shows his competence at what he does. Yes, it was definitely on the vanilla side and without much of an edge, but maybe that's just what Ollie needs at the moment to cleanse the palate after what came before. It kinda worked for me, at least.

I'm going to try to pick up the book at least until I see what Giffen and Jurgens bring to the table as writers. It's decent now, and I anticipate it'll be that much better when they take over.

Wow! This just in! So I guess Giffen/Jurgens were fill-ins? Ann's run on DD was a classic, so DC has my attention, at least!

J'adore Nocenti!
I guess I'll be givin' this title another shot.

Also thrilled! Love Nocenti and have been hoping for her to do a nice long run on a comic for years! Green Arrow seems like a perfect fit for her among DC's characters!

Wow, this is kind of a big deal here. DC's bringing not only sexy back but lots of long-lost creators!

Issue #2: pretty much more of the same, Ollie fighting a jet-setting gang who do snuff videos on youtube and create general mayhem. We learn that Q-Corp was Ollie's father's company. Ollie shoots hoops with an NBA star, has another run-in with the boss, and shows off some high-tech gear.

I spent most of the issue trying to imagine how his bow retracts to such a compact form.

At this point, Oliver Queen is a young version of Bruce Wayne without the psycho angst (as far as we know) - rich vigilante, no super-powers, lots of physical training and tech. He seems to view his Green Arrow as more of a game than a focused mission like Batman.

While #2 was almost exactly the same as #1, I kind of liked it a bit more for some reason. I'm really digging the artwork, so perhaps seeing Ollie in action against a wide variety of new super villains did it for me.

I'm really just eagerly awaiting Nocenti's arrival (someone should tell Fanfie!), but I'm hoping these issues still give me some enjoyment. I think Krul has one more and then Giffen joins Jurgens, so that should be a fun few issues too.

A little birdie did tell me, Cobie, and I'm guardedly optimistic.

What I liked about Ann's Daredevil was the way she mixed supernatural elements into the crime drama. Don't know if Green Arrow will afford her the chance to do that, but we shall see. I'm certainly intrigued by what her take on Ollie will be.

Ann Nocenti\'s views on Ollie

I have to say, at first I thought she was being a bit harsh, but I quickly came around to agreeing with her. Now I'm really looking forward to her arrival.

Wow, I'm surprised I'm not seeing more reactions to Nocenti's comments!

Well, I didn't find her harsh at all, I pretty much agreed with her as well. Don't know if I'll enjoy her swashbuckler version, unless she has Ollie learning a lot of tough lessons. At this point, he's young and full of potential. As Nocenti said, he needs chutzpah to carry off his Green Arrow game; however, we learned in Red Hood that he ripped off Roy Harper, so maybe he has too much chutzpah. Not that I'd want that changed, I'd just like to see him tempered, matured, deepened over time - for me, that's where the interest is in the Green Arrow character. If he just stays a swashbuckler, yawn.

FC, Nocenti put Daredevil through some VERY tough, life-altering lessons, so I have faith she'll do the same for Green Arrow.

I really wish Marvel would collect her entire DD run, instead of just the Typhoid Mary arc and the early issues of the road trip arc. I've said this in another thread, but it was the closest Marvel came in the late 80s to publish its own equivalent of DC's proto-Vertigo books.

Gotta love a DD writer who pits him against Mephisto!

Nocenti's DD run is my Dad's favorite in the characters history (including Miller and even Wally Wood) so her return to comics may be enough for him to read Green Arrow!

Lardy, yes indeed! It made perfect sense, and I'm sure other writers were tempted to do it before, but it was Nocenti who took the plunge and made a triumphant achievement.

Cobie, your Dad rocks!!

Man! I wish I had some idea where I've stored my old DDs! I'd LOVE to reread Nocenti's run. I remember how friggin' AWESOME that Inferno(?) tie-in was! The rest of the "event" was pretty shitty, but that double-sized Nocenti-written issue was TerRIFfic!

Fickles (which, btw, is SO much better than "Fanfie"! ), did you like Romita Jr.'s art at that point? I recall you've been outspoken about your distaste for his blocky style that debuted around that run and continues to this day.

Lardy, I think JR Jr's style worked perfectly for Daredevil, particularly with the kind of moody, creepy, atmospheric scripts Nocenti was writing. It's when he tries to do straight-ahead superheroics, like his second Uncanny X-Men run or his recent Avengers run, that I think he fails utterly.

Totally agree on the Inferno tie-ins BTW.

I recall he drew Mephisto differently than ANYone else--very creepy and otherworldly! I'd liken it to Simonson's reimagining of Surtur in his classic thor run. Too bad both depictions fell by the wayside....

Again, I totally agree. His Mephisto was like something out of a nightmare, where most Mephisto interpretations are utterly lacking in menace (excepting John Buscema, who drew Mephisto's first appearance.)

Guys, I have a question.

I'm not truly sure of all the details, but, I read that Green Arrow was raped by the woman called Shado, and everyone treated it like Ollie cheated on Black Canary.

Then, in the Blackest Night issue, did they retcon it as consensual sex?

Pretty sure that wasn't rape, Sarky. IIRC, it was basically Ollie being Ollie.

Thats how I remember it too.

Given how that era of GA did not shy away from that topic, there wouldnt be that much ambiguity.

I think he was injured or something, and she was caring for him while he healed up and....baung-chikka-WAOW-WAOW!

Thats why Ollie always gets injured!

Ollie was delirious from pain medications and so on at the time he first had sex with Shado, so the quality of his consent is questionable (hence the 'rape' interpretation).

One thing that's always bugged me about fandom's view of Ollie in the 90s was that he was a cheat on Dinah. Critics of the character always use that fault to disparage him but until that hack Judd Winick came along YEARS after the rumor started and had him cheat with Black Lightning's niece, Ollie had never actually done so.

The closest he ever got was the Shado 'rape' and a moment at a party when a teen stalker named Maryanne kissed him by surprise (which, in grand soap opera fashion, also happened to be the moment Dinah walked in and saw them).

You'd think a new Green Arrow writer would take the opportunity to put that malicious rumor to rest and build the character up. But no, Judd Winick never met a DC character he couldn't damage in some way so in his very first story with the character he goes out of his way to turn a false accusation against Ollie into a true one in the most sensationalistic way possible. And then the army of Green Arrow haters (of which there seem to be a lot, especially if you hang out on a Birds of Prey board) had even more reason to hate him. Gee, thanks Judd.

Judd Winick & Green Arrow = when bad writing happens to good characters.

Shado and Ollie had a definite connection. While I don't have perfect recall of the story in question, it seemed inevitable that something like this would eventually happen between them. In any case I don't ever recall Ollie ever expressing that he was violated. He definitely felt guilt over its implications for him and Dinah, though.

(Winnick certainly ran with the womanizing take, though.)

Shado and Ollie definitely had a 'connection' but IMO it was always more as kindred archer/warrior spirits than as 'lovers'. It's also true that the scene in question was vague (hence my referring to the rape as an 'interpretation') and that Ollie (as far as I recall) never referred to it as rape or reported it as such. But then, a rape doesn't have to be reported to exist.

I actually think the scene could be read either way and am not a strong advocate for either interpretation over the other.

One thing I do feel strongly about though is that it was an intense, vulnerable moment for Ollie when he was not in full control of his senses and thoughts, and it shouldn't be held up as evidence by the legion of Ollie-haters who want to paint him as a cad.

(Not that I'm saying anyone here was doing so but if you ask any Green Arrow-hater out there for a reason why and 9 times out of 10 they'll give you this one.)

<= Not a hater at all.

I've always liked Green Arrow, and Hawkeye as well at Marvel. Both are similar for obvious reasons and because, well, their personalities have been more distinct than most of their heroic brethren. I love their swashbuckling sensibilities and the real passion they seem to put into what they do.

Between the two, I've definitely been partial to Ollie. Doesn't hurt at all that Ollie had a long solo run with Mike Grell at the writing helm. Since then, he was killed off and mostly handled hideously ever since. I liked Kevin Smith's stories, had mixed feelings about Meltzer's arc and Winnick finally drove me off the book after a fairly strong start to his run.

So with all that in mind, I'm not so sure that even Grell's version has ever seemed like a monogamous type. **I always loved him and Dinah as a couple, though.** It always seemed inevitable that Ollie was going to stray eventually, and when Shado showed up, I knew something would eventually happen between them. I think maybe Mike was afraid to make it outright cheating in the end, so he created the scenario as it happened to smooth it over somewhat.

Heroes like Ollie's type are thrillseekers by nature. I distinguish this type from Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and many others in a way. Ollie was originally a rich guy who was not driven by some profound tragedy that drove what he did. This is not to lessen his heroism, but he is still primarily a thrillseeker living a testosterone-driven fantasy. He's less likely to live by society's rules and may ultimately not be satisfied in a monogamous relationship.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that he needs to **** anything that moves like Winnick seemed to have him do, but his not being able to keep a monogamous relationship seems to fit his character profile, IMO. I think he genuinely loves Dinah, but there's a narcissism there that will make it harder for him than most to truly commit, I think.

Lardy, Blacula, both you guys make really good points. I haven't read most of the stories in question, as what little I've read of the Grell run was not to my liking -- I found it too self-consciously "adult" and "serious" (I really wish Grell had been given Batman instead of Green Arrow.) To be perfectly honest, nobody since Denny O'Neil really seems to "get" Ollie IMO. The one who came closest for me was Mike W. Barr in the 1983 mini-series that Trevor Von Eeden drew, but even there Ollie was a bit too mellow.

It's a really hard balancing act for a writer between the devil-may-care thrill-seeker and the self-appointed savior of the downtrodden. Some talented (and some not-so-talented) writers have tried and failed; it's therefore inevitable that Ollie often comes off as a caricature. Nocenti is facing a considerable challenge, but I think she's up to the task.

I'm curious to see what Ann does as well. Difference is, this ain't the same Ollie! He's been de-aged and is much more of a clean slate. I suppose it had to be done, though, because Ollie's character had been ripped to shreds over the last few years.

I couldn't stick with the current series beyond issue 2 the way it was, so I'm awaiting next week's issue 7 to see if she can revitalize the character. I'm hopeful!

Agreed. While I'm still getting used to the idea of the clean slate, not just for Ollie but for most of the rest of the DC characters, I think Ollie needed it for sure.

Ollie and Roy were just demolished, especially in the wake of Cry for Justice. It's interesting that Donna and Wally are nowhere to be seen, but nu-Roy is around in the Red Hood and the Outlaws book and is probably about the same age as nu-Ollie. Has any relationship between the two been established at all in either series?

There was some reference that Ollie had done some nasty back-stabbing deal to screw Roy out of Q-Corp, which drove Roy into alcoholic depression. (Maybe both their fathers started the company? It wasn't stated. And I don't recall if this was stated in GA or Red Hood.)

I've kept with the series so far, mostly out of inertia, waiting for the Nocenti arc. It's been okay, but pretty pedestrian super-hero fare. I'm still hoping that the potential for a great non-superpowered character will be developed by Ms. Nocenti.

I liked Ann Nocenti's first issue.

Without spoiling much, she does a typically nice job of subverting sexist expectations with Skylark, her new triple threat to Ollie.

She also has a good handle on Ollie. He's not the caricature that he often becomes when writers aren't trying hard enough, but a believeable, likeable, flawed but sympathetic character.

Havent read it yet but I'm hearing good things!

Yeah, Rich Johnston called it "batshit crazy," but in context he obviously meant it in the best possible way.

Just read the first Nocenti issue.
Crazy, crazy, crazy!!
I loved it!!

Liked the story, didn't care for the art. Too cutesy.

Got to Nocenti's first issue today. It was kinda "batshit crazy" and in a good way! Not the best thing I've ever read, but it had some energy and gumption to it.

I also enjoyed Tolibao's hyperkinetic art. It had a little J. Scott Campbell influence to it and a touch of grit as well. I'd say as this guy develops, he can only get better and better.

I'm onboard for a few issues. So far Nocenti's take feels pretty fresh and not derivative of other takes on Ollie. Let's see where it goes!

I don't know if I've liked the Nocenti story so far or not. That's wishy-washy, but it was batshit crazy to the point that it reminded me of a movie like Airplane, satire and joking clichés. Everything was extremes. Maybe comparing it to a James Bond film would be more accurate. Nocenti has a reputation for dealing with social and environmental issues, but the problems related to Leer's takeover of the mine just seemed like a flippant side issue.

I figured with a name like Leer and three daughters there would have been more scheming and infighting among the girls, but the original Lear wasn't a villain, so that plot wasn't appropriate.

Interesting ending to the arc, though. It looks like Ollie has some challenges waiting for him back home, so I guess I'll stick with the book for a while.

I didn't really love this story. It was okay, but I found myself skimming after awhile--by the finale, I just didn't have any in investment in the characters, including Ollie, or the plot.

The art also through me off. I'm not sure if it was the mix with the colors or whatever, but I didn't find it appealing at all.

Sad to say I gave up on Green Arrow after the second Nocenti issue. It's not just that I thought her writing wasn't up to her standards -- it's mainly that I cannot find any way to invest myself emotionally in this "beardless youth" version of Ollie.

Ah, well, there's always the old stories to look back on.

I didn't much like the first Nocenti arc, although thinking about it she may have been saying something about how women will sell their souls - or abandon their independence - for the illusion of love. (Assuming true love would not demand you give up your independence....) In that sense, the story was interesting, and Green Arrow was more or less superfluous, or interchangeable with any guy who happened along to challenge Daddy.

However, I thought Issue #10 (a done-in-one story!) was a big notch above the initial arc. Ironically, again, Green Arrow himself was somewhat irrelevant - only the agent to uncover and move the story along. A news reporter or determined nosy parker could have done the same (except knock out the big bad monster with a fancy arrow).

Arrow prevents a young woman from committing suicide when she runs her motorcycle off a bridge. Thankful? No. She is, or thinks she is, a robot and wants to end it. Ollie Queen investigates and finds a company selling domestic robots. He investigates further as Green Arrow and finds this company giving people robotic body parts, some a few, some a lot - and a chip which suppresses emotions and memories. The owner claims that people come to him because they're tired of their humanity. Are they? Are they robots or humans at this point? They don't know, and GA and the reader are left guessing. The story ends with a visit to Robots Anonymous, a group where these robot/human mixes can go to be open about their adaptations.

It's a very interesting take on the post-human idea.

I just read that one myself and I have to say it was about the best DCnU book of the month. GA just went from near-dropped to must-get status with me.

I have to say that both the writing and the art of the new team is not cutting it for me.

In fact, most of the reboot isn't.

I really only like Nightwing, Green Lantern, World's finest, and ressurection man.

even GL is lacking. Not in art but in story heart. Aquaman is pretty good, but Ivan is saving it mostly.

Makes me wonder how many of the coveted "new fans" crop has stuck around for the long haul.

Told my lcs to drop it with 12 today. This just wasn't cutting it.

Now GA will be written by Jeff Lemire, but I'm still keeping it off the list. He's going to take away Ollie's fortune and support group, with some focus on his island experience/father issues. It sounds like a combination of the TV show Arrow and Grell's man of the people.

Regardless, my archer love is reserved for Hawkeye, for the foreseeable future.

So i'm gonna try it for a few issues. I love the character and that's getting it a try out more than anything. I dropped it when Winnick was on it, and I dropped it when it was obvious that it just flat out sucked a few issues into this run.

Lemire is becoming the new IT guy at DC, but it's because he's good, not DC unjustly hyping him.

Right now, DC is, after me reading them for over 30 years, fallen to the position of having to earn my money, not just getting it because they tell stories about characters I love.

I'm also doing the same. I'm letting a few months build up before I dive in. I'm also a major GA fan, and would love to have a decent series again after what feels like forever.

Ollie Queen -- is there any male DC character who's been dragged through the mud more than him? Changed from a noble class-warfare rebel to a priapic clown and/or a pig-headed jerk, killed off, de-aged...sheesh!

It seems so simple and straightforward to write Ollie, but, as someone who has written him more than once in fanfics, the execution of this character is like pulling teeth, no matter how much the writer loves him. Ollie has definitely suffered from not only writers who didn't love him or who misunderstood him, but from readers' misperceptions of him. As much as I love most of what Grant Morrison said in his non-comics book Supergods, his (and that idiot Tom Peyer's) assessment of Ollie as a dirty old man jumping about the peace and love bandwagon is so off-base it's offensive!

Denny O'Neil took a cipher of a character and made him awesome. So why has it been so hard to sustain that awesomeness??

Here's something I said a few years ago:



What do the rest of you think makes Ollie tick?

I thought he was fairly 'armless myself.

Uh?

It was Roy who lost an arm, not Ollie.

I was thinking of Dark Knight Returns.

Then there was that teaser up to GA #100 where they played with that idea, only to blow up the rest of him along with the arm.

Ugh. Please don't remind me of GA #100. Thank God for Kevin Smith resurrecting him.

I think I got the first issue of Smith's run and wasn't impressed enough to buy any more.

I got the first half a dozen Grell issues and that was about it.

The art in the mini series dated better than the story for me.

So, Green Arrow:

Millionaire or Pauper
Capitalist or Socialist
Gimmick Arrows or sharp, deadly arrows.
Beard or clean shaven
Bat-villains or street crime
Older than the other heroes or a younger version
Bumpy monogamy with Canary or lecherous old goat
Driven or whiny


My favourite Green Arrow moment is Canary going off to a JLA meeting. A meeting Ollie could have attended if he hadn't quit in the huff.

Pauper
Socialist
Gimmick Arrows
Beard
Bat-villains
Older than the other heroes
Bumpy monogamy with Canary
Bromance with Hal Jordan
Driven

Put the above together and you've got the perfect Ollie.

For what it's worth, I always thought he should wear a fake beard as Green Arrow.

Nah, all he has to do is trim off the more stylized edges.

You forgot Hal Jordan's bromance partner on that list, Fanfie!

But of course! I'll edit that in. Thanks, BraJa.

So, is anyone reading the current Green Arrow series? Bad question, I know, since the DCnU Green Arrow has pretty much been a disaster for three years. But from what I understand, they've introduced characters from the TV show Arrow--which is freaking awesome--such as Diggle and Felicity. I'm curious and may check it out.

I'm curious, too. The producers/writers of the show are writing it, now.

I didn't know those weren't regular Green Arrow characters. Diggle and Felicity are my favorite characters. I like Routh's too.

BTW, how much Arrow have you watched? I've gathered that you saw the Flash/Arrow crossover, but I'm assuming you've seen more, now?

Still not a lot! I bought my dad Season 1 for christmas and once he's done with I'm definitely following suit. Otherwise I've caught a few all out of order (which always happens when I like a new show).

I'm going the comics a try again too, and will report back!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it just ain't Ollie to me if it ain't:

Caught up on all the episodes but like I posted in the Flash thread, it's a chore to watch this. I on-line binged Agent Carter and it's wonderful to see actual actors acting. Wish Arrow would get some into the main roles.

Too harsh?

BB, I think you're looking for the television show thread, as this one is about the comic book, though I don't think it matters all that much given the recent conversation here.

Lardy, following up on our posts above, I read the latest issue and...it wasn't bad. Not bad at all. I'm walking kind of into the middle of a story, but that actually might be better for me since the issue is really centered on Oliver, Felicity and Diggle (plus the Cheetah, the Wonder Woman villain). And that made it a lot of fun! I'm going to be getting the next issues too.

Fanfie, I hear what you're saying but I don't personally pigeon Green Arrow into that part of his history, myself. I generally like a lot of different parts of GA history, including even the 1950's "origional costume" GA in which most of his adventures were very Weisenger-driven stories about the media, overcoming small personal problems and having oddball "crisis of the moment" type things. I loved the Kirby renovation in the late 50's as well. I really loved the late Silver Age Ollie which everyone knew and came to love. But I also enjoyed Grell's much darker take on things, and then I truly loved Chuck Dixon's run on the title with both Ollie and then Conner. I loved Kevin Smith's story, found Meltzer's to be the most boring story he's ever done, and then liked Winnick for awhile but eventually found it nigh-unreadable. I like Ollie being a voice for the oppressed and underserved but don't think I like the idea of him being an out and out socialist. I loved the stories that addressed his aging into his mid to late 40's, but I actually am enjoying quite a bit seeing a younger Green Arrow again.

It's funny, Green Arrow was never among the protagonists I included among my favorites or "must read", but somewhere in the early 1990's I started to read his title--when Grell was still writing it and it was waaaay too serious for a 14 year old me--and have always collected and read it ever since.

So thus far, Green Arrow has been an excellent core part of DC Rebirth. They've started the series off with an epic "born again" type story where Ollie loses almost everything, and while that has certainly been done before, they've really done a great job showcasing the characters and telling the story.

The Green Arrow / Black Canary dynamic is excellent, and in the latest issue we got some great Diggle / Ollie scenes as Diggle truly joins the cast. Other characters like Shado, Emi, and others round it out nicely too. But the best part, for me, is how Oliver is being written. He's a really good blend of classic Ollie, the younger version we've seen and the television show, all the while not dwelling on any part of the past and really just moving forward as "the" Green Arrow of the present with confidence. I like that and its working for me.

The art has been steller too. I'm really enjoying the pacing and layouts and the colors have been great too. The series is moody but yet maintains some good 'pop' of superheroics. And GA's costume looks fantastic.

So, as mentioned recently in my "Pile" thread, I recently read the first TPB of the Green Arrow Rebirth launch. Overall, I have to agree with Cobie that this series got a lot of things right. First and foremost, it felt like I was reading about the Oliver Queen character that I've loved for a long time, and I can't remember the last time the character was done right in a comic. yes, He's not exactly the same character that I met in the Satellite Era JLA and who made a loyal patron of me during Mike Grell's long run writing him, but he's recognizable and engaging--and I want to see more.

I like the different take on Dinah and Ollie. It's kind of a "he's so much more into her than she's into him" thing, except that she really is but has commitment issues. Thing is, it's a great chemistry that echoes their decades-long history while not feeling like the old ground is being trodden over and over again. Honestly, where Dinah and Ollie were before the New 52 was practically irreparable with how various writers did everything they could to tear them asunder, so this approach pretty much gets rid of all that bad baggage while reminding us of how great they can be together. Sparks they are a'flyin'!

It's interesting to see some influence being carried over from the popular "Arrow" TV show without exactly aping it. This Ollie also has a half-sister, but she's not Thea. He has a computer geek ally, but it's not Felicity and is in fact a guy. And we have Diggle, but he and Ollie seem less close than the TV duo. These are interesting choices, and it's apparent that these are all holdovers from the previous comic book. I'm curious to know more about some of these characters, but the TPB does a good job of giving you enough info that knowing it all is unnecessary.

The one thing I'm not crazy about (and this differs from Cobie's opinions) is the art. It's hard for me to not want an artist who in some ways might evoke a clear, realistic style for a Green Arrow book in the vein of some of his best portrayers like Mike Grell, Neal Adams, Dan Jurgens and the like. The principle artists on this arc, Otto Shmidt and Juan Ferreyra, are pretty far removed from that template. Both have styles that are somewhat painterly and expressionistic. The nearest artist I can compare them to is Frazier Irving, who drew the last Xombi series a few years ago. The art evokes less urban jungle and more of a horror vibe. In fact, the opening arc seems catered to their style as it features human traffickers who have all been hideously disfigured to to insure their loyalty. The non-disfigured members themselves wear evocative horror masks. The storyline itself is fine for a crusading kind of character like Ollie, but human trafficking is horrific enough without adding so much borderline-surrealistic horror elements.

Anyhow, it's not that the art is bad, per se, but I think it would be much better suited to a book like Constantine or even Batman. But for Green Arrow it feels off and the storytelling is sometimes confusing, to boot. To be fair, there are many scenes that work very well, such as many of the Ollie/Dinah scenes, but I hope this style, assuming the artists continue on, doesn't restrict the stories to strictly ones with horror/macabre elements. That would definitely be a mistake, longterm, on a Green Arrow book.

So the story and characters click on virtually all cylinders, but I have reservations about the artistic choices. I'll definitely be getting Vol. 2 when it is released and eagerly await it because the good in Vol. 1 was really good.

I'm loving your thoughts on the opening Green Arrow arc! I'm in total agreement over Dinah and Ollie, and I love the chemistry established here. Sure, it's not a true continuation of what came before, but you bring up a great point in that DC shit all over their relationship for a long while before the new 52. Here, all that is tossed aside and we get something much truer to the relationship the fans fell in love with.

Your opinion on the art is well noted. IMO, it must have been a common complaint, as there is a noticable shift in artistic trends after the first arc to something a little less stylized and a little more superhero-ey. It's not total, and there's certainly a stylistic element there still, but someone must have made that recommendation. Coloring-wise its also noticable. And the series benefits greatly from it too.

In fact, the next few arcs, which are a little smaller, are really great. The relationships between Ollie, Dinah, Diggle and Emi are in the forefront and the status quo in GA is really well established hereafter. What I like too is that the series keeps a "high octane action" sensibility to it, even though its clearly in the detective / mystery meets politically relevant corner of the superhero world. It makes Ollie seem like a man of action rather than just a complainer and that is so important for his character.

It's good to hear that Green Arrow lightens up a bit, particularly in the art dept. Ollie has always been such a grounded character that surreal, dark, macabre artwork just seems out of place. Basically, what I expect from a Green Arrow book is kind of a down-to-earth story with interesting characters and with some degree of social relevance, the latter of which stems from Ollie's own passionate personality. All of that was there in the first arc, but the dark arc and horror tropes felt out of place. I'm glad that things are being tightened up to play up to what should be the book's strengths.

So I'm pumped that Green Arrow vol. 2 is in the queue for Lardy's TPB Read Pile. Meanwhile, as GA hits #25 in the most recent issues, the series (like a lot of other DC titles) is veering off in to the next phase, and I'm very interested in where this is going. It begins with a team-up with the Flash, which seems very appropriate given their awesome friendship on the CW shows. I think the issue did a fantastic job setting up their relationship, which is not overly warm and fuzzy (to start at least).

This issue's threat wasn't too terrible but the Flash is sticking around for another issue or more, so there's time to present a credible threat to both of them. Here, it was all about Barry & Ollie trying to see eye to eye and work together, and I think it was well done: unlike the television shows, taking into account their long histories but focusing on the recent Rebirth "molds" of each of them, it does a good job standing on its own.

Plus, am loving the subplots, supporting characters and artwork. Definitely still among the upper echelon.

Started out really loving the Rebirth series, top two book for me. But I’m two trades and four issues behind now. Need to pick this up again and hope the spark is still there for me.