Picking up where the first thread left off, Lardy and I were discussing one of the worst storylines in Avengers history, the one dealing with Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers) becoming impregnated, and ending in issue #200 with Ms. Marvel basically giving birth to her own rapist and going off with him to another dimension, while the rest of the Avengers act like complete idiots and do nothing to address the gravity of the situation nor to stop this atrocity from occurring.

Understandably, Marvel has been reluctant to reprint this storyline. Previously, it had only been reprinted in black & white, in the long-out-of-print Essential Avengers Volume 9. Now it's been reprinted in color -- in a Marvel Masterworks volume, to add insult to injury!

They even had the story's nominal writer, David Michelinie (who came and went during 1979-1980 as if his monthly Avengers gig was an afterthought) do an introduction for the volume! I haven't read it, but Lardy has. In it, Michelinie claims that his original (and equally offensive) plot, where Ms. Marvel would be impregnated by a semi-organic computer, had been previously done in an issue of What If involving the Avengers, which was why issue #200 was rewritten (by committee) and redrawn (by supposed "feminist" George Perez) at the last minute.

It is worth noting that Carol Danvers, now without her super-powers nor even her emotional connection to her memories, did call the Avengers on their callous, addle-brained wrongdoing, in 1981's Avengers Annual 10, by Chris Claremont & Michael Golden. Now, there was no reason to diminish Carol even further except as a cynical showcase for Claremont's then-new creation, Rogue of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (all of whom the Avengers battle in this Annual.) For all my suspicions of mixed intentions on Claremont's part, I think Annual 10 did at least bring a degree of closure to one of the most shameful chapters in the Avengers (and Marvel Comics's) history.

Almost 20 years later, the Marvel Universe's supposed "Back to Basics Savior," one Kurt Busiek, retrieved the disgusting tale from Avengers #200 from under the carpet. Busiek had already contrived to make Carol an alcoholic (an Air Force pilot who can't hold their alcohol? Whatever, Kurt!) and would go on to have her kill a super-villain in what appeared (to me, at least) to be a fit of berserker hysteria. In the interim, Busiek spent several issues retelling the vile events of Avengers #200, to no discernible point.

With Carol now bearing the mantle of Captain Marvel, and being showcased in both the current (terrible) Avengers series and her own (uneven but sometimes engaging) solo series, this couldn't be a worse time to dredge up Avengers #200 yet again.

Well, obviously, I bought Masterworks 20 (and 21, which also contains another of the ost controversial moments in Avengers history). My goal for a long while has been to obtain all of the original Avengers run in hardcover form for the high-quality printing and the easy accessibility of the stories. To this end, I've got the first three Omnibus editions and multiple Masterworks. In between, there are a few TPBs and some less impressive HCs that I want to replace with eventual Omnibus releases.

I obviously knew 200 was in Vol. 20 and still got it. I wasn't sure for a while if I would actually do so because of 200. I thought about it and came to the conclusion that omitting the story is to pretend it never existed. People need to know it existed and have the opportunity to read it for themselves, so they will know exactly what Marvel let get published back in the day. People need to know this existed and continue to hold the creators accountable.

I haven't read this story since I was a kid. I was barely into my teens and had no idea of the implications. I didn't know better. I thought it was "cool". In the next couple of days, I will read it again. I think I need to. Not because I expect to enjoy it or think better of it but because I need to bear witness as an adult and show the child within me what these people felt was fine to publish and what harm it actually did. I expect I'll never read it again.

I think the introduction--or, better yet, an entirely separate essay should have been included to give the issue its proper perspective and comeuppance, rather than to excuse it.

So that's where I fall on Masterworks 20 and its inclusion of 200. The others, I have to think more about.

Agreed wholeheartedly with both points. I usually think of myself as being against censorship, but sometimes there will be a work of so-called entertainment that turns out to be a personal trigger for me. I appreciate you providing a more objective perspective, Lardy, because, yes, to try to pretend these horrid artifacts never existed is to risk perpetuating the attitudes which lead to such awful work being produced.

As for a separate essay, I'd nominate this one, by the awesome Carol Strickland. She was the very first person within fandom to speak out against 200:

http://carolastrickland.com/comics/msmarvel/index.html

http://carolastrickland.com/comics/msmarvel/msmarvel2.html


Looking forward to seeing what other conclusions you arrive at.

I do think Chris had great intentions with Avengers Annual 10. I don't think he entirely failed either. As you mention, Carol letting the other Avengers have it was a great well-deserved moment. In a meta-sense, it was aimed just as much at those who produced 200.

Chris wrote Carol's adventures in her own comic for a significant run. I do believe he loved the character and used his considerable pull to write a "rebuttal" story fairly soon after the published issue. I don't think any story that did what the Annual did would have ever been published without his anger and the name he's made.

The problem is with what he chose to do to her through Rogue. I honestly have nothing to back this up at all, but I feel his intent was to cleanse Carol and give her a new starting point to leave this story behind her. She appeared in the X-Men book for a while and gained an all-new identity and power-set. She could have went on to bigger things but instead just kind of disappeared for a while.

I do feel Chris has done more for the modern female superhero than most male writers. I give him cerdit for that and the fact that he wouldn't let Avengers 200 be the final word on Carol Danvers.


I think this was Kurt's clumsy attempt to acknowledge Carol's history and try to move her forward, especially as she'd mostly been in comics limbo for several years. So the intentions were good, but we know what is paved with good intentions.....


One thing Busiek did do that was good for her in the long term is bring her out of comics limbo. Since then, she has ascended through the Marvel ranks and is now their premier superheroine. And she's the first female to get a solo headliner in the extremely popular MCU. And she's clearly the MCU's most powerful hero. AND she's CAPTAIN Marvel and the only one to bear that title in the MCU!

Does that make what was done to her all right? Hell, no! But she's here, she's a brighter star than ever and she's not going anywhere!

I'd say, it's a start.

I will read these right after I read 200!

I read all these in the orignal comics, so, no need for me to ever buy any reprints.

AVENGERS was a book that went thru a lot of major ups and downs during my time reading it as it came out. I loved Steve Englehart's run, despite some 3rd or 5th-rate art, and it was a genuine charge to see newcomer George Perez get better as he went month-to-month (I particularly recall the issue where I said when I saw it, "Hey-- no DRAWING MISTAKES this month!") I was DEEPLY annoyed when Englehart left abruptly (in some ways, I can never forgive Gerry Conway for that-- yes, it was Conway's fault). Jim Shooter was better than Conway, but always seemed to me to be a "consolation prize".

When Shooter & Perez started their big "epic" story (something akin to "Crisis On Infinite Earths" quite a few years early), it was fun, but then Perez' bad habit of taking on too many projects and blowing deadlines on ALL of them got in the way, and that story fizzled at the end. It was CHAOS after that. Fill-ins, David Michelinie, John Byrne, Dan Green doing some of the worst inks in Marvel history (REALLY!), Perez coming back here and there... and then you had THAT story with Carol.

There is, I believe, an ENTIRE thread at the "Classic Comics Forum" message board discussing this atrocity. (It's one of the few general comics boards I haven't been BOOTED off of yet... but I have "BLOCKED" 3 members for their non-stop B.S. and bad attitude.)

There were, if memory serves, several instances over the years at Marvel where one writer would do something AWFUL, and another writer would then come in to do "pushback". Sometimes, a 3rd writer would then do "pushback" on the "pushback". I think if these clowns would focus on telling GOOD STORIES instead of the SOAP-OPERA angle of these books, a lot fewer long-running characters would have had their lives, careers and histories TOTALLY SCREWED OVER.

As an aside, my best friend in Georgia more than once has said he always "liked" Rogue because she was one of the very few characters in comics who was from "the south". I NEVER liked her. In fact, I HATED every fibre of her existence... because of what she did to Carol. By extension, CHRIS CLAREMONT did that to Carol, a character he allegedly "loved". B***S***. It's near the equivalent of what Alan Moore did to Barbara Gordon. WHAT IS WRONG with these people? I feel a big part of it is... THEY didn't create these characters, and THEY don't OWN these characters. So they're fine basically saying "F*** YOU!" to the characters... and, their readers.



As for Kurt Busiek... I'm sure this was discussed at excrutiating length in the other AVENGERS thread... but most of his "Heroes Return" work was 2ND-RATE RETREADS on long-past already-resolved storylines that nobody had any business 're-visiting." Maybe he really didn't have any new ideas.

Meanwhile, on Facebook... Kurt Busiek was the 3rd comics professional I was ever FORCED to BLOCK. It started in a Jack Kirby Yahoo Group, where one day he started being RUDE and INSULTING and argumentative and contradicting every single thing I would say on any given topic. I had to leave that group, JUST to get away from the guy. A few years later, he turned up in a Jack Kirby Facebook group... and as soon as he saw me, PICKED UP where he left off. I hit the "BLOCK" button and haven't had to deal with his nonsense since.

On the plus side, I won an eBay auction for Collection Obsession in floppies!

YAY! Congratulations, Lardy! One step closer to having the whole Epting/Harras era!

Okay...brace yourselves...I put in an Inter-Library request for..."Avengers: The Crossing Omnibus!"

Just saw this in a Google search...

"Often denounced as the worst Avengers storyline in history (and it's hard to argue)"





Had to look around to see that Bob Harras was the writer. Well that figures.

I've HATED his work in general since suffering thru "NICK FURY VS. SHIELD" and its sequel...

Tread carefully, prof. Harras has his fans here, and some discussion of his run is about to commence. Criticism is fine; bashing is not. If discussions are about to happen, "hate" interjections should not be shared.

Yeah, well, I read the long, long discussion here a couple years ago about Bob Harras' long AVENGERS run and didn't have much to say, as I dropped off the book about 6 months into his time on the book.

His work on NICK FURY was an insult to the series.

"The Collection Obsession" (Avengers Vol. 1 334-339)

So as a warm-up to reading the Gathering Omnibus sometime this coming summer, I purchased the above single issues (which are not included in the Omnibus) off an eBay lot and read them over this past weekend.

I'm pretty sure I never read this when it originally came out. I feel I dropped the book near the end of Larry Hama's run. Possibly, anticipating a bi-weekly extra money commitment, I might have chose that as a logical jumping-off point for a book I hadn't really enjoyed since Roger Stern left. I was stubborn back then and fiercely loyal to the books I was reading...until I'd had enough. Longtime buys like Spidey, X-Men, Alpha Flight, FF would soon or had already have been dropped, as well. At he time, Vertigo was around its peak and demanding more of my money, and the DCU itself had earned my interest more for overall higher quality.

So I just missed this story arc. Would it have swayed me to keep on avenging? Difficult to say, but Bob Harras certainly looked to start off his run with a story that showed he wasn't afraid to hit the ground running.

The basic plot of the arc is that a mysterious and powerful group called the Brethren have escaped from the Collector's ship and are threatening the Earth and potentially the galaxy with their destructive ways. Over the course of the arc, we learn that both the Brethren and the Collector have secrets that unfurl.

Like I alluded to above, Harras was pretty fearless, going for a fairly sprawling cosmic caper that guest-stars the Inhumans and the Watcher, introduces (and also apparently retires) a new threat with ties to the Celestials and the Eternals, features maybe a couple dozen Avengers and reservists and debuts Crystal as the newest Avenger, This is all just off the top of my head. Most Avengers writers get their feet wet with smaller stories, but not this guy. And I would say, overall, he's pretty successful here, though not without some hiccups and evidence of a learning curve.

We'll start with the flaws. Foremost, the characterization of our heroes is sparse and choppy. Few of them really shine in this arc. Sersi has the biggest role. At times, she's the damsel in distress and the attraction that occurs between her and the Brethren's Thane Ector feels forced. To Harras's credit, it's never a full-blown love affair, but there's a mixture of melodrama and genuine moments that seem awkward. I think in the balance it works overall, The Sersi I think of is strong and wouldn't be kissing her captor, but as a deeper connection between their 2 races is revealed, it works a little better.

Otherwise, the Avengers are pretty flat. Harras has some fun with Hank McCoy, but he just hits the expected notes with him. Cap is his heroic, self-sacrificing self, but he comes across just this side of stupid at times. Crystal gets a few shining moments to prove herself and examine her motives for being an Avenger that are appreciated. Vision's recent status quo change with his Byrne "deconstruction" is highlighted and offers some apparent promise of things to come for him, hinting he's maybe not so unfeeling after all in the wake of what happened to him. Otherwise, not much to see, other than them using their powers and skills, at least.

Honestly, I assume it's the ones on the cover box (minus Thor?), but I'm not entirely sure which Avengers are supposed to be the current full-timers among them.

Another issue is the level of the threat was described but not really apparent in most of the story. I mean, we are shown the destruction the Brethren caused on the other miniaturized habitats in the Collector's ship, but other than their re-decorating of the World Trade Center (always a strange thing to see in back issues) and skirmishes with various Avengers, they don't seem to be doing much to advance their agenda. This, I suppose, is because of Ector's infatuation with Sersi causing a quick turn in his character and a scaling back of their efforts, but given all the reserves being called in, there's not a lot to justify it, other than: "OMG! They beat down Cap!"

The three main Brethren are interesting, if somewhat stereotypical. They are the leader/warlord, his jealous betrothed and his Fool. There is a Shakespearean quality to them that is both appreciated and groanworthy at the same time. It ends up working pretty well, though the betrothed, Sybyl Dorn, gets the shortest shrift of the three. She is, at least, a warrior and not some crying attendant.

So the success of the story lies on the delivery of two things: 1) How much you accept the Sersi/Thane Ector emotional core discussed above, and 2) whether the Brethren and Collector "twists" deliver. The Collector's twist is nothing more than a heel turn. Given the title of the story, it wasn't all that surprising, but at least it was accompanied by a visual of his "true" form that was disarming. The Brethren twist is the core of the story. At first blanch, it's pretty disgusting. (There's this scene in the sewer.... ) But the secret, the shame it brings and the history behind it, make it work. Overall, both mostly work for me, so I feel the story is a success.

The other factor is, of course, the art. Adam Kubert draws the first part, and Steve Epting finishes the arc. I think the main thing Kubert does is he saddles Epting with some not-great designs on the Brethren characters. The costumes don't speak to me, and Ector particularly is left with a thong-like design element on his trunks that looks really dumb. Overall, Epting does a nice job, though. The art has obvious Jim Lee-inspired design elements but has its own flair. My biggest issue is with the fights and the poorly implied damage infliction. When Cap gets beat down, it's implied he is severely injured (even making it a cliffhanger ending), but we don't see blows landing or much of anything, other than reactions from other Avengers. I don't expect or desire hyper-violence, but here and in other scenes, Epting is a little too ambiguous, His storytelling is overall good, but he obviously has some learning to do.

So, overall, I feel this is a good, gutsy start to the Harras/Epting era. It's far from perfect but shows promise and potential. It's an entertaining yarn with both a classic feel and a look toward exploring new territory that makes me look forward to the sprawling Gathering saga.

Agreed. He was certainly ambitious. As I noted towards the end of the previous All Avengers thread, this seems to me, in some ways at least, more like a Satellite Era JLA story than an Avengers story, especially circa the Gerry Conway/George Perez issues (which includes my beloved JLA #200; also, the JLA editor at that time was Len Wein, whom I consider the unsung hero of DC's Pre-Crisis/Early 80s creative rallying.)


I thought she was playing the damsel in a strategic way, to some extent at least. But yeah, I can see where it might not come across, as her portrayal is a bit muddled.


What about Herc?


That's partly Hama's fault, because he created an A-Team and a B-Team, but constantly reshuffled the rosters.


Fair enough, but I love the Fool. Epting draws him to look like something out of Nexus (Rude the Dude is one of Epting's heroes.)



Disarming indeed. And did it remind you at all of Mumm-Ra, the Thundercats' arch-nemesis?


Ha ha ha ha. Somehow, it didn't trouble me at all. But then, given my peculiar sense of humor...


Agreed.


Actually, it's Andy Kubert, not Adam, but that's an easy mistake to make (and not just because their names are almost identical -- their styles were very similar circa 1991.)

The criticisms of Epting's staging of the action sequences is valid and well taken. Definitely a learning curve during his Avengers run.


And again, agreed. Glad you liked it. To backpedal a moment to the JLA comparison, I wish THIS was the kind of story Harras had written when he had a shot at the JLA, but then everything at DC was all about the countdown to Infinte Crisis at that point.

Satellite Era JLA is a good comparison! Having read the O'Neil/Wein/Maggin/Bates/Englehart stuff from the '70s, this seems like the kinds of stories they would tell in 2-parters or especially the 2-parters told in the larger page-count period. An alien invasion, a little melodrama and a twist or two thrown in describes a lot of those stories!


I can see that, but it's the impression I got. Being it was Harras' first go, it's hard to say.


Herc was mostly played off Rage, from what I recall. There was some of that trademark Herc bravura, but he mostly seemed like he was mentoring Rage in the story. What do you remember that made you think Herc stood out here?


The Fool was entertaining...and tragic. I didn't mean to give him short shrift. I thought, though, that he was muddied a bit in his portrayal between being fiercely loyal to Ector but also trying to clumsily (and unsuccessfully) gain Sybyl's affections behind Ector's back. It could be explained away by his admission of insanity, but noth he and Sybyl could have used more development.


Now that you mention it--yes! I wonder if the Collector was ever shown like that again?


It didn't....trouble...me so much, but it's rare that you see a character basically eat poop in an ostensibly all-ages book!


My bad about which Kubert brother it was! It would have been interesting to see how Steve would have designed the Brethren if he'd drawn the whole thing.


Hadn't recalled that Harras ever actually wrote JLA. I doubt I had any interest in the title at the time. Whom did Harras follow as writer? And who came after him?

RE: Hercules, my first Epting/Harras issue was actually 356, halfway through the run, and as I accumulated back issues of the installments that I missed, I just remember thinking that Harras had Herc's "voice" down pat from the get-go, and that Herc was no longer just the comedy-relief clown he had become during the DeFalco/Frenz Thor run. I could be wrong.

RE: Collector rocking the Mumm-Ra look, we did see it again, but unfortunately, it was in Ron Marz's Silver Surfer.

RE: Mid-2000s JLA, this was a particularly bad time for that book. The last writer with a substantial run had been Joe Kelly (who I think had his good moments,) and from then on it was a revolving door: Chuck Austen, Denny O'Neil, Chris Claremont with John Byrne, and Kurt Busiek each did one arc. I've read somewhere that Busiek almost accepted a full-time JLA gig, but his health problems had left him with too little energy to do a corporate team book. Next was Harras, who started out with an interesting take on The Key, but it all ended with Green Arrow and Batman having a punch-up while a green imp laughed at them -- sad, just sad. Then came the big Brad Meltzer JLoA relaunch, which lasted a whopping 12 issues and, IMO, wasn't anything special anyhow.

So I recently re-read Avengers 251-254, the interim issues between Al Milgrom's departure and John Buscema's return. These are also the issues where Roger Stern has the Vision nearly conquer the world in a fit of ISAAC-influenced megalomania.

They hold up fairly well, but I'd say they pretty much encapsulate the best and the worst of Marvel's Jim Shooter As EIC Era.

There is plenty of good characterization here, and the issues are accessible without having read anything that comes before or after this arc.

What is lacking is a good sense of pacing, and artwork that's better than functional. There are mildly entertaining tangents with Paladin and Doc Samson, but all they do is drain some of the momentum off the A-Plot. As for the art, Bob Hall had really impressed me on the West Coast Avengers mini-series (which is the very next thing I plan to re-read,) although my conviction is now redoubled that Brett Breeding's inks carried Bob Hall's WCA pencils a great deal of the way. Issues 251 and 252 are inked by the late, great Joe Sinnott, but by Sinnott's own admission, he spent a large part of the 1980s "phoning it in" (his exact words were, "I just plod along, knocking out those inks.") Issue 253 is inked by the Akin & Garvey team, who could sometimes be good (their inks, along with MD Bright's arrival on pencils, greatly improved the look of Iron Man circa 200,) but they look rushed here. Where the art really bottoms out is the climactic issue 254, credited to Joe Del Beato (who, IIRC, usually worked on Marvel's humor books) and Josef Rubinstein (of whose excellent style there is little to be seen here -- my guess would be that he only did a few touchups to make Del Beato's work slightly less awful.) The climax also suffers from being, basically, an intervention-of-sorts for the Vision ("This month, in a Very Special Issue of Avengers, we psychoanalyze a would-be tyrant.") It's not very exciting, it doesn't play to Hall's pencilling strengths, and the inks are the final nail in the coffin.

Thankfully, with the 20-20 hindsight of knowing how much good stuff is coming ahead, this storyline feels merely like the end of Roger Stern's learning curve as Avengers writer. There is cold comfort to be had.

So this list of the supposed "Best Avengers stories of all time" is complete garbage, first and foremost because it doesn't include ANY of Steve Englehart's definitive work on the series! GARBAGE!!!

I agree for the most part, Lardy, although at least they topped the list with a good one, Roger Stern & John Buscema's "Under Siege." And the 2-parter that introduced the Vision at least was innovative for its time and has exquisite artwork (again, John Buscema.)

Now that the niceties are out of the way...

Busiek's white elephant of a Kang story at TWO? Even a lot of Busiek fans don't like it!

And a Geoff Johns story? That's so wrong on so many levels!

Also: My personal bete noire, the Korvac Saga, and the beautifully-drawn-but-lacking-a-third-act Kree-Skrull War.

I've already forgotten what the other four are.

Okay, maybe "complete" garbage was a poor choice of words because "Under Siege" and some of the others deserve to be there, but any list without the Celestial Madonna, Serpent Crown or Avengers/Defenders War (maybe you can argue against the last one because it's also a Defenders story) is hard to take seriously.

Oh, I don't take it seriously at all. Quite honestly, I've always found myself at odds with the Avengers fandom consensus. There are, unfortunately, a significant amount of fans who ignorantly dismiss Engelhart's Avengers stories as pothead nonsense. This list was obviously tailored to appeal to that segment of fandom.

My own, fairly spontaneous, list of my 10 favorite Avengers stories (emphasis on my favorites, not necessarily other peoples' favorites) --

1. "Under Siege," Avengers v.1 #270-277, by Roger Stern/John Buscema/Tom Palmer, in which Baron Zemo and Moonstone do a sort of Megatron/Starscream thing as the first and second in command of a literal army of Masters of Evil. Because when all is said and done, there is probably no storyline more satisfying in both script AND art, comics being as they are an equally literary and visual medium, something I'll come back to further down the list.

2. "Assault on Olympus," Avengers v.1 #281-285, by Stern/J. Buscema/Palmer, in which the team faces off against the Olympian Gods after Zeus is driven mad by the unfortunate state of Hercules and wrongly blames the Avengers. Even more gorgeous to look at than "Under Siege" (John Buscema preferred doing these kind of archaic mythic settings,) but the plot is not as airtight as "Under Siege."

3. "The Serpent Crown," Avengers v.1 #141-144, 147-149, by Steve Engelhart/George Perez/various inkers, in which half the team battles the Squadron Supreme on Earth-S while the other half battles Kang in, of all places, the Old West. I'm placing this one over "The Celestial Madonna Saga" because its meta-fictional humor is so far ahead of its time and because the artwork is more consistent here.

4. "The Celestial Madonna Saga," Avengers #124-135, Giant Size Avengers #2-4, by Steve Engelhart and various artists (most notably Dave Cockrum on GSA #2 and #3,) in which the seeming interlopers Mantis and Swordsman actually turn out to be not only true heroes but, in Mantis's case, a Cosmic Holy Mother. A true epic, with Engelhart taking Roy Thomas's love of continuity and putting his own, arguably superior, spin on it; if only the artwork wasn't such a mixed bag.

5. "The Gatherers Saga," Avengers #343-344, 348-375, by Steve Epting/Bob Harras/Tom Palmer/various guest artists, in which the Avengers are finally brought back to the cutting edge of superhero stories; another true epic, it tries to outdo The Celestial Madonna Saga but comes up just a little short. I put Epting ahead of Harras because I think that, by drawing all the key issues of this storyline, he went above and beyond his artistic remit and made the story better than it would have been without him.

6. "Once An Avenger"/"From the Ashes of Defeat," Avengers v.1 #23-24, by Stan Lee/Don Heck/John Romita Sr/Dick Ayers, in which the Avengers confront Kang on his own distant-future turf. My favorite Silver Age Avengers story, and arguably the first one with the proper scope and spectacle that would define the series.

7. "Operation Galactic Storm," Avengers #345-347, Avengers West Coast #80-82, Captain America #398-400, Iron Man #278-279, Thor #445-446, Quasar #32-34, Wonder Man #7-9, in which the Avengers intervene in an escalating war between the Shi'ar and the Kree. I'm placing this one over "The Kree-Skrull War," "The Final Threat," and "The Nebula Saga," because I think it's the only Avengers space opera with a proper beginning, middle, and end. In fact, I still consider the ending to be a very ballsy and challenging one, and it more than compensates for the storyline's excessive length and occasional lulls.

8. "The Avengers/Defenders War," Avengers #113-115, Defenders #8-10, by Steve Engelhart/Bob Brown/Sal Buscema/various inkers, in which villains manipulate the two hero teams to fight each other. Arguably, the very first event storyline ever, and still one of the best. I am only putting it way down here because I just don't think any of the artwork had quite enough polish nor enough oomph to do the storyline justice.

9. "The Collection Obsession," Avengers #334-339, by Steve Epting/Bob Harras/Tom Palmer/Andy Kubert, in which a savage band of alien invaders turn out to have connections to both the Celestials and the Elders. Yes, it's plenty rough around the edges, but I don't think it can be faulted for sheer ambition and scope, something we arguably hadn't seen in the Avengers since "Assault on Olympus."

10. "Mine Is the Power/To Tame a Titan," Avengers v.1 #49-50, by John Buscema/Roy Thomas, in which a seriously truncated roster fights a losing battle against Magneto before the subplot becomes the main plot, and Hercules battles Typhon the Titan, with the fate of the gods themselves at stake. The Roy Thomas era does have a lot of faults, which keeps several other sentimental favorites off this list, but this one makes the cut thanks almost entirely to John Buscema finally coming into his own as Avengers artist, after a steep learning curve, and doing his own inks to boot. As I alluded to earlier, comics are both a literary and a visual medium, and sometimes the artwork does manage to carry the story a lot farther than it might otherwise deserve.

Excellent, well-though-out list! Plus, it has LOTS of Englehart, who is, for me, the definitive Avengers writer.

I'm going to make an unranked list, which will instead be listed chronologically. Part of this is because, unlike Fickles, I haven't read all of the classic Avengers era yet. (To me, "classic Avengers era" means everything prior to Bendis coming aboard and changing the basic stroytelling and line-up formula forever--for better or worse.) I'm most lacking in the Harras/Epting era, but some of that has and will be rectified.

So, I present....

Lardy's Ten Best of the Classic Avengers Era (1963-2004) (honestly, though, I only lists stories thru '87)

"Once An Avenger"/"From the Ashes of Defeat," Avengers #23-24: This one knocked my socks off when I read the first Avengers Omnibus! I thought the Cap's Kooky Quartet era was a great shot in the arm for a mostly dull series to that point, and this is the apex. A stunningly beautiful, exciting and emotional story that I think still stands as the best Kang story ever. (Take that "Kang Dynasty"! ) I surprisingly loved Don Heck's art during this era, with or without Romita, Sr., but the combo here is undeniably transcendent.

"Kree/Skrull War" Avengers #89-97: I understand Fick's criticism of the ending, but the ambitiousness of the concept and the events therein are so classic. I don't think Englehart could have swung as big as he would later if Thomas hadn't done this first. The Neal Adams issues are, imo, the finest work he's ever done. One of, if not the, first multi-issue epics in comics and still one of the most fondly remembered.

"The Avengers/Defenders War," Avengers #113-115, Defenders #8-10: Speaking of firsts, how about this epic crossover written by Steve Englehart that helped set the standard. Set up like something out of the classic JLA playbook, we get a series of compelling hero vs. hero match-ups manipulated by Loki and Dormammu. I personally liked the issues drawn by Bob Brown and overall feel the art is nice throughout, but it's not like the best of Avengers art by the likes of Perez, Buscema, Adams, et al.

"The Celestial Madonna Saga," Avengers #124-135, Giant Size Avengers #2-4: So, yeah, this is an unranked list, but, make no mistake, this would be my undisputed #1. This is the apex, the core of Englehart's run. Plot threads he'd been weaving since almost the beginning come together and conclude here. And not just the Mantis stuff but the Vision and Scarlet Witch romance. Roy Thomas gave Steve something to play with Vizh and Wanda, but Steve freaking ran with it and built it to coalesce with Mantis and Swordsman's story. Kang plays another memorable role here, but it is the characters, their triumph and tragedy that carry this one. Yes, the art is inconsistent, but this still doesn't hurt the overall effect in my mind. It's basically the Avengers' Dark Phoenix Saga for me, in terms of that one story that embodies the characters and their potential like no other. It's the story that defines the Avengers classic era, imo.

"The Serpent Crown," Avengers #141-144, 147-149: If Celestial Madonna was the apex, this one was the flourish at the end of Englehart's run. Toward the end of his run, Steve finally got a (fairly) consistent penciller, and one of the all-time best at that with George Perez. As much fun as the "A" story is with the Squadron Supreme, it's the "B" story in the old west (which ends first) that feels most classic and fun here. And, hey, more Kang! Englehart left us wanting more, the way it should be. (And he would have a fairly welcome return! See below....)


"By My Friends Betrayed," Avengers Annual #10: Chris Claremont gets his chance to do a rebuttal of the deplorable Avengers #200, and it's a tragic, dynamic story that is important for many reasons. Fick mentions the "meta" aspect in one of her capsule reviews above and this feels like one of the most meta comics in history as Carol Danvers lets the Avengers have it in the story's conclusion. You can argue that Claremont goes too far here, but there's no doubt that this story has a huge consequences for Carol and the X-Men for many years to come. Featuring great pencils from Michael Golden.

The Trial of Hank Pym, Avengers 226-230: Roger Stern comes aboard for his legendary run and brings Monica Rambeau with him. Roger does remarkable damage control left by the previous 2 years of disastrous writer-by-committee blunders here at the outset. His first order of business here is cleaning up the whole Hank Pym mess in an artful fashion that harkens back to Pym's early days as Ant-Man. Maybe there is indeed some ret-conning done here, but Stern lands on his feet and points the Avengers toward the future by burying the ugliness,

"The Legacy of Thanos," Avengers #255-261 and Annual #14, and Fantastic Four #19: Buscema and Palmer come aboard and instantly bring new artistic energy to Stern who had been hampered by dull artists like Al Milgrom and Bob Hall. Even better, the team attempt to continue Thanos's titular legacy without bringing him back! Instead, they introduce his apparent daughter Nebula and make her a huge threat in her own right. It's exciting and a little dark, but most importantly, it looks to the past while moving undeniably forward. It's a splendid way for this creative team to kick off and has seemed unfairly overlooked, Well, the wildly successful MCU didn't overlook it, even if they had a different perspective on Nebula.

"Under Siege," Avengers v.1 #270-277: The apex of the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run. At its core is a simple idea--super-villains team up to overrun a superhero headquarters. But it's done here like never before and with consequences and heavy drama. This ends up being the origin story for the Thunderbolts years later. Without this story, Thunderbolts doesn't happen, simply put. But that legacy aside, this is simply the great Avengers epic that the Korvac Saga wishes it could be but definitely wasn't.

"Lost in Space-Time," West Coast Avengers #17-24: Englehart returned to the Avengers many years later, albeit on the curious West Coast spin-off. The apex of his return this go-round is this time-travelling epic that is at its core, just plain fun (with one exception). Steve basically revisits the fun he had in Serpent Crown's "B" story and touches base with a lot of Marvel history. The thing about this one that gets talked about to this day, though, is Mockingbird's subplot with the Phantom Rider, how he takes advantage of her and how she gets her revenge. It's controversial and ultimately breaks up Hawkeye and Mockingbird, Should Steve have gone there? I still don't know, but it's powerful and thought-provoking to this day. At the very least, it doesn't take lightly when something like Avengers 200 asked us to just accept something similar. But let us not also forget the stunning work that was done with Hank Pym here as he contemplates suicide. Englehart's use of Firebird/Espirita as his counselor and allowing her to use religion in helping Hank was itself very unusual. Of course, Englehart's WCA is saddled with Al Milgrom as series artist, but this arc contains what passes for his best work, for what that's worth.

Thank you, Lardy. And I say the same about your list.


Agreed 100 percent!


LOL


Good point well taken.


Very good insight in that classic JLA comparison! I'd go so far as to say that I wish Engelhart's own JLA stories had been more like this -- even the really good ones like the origin of the Guardians one.


Fair enough on the art. And I like the comparison with "Dark Phoenix Saga."


I prefer the "A" story, but I see your point on the classic and fun feel of the "B" story.


ROTFLMAO Good save.


Well put. And thanks for mentioning Golden's amazing art, which often gets overlooked with most people tending to focus on Claremont's script.


Much as I love Stern in general, I still can't quite warm to the first half of his run. Most of his stories, including this one, are solid, but the art...just a real lack of chemistry there. The WCA mini-series being the exception, although as I said earlier in this thread, Brett Breeding's inks made a world of difference, IMO.


I'm glad you mentioned the Annuals. I take back what I said about it not having a proper ending, but I still think the Secret Wars II tie-in at the climax does do some damage.


No argument from me.


I may have to re-read this one, and see if this time I can get past both Milgrom's artwork and what I regard as the borderline-schizophrenic tone of the story. Point taken about how the story deals with an ugly subject more sensitively than the superficially similar one from the shameful Avengers 200, but I just think the story could have had equal urgency and gravity without going there.

In hindsight, it's telling that nothing from the Busiek era made my list. A few years ago, I'm certain that Avengers Forever would have been there, for sure. A recent re-read of that series exposed that revered series as, overwhelmingly, an attempt at fixing Avengers continuity, including numerous things I didn't feel really needed fixing. Telling a good story should always be job one, but I found all the continuity porn to be dominating and foremost on that re-read. I think, despite this, it almost made the list. But I just couldn't put it above this other ten, which were all great stories foremost.

As for the rest of the Busiek run, I find it hard to disagree with Fick that it's all pretty much fanwank--though pretty entertaining fanwank in many cases--but fanwank nonetheless. I certainly wouldn't consider anything from my or Fick's lists to fall under that category.

Yeah, Avengers Forever pretty much botched a potentially great premise. Retcons are always an easy way out, but retcons on the scale of "The Crossing" being an elaborate deception by Immortus are an outright cop-out. And even after finally reading "The Crossing" in its entirety a few months ago, and being able to confirm that it really is a terrible story, I still think something of value could have been salvaged in its aftermath.


And regarding the outright unworkable stuff (mainly "Teen Tony Stark,") it's not as hard to fix as it might look.

One thing I'll say about Avengers Forever is, Carlos Pacheco really went the extra mile with the artwork. Shame all the effort was for naught.


These days, what I find most annoying about the Busiek run is how he seemed to think "bigger means better" pretty much throughout. Maybe he was being competitive with the Big Guns JLA at the time, I don't know for sure. But it's exhausting and unsatisfying in the extreme. That actually bothers me more than his selective loyalty to continuity and his pandering to nostalgic old readers.

But, but, but... I liked being pandered to!

I did kinda like how he avoided the trend to filling up the team with 'classic' or 'big 7' heroes, and included both some established heroes who'd never been Avengers (Justice and Firestar) *and* attempted to introduce some shiny new characters (Triathalon and Silverclaw, who, granted, went over like a fart in church, but I give him points for at least trying, unlike today's Avengers, which seem to be the same old, same old Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, etc.).

Huh, it just occurred to me, now that the Phoenix has been retconned to be Thor's mother, and is currently inhabiting his teammate Echo, Thor is on a team *with his mom.*

"Honey, don't chew with your mouth open. And get your elbows off the table."

"Mooommm!"

In my opinion, Busiek wrote Justice and Firestar horribly. He came off like a wide-eyed dork, and she came off like a miserable killjoy.

I'm surprised Fabian Nicieza is still friends with him, after Busiek basically ignored all the good things Nicieza had done to evolve those characters in the original New Warriors series.

Poking my head in to say that Ann & Paladin, I really like all your choices - I am particularly chuffed to see Assault on Olympus mentioned as it really cemented Monica Rambeau as a powerhouse, and the WCA Lost in Space/Time story was one of the first story arcs I remember being into enough to actually try and get every issue. It may not necessarily have landed everything it attempted, but it was pretty mind-blowing for me as a teenager seeing this story mine old continuity I'd only ever read about in the OHOTMU/Marvel Index books and have a whole bunch of different storylines going in different eras. I wish Firebird had stayed with the team but I guess she suffered the fate of all the other peripheral Avengers women who never get to see their potential filled beyond maybe one storyline if they're lucky.

re: Busiek's run....I understand the comment that it's nostalgia heavy without really contributing any groundbreaking stories, but I do think Ultron Unlimited classifes as an epic on its own merits because it re-established Ultron as a terrifying threat and it firmly put Black Panther and Firestar on equal footing with Cap, Iron Man and Thor in terms of experience/power. I would probably put the initial Morgan le Fay story there as well, both because of its scale and because it easily established the kind of respect and knowledge that Busiek has for the characters. Even though Monica Rambeau hardly ever popped up again and it was a while before the Wasp got involved heavily in the title again as well, I love how that storyline established them as people who are at the core of what the Avengers are.

I've never read "The Crossing" and doubt I ever will. Of course, about all I really know about it is the broad strokes of the Tony Stark part of it. I'm curious about what else went on there and if any of it was actually somewhat good?


Totally agree about Pacheco's efforts on AF. I stop short, though, of agreeing it was "all for naught". For me, it STILL nearly made the list. There's a lot in the story (the roles of Songbird and Genis-Vell, for example) that is still good and memorable. It just should have been about celebrating and embracing Avengers history instead of attempting to fix it all with duct tape.


I'm sure George Perez's influence didn't hurt either. Obviously, he wasn't there the whole run, but still the guy known for Crisis wasn't looking for a more intimate Avengers book. But, yeah, Morrison's hugely successful JLA had to be a factor, as was having to right the ship The Crossing and Heroes Reborn. For the latter purpose, similar approaches have been used for course corrections after bad creative runs. Just think John Byrne's Spider-Man relaunch after the Ben Reilly Clone Saga.

Busiek/Perez's initial line-up was certainly pleasing to me at the time, as well. But Busiek was possibly the least successful of all Avengers writers at creating new Avengers or adding existing characters as first-time Avengers. I an't think of one that stood out or came away looking better by the end of their run. I don't like what Bendis did to the Avengers, but many of the B- and C-List characters he added found new life from obscurity and are still thriving years later. Busiek didn't do that with anyone and, in fact, seemed to go out of his way to make fans hate them. I'm an overall big fan of Kurt Busiek, but this alone makes him a lesser Avengers writer by my reasoning.


Ugh. This sounds like utter shit! If this is from the current Donnie Cates run, I'm not looking forward to that first TPB my CBS guy talked me into getting.

"Olympus" was considered. I'd re-read it within the last year, but I didn't like it as much as the others I listed from that era. Fick is correct that the Nebula story lacked a solid ending, but I found her fascinating and liked her unrepentant portrayal. Too many female villains have a soft side, but here was a self-announced daughter of Thanos who was ready to seize his legacy. (I like the MCU version of the character, btw, in and of herself--but her resemblance, appearance and personality, to the original 616 Nebula is very superficial.) I also loved the ominous feeling of Thanos's derelict ship. "Assault on Olympus" was beautifully drawn and fairly entertaining, but the outcome for Hercules was very predictable.

Love your thoughts on "Lost in Space-Time"! Can I coax some of your thoughts about Mockingbird and the Phantom Rider?


Here's a secret, just between you and me...and everyone else reading : I'm not in love with my Ten Best list. I hate that it's such an Englehart/Stern lovefest.

Part of me desperately wanted to include some of Busiek's run or maybe even something else from Lee or Thomas...or even that dad-blasted Korvac Saga! I also considered "Nights of Wundagore", which featured strong Byrne art and Starlin's "Final Threat", among others.

I think, maybe...just maybe, if the bulk of the Busiek run was as fresh in my mind as those older stories, there may have been an appearance or tow on the list. The only part of it I'd re-read was AF, so my reaction to that has likely colored my view of the others. I've read or re-read pretty much all those older stories since Busiek's run ended, so they are all much fresher in my memory.

I am always up for talking about the WCA, they were my favourite team for a while

My thoughts on that story have definitely changed over the years...when it first came out I could understand why Bobbi did what she did and it made her much more of a badass to me than I had previously thought of her as being, but I was pretty firmly on Team Hawkeye in that I too believed killing is never justified and that as a hero she should have done everything she could to save Phantom Rider even though he was a bad guy. (On a side note, I really wish when the team split up over Bobbi letting the Phantom Rider die that they'd had some more time to explore that dynamic...it would have been interesting to see how Bobbi's crew and Clint's crew evolved from that starting point)

Now that I've had *coff*a few years*coff* more life experience, I think Bobbi was 100% justified in what she did and Clint was an absolute douchebag discounting his wife's sexual assault entirely while he got on his high horse...and from a meta perspective, I kinda think that whole storyline was dealing with themes that were too mature for the book. Steve Englehart has the nuance of a sledgehammer and he reduced a very horrible thing that happens in the real world to superhero histrionics.

I don't know that Bobbi's ever really recovered from it as a character either...for pretty much the rest of that title's run she was characterised as a flakey woman who lets her emotions lead her to stupid decisions, which has some very squicky connotations about how these writers view women and sexual assault...I mean, let's face it - if Phantom Rider had abducted Clint and roofied him for sexytimes, I doubt very much that later writers would suddenly have Hawkeye become a generally incompetent moron who helped take apart the Vision because of his inability to make rational decisions...

It is so awesome to see this thread so packed with new posts! Thank you, Lardy and Raz! I'll do my best to catch up this weekend.

Mine too, for much of that run! The mix of characters had a lot to do with it, but also the character interaction/soap opera and overall lighter feel were appealing. I never didn't like Stern's run, but there was a more somber tone to it that put it slightly behind for me. Keep in mind that I was a teenager in high school around that time! Plus, I've always loved Hawkeye.


Obviously, as said above, I was (and am) a big Hawkeye fan, so teenage me, especially, would drift toward agreeing with him.

Regarding Englehart's "nuance of a sledgehammer", even having re-read this a year or two ago, I'm not sure he ever used the words "rape" or "sexual assault". (He probably couldn't have because of the Comics Code, and I doubt Marvel would've allowed it anyway.) For teenage me, I don't know that I ever realized that's what actually happened, if I even had knowledge of such a crime. I was pretty naive about a lot of sexual things, having not had any firsthand experience at the time. I know it would be very obvious to a more mature reader, but that was not me at the time. I knew she was extremely angry and had been mislead into believing she was someone else, so the depth of her anger went over my head. I didn't, however, blame her for letting the Rider die. But when there was a schism, it was hard for me not to side with Hawkeye. I still liked Bobbi and lamented that the two were never the same after that.

While she may have "never recovered" during that series run, I really enjoyed the short-lived Hawkeye & Mockingbird series of several years ago by Tim Seeley. It even revisited the Phantom Rider and bravely addressed those events around the Rider's return. I was glad to see someone have the nerve to unbury the story with some maturity. Even this wasn't perfect, but I appreciated the effort. It also seems Bobbi has headlined a well-received (though controversial for the writer daring to have a "feminist agenda") solo book and a WCA revival. Both were short-lived, but the character has at least gotten her due.

As for Hawkeye, this is one of the more unfortunate examples of the character often demonstrating emotional immaturity. It goes back to his earliest days as a character and sadly fits in with his reaction to what happened to Bobbi and what she did. I don't defend him at all, but I can see him being unable to deal with what happened to his wife emotionally and instead leaning into his moral outrage about what she did. Honestly, with everything we knew about Hawkeye up to the point of his meeting Bobbi, he should never have married her. Obviously, it was a whirlwind courtship, and that's the only way it could have happened. Any mature woman who would try to romance with Clint for a prolonged period would see he's not husband material without him making some changes and getting some therapy. I love Hawkeye, largely for his flaws, but this is the worst thing he ever did.

Thanks, Raz. Monica holding her own against Zeus was truly awesome!


Well...MIke Deodato's art was better than I had remembered (or maybe it's because most of the other art, except maybe for Tom Morgan's Iron Man art, was bad.) There's also the thing I put in a spoiler box, about the potential for meta-commentary about how much the world (and the Me Generation) had changed since the Celestial Madonna Saga. As for the story itself, it's hard to summarize but basically it involves the return of Kang (or the illusion thereof) and his corruption of Iron Man, who ends up killing people; there's also a bunch of previously unseen time-traveller characters, including the return of the Anachronauts (or, again, the retroactive illusion of all this.) I could try to elaborate further if you'd like.


Fair enough. Just as it could be argued that Busiek's final 20 or so issues should have been about inducting Genis and Songbird into the Avengers instead of that bloated Kang story.

Beautifully put! Thanks, Lardy.


Fair enough on Olympus, and I totally agree about Nebula's unrepentant portrayal. There are not nearly enough villainesses of that caliber. Roger Stern's friend John Byrne, to his credit, portrayed Nebula well during the time Byrne was writing Avengers and writing/drawing Avengers West Coast. Then Byrne was fired, other hands completed his story, and then the whole disgusting resurrection of Thanos/Infinity Gauntlet crap...sad, just sad.


One of the highlights of the previous All Avengers thread was our Korvac discussion. I'm always up for a lively Korvac discussion. Hint, hint. But I don't like the Wundagore story at all, despite the art -- it arguably set Wanda on the course to Disassembled. Final Threat is solid but doesn't really stand on its own apart from the rest of the Bronze Age Marvel Universe Warlock Saga.



Okay...guess it's devil's advocate time for me. First off, I think Al Milgrom's art was horrible -- he did have more chemistry with Engelhart than he did with Stern, but it's just so grossly amateurish-looking! As for the "lighter feel," I mentioned earlier that I thought Lost In Space-Time had a borderline schizophrenic tone...I actually think that could apply to the vast majority of that run. All sorts of creepy stuff with demons and cat people, but at the same time, this weirdly wonky attempt to be...for lack of a better word, chirpy. It just gave me the willies.

I should check that out, I kinda got burned out on a lot of Avengers stuff after Johns, Austen and Bendis got their hands on 'em...thanks for the heads up!

Everything you're saying makes sense actually, I think I'm just bitter about it because Bobbi got treated so badly afterwards and then had the stupidest death scene I've ever seen in a comic, and for years after that was the end of her story. But I can't argue that anything Clint did was out of character (although it'd be nice if writers other than Busiek or Nicieza could retain his impulsive moron side while still letting him grow up a bit, but that's a different rant altogether lol)

I can't argue about the art...I think these days it would be enough to put me off buying a title, but back then I had just discovered comic shops and I was buying just about anything Marvel put out

I get what you mean about the schizophrenic tone too; I actually liked it but I can see how it would be off-putting. I think that's kind of what I was getting at when I said the whole story around Bobbi's abduction was probably too mature for that title to handle properly (in retrospect I think the same thing about the early issues with Tigra and all the focus on her sexuality....like there's all this stuff touching on consent issues and her lack of control when it came to jumping everyone's bones, but then it all gets wrapped up with a neat bow and hey now she's got a tail, time for the next plot! - I'm not sure if stuff like that should actually be raised at all if it's not going to be explored with sensitivity)

In no particular order, and off the top of my head...

West Coast Avengers - #42 - 47 - The Visionquest.
I read a reference about Vision and his world domination, and so wasn't completely in the dark on the reasons behind the antagonists here. I remember that Byrne gave us a reminder that the world governments were more than a shouty Gyrich or whatever Claremont was doing in the X-Books.
In addition to the excellent plot and lovely art, Byrne built the West Coast team into a more effective force that the East Coast had. For me, they were the main Avengers team at the time. Byrne built in a number of little character plots for good measure, showing his craft in building a strong team book.
This run also had the Great Lakes Avengers. Back then the Marvel RPG had a sourcebook where the players could create their own franchises. This was a lovely reminder of that. It was also an entertaining story in its own right, and set up Hawkeye for the later Thunderbolts.

Avengers 16
The changing of the guard. Hinted at in the preceding issues, it sets the standard for the team's fluidity over the decades. The following issues where the team have their differences and look to be breaking up in the shadow of their more powerful predecessors is well done too.

Avengers 23 -24.
The Kang/Immortus stories had already been highlights. This story showed Cap's Kooky quartet bury some differences and pull together against a major foe. Kang would be given a lot more depth in this two parter, as the book continued with longer stories.

Avengers 181
Gyrich cuts down the team in my favourite roster change issue. Although 151 was really good too.

Avengers (1998 series) 1-4
I was in the target audience for this one. A crash course in the Avengers characters and history along with a dynamic plot that brings them together to forge a new, very powerful, lineup. Perez art is always a massive plus.

Avengers (1998 series) 19-23
A seemingly unstoppable Ultron destroys an entire country. It was a tense, escalating story where victory for the heroes looked seemed very much on the line.

Avengers 157
A one shot following on from Black Knight's fate in the Avengers/Defenders war. There's lots of action counterpointed by the Vision's observations on humanity at the end.

Avengers 140s -
The Serpent Crown. For me the more overall consistent story when compared to Korvac and Celestial Madonna stories. Although I did originally read this one more in sequence which may plat a part in me thinking this.

Avengers 355 -
Somewhere about the start of where the Gatherers saga kicks off. This was one that styed with me due to the potential in the storyline. Dead Avengers returning and survivors of alternate Avengers teams being gathered.

Avengers 161 -162.
Another all-action Ultron story. This one has the birth of Jocasta and her poignant sacrifice.

Thanks for chiming in with your own favorites list, Thoth.


This storyline is, for me, the high point of the entire West Coast ongoing run. Really, I think Byrne had his moments on both of the Avengers books, but it was always a plus when Byrne did both story & art. Credit is also due Mike Machlan, who inked these particular issues (he had also inked Jerry Ordway many times in the 80s.) I'm not keen on the follow-through with Wanda going completely over the edge, but "VisionQuest" in and of itself is a solid achievement.


I'm always happy to see these stories get some love. The Kang vs Kooks story is 3 for 3 so far, very heartening.


Yeah, even though the Gatherers Saga is a favorite of mine, in 20-20 hindsight I find that it did peak right around here (I'd personally say from 355 through 362 without a break.) It should have been resolved in 363, or at the very least by 365. Unfortunately, that was the same year as the 30th Anniversary extravaganza and its corresponding "every third issue has to be an event" remit from Marvel execs. Not to mention the contrived participation of the X-Men who were also turning thirty, even if it did afford the pleasure of seeing Steve Epting draw the X-Men.

I (finally) just started the Avengers: The Gathering Omnibus! Two issues in and 343-344 have a LOT going for them--they FEEL like Avengers stories in all the right ways! Interpersonal drama, action, humor, spot-on characterization, classic-feeling Tom Palmer inks over Epting pencils....BRING IT ON!!!

YAY! So glad to hear you're enjoying it, Lardy!

It's been bittersweet revisiting the Avengers work of the late, great inker/colorist Tom Palmer. And not just because we will never see any more new art from him.

A lot of Palmer's most memorable Avengers moments are inextricably linked to a man who is arguably the most problematic of all the Avengers writers: Roy Thomas.

My main issue with Roy is not his plot holes, which I can forgive, nor his cheesy dialogue, which I actually find endearing in its exuberant melodrama. No, what troubles me is the inescapable racism and misogyny on display. Of the former, there is the cringe-inducing portrayal of the Black Panther, which Christopher Priest has sharply and deservedly criticized. Of the latter, only one word need be said: Yellowjacket.

That's my two cents. What about the rest of you Legion Worlders?

Oh man, Roy Thomas can't write women to save his life....I did an All-Star Squadron read a while ago for the first time and I'm actually surprised Liberty Belle comes off as one of the most competent members of the team because it's in stark contrast to the way I've seen him write women literally any other time.

When I read old stuff from the 60s or 70s I know I have to adjust my expectations for the era, but I remember even when he started writing Avengers West Coast in the 90s he did a lot of damage - he turned Mockingbird into an embarassingly incompetent moron who ultimately was just there to die in the stupidest way possible for Clint's manpain...he shuffled Tigra off-stage as soon as he took over the book, and Spider-Woman's whole character beat was pretty much "divorced mum" the whole time she was there. I think in literally the first issue he took over, he had Jan's wasp sting just inexplicably not work for the sole purpose of being able to have one of the guys save her ass.

Come to think of it, was it Roy Thomas who wrote that old Avengers issue where Jan's big feat was avoiding being eaten by a bird before she fell out of a tree and knocked herself out? He really shouldn't be allowed near Janet Van Dyne specifically, I don't know what he's got against the Wasp

I haven't really read a lot of the stuff from T'Challa's first shot at being an Avenger so I can't really comment about that, but again going by Avengers West Coast his default setting for literally any POC seems to be "angry young <insert nationality> man" - he did it with Sunfire, he did it with War Machine and he did it with Living Lightning

EDIT: I actually just remembered the way he shuffled Tigra off was to have her go live with some First Nations tribe in Australia and THAT was cringey as hell because it kinda came across like well yeah obviously the woman who's literally half-animal feels more comfortable around these noble savages in loincloths...so yeah okay I am with you on the racist stuff too!

Liberty Belle was something of an exception, although I think Firebrand showed incredible potential early on. Unfortunately, Roy seemed to quickly get bored with her.

And, yes, Wasp came off very badly when written by Roy. But Hank came off even worse, all the groundwork for his descent under Jim Shooter was already laid out.

Regarding Black Panther, Roy actually made him ridiculously passive and ineffectual. Compare that to the way Kirby and Lee had introduced him as regal and self-assured.

I appreciate you filling us in on Roy's AWC failings. Some people just never learn.

I agree with you on Hank, I feel like that story where Goliath got stuck at 10ft tall kind of set the tone for Hank just being a mess of psychoses moving forward....and then the Yellowjacket stuff speaks for itself obviously (and Jan comes out looking horrible there too)

Actually speaking of Goliath...one of the things I hate most is Hawkeye becoming Goliath, it just really makes zero sense for Clint. His whole schtick is that he's a normal guy even moreso than Cap is, and he's proven that he can stand alongside mutants and gods with just his skill. Bill Foster was right there if they wanted a size-changing guy who wasn't Hank, and it would have made a lot more sense for Bill to become Giant-Man early than it does for Clint to just give up a lifetime of training to become a giant punching bag who never really does anything memorable with his powers.

Off-topic, but I was first introduced to Firebrand through COIE and I instantly loved her because you never get to see female superheroes from that era who aren't someone's sidekick slash girlfriend...it's a shame that the only thing Thomas ever did with her was make her a weird racist for a one issue PSA, if she'd been treated better back in the 80s she might be seen as one of the necessary add-on JSA members these days!

Agree 100% that Clint should never have become Goliath and that Bill should have been the one to take up the mantle from the start. Very well said, Razsolo.

Re: Firebrand, check out the Re-reads thread circa March 2020 for a lively discussion of the first 20 issues of All Star Squadron.

Jason Aaron is finally leaving Avengers at the end of this year! I'm temporarily without a PC and I don't know how to link with my phone. Could someone please post a link to the announcement on Marvel's official website? Thanks!

Aaron's closing work on Avengers

Much appreciated, Thoth

I am so glad Aaron is leaving, I might actually be able to read this book again finally

His run has definitely been a tremendous disappointment to me. I imagine other fans of his good work feel much the same.

If the Bendis Avengers run was too stubbornly earthbound, then the Aaron run was too out-there, utterly lacking in any kind of grounding.

So...I've temporarily put aside my beloved 90s Marvel in favor of getting reacquainted with 80s Marvel. There was no need to get reacquainted with the Stern/Buscema/Palmer Avengers, as I reread those regularly. Which leaves plenty of time to reassess West Coast Avengers and to read Solo Avengers for the first time ever.

To wit, I borrowed the WCA Epic Collection trades from the library, covering the Stern/Hall/Breeding miniseries through Lost in Space-Time. The first volume also includes the Iron Man Annual which has Erik Josten becoming Goliath, the Wonder Man one-shot, the double team up in Avengers 250, and the two issues of Vision and Scarlet Witch that crossed over with WCA.

It's a mixed bag, to say the least!

The miniseries holds up beautifully, Stern once again proving himself the definitive 80s Avengers writer and Hall doing the best art of his career, no small thanks to Breeding. I've always liked the Iron Man Annual, which has surprisingly good art by Luke McDonnell and the team of Akin & Garvey -- I swear that in many spots it reminds me of my beloved Don Newton! But the Wonder Man one-shot is awful. A below-par showing from Kerry Gammill is made unbearable thanks to Vince Colletta, combined with a terrible David Michelinie script. Avengers 250 is just okay -- Al Milgrom's style of drawing has always turned me off, and the story feels like then-Avengers editor Mark Gruenwald did most of the plotting, leaving Roger Stern as little more than dialoguer.

As for the early issues of WCA proper, Steve Engelhart turns in an awkward, tentative performance. The opening storyline, which crosses over with the aforementioned V&SW, is more-or-less the same story he'd planned in 1976 as the follow-up to The Serpent Crown. The through-line about the ultimate showdown between Wonder Man and his psychotic brother, the Grim Reaper, is sturdy enough, but the whole business with the Reaper being a racist who makes an exception for the "black albino" Nekra is ham-fisted and cringe-inducing. Mediocre art from Al Milgrom and Richard Howell doesn't help at all, though I find Howell more bearable than Milgrom. And the third issue of WCA is a showcase for Tigra, a character I've always found off-putting, and even though Engelhart writes Kraven the Hunter very well, in the end it's all too predictable. That's as far as I've gotten. Let's see what I end up thinking of the rest.

Finally, the first issue of Solo Avengers was quite the pleasant surprise, a Hawkeye showcase that delves into his origins and is solidly written by Tom DeFalco and beautifully drawn by MD Bright and Joe Rubinstein. Speaking of beautiful artwork, the Mockingbird backup story is drawn by a very young Jim Lee, in the Marvel House style which had been established back in the 70s, and with strong inks by Al Williamson. I'm greatly looking forward to Solo Avengers 2.

It's been years since I read these but my memory leaves feelings matching up close to yours. I remember enjoying the mini-series and then collecting the ongoing but not being quite as enamoured with it. Didn't stop me buying it and reading it. The effort to spin a tale about the "three brothers" was interesting but yeah, that thing between Grim and Nekra about him accepting her because she was "white" never sat well. Memory says the dialogue and art left Nekra uncomfortable too and it did come from the crazy brother so perhaps it was meant to be cringe-worthy. As for the art it was probably the most disappointing part of the series for me, although I may be thinking of later issues which seemed to be trying to cram so much in that I felt like needing a magnifying glass to see the characters properly.

Not sure I ever read the Solo Avengers series. Sounds like I should check it out.

Thanks for chiming in, Stile.

Good point about Nekra's unease and how the whole thing was supposed to make us cringe. But it could also have been challenging and compelling, if not for the ineptitude of Engelhart's execution. In the end, it makes it hard to feel anything but relief at the fate of the Reaper.

Well, I'm now several issues deep into WCA, and while some of the subplots involving certain team members are interesting, and there's a nice extended guest-star role for Ben Grimm, I'm just still not won over yet. The problem, as I see it, is threefold:

1. The aforementioned Al Milgrom artwork. His villains, be they demons or monsters or whatever, just look so silly that it kills any potential gravitas. The only issue that worked for me visually is the one where Kyle Baker does the art over Milgrom's layouts, the one introducing Balkatar the cat-man. That one, at least, has a nicely moody look.

2. In a word, Tigra. There is nothing wrong with a protagonist having many unlikable traits, but I find her unbearable and impossible to feel sympathy for.

3. Engelhart writes like it's still the 70s, a very different decade than the 80s, aesthetically and otherwise. Perhaps that was part of the book's appeal, but I just find it sad that a writer who had once defined the superhero genre now seems old, quaint, and out of step.

But I'm going to press on and see if Lost in Space-Time is any kind of improvement.

Thanks for your thoughts on WCA, Fickles.

I think I first came across them in an excellent Avengers RPG supplement. In addition to lots of Avengers facts and history, the scenarios allowed players to start up their own Avengers franchise. A really good gaming hook (and just one reason why the Great Lakes Avengers were popular)

I picked up a couple of issues, not in any order. But despite being quite keen, they just didn't work for me. Your comment on them being written like they were in the 70s chimes with my reaction. I wasn't a fan of Milgrom's art on it either. Despite reading Iron Man, none of the cast particularly appealed either, at least in the way they were written there.

I wasn't a regular reader until Byrne.

Thanks, Thoth. Yes, as we agreed earlier in this thread, Byrne's Vision Quest is the indisputable high point of WCA.

Aside...

As I read you getting WCA from your library, the radio is talking about further cuts to library services in parts of the UK. Where I am, it would seem the libraries are slowly being set up to fail. Regular sell offs of books, moving into smaller premises, and reducing hours results in less visits and books taken out. Then the council's declare that they aren't as popular, and announce cuts.

Technology means that libraries across the region are connected and you can order books from any of them. That there's still not a huge choice, and certainly not for comics, says a lot on how all of them have been chipped away at.

... Aside returns you to your regular funny books.

This post is going to be a long one.

Lost in Space-Time, generally considered the definitive story of the WCA's Engelhart Era, is by turns fun and frustrating, charming and creepy.

Things definitely start out on the right foot. When the team arrives in the Wild West, they help out a small group of Marvel's Western heroes round up a whole mess of goofy, gimmicky varmints -- each and every one an actual villain from old Marvel comics. And from there, they travel further and further back in time. Engelhart is at his best when he's fitting the disparate pieces of Marvel's past into continuity, without ever being pretentious or pedantic. In some ways, this is the kind of story that Avengers Forever tried and failed to be.

Of course, AF had the late, great Carlos Pacheco on art, and this story is saddled with Al Milgrom. And yet the time travel sequences are so ingenious and engaging that the art becomes bearable, if only barely.

The present-day sequences, with Firebird/Espirita saving Hank Pym from a suicide attempt, are also well-written, the subplots involving both characters paying off nicely.

Which leaves us with the elephant in the room, the kidnapping and rape of Mockingbird by Phantom Rider, one of the Westerners. I am now more convinced than ever that this obvious attempt to give the story greater gravity and drama was completely unnecessary. So what if the story would have been lightweight and completely retro without it? If getting older as a member of Fandom has taught me anything, it's that the superhero genre really needs to lighten the hell up more often! Dark superhero stories are fine in and of themselves, but this type of awkward cross-breeding is doomed to fail unless the writing comes from a truly exceptional talent, such as Peter David or Alan Moore. And even those writers got it badly wrong sometimes.

According to Engelhart, the stories that followed this one suffered from him clashing with Marvel's EiC Tom DeFalco, until he was shuffled off WCA to make way for John Byrne (apparently, the final straw was Engelhart's insistence on bringing back Mantis.) I myself side with DeFalco as far as Engelhart is concerned. None of Engelhart's 80s work, not WCA nor Silver Surfer nor Fantastic Four, was an unqualified artistic success. Sometimes you really can't go home again.

And...it has begun.

Avengers Assemble Alpha, the first installment of Jason Aaron's final Avengers story, was released in stores today.

I probably won't get to review it until early next week. But if anyone wants to comment on it before me, feel free.

I just finished reading Avengers Assemble Alpha.

Jeez Louise, what a stinker!

Full-length review to come later.

REVIEW: Avengers Assemble Alpha

(SPOILERS follow)



Not since the worst moments of the Avengers' Bendis Era has there been such a motley bunch of heroes and villains with so little chemistry among each other, fighting such boring and badly choreographed battles. Jason Aaron and Bryan Hitch have proven themselves many times over on previous projects -- but a reader unfamiliar with these creators could be forgiven for assuming their work is always this dull.

Aaron's dialogue is particularly bad -- there were moments where I thought he might be channeling the ghost of Mark Gruenwald. The only two characters who make the slightest bit of a positive impression are Captain Carter and Doom Supreme. But with this many pages to fill and this many characters jockeying for face time, it's not enough.

The plot, such as it is, consists mostly of heroes fighting heroes -- the most tired and tedious of all Marvel tropes. When the aforementioned Doom Supreme finally moves in, it's almost a relief, if only because at least he has the charisma lacking in all the other villains and almost all the other heroes.

Don't get me wrong, I love multiple multiversal analogs, but not when they're this lame! The average 12 year old could do a more imaginative job than Aaron has here. And with a lot more conviction to boot.

Still, I somehow got through the entirety of Bendis's final storyline -- remember that one, the microversal adventure with a lame stand-in for the copyrighted Baron Karza? (Bendis called him Lord Gouda, or something dumb like that.) So I figure Aaron's finale can't be much worse.

Famous last words...

Doom Supreme: John Coltrane's 1965 follow up album to A Love Supreme, after he got up in a bad mood only to find the milk had gone off.

Too bad this was such a dud. Hitch has been a bonus to a number of wide screen, big scope plots. So, this one must have been pretty poor to to get the benefits of that.

I didn't know Bendis' had used the Micronauts. I was thinking of a reread of them, after having read some Bill Mantlo Alpha Flight. I hunk I'll give Bendis' version a wide berth.

LOL

That really jazzed up the discussion. Thanks, Thoth.


Yeah, I wasn't expecting much from Aaron, but I was shocked at how weak Hitch's performance was. Completely undistinguished.


The status of the Micronauts in the Marvel Universe seems to be that the characters Mantlo created from whole cloth are owned by Marvel, but the ones based on toys that already existed are not, and can't be seen in Marvel comics.

Micronauts: Yeah, there was a non Marvel series where it was an odd echo of the Marvel series, as they used the toy company's trademarks.

An installment of the X-Men / Micronauts crossover made an impression on li'l thoth. And the Micronauts spent plenty of time in the main Marvel Universe in their own series. Can't recall another Avengers team up. You'd have thought Ant Man and/or Wasp at least...

The whole point of the Bendis Avengers trip to the Microverse was to rescue the Wasp, who had been presumed dead since getting zapped by Skrulls during Secret Invasion, but had actually gotten microscopic.

Ironic that Bendis would end his Avengers run that way, considering that the Wasp arguably came off even worse than the Scarlet Witch in Avengers Disassembled, Bendis's opening salvo. Wanda might have been guilty of mass murder, but it was Janet who triggered Wanda's rampage with a rude and thoughtless remark.

I didn;t even remember that the wasp could become microscopic. It used to be that the Micronauts would grow into the main universe, but still be small.

It was only fairly recently I read Byrne's treatment of Wanda, after the VIsionquest arc. All that Dark Scarlet Witch bit. I'm sure the notes said he liked her character. While he did give it lots of focus, I can;t think of anything that was positive for her. Bendis seemed to follow that up. Were they all walking on eggshells around her for years, hoping no one mentioned kids, had a kid (and *not* in teh Carol Danvers plotting way either thanks, the power pack visited or they rescued kids?

The Wasp didn't deliberately become microbe-sized. It was some kind of effect of the ray she was zapped with. I don't remember the details.

Regarding people being on eggshells around Wanda, I don't think the kids or the Dark Wanda stuff were ever mentioned again until Disassembled. Which I think proves what an exercise in barrel-scraping Disassembled was.

I remember disassembled for laughing at how absurdly Bendis dedded Hawkeye. After random acts where he was trying to increase tension, it became silly. And now a giant monty python foot comes down from the heavens to crush Captain Britain! And now Tony realises he's always been made of iron and rusts! Now they lose their funding (again)! Now most of the FF join, only so they can say "I quit!" like their own book! Now Jarvis is revealed as the Beyonder!

I hated the Scarlet Witch thing in Disassembled because there was a whole story after Darker than Scarlet where Wanda learned about her kids again and came to peace with them being gone (I wanna say it was in Avengers Spotlight but it could have been one of the annuals too)...her powers built back up again after Immortus used her and she led the WCA, never had any issue with Spider-Woman's daughter being around, no sign of mental instability all through the end of that series, all through Force Works and Busiek's Avengers and then we're supposed to believe that she snaps one day and loses her mind because of a single offhand comment?

I have the same issue with characters being all "well of course she was crazy, she married a toaster lol" - the Vision was a core Avenger for years and a lot of them fought to recognise his personhood more than once...Quicksilver being so weird about their marriage was a noticeable trait precisely because Pietro was the only one who thought of Vizh as being less than human.

I just think at the end of the day Bendis has nothing but contempt for a lot of old-school Marvel characters and he takes any opportunity he can to show everyone how little respect he has for any of them. There's something really distinctively nasty in the way he writes stuff like Tigra being terrorised by a gang of 3rd rate hoodlums or Thor and Iron Man joking about which Avenger girls they've banged...Kurt Busiek used nearly everyone who's been an Avenger at some point or another while he was writing the title and I'm sure he didn't love all of them but he understood that every character is someone's favourite and didn't do this juvenile "hurr hurr Hawkeye got himself blowed up because carnie archers are dumb right" rubbish that Bendis did constantly.

Anyway. End rant lol

An Avengers arc about the team falling apart because of the actions of one of the membership called 'Disassembled' sounds like a clever idea.

And after that concept, it all goes loudly to hell. Wanda acts contrary to what we already know (she already knew about and had gotten over her kids being gone), develops brand-new squiffy 'whatever-I-want' powers nothing like her old bad luck bolts, and even that badly-defined 'reality manipulation' is handled inconsistently. (At one point, it's said that her power rewrote stuff *retroactively*, so that the people she de-mutanted *would never have been mutants,* so anyone who fell out of the sky because they lost the power to fly? Wouldn't have happened, since the only way they'd have been a half-mile up in the air is with an *airplane* wrapped around their un-mutant never-could-fly ass.)

And yeah, Tigra *who is twice as strong as Bendis' favorite tank, Luke Cage* getting beat up by street thugs was just more of his usual (vaguely misogynistic) nonsense.

Sounds as though Bendis had his idea, and wasn;t going to let pesky things like loads of stories establishing the contrary get in the way of it. No doubt he'll be back one day with his "Jarvis was a deranged serial killer all along" story.


From what I've read of the stories, Vision's humanity and acceptance of himself and from others was central to the character. It was a thread picked up after Byrne rebooted him, with Vsion showing plenty of emotional hints during later stories and in the Busiek run. Pietro's super power of being a tool proves Vision is fine and that everyone else likes him, and thinks nothing of Wanda being married to him.



Oh, I saw the Tigra thing. I'd forgotten that was Bendis (if I ever knew). That was some of the poorest plotting I'd seen in a long time. Similar to the above, his idea trumps any number of established stories, and this one had a mean misogynistic angle to it. A scene to make you lose interest in a book immediately. So, I didn't see Thor and Iron Man's chats. Which would, again, have been completely unlike them, and enough to make me stop reading right there. Makes you wonder if you're reading about the writer's personality seeping into the book.

It's weird because he always seems like a nice enough guy who is enthusiastic about comics in interviews, but then none of that ever comes through in his work.

I do feel like he at least had good intentions with Superman, the Legion and the X-Men but a lot of other non-street level stuff he writes really does just come across like someone looking down their nose at how dumb superhero comics are.

Pretty much the impression I get from almost everything Mark Millar has written for Marvel or Image. Some writers manage to deconstruct and build in another direction, like Morrison or Frank Miller, but Millar just seems to like to tear down everything better writers have created, plow up the ground, sow it with salt, and then dig to an even deeper low.


There was a great line, from Hawkeye, perhaps in Thunderbolts?, where someone said something about Wanda and Vision's relationship, and he said he had trouble wrapping his head around it at first, but some wiser Avenger told him to just accept it because 'you can't define love.' It was kind of neat.

I think Bendis tries way too hard to be all things to all people.

In my view, Millar likes superheroes, it's the readers he has contempt for.

The worst of that lot is Warren Ellis, whom it seems to me has nothing but contempt for everything and everybody! But at least he's written very few Avengers stories.

The second installment of Aaron's final Avengers storyline is mostly more of the same tedium, except for a pseudo-poetic voice-over which turns out to be coming from...


I can't believe that this arc has been expanded from 3 to 6 issues! Whatever happened to the good editors? I mean, there have been good editors in the past, IIRC.

I just canceled my pre-orders for the remaining 4 installments of Jason Aaron's final Avengers storyline. Money's too tight, and life's too short.

I'm still going to buy the Paul Levitz Avengers miniseries, which has its own thread in this same forum.

Sounds as though Bendis had his idea, and wasn't going to let pesky things like loads of stories establishing the contrary get in the way of it.

How well I remember when Mark Gruenwald did this. He came up with an idea, SHOVED it at Roger Stern, who, after a weekend of wracking his brains, trying to make the idea make sense in light of the personalities and histories of every character involved, said he couldn't figure out how to make it work and make sense. So Gruenwald FIRED him right off the book (and out of the company), and Walt Simonson was happy to just take the money and do what he was told.


Funny thing (not really)... around the same time, Kevin Dooley pulled the exact same stunt with Gerard Jones on GREEN LANTERN, resulting in the fans of that book being polarized for the next 15 straight years.

Hi prof. What were the story arcs of those two?

Good to vote with your wallet, Fickles. Just a shame it was such a disappointment for you.

Thank you, Thoth. Yeah, I had expected that at least it would be a tasty feast of empty calories. Chef Hitch really dropped the ball, unfortunately. (Mixed Metaphors Lass strikes again.)

Chef Hitch really dropped the Ball-ognese - Pun Lad to the rescue!

LOL. Much appreciated!

I'll bet Jarvis, the Avengers' butler, makes excellent bolognese.

I'd never get used to having a butler. I'd really have to be making my own cups of tea. It's a personal thing. I'd also feel guilty asking someone else to do it for me as I sat on my butt in my crime cave.

Jarvis must wonder what the point of it all is. All the villains constantly reappear. the Avengers don't seem to resolve anything. He's just waiting in the mansion for the next villain attack, explosion or other property destroying event.

Which is why I shall pitch my Jarvis & The Punisher mini to Marvel. Only Frank Castle can put an end to super crime. If only he had a man on the inside...

AVENGERS # 291-300.

#285 was the last one Stern was able to finish. #286-287 were dialogued by Ralph Macchio (who has a very dodgy reputation among some fan circles), who then did the next 3 himself (with #290 having heavy Mark Gruenwald involvement, but don't ask me what specifically he did). Walt Simonson then did #291-300, breaking up the team, then assembling a new team, then jumping ship once the mess was over as quickly as possible.

Mark Gruenwald (with Macchio on dialogue) did #301-303, at which point, Gruenwald was FIRED off the book as editor! Gee, I wonder his actions over the previous year pissed off Jim Shooter?



The other story was "Emerald Twilight" in GREEN LANTERN #48-50.

Andy Helfer replaced Denny O'Neil as editor, then had to convince Gerard Jones to stick around. After all the hell O'Neil had done to Hal Jordan as editor, Jones wanted to follow in the footsteps of what Roger Stern had done with STARMAN-- create a new version of the character. But instead, Helfer convinced Jones to "bring closure" to Jordan's career. Together, they worked out a YEARS-LONG storyline, which began with bringing Hal Jordan's career back from the brink, having his re-organize the GL Corps from scratch, and slowly rebuild his life. It was slow going, but after 2 years, it began to really come together.

The problem is, 2 years in, Helfer left to other projects, while his assistant, Kevin Dooley, got promoted to full editor. For that 3rd year, things continued smoothly, and included one special story written by science-fiction author Larry Niven (with art by John Byrne). It was the 4th year things went NUTS. Dooley wanted to expand GL into a "franchise" like SUPERMAN and BATMAN, and during that 4th year, there were MULTIPLE GL books (including a quarterly anthology), plus, Hal Jordan became a regular in JL EUROPE and was making incessant guest-appearances all over the place. For a character who was still, arguably, trying to rebuild his series, this was TOO DAMN MUCH Hal Jordan! Apparently, sales plunged, and Dooley blamed his writers for what HE had set in place himself.

Then, just at the key point where Jones' "Emerald Twilight" was about to finally-- 4 years in-- kick things into high gear-- Dooley decided he wanted Jones to write an ENTIRELY-DIFFERENT story. He'd sunk 4 years of his life into setting this thing up, only to have the new editor VETO it at that point. Jones said he couldn't do it, and so was FIRED and replaced by Ron Marz, who apparently was happy to take the money.

Ironically, when Marz then introduced Kyle Ranier, he was doing what Jones had wanted to do 4 years earlier. Except, under TERRIBLE, character-destructive circumstances.


I didn't read GL again until Geoff Johns did "Rebirth" and arguably "finished" the story that had been left hanging for 15 YEARS by that point. Dooley by then was OUT of comics! So much for "Green Lantern's Number One Fan" (as he called himself in the intro to one of the GL ARCHIVE books).

The Korvac Saga.

I used to hate it, now I merely dislike it. I think Jim Shooter is one of those writers who could be good with the right editor, and this storyline started out with Archie Goodwin, one of the best editors who ever was. But then, halfway through the story, Goodwin was moved over to the special projects department, and Shooter himself became Marvel EiC. That, combined with George Pérez departing the story while it was still in progress, resulted in what charitably be described as a big muddle.

To wit, Shooter clearly wanted to strike a note of moral ambiguity with the character of Korvac. Many readers, especially ones who read the story in real time when they were kids, think Shooter succeeded. I beg to differ. In my opinion, something got lost during the difficult process of wrapping up this long, unwieldy tale, and in the end result, Korvac comes across to me as a sociopathic jerk, no more and no less.

All that said, we have had interesting discussions about this fan-favorite arc in the previous All Avengers thread, and perhaps now is the time for another.

I had heard of it as a classic Avengers story. I'd have picked up the Perez issues in no particular order. Korvac just came across as a hook. I was never that taken with it as being particularly special. And I was bothered for sthatome reason that all those Guardians of the Galaxy would hog up all the many membership pages in future issues and RPGs. I must have considered them not to be"proper" members.

I have it as a TPB. Always a bit weird. The very best Korvac could possibly be considered is a benevolent dictator, and the problem with those is that the "benevolence" is always in the eye of the dictator themselves so there will always be some who do not benefit from it or are downright abused by it. history is full of people who did what was right for others as they saw it and while that often benefited some it always harmed others. However one bit I will agree with is writing Moondragon as being sympathetic to the plan and depressed at its failure fits right in with her character.

Thoth, Stile, thank you both for providing some fresh perspectives.

Moondragon, as infuriating as she is, remains true to character throughout, I agree. But Shooter really overdid it when he brought her back shortly after Hank Pym's downfall. He had her enslave a whole alien planet, commit accidental patricide, and worst of all, forces Thor to sleep with her in that sickening way that 80s comics tried to be more "adult" while still operating within the boundaries of the comics code.

Yeah, Moondragon never appealed to me as a character. But then perhaps she wasn't meant to.

Perhaps not, but at least she was amusing in her scenes with Thor during The Serpent Crown Saga, which was written by Steve Engelhart. Far better interpretation of her than Jim Shooter's.

https://www.comicsbeat.com/marvel-avengers-creative-team-announced-2023/

Hmm. Interesting ideas. Still it's all in the writing and art and since I didn't read Black Cat it will be new to me. Looking forward to the Immonen covers anyway.

It's gonna be new to me as well, Stile. This is the first time in awhile that a largely unproven quantity is taking the helm of the Avengers flagship. Hopefully it'll be a pleasant surprise.

I like that Captain Marvel (Carol) now leads the team. I like that Wanda & Vizh are Avengers again. And that promotional art by Immonen is pretty darn sweet.

Hopefully Kang won't end up as overexposed as Thanos. I doubt he will, though.

Cautiously optimistic, that's me.

I'm glad to see Wanda & Vizh too, although whether I enjoy them will depend on the writing. Both characters have been through so much they could do anything.

I'm taking more of a "If I Don't Like Something They Did, I'll Pretend It Never Happened" view.

I've only ever seen 2 writers do her justice: Steve Gerber (in DAREDEVIL) and Jim Starlin.


You know, its a lot like MANY of Jack Kirby's characters... who, NOBODY else ever got right after him. EVER.

Jack Kirby? I thought she was created by Steve Gerber in Daredevil #105 drawn by Don Heck and Jim Starlin.

Oh wait, were you just comparing her to how many of Kirby's characters have been treated? That makes more sense.

Something occurred to me this morning, and it makes me very proud to be an Avengers fan:

I will never read another present-day Fantastic Four story because Jonathan Hickman ruined them for me.

I will never read another present-day X-Men story because Jonathan Hickman ruined them for me.

The Avengers were resilient enough to survive Bendis, Hickman, Waid, and Aaron combined.

The first issue of the Avengers relaunch comes out next week, and I most definitely will be reading it.

For what it's worth, I did peek at a FF comic in the store a few months ago. It actually looked decent. I'm meaning to have a look when the trade comes out.

I looked at the solicitations for each of the 6 issues that have been published, and...I appreciate the obvious effort to undo Hickman's awful work, but the F4 is to me what Hal Jordan is to a lot of people -- there's just no going back after what they did.

Glad I was spared knowing about any of that. I think I've read Kirby FF and reprints of FF around the time of Byrne. So, fairly unblemished.

First impressions of the first issue of Avengers v9:

I'm sure there's already fanboys complaining about character continuity, but TBH, as I get older I try to live more and more in the here and now. New writer Jed MacKay does acknowledge the most recent developments in the MU, most of which I haven't read and never will. All that matters to me is how much I like these characters TODAY, and for the most part, I do, especially Carol. My one quibble is with the writer trying to turn the Black Panther into The Most Dangerous Man Alive -- my immediate reaction was, "Ugh, Morrison Batman," but then I remembered that Christopher Priest's classic take on T'Challa was conceptually similar. It's all going to depend on MacKay's long-term execution.

The structure of the issue is a bit trite and cheesy, but it does the job of introducing casual readers to the new roster.

C.F. Villa's art is pleasing to me, not particularly innovative but still all-around solid.

Having read the Timeless one-shot special from a few months ago, I wasn't surprised at what happens in the last 2 pages of this issue. But I'll definitely be back next month to see where it goes from here.

Rating: 8 x

My immediate impressions of Avengers v9 issue 2:

The art is rougher. A lot rougher!

Jed MacKay had better find a less schematic approach to writing a team book. If the next issue is structured the same way as the first two, then there will be a substantial loss of my interest in this series.

Next issue is a big battle against a team of monsters. Make or break time.

Rating: 6×

My enthusiasm for Avengers v9 diminishes with each successive issue, to the point where I can't be bothered to comment on it.

Instead, I'm going to talk about filling a recent gap in my Avengers collection: Avengers Annual 13, from 1984, written by the estimable Roger Stern and drawn by the one-time-only team of Steve Ditko (pencils) and John Byrne (inks.)

Stern's script is solid enough, though it's unusually overcrowded (guest appearances by Beast, Pym, Reed Richards, and She-Hulk, augmenting a roster of Cap, Thor, Monica, and Janet) and overplotted. The main thrust of the story is that the Hulk has been exiled to another dimension, and the gloriously weird Kirby villain Arnim Zola is putting Bruce Banner's deserted laboratory to evil uses, including the creation of a small army of Hulk clones!

What hurts the issue badly is the art, and I have to put the majority of the blame on Ditko, with the caveat that Jim Shooter's micromanagement probably did some of the damage. There are way too many closeups (never one of Ditko's strengths) and the rest is unimaginative, stiff, and sometimes incomprehensible. I still haven't been able to figure out exactly what happened to Zola's getaway craft at the end. Byrne, to his credit, does turn in a good job with the inks, but it's sad that this team-up with one of his artistic heroes turned out to be a waste of Byrne's efforts.

Although I like this issue better than most of Stern's other pre-Buscema Avengers stories (after all, Milgrom would have drawn it far worse than Ditko,) it still doesn't change my mind that Stern only really hit his stride with the arrival of Buscema & Palmer.

Anyone else want to share their thoughts on this Annual?

Looking at the cover online I feel like I read it a long time ago but can't access my collection at the moment to check. I did have access to a "comic library" around that time which was just before I started really collecting so it's possible I did read it even if I don't have it.

The story sounds interesting if a bit bonkers. I can certainly see Byrne's influence on the cover. Pity you report on the inside art being not as much up to snuff.

LOL

Bonkers is a good word for it.

Thanks for chiming in, Stile.

Do you have any thoughts you'd like to share about the first four issues of Avengers v9?

To be honest I haven't read them yet. Always seems to be something else to do. Now maybe I have a reason to get to them.

I don't think I've read that annual since I first bought it, so the memory is extremely fuzzy! Can't even remember if I liked it or not!

I remember that annual! I always thought the Beast was way more fun as an Avenger than an X-Man (which recent events in the X-titles definitely support!)

Also, one of the things I really liked was the Beast feeling out of his depth working with Reed Richards and Hank Pym...I miss when comic book scientists weren't just interchangeable...

re the latest Avengers series...it's 1000 times better than Jason Aaron's nonsense, but honestly that's not difficult. I am not really grabbed by it though; the team roster is very safe, and continues the JLA-ification of the Avengers by trying to make them into iconic archetypes....I much prefer some C & D-listers in my Avengers team, gimme a Triathlon or Hellcat in there!

Stile, glad to hear that. Look forward to your comments on v9.

Lardy, no worries. If you've never re-read it in almost 40 years, I think that says a lot about what kind of impression it made on you. LOL.

Raz, I think you've raised a very good point about superhero scientists being far more distinctive back in the day. It also helps to justify why they're all in this annual in the first place. Regarding Beast, though, I have to politely disagree. His early appearances in Avengers, circa the Serpent Crown Saga, those I love, but after that the writers changed and he got kind of annoying to me. As for v9, once again you raise good points -- it is JLA Redux, especially the portrayal of Black Panther as Black Batman; and I'd prefer some C-Listers as well, although you must be one of the very few who liked Triathlon, whom I personally consider the Tyroc of the Avengers (that is to say, an offensive character who might be somehow redeemed by good writing.)

I have to side with raz, here. Though it's probably because I first encountered Hank in Avengers back issues (my first "current" issues off the shelf was the "Spidey...an Avenger?" 2-parter, circa 237), and he was so much fun! I immediately liked Hank and Simon as best buds, for example. When he rejoined the X-teams, the big words seemed emphasized more than his carefree nature. And articles I've browsed involving him in the recent runs have painted him as a dick at best and pretty much evil at worst. Give me fun Avengers-Hank any day!



I've mixed feelings about this. On one hand, you can develop characters not tied to their own ongoing series. On the other hand, I love seeing the iconic heroes teaming up. Honestly, many of the most classic Avengers, like Clint, Wanda, Nat, Shulky, Monica and Vision, started out as C- or D-listers and got elevated in people's minds to the degree that many fans clamor for them in every lineup. There's not much clamoring for Triathlon, Gilgamesh, Rage, Justice, etc., but I'm always hoping for the next one to emerge.



Not necessarily! By and large MOST things I've read in comics, I've yet to re-read, even if I absolutely adored them! (I do doubt that's the case with this annual, though. I recall that many Marvel annuals of the '80s were disappointing, especially when compared to many DC annuals of the same decade.)


When I read this part, I was struck by how the modern T'Challa, in the comics, at least, was actually more like modern Batman is before Batman! I mean, I think we're referring to how Grant Morrison (primarily) redefined Batman as being ten steps (at least) ahead of everyone else, basically the so-called 'Bat-God'. But I feel like Christopher Priest's redefinition of T'Challa is virtually simultaneous. A quick search shows Morrison's JLA debuted prior to Priest's BP, but it took a while for Morrison's take to become the pre-eminent one. Priest's was instantaneous and bolder in some ways. So an argument could be made that Batman is the white Black Panther instead of the other way around!

I think the Christopher Priest Black Panther was a good development - it really gave him a place beyond just being "athletic guy who isn't Captain America or Ka-Zar"...but he does tend to be written as black Batman nowadays, and I don't even like when Batman is written as the batgod so I'm not gonna like it anymore when T'challa is written that way.

There seems to be a real movement these days toward making all superheroes of equally ridiculous power level, and personally I much preferred when the human ones had more specifically appropriate skills to different situations but couldn't just blithely stand up to someone like Juggernaut or Darkseid on their own.

Priest did what I felt was a good job with Black Panther. That the current Avengers writer, Jed MacKay, is getting him so wrong goes to show how tricky it is to write a non-powered character on a superhero team.

Morrison, in my opinion, turned Batman into their own Gary Stu. But, in fairness, I have to say that Bob Harras did the same with Black Knight -- I just didn't want to admit it at the time, because I had such a crush on the character and also because those years were the peak of my enthusiasm for superhero comics.

Dane's a funny one, he's been around so long as a character but he gets such weirdly different characterisations every time he pops up again! I liked the Stern version of him where he was kind of the mild-mannered no drama guy.

Also, I get why Harras gave him his lightsaber in lieu of the ebony blade but as impractical as it sometimes is for a non-killing hero to carry around the world's deadliest sword I still prefer him with the ebony blade anyway. It was cool seeing him carve up robots and forcefields and whatnot back in the day!

When you put it that way, it makes sense that he was so attracted to Janet. Both of them have had wildly inconsistent personalities grafted onto them by each successive Avengers writer. LOL

Preeeesenting...

The Official 30th Anniversary Re-Read of Avengers: The Gathering (with Operation Galactic Storm added for good measure)

Avengers 343 (Cover Date: January 1992)

The cover is a familiar superhero trope (someone is back from the dead, apparently, and he wields a mean sword to boot) but no less effective for it, to say nothing of pleasing to the eye. Even with the overwhelming inks of Tom Palmer, it is clear that Steve Epting is a cut above Marvel's other pencil artists at the time. Composition, anatomy, faces -- he's got it all mastered, all the more impressive when one considers that he had made an underwhelming debut less than ten issues earlier, having had to take over the entirety of the bi-weekly Collection Obsession storyline after Andy Kubert dropped out. A learning curve, to be sure, but, like one of his greatest artistic predecessors on the Avengers series, John Buscema, it paid off handsomely.

And for all that The Gathering is often remembered as being over the top and overwrought, this opening chapter is surprisingly quiet, witty, and thoughtful. We begin with the Avengers' loyal butler, Jarvis, standing proud and dignified on the roof of Avengers mansion, accompanied by the Vision (whose disassembly and reconstruction have left him emotionless (maybe) and looking like a talking bottle of sour milk) and Thor (but not the Real Thor, rather Thor's deputy, regular-dude blue-collar man Eric Masterson.) On the first page alone, writer Bob Harras already establishes a flair for the banter and the distinctive, everyone-with-their-own-voice characterizations that are so much a part of the Avengers that fans know and love.)

Turn the page, and we witness the arrival of Crystal, the erstwhile Inhuman princess who had helped out the Avengers during the Collector/Brethren incident and is now beginning her official tenure as a full-fledged member of the Avengers. Thanks to the teleportation powers of the Inhumans pet dog Lockjaw, she has arrived quickly and safely on the mansion's roof. Accompanying Crystal are her baby daughter Luna and the Inhumans' royal nanny, Marilla. A brassy, outspoken sort, Marilla does not immediately endear herself to Jarvis, nor, I'm sure, to a lot of readers, but in my opinion the comedy theatrics of her sparring with Jarvis are on point and refreshing.

By page 7, Harras & Epting have done a masterfully economical job of getting lapsed readers and newcomers alike up to speed on all things Avengers. When we suddenly jump into an action sequence of Hercules and Black Knight fighting what appear to be robotic intruders, it seems at first to be obligatory and contrived to break up the monotony. But soon, we discover there is a point to the mayhem -- it's actually a training exercise sprung up by the Avengers on their new members. Crystal, and, especially, Deputy Thor are miffed, understandably so, but Crystal quickly and quietly comes around -- after all, as she points out, she used to be in the Fantastic Four. Finally, the Black Knight flaunts his new, Star Wars inspired, energy sword -- this is not the mild-mannered Black Knight we are accustomed to, although it's not as much out of the blue as it might seem, because this newly brash Dane Whitman had actually been first seen in the second-to-final issue of Avengers Spotlight (readers can be forgiven for being unaware of that; I myself didn't know until I first read that issue last year!)

Then comes a one-page late-night conversation between Captain America and Black Widow that remains one of my favorite scenes of this entire Avengers Era. Although I loathe the Widow's pixie cut, which she had been sporting since the early-mid 80s, the creators characterize her in a warm, witty, understated way that I find impossible to dislike (I'll admit I also have a personal fanwank that this isn't really Natasha, but rather an impostor who took her place after the Real Natasha was last seen in her George Perez-drawn solo showcase in Marvel Fanfare, and at some point in the Post-Onslaught continuity, there was an untold tale of the Real Natasha reemerging to take her rightful place; but I digress.) Cap, too, is very likable here as he calmly but firmly addresses the need for the Avengers to feel like more than a bunch of randomly-thrown-together superheroic strangers. Metafictional, yes, but in a good way.

Almost one day later, Crystal is on monitor duty, working on trying to save her marriage to Quicksilver (Luna's father,) which has been on the rocks since she cheated on him and he had one of his villainous turncoat "episodes." They agree, once again in a refreshingly low-key fashion, to get together that weekend and try to work it out. Vision accidentally (?) stumbles in at the tail end of the couple's conversation, just in time to play Agony Uncle to Crystal. And yet again, new and lapsed readers learn get all the exposition they need, in a marvelously economical way.

Suddenly, the placidity is shattered by a top-level alert -- apparently the Fantastic Four are being attacked at their own headquarters in another part of New York City, and they need the Avengers' help. The Human Torch (Crystal's ex-boyfriend) appears on the screen sporting bruises and a black eye, desperately pleading for help.

In the blink of an eye, a team of Avengers (Crystal, Black Knight, Hercules, Deputy Thor, and Vision, arrive at the appropriate location, only for the emergency alert to turn out to be the set-up for an ambush. And who should the aggressors turn out to be but the presumably deceased Swordsman and his mysterious warrior-woman companion? This is a callback on the creators' part to one of the Golden Eras of the Avengers series, and it's the perfect carrot for them to dangle in front of readers and leave them hungry for the next issue!

Originally, I'd read the Avengers from around 237 (dealing with the then possibility of Spidey being an Avenger, which drew young Spidey reader Lardy to the title) until at some point near the end of Larry Hama's (pretty terrible) run. So I missed the Collection Obsession, which marked pretty much the beginning of the Harra/Epting era by probably a little less than a year. I wouldn't become a regular reader again until Busiek & Perez relaunched the book after the best-forgotten Heroes Reborn. I left again a few issues into Bendis's New Avengers run. In the intervening years after I left, I made it my mission to read every issue of the Avengers from the beginning until around 196, where I would be caught up on every Avengers issue that came out before the point I'd previous read. (After starting around 237, I got and read every back issue to 200 and many issues in the 180s and 190s as a young reader.) I'd never sought out anything between the end of the Hama run and the Heroes Return relaunch because I hadn't ever heard any good buzz about any of it. Harras/Epting, particularly, I'd felt from perusing the covers and descriptions that Harras had tried to X-Men-ize the Avengers, especially when I had also stopped getting the X-Men (of which I'd collected before and after my Avengers run) shortly after X-Men 25 (the wedding of Scott and Jean). I'm also pretty sure I sampled Operation Galactic Storm and/or Blood Ties and was unimpressed, probably because I only read particular chapters of whatever X-title I was still collecting and was confused and fed up with crossovers in general.

The bulk of my particpation in this thread's first volume centered around the above-mentioned Avengers reading project, but in and around that discussion, I had 2 particular posters speak highly of the Harras/Epting run. These posters were/are Ann and Cobalt Kid, two posters whose reading recommendations I highly respect. I kept the recommendations in mind. When the Avengers: The Gathering Omnibus was solicited, I decided to first get the issues of the Collection Obsession to see if I liked it. While it didn't blow me away, I decided I saw enough to make the Omnibus purchase. I read it either early this year or late last year and was glad I did. As Ann continues, I will try to chime in and examine my feelings about this massive storyline and all its many detours.

Now, to the issue at hand,343, I agree with much of what Ann says above: the issue is very nicely illustrated, the characterizations and interactions are on point and a mystery is nicely teased.

What I want to comment on, with very mild spoilers, is the use of Eric Masterson as Thor. Though I never really read much of Eric's stories, I felt a pull towards him when he became Thunderstrike and got his own series. I bought a few issues of that book, but I think my dropping it may have coincided with when my original CBS went out of business and my dabbling in internet subscriptions until I discovered my current CBS. Anyhow, I realized at some point in the interim that Thunderstrike was cancelled and the title character was killed off. (Like every character at Marvel, I think he was eventually brought back or his kid took the mantle--or probably both?!?) So I was intrigued to see that the pre-Thunderstrike Eric was included.

So the minor spoiler here (so minor that I don't think a spoiler box is necessary) is that Eric/Thor doesn't stick around very long. In fact, as I read the Omnibus, I don't feel that his departure was ever acknowledged or even given an explanation. Now, Operation Galactic Storm is not included in the Omnibus, so perhaps there's an explanation there or in an issue of Thor, but it was somewhat of a surprise to see him and Crystal set up as the new kids on the block, only for Eric to just disappear. Subliminally, though, I had to expect it because he's nowhere to be seen on the Omnibus cover and was never a part of the teases that Ann and Cobie gave me, nor of what little I already knew of the era.

Anyhow, it's hard to see that the core cast that would evolve as the run goes on actually needed Eric. I assume that the departure matched up with the actual Odinson taking back over his title. Also, maybe Bob didn't really want Eric in the book in the first place and wrote him out at the first opportunity? Hard to say, but the part of me that remembers digging Thunderstrike was a little disappointed. Plus, the continued presence of a novice hero might have added a little something to the mix...perhaps.

Interestingly enough, at least one, possibly a couple more, heroes also drop out of the lineup with no explanation provided, if memory serves, late in the run.

(None of this is intended to undermine Ann's review, but lacking any significant insights to add on the story itself, I thought I'd go on this tangent.)

Lardy, what I personally consider ironic about Eric Masterson's brief Avengers tenure is that I liked him a lot better there, as written by Bob Harras, than as written by his creator, Tom DeFalco, in both Thor and in Thunderstrike.

Now, I have to qualify that by saying that I was never a regular follower of either series when DeFalco was the writer. The few times I read Eric outside of the Avengers, his intended everyman persona seemed overbearing, even borderline obnoxious at times. I liked Harras's take on him better, but I'd be spoiling things to come in future Avengers issues if I elaborated further at this time.

The other irony is that when Eric was written out of the Avengers so that the Real Thor could return and Eric could become Thunderstrike, Harras basically had Dane Whitman take over the everyman role on the team. And back then, I loved the results! However, in 20-20 hindsight I have far more mixed feelings. Again, I'd be spoiling what lies ahead in this run if I were to elaborate right now.

To address some of your other points, I was a regular reader of Avengers from 356 through 384. And just as Spider-Man's guest appearance in 237 was what brought you aboard the Avengers, a guest appearance from Black Panther in 356 was what brought me in.

I felt at the time, and still feel today, that it was unfair for the Busieks of the world to say that the creators of this Avengers Era were trying to X-Men up the team. I was reading both series at the same time and felt like each team had its own distinctive flavor. Moreover, even if Harras WAS deliberately trying to do just that, the results were PLEASING TO ME -- which, in my opinion, is what matters most.

Avengers 344 (Cover Date February 1992)

I love the front cover to this issue! It's so dynamic, and, at the same time, so beautiful to look at -- the very quintessence of mainstream genre comic book art. If the previous issue's cover is attractive despite its cliche design, this one feels just as fresh and exciting today as it did when it was hot off the presses. It's also a fairly accurate advertisement of what lies within the covers, as the crux of the story is, indeed, the swordfight between Black Knight and this strange crypto-Swordsman.

More objectively, this issue is an extended action sequence which suffers several rude interruptions on its way to an anticlimax which leaves the Avengers feeling demoralized and confused. But as we shall see, that was pretty much the whole point!

At first, the Swordsman's taunts merely seem like an impostor's sadistic mind game designed to keep the Avengers off-balance, a familiar enough superhero trope. But as the issue progresses, the plot and the ambiguity both get thicker!

To say nothing of the Swordsman's awesome companion, the battle-armored, raven-haired, Amazonian-looking powerhouse who goes by the name Magdalene. She actually manages to seriously wound Hercules, a demigod, with her energy lance!

As action art goes, the layouts are flawless, but Tom Palmer's finishes have a few too many rough edges, especially compared to the slick, smooth look of the previous issue. I'd love to see Steve Epting's original pencils, to compare and contrast with the printed results.

About the aforementioned interruptions to the battle:

The first one starts out as a comedy routine involving Jarvis and Marilla; unfortunately, it's not nearly as funny as the two servants' banter from the previous issue; it's more like one of those below-average SNL sketches that belabor a single joke for much too long. And there's not even a punchline, because the elusive Sersi takes the spotlight so that she can accidentally see herself in a mirror as she runs down the mansion hallway -- she is distressed by what she sees, while readers are kept in the dark...for the moment.

The other interruptions are quick cuts to a space station far above the planet Earth, which serve the purpose of preludes to the big event storyline Operation Galactic Storm, which will occupy the entire Avengers family of books for the three months to follow.

Finally, we see the battle's post-mortem from both sides -- the villains, who beat a strategic retreat via teleportation, confer with their apparent leader, a sinister and imposing type with the appellation Proctor; the Avengers, for their part, report to their chairman, Captain America, and his lieutenant, Black Widow; Hercules gets my favorite line, after Black Knight says they must consider the possibility that they are dealing with the Real Swordsman, who has somehow been brought back to life -- Hercules replies, "If so...his tortured soul was brought back from beyond the River Styx by the DEMONESS who didst stand at his side! For only a sorceress could inflict such PAIN on the Prince of Power!" (That kind of dialogue is admittedly an acquired taste, but to me, it's CATNIP!)

So, plenty of action and intrigue are afoot in the Avengers' flagship book -- that's the good news. The not so good news is that we'll have to wait until issue 348 for the creators to pick these threads back up, because of the aforementioned Operation Galactic Storm.

I have decided to include OGS in these reviews, not just because I think it's an above-average event storyline, but also because, while there is nothing in it that is crucial to understanding the ongoing Gathering storyline, the creative team manages to sneak in some choice bits which I think enhance the Gathering narrative proper.

Operation Galactic Storm Parts 1 through 7 (of 19) (All Cover Dates Are March 1992)

Part 1: Captain America 398 -- Cap is unable to prevent Rick Jones from being kidnapped by members of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard; slow pacing and dull artwork make this chapter unmemorable.

Part 2: Avengers West Coast 80 -- The West Coasters and Captain America rescue Rick, but not before the Guardsmen have used him to find and procure the Kree Psyche-Magnetron; dialogue was never Roy Thomas's greatest strength, but by the 90s it was EXCRUCIATINGLY BAD; the artwork is frantic and hard to follow.

Part 3: Quasar 32 -- Finally, a half-decent installment, with good artwork by Greg Capullo; Quasar and Starfox battle Dr. Minerva and Captain Atlas, trying to prevent the Kree villains from profaning Captain Mar-Vell's tomb and stealing the Nega-Bands; the Imperial Guard intervene, but what looks like an attack en masse turns out to mostly be an illusion by Magique, the Projectra analog.

Part 4: Wonder Man 7 -- Blatant, pointless filler, made even worse by being played for laughs; the lowest point of the entire event storyline; Rick Jones is mercifully set free by the Avengers.

Part 5: Avengers 345 -- After a subpar showing on issue 344, inker Tom Palmer is back on form here; Steve Epting's pencils are exquisite, especially the giant conference room panel and the attack by the Shi'ar armada; Bob Harras continues to impress with his ability to capture the individual voices of each Avenger; the East Coast and West Coast teams combine forces to save Earth's sun from going supernova, and form three squads -- one to go to the Shi'ar Empire, one to go to the Kree Empire, and one to guard the Earth; meanwhile, Sersi has become worryingly bloodthirsty, which is probably why Captain America puts her on his squad, to keep a closer watch on her.

Part 6: Iron Man 278 -- The first IM issue written by Len Kaminski, whose run lasted until just before The Crossing, and who is my favorite IM writer; Paul Ryan's art usually bores me, and this issue is no exception; after Cap's squad arrives at the Kree Empire, the Kree send their super-cyborg Shatterax to battle Iron Man; a fun installment that actually moves the plot forward.

Part 7: Thor 445 -- Eric Masterson versus Gladiator, Marvel's most memorable Superman analog and the most powerful member of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard; for a change, Eric's obnoxiousness is understandable -- he's in outer space, scared out of his wits, and fighting for his life and that of the squad led by Captain Marvel (Monica); Tom DeFalco's script isn't bad, but Pat Oliffe (who later went on to become a good, solid artist) turns in a hysterically bad job that reminds me of those 1970s Sal Buscema last-minute fill-in jobs that damaged Our Pal Sal's reputation for a long time.

In summary:

OGS stumbles out of the gate, but quickly gains its balance and establishes a brisk, steady trot. It was originally conceived as a multi-part storyline for Quasar's solo book, and it arguably would have been better that way, at the very least more concise and better paced. Still better than average for an event storyline.

Operation Galactic Storm Parts 8 through 14 (All Cover Dates April 1992)

Part 8: Captain America 399 -- Captain America vs Korath the Pursuer, a Kree scientist/warrior who subjected himself to his own super-soldier experimental process; could've been interesting if the script and art weren't both so dreary and bland.

Part 9: Avengers West Coast 81 -- Oh, gods, what a painful read this is; Roy and Dann Thomas make the Avengers' Earth squad so unlikable that I actually wanted to see them harmed by the villains (among them are analogs of Shadow Lass, Shrinking Violet, and Chameleon Boy)

Part 10: Quasar 33 -- Brand-sparkling new Legion analogs are introduced here, courtesy of writer Mark Gruenwald: Karate Kid, Dawnstar, Matter-Eater Lad, Rond Vidar, and a male teleporter who, as far as I know, has no Legion counterpart (Gates would not be created until almost three years after this story.) Also, a guest appearance by Carol Danvers in her Binary phase. Unfortunately, Greg Capullo only draws the cover.

Part 11: Wonder Man 8 -- And the guest stars keep rolling in: Dave Cockrum's Starjammers (Corsair, Raza, Ch'od, and Hepzibah,) whom the Shi'ar railroad into transporting the Nega-Bomb, a super-weapon powered by the cosmic trinkets which the Shi'ar stole earlier in the storyline; Corsair, their leader, refuses on principle to participate, leaving the other three to fight it out with Vision and Wonder Man, who break away from the Avengers squad; the unlikely duo convices the Starjammers to cut the bomb loose and run away...except this leaves the duo stranded inside the drifting bomb.

Part 12: Avengers 346 -- Epting and Palmer turn in a very good job on the art, though not quite as good as they're capable of; Captain America's squad finally storms the Kree's main citadel, but are intercepted by the newly formed Kree Starforce (Ultimus, Shatterax, Korath, Supremor, Atlas, and Minerva,) which has been assembled by the Supreme Intelligence, who seeks to regain control of the Empire through devious means which include the high-ranking Shi'ar Deathbird assassinating his rivals, after which he pins the blame on the Avengers, whose battle against Starforce is brought to a standstill; what really sells me on this installment is the Supreme Intelligence's omniscent narration, Harras once again showing his flair for purple prose -- I like to imagine the Supreme Intelligence speaking with a volcanic growl similar to the voice Frank Welker used for Darkseid, Soundwave, and Doctor Claw!

Part 13: Iron Man 278 -- Iron Man vs Ronan the Accuser; what should have been a classic battle between a founding Avenger and one of their veteran rogues is, unfortunately, truncated and poorly drawn, although Iron Man's willingness to sacrifice himself via his armor's self-destruct program is weirdly admirable; still a pretty decent installment.

Part 14: Thor 446 -- Starforce (led by Ronan instead of Atlas & Minerva) vs The Imperial Guard and Captain Marvel's Avengers squad. Plenty of good stuff here, including the debut of the Guardsmen's Bouncing Boy analog; among the choicest bits is a rare show of bad-assery from Shi'ar Empress Lilandra; some of Tom DeFalco's dialogue is cringe-inducing, but he keeps the action moving along nicely; Olliffe's art is just as bad as last issue.

In summary: This event really gets cooking at its midpoint; I recall that it kinda flounders a bit after this, but the gutsy shocker of an ending makes it all worthwhile -- let's see if that's how I still feel after I re-read the final installments.

OPERATION GALACTIC STORM Parts 15 through 19 (All Cover Dates are May 1992) Plus Epilogues 1, 2A, and 2B (Cover Dates June-July 1992)

Part 15: Captain America 400 -- The Supreme Intelligence attempts to assimilate Captain America into himself, but Cap proves too strong-willed, although the Intelligence sets him free with a cryptic warning about "what little time you have left;" the premise has great potential, but the execution is unimaginative and flat.

Part 16: Avengers West Coast 82 -- Here the story mostly spins its wheels, except for the revelation that Lilandra's Chief Advisor is a Skrull in disguise (the little green rascals have also hijacked the Nega Bomb); this is almost as much of a low point as Wonder Man 7, though not quite as awful.

Part 17: Quasar 34 -- The Skrulls threaten to use the Nega Bomb on Earth if Quasar, who is guarding the Stargates, doesn't let them through to their intended target of the Kree Empire; damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, Quasar lets them through; Quasar then sets out to save the sun, which is only achieved with considerable help from Binary (Carol Danvers,) who nearly burns to death (not in a graphic way, thankfully); Quasar leaves Carol at Avengers Mansion to convalesce, while he makes a beeline for the Kree Empire; the story regains its footing with this installment, though Capullo is still missed on interior art (he'll be back for the 2-part epilogue.)

Part 18: Wonder Man 9 -- Wonder Man and a shockingly cold-hearted Vision are still inside the Nega-Bomb, fighting off Skrulls while they argue about the shaky morality of actually detonating the bomb; that become a moot point when all the fighting ends up accidentally setting off the detonator; this installment is a bit drawn-out and ham-fisted, but it gets the job done of setting up the grand finale.

Part 19: Avengers 347 -- BOOM! And the Kree are conquered by the Shi'ar; but before that, the Avengers round up everybody from their two space squads (all the members survived, for reasons too complicated to get into, but which I am willing to suspend disbelief for,) then head to the devastated Kree throne-world to see if Cap has survived as well; just before finding Cap (and Deathbird,) they are assaulted by Captain Atlas, who has deluded himself into thinking that the Avengers are Shi'ar dupes -- it turns out that the Kree are the real dupes...of their own leader, the Supreme Intelligence, who deliberately orchestrated the genocide of his own people in order to jump-start their genetic evolution, AND Atlas's partner, Doctor Minerva was in on the Intelligence's plan all along (here I have to pause to give kudos to the art team of Epting & Palmer for making the unrepentant Minerva's facial expression so damn SCARY; Atlas sets his battle-suit to self-detonate, as he cannot live with himself; Minerva runs straight into the blast, and both appear to be vaporized; now, the Avengers are divided over whether to be judge, jury, and executioner to the Supreme Intelligence -- those who end up on the killing expedition are Iron Man, Sersi, Hercules, Thor (Eric Masterson,) Wonder Man, Vision, and Black Knight, the last of whom delivers the killing blow to the Intelligence's semi-organic brain; the only one to feel any ambivalence is Eric Masterson; Black Knight has been surprisingly bloodthirsty throughout this intergalactic conflict (not unlike Sersi, come to think of it); and finally, Lilandra and her entourage arrive in all their pomp to make the conquest official; but in a nearby sector of space, the essence of the Supreme Intelligence has survived, and he is downloaded by a pair of loyalists (one of them a Skrull) onto a new computer...

Epilogue 1: Captain America 401 -- Interestingly, the epilogues are entirely the work of Mark Gruenwald; this one showcases Gruenwald at his worst, with trite, stilted dialogue and unconvincingly stoic behavior from Cap, Hawkeye, and Iron Man (perhaps they're all meant to be in denial, but Gruenwald's not a good enough writer to bring that kind of nuance to his scripts.)

Epilogue 2A: Quasar 35 -- After quitting the Avengers (the only one he said goodbye to was Captain America,) Quasar heads back to the former Kree throne-world with his allies Makkari and Her; all he wants to do is help the surviving Kree, but he is rudely rebuffed by Starforce (now led by Deathbird); on a nearby planet, Quasar finds a mystical/religious service for the souls of the dead Kree, but something's does not go right, and that "something" is a giant cosmic monster.

Epilogue 2B: Quasar 36 -- The behemoth turns out to be the Soul-Eater, an obscure villain from a Bronze Age Thor storyline (Gruenwald, who was to Marvel continuity what Mark Waid is to DC continuity, loved doing this kind of thing in his stories), and Quasar encourages the souls of the Kree to stop letting themselves be used by the Soul-Eater and set themselves free; if, as I noted before, Epilogue 1 was Gruenwald at his worst, Epilogue 2 is Gruenwald at his best, a heartfelt and moving tale that takes the edge off the bleakness off the main storyline's dark resolution (although, as with the ELO song "Living Thing," there is a hint of what might be interpreted -- rightly or wrongly -- as Pro-Life propaganda) -- of course, the excellent, if slightly overblown, artwork from Greg Capullo helps considerably (Capullo, sadly, would leave Quasar a couple issues later for the more lucrative X-Force gig.)

In summary: Yes, I still believe that Operation Galactic Storm, for all its flaws (chiefly the inconsistent quality of the individual tie-ins, along with its excessive length and the resulting lulls in pacing) is a very underrated event storyline, and one which engages me emotionally in ways that even Crisis on Infinite Earths never did. Say what you will against OGS, but, unlike CoIE, it didn't change its mind every couple of issues about what groups of characters to focus on. All that said, it probably would have been even better had it been the Quasar solo storyline it was originally planned as (especially since that makes it likely that Greg Capullo would have drawn at least the majority of the installments.)

And finally:

WHAT IF - THE AVENGERS HAD LOST OPERATION GALACTIC STORM? (What If v.2, issues 55-56, cover dates Nov-Dec 1993)

Written by the often estimable Len Kaminski, who participated in the original storyline (he wrote the Iron Man tie-ins,) this is a superb alternate-timeline tale, as dark as the canon version if not even more, but with a cautiously hopeful ending that makes it all easier to take. Its only real flaw is that it should have been a 3-parter, as a lot of plot points are compressed into captions, but, in the end, it holds together and it rings true. Highest possible recommendation (and I do believe that Legion World's own Invisible Brainiac recently referred to this story in one of the Spacepoly forum games -- thanks, Ibby!)

AVENGERS 348 (Cover Date June 1992)

I'll admit I have mixed feeling about this issue, but it has nothing to do with the writing. Quite the contrary, I think this is Bob Harras's best Avengers script yet -- the "A-Plot" involves the Vision beginning to rediscover his capacity for feelings and emotions (perhaps his heartless behavior during the Galactic Storm incident unconsciously prompted this,) while the "B-Plot" brings back Proctor and Magdalene and thickens the mystery about them even more (though none of the Avengers actually encounter them face-to-face on this occasion.) No, the problem is that Steve Epting doesn't do the pencil art -- he is spelled by Kirk Jarvinen, who has a clean-lined, almost cartoony style that is not bad in and of itself, but it's totally ill-suited to Harras's writing in general, and this script in particular.

The issue opens with Crystal and Dane (the latter of whom looks like he hasn't seen a razor nor a pair of scissors since returning from outer space) accidentally walking in on Vision while he is using an Encephalo-Helmet (borrowed from Reed Richards) to project a holographic illusion of his old, Pre-Vision Quest self, locked in a passionate embrace with Scarlet Witch. Sadly, he finds that although his old memories are intact, he still feels nothing when he uncovers them; Crystal takes pity on Vision and tells him that she'd be happy to play Agony Aunt for him, the way he did for her back in issue 343; she then excuses herself to go check in on Carol Danvers in the mansion's infirmary. There follows an extremely awkward exchange between Vision and Dane where the latter pretty much reveals that he's falling for Crystal and doesn't want any competition. After Dane walks out in a huff, the Vision makes a delicious quip: "Fascinating." That, of course, was Mr. Spock's catchphrase on Star Trek, and it would seem to confirm that, just like myself, Harras considers Vision to be the Spock of the Avengers.

Enter the ever-overbearing Marilla, who, in Jarvis's abscence, has had to welcome an unexpected guest into the mansion. Said guest has asked to see the Vision. The guest turns out to be Laura Lipton, a young widow who recently made the acquaintance of the Vision (in Avengers Spotlight 40, the final issue of that series.) Laura's father-in-law, an accomplished computer scientist, had "cured" the Vision's faulty reprogramming by providing him the "brain patterns" of his deceased son, Laura's husband Alex.

Cut to a busy pub in NYC's Upper East Side, where Dane is drowning his sorrows and angsting to Hercules about Captain America's indefinite leave of absence from the Avengers. Hercules, ever-upbeat, replies, "The sum of the Avengers has e'er outweighed its parts. That is our strength." (I happen to agree with Herc on this, and I wish more writers and editors at Marvel felt the same way. But I digress.)

Just as Dane is about to fess up about his feelings for Crystal, Herc's eye catches the sight of a strikingly beautiful woman taking her leave of this establishment -- which wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary if she didn't look like MAGADLENE in street clothes!

Back at Avengers Mansion, Crystal confides her worries about Vision to Black Widow and Carol Danvers, only for Carol to reveal that she has the same kind of disconnect as Vision, ever since her fateful confrontation with Rogue. Worried she has opened a can of worms, Crystal apologizes. Widow's response is that there is no apology necessary, and that Crystal should bring Luna to meet Carol. As Crystal goes to do just that, Carol says to Widow, "She's very sweet, but does she have what it takes to be an Avenger?" Widow replies, "Crystal may not be from the old, tough world of espionage like you and I, but Captain America and I have total faith in her." Relieved, Carol answers, "Well, that's good enough for me." Scenes like that are one of the things I most love about the Avengers, and they're harder to write than they might seem. Kudos to Harras.

Vision, meanwhile, proves that he's not as much in touch with his feelings as he -- and the readers, and Laura -- thought. After she tells him that Professor Lipton is dying of cancer, and that it's important that Vision pay his last respects, Vision callously takes a "duty over all" attitude, citing Captain America's aforementioned absence. Laura, understandably, is beside herself, and tearfully scolds the Vision, until Crystal intervenes and convinces the Vision that he's got to go because it's the HUMAN thing to do.

Herc, for his part, is running out of the pub, knocking over Dane and the table that they had been using, in his pursuit of the witchy-looking beauty he believes to be Magdalene. When he catches up with her, making threats of payback for the battle in issue 344, she sasses right back at him, to the effect of, I'm not who you think I am, and you're not my type, so if I happen to look like your ex, that's your problem, not mine, now back off or I'll sue you for sexual harrassment! Dane arrives at that moment and tries to defuse the situation, stammering out an explanation that makes her laugh ("Now I've heard everything") and walk away. Dane then tries to talk tough to Herc, but the ever-impulsive demigod won't back down.

Some time later, Laura and Vision, accompanied by Crystal, have arrived at Laura's coastal property, where her father-in-law is spending his final days in her care. They find the professor watching home videos of Alex on multiple screens. He is overjoyed to see Vision, and makes a request for Vision to step into a device he has built which will temporarily bring out Alex's personality as the dominant one in the Vision's body. And once again, Crystal has to persuade Vision that he has to do what's right.

At that moment, the mystery woman, who goes by the name of Marissa Darrow, arrives at her Manhattan apartment, having chalked up her bizarre encounter to being just another night in New York City. But as soon as she turns on the lights, none other than Proctor and Magdalene are there -- and it turns out she does look exactly like Magdalene! As Proctor makes an omnious pronouncement, Dane and Herc are right outside the apartment door, the former still convinced something is afoot, the latter pooh-poohing his suspicions...until a blood-curdling scream -- in Marrisa's voice -- pierces their ears, followed by a vibe-heavy explosion. Herc smashes down the door to the find the apartment an empty, smoking wreck. Scientist Dane deduces that it was a plasma blast, and that it bears further investigation.

Back at Laura's house, Professor Lipton's experiment appears to be successful, and "Alex" lovingly says goodbye to his adoring father just before the professor takes his final breath. "Alex" then has a brief reunion with Laura, and they embrace and kiss, but then the programming appears to abruptly shift back to the Vision's personality. Nonetheless, Laura gives him a tearful thank you and farewell.

As Vision leaves with Crystal, she questions whether or not Professor Lipton's device actually worked, or if the Vision contrived an elaborate simulation of Alex just to make his loved ones feel better. Vision changes the subject, but we, the readers, see him shedding a single tear.

A beautiful little story, full of heart and humanity, with a generous side portion of soap-opera and extranormal intrigue. Again, kudos to Harras, and I only wish Epting had been able to draw this issue. Thankfully, he'll be back for the next two.

AVENGERS 349 (Cover Date July 1992)

Reviewing this issue is bittersweet for me, knowing as I now do that not only will the subplot Harras seeds in it will remain unresolved when Epting leaves, but also that its eventual resolution will contribute to my decision to stop reading the Avengers with issue 384.

What makes it even more painful is that it's a subplot involving Hercules, a character I love, and the Olympian Gods he is related to -- specifically, his half-brother Ares, God of War, and his stepmother, Hera. To see Epting get a chance to draw Olympus -- even for just a few panels -- makes my heart skip a beat. It's so beautiful, yet so poignant in its ephemerality.

But let's start from the start -- the issue opens with Black Knight taking the Avengers Skycar out for a joyride, with Crystal and Hercules as passengers. Dane just wants to blow off some steam because the last several days have been frustrating. A thorough investigation of the remains of Marissa Darrow's apartment has turned up nothing to clue in the Avengers about her disappearance, or about her resemblance to the team's enemy Magdalene. Now, there's blowing off steam and there's reckless endangerment of yourself and your passengers -- Dane obviously crossed that line long before we came in. Rather predictably, the Skycar begins to malfunction, and the trio of Avengers are only saved by Hercules using his big, tough demigod hands the way cyclists use their feet to stop an out-of-control vehicle.

The background changes to become the Olympian Pool of Revelations. Hera and Ares are doing what Marvel Universe Gods usually did in their classic portrayals, being decadent and petty and vindictive while sniping at each other. Both are annoyed by Hercules and are feeling bored enough and mean enough to place a wager on which one of them can bring Hercules the most sorrow.

Two days later, Dane's inspection of the Skycar reveals that sabotage took place just before his ill-fated joyride. He also suspects a connection between the sabotage and the Swordsman/Magdalene/Marissa mystery; Dane plans to corroborate his theory by comparing the energy signatures from Marissa's apartment to the energy traces on the Skycar.

In strides Hercules, with Crystal and Eric Masterson close behind, to announce to Dane, Vision, and Black Widow that he has been invited to visit a children's hospice to cheer up the patients for a while; Crystal and Eric have agreed to accompany Herc.

Crystal earnestly invites Dane to join them, citing the Knight's friendliness to her baby daughter Luna, but Dane turns down the invite. The reason he gives is that he needs to keep working on the damaged Skycar, but the real reason is that he still feels awkward about his crush on Crystal. Vision also turns down Crystal, saying that he fears his appearance would probably frighten the kids (probably not, but is an ugly look compared to the classic red, green, and yellow.)

Later, at the children's hospital, Herc and Eric are being gracious guests and putting on a show for the kids, while Crystal chats with Taylor Madison, a pretty blonde hospital volunteer who organized this event. Then, Ares and Hera arrive at the hospital, invisible to all present -- including Herc and Eric -- and with evil intent. Ares's plan turns out to involve him possessing Eric and assaulting Hercules relentlessly, in the hopes that Herc will snap and kill Eric in a rage. When one of the kids fails to evacuate the scene because his teddy bear got left behind, Taylor bravely rushes to rescue him, while Hera cryptically gloats to herself that Taylor is now becoming an innocent trapped in the world of the Gods (something which the resolution to this subplot, which I'll get to at the end of this review, will contradict.) Predictably, Ares threatens Taylor and the kid, and Hercules, after tumbling to the fact that his friend has been possessed by Ares, rallies to resume the fight and save the mortals from harm. Crystal, whom Ares had knocked unconscious a short while back, is now recovered and ready to help any way she can. Herc grabs Eric's wrist and begins smashing the Uru hammer on the ground. At Herc's prompting, Crystal adds her own elemental powers to the resulting lightning bolt, which then strikes both Herc and Eric, finally freeing Eric from Ares's possession. Ares, in turn, becomes visible to others, and Hera makes herself visible. Hercules furiously scolds his relations for endangering mortal with their foolish games. Hera merely laughs and teleports herself and Ares back to Olympus. Eric quips, "Sheesh, and I thought I had family problems" while Hercules makes apologies to Taylor, who is as concerned for his well being as she is for everyone else's. In Olympus, Ares grumbles that his plan may have faiiled, but Hera didn't accomplish anything, either. Hera replies that her plan is far more subtle than his, and we the image in the Pool of Revelations confirms that Taylor has something to do with Hera's scheme.

In case anyone does want to see this subplot play itself out beyond the issues I am re-reading, I will put the spoilers in a box:


So, as I said, I like this issue, but it's tainted. I do, however, give Harras the benefit of the doubt that his original plans were far different from, and far better than, what eventually saw print. And, to wrap up this review on a positive note, Epting & Palmer turn in another excellent job on the art. Just look at Crystal's sweet facial expression when she asks Dane to come to the children's hospital with her -- I ask you, how can anybody see her drawn that way and not love her?

Like I tried to say above, I liked Thunderstrike, but I read very few of his stories. I left Thor very quickly into DeFalco & Frenz's run because it was apparent they were walking back Walt Simonson's visual and story changes and going more "back to basics". (I've sampled some of the run in the past few years, and while some of my then-perceptions are correct, the run shouldn't be dismissed with a broad cloth.)

But I did like his look (though admittedly '90s grunge-inspired), his more relatable "everyman" (as you put it) vibe and the idea of Thor continuing to be a mantle that could be passed on (as Simonson did with Beta Ray Bill). I picked up the first couple of issues of his solo series, but my CBS closing made me discontinue newer pickups and focus on tracking down issues of my essential books online.

In a way, Eric kinda delivered on how I feel Donald Blake maybe should have been handled. Taken literally, the enchantment put on Mjolnir means that any person deemed worthy could wield the power. Donald actually being an amnesiac Thor was kind of a cheat. Thor could literally be Thor as the alter ego, but if Donald were a separate individual, that sounds more interesting. When I read Silver and Bronze Age Thor, I never get the feeling that Don matters, which is likely why Walt discarded him. With Eric, even though he's never truly Thor when he transforms, Eric always matters and is crucial to everything that happens, including the fact that he has a teenage (or tween?) son.


That's an idea that hasn't occurred to me and that I'm struggling with grasping, having read the entire run not long ago. I guess I never thought of him as an everyman but more as a key player in an epic struggle and a romantic lead. The latter didn't turn out the way I wanted it to, but I guess it never could...


Again this was my perception because of how I perceived the art style and the closer ties to the X-books. A Sh'iar character like Deathcry and her Liefeld-esque name and design were a part of that. But I know now that it was just Harras utilizing the larger Marvel Universe and some existing character ties. The perception was definitely unfair and was shaded by my disillusionment with the X-Men after having been a fan for quite some time.

Re: Avengers 344.......

I see what you mean about the art looking rough in spaces. In my Omnibus, the colors are also washed out on some pages--not sure if it's so in the floppies or a flaw in the collection transfer. The main page I noticed this is when Herk first comes charging in. Being that Palmer was also the colorist, this reinforces your speculation about his work not being up to par. Perhaps he had the worst of the deadline crunch this issue?

I loved the main fight between Dane and the Swordsman. It did make me wonder about how Dane's new energy sword works. Apparently, it can be solid enough to clash with an actual sword but ethereal enough to penetrate a man's body to deliver only a neurological disruption. It may be exaplained by Swordsman's weapon being able to fire energy bolts, which may make its energy qualities compatible to Dane's. It was fun to watch, as were the tantalizing clues that this might actually be the Swordsman returned.

Seeing Magdalene and Herk clash on a second read made me think that this might be how a clash between Herk and Big Barda might go. Magdalene has some small resemblance in her design to Barda, and her fierce protection of Swordsman reminds me of Barda toward Scott Free. Barda's weapon is much shorter, but I could see her being a match for Herk herself. That was fun for me as was the likelihood that getting hurt like this by a woman probably damaged his male pride--hence the quote you shared. That's my take, anyway.

I liked the Jarvis/Marilla encounter better than you. Jarvis is so respected and given no oversight that it is funny to see someone come in and just not be impressed at all with him. The "skin and bones" cracks were pretty chuckleworthy, as were the criticisms of his cooking.

The OGS asides were definitely distracting, especially as the storyline was omitted completely from the Omnibus. I've yet to read OGS, but I do want to some day. But it's a distraction and a gap in a collection of the Gathering Saga as is. I do love, however, Epting's drawing of the ship and the spacescape in that first aside. The other OGS asides were well drawn, also.

I will say that Proctor looks VERY '90s! That's not entirely a bad thing, but he's definitely a product of his time visually. He looks kind of like a cross between the Beyonder in human form and various characters that John Romita drew in his X-Men run. So Proctor isn't my favorite design, but I don't exactly hate it either. I'm trying to compare it to the person whose identity he is later revealed to be--there's some vague resemblance, but it's quite a stretch. I suppose that's good because there wouldn't be much mystery otherwise.

As for OGS.........

Obviously, I've never read it, but hope to, as stated previously. The Gathering Omnibus has a three-sentence summary of it, consisting basically of: 1) The Supreme Intelligence put a plot into motion to pit the Kree and Skrull against each other in a renewed war. 2) The SI sets off a Nega-bomb killing trillions of its own Kree, hoping to jumpstart their evolution. 3) A faction of Avengers and allies decide to execute the SI for his capitol crime, with Dane delivering the killing blow. It fails to mention the SI basically survives in the method you mention, unbeknownst to the Avengers. I guess what matters is that the Avengers and the universe at large believe the SI is dead, setting up repercussions in upcoming issues, which serve as one of the 2 major recurring secondary threats (the other one being the one that results in the eventual Blood Ties crossover) beyond the central Gatherers storyline in this long run contained in the Omnibus.

It looks like the part that may be feeding the larger Gatherers saga within OGS is the subtle connection you hint at between Dane and Sersi's behavior. That certainly becomes significant over time.

I kinda wish there was something more to that blue/pink Kree divide, because of the 'Kree can't have mutants / super-mutates because of no Celestial genetic tinkering.' The Kree went and tinkered with early humans, to create the Inhumans, as part of experiments into how to A) potentially give themselves super-powered people, or B) at least create super-powered subject races to use as weapons.

I always felt like the blue Kree were the ancestral Kree, and the 'pink Kree' were hybrids of human and Kree, so that these 'pink Kree' *could* have super-human powers, as some of them, like Mar-Vell, clearly did. (It would certainly be an interesting explanation for why the blues were so nasty to the pinks, even if, many centuries later, the rank-and-file blue Kree would have no idea at all of why the pink Kree looked different anymore, and why some pinks like Mar-Vell felt more at home on Earth, than Hala...)

And then various *blue* Kree appeared with superhuman powers (and not just from amazing tech, like Ronan's 'Univeral Weapon'), even before the Supreme Intelligence's metahuman gene bomb thingie, and I gave up trying to make sense of it. Apparently blue Kree *could* have super-powers, even without the Supreme Intelligence's tinkering, so what the hell was it thinking, blowing up 90% of his race so that the survivors could have *slightly more* superhumans than before?

Good grief, just outfit them all with Universal Weapons, or battlesuits using advanced Kree tech 1000 years beyond what Tony Stark uses? Or learn psychic powers like telepathy and telekinesis, that it's already been established that non-mutant folk like Mantis, Moondragon and Marvel Boy can straight up *learn* from aliens? Or run a couple thousand recruits through magical boot camp (a Kree Hogwarts!), and field a bunch of mystics or summon and bind a bunch of demons or mindless ones or N'garai (cause *that* never goes horribly, horribly wrong, and ends up becoming the basis for a new story!).

There's like, *at least* a dozen power sources in the marvel universe that should have been explored before 'bomb my own species and hope some of the survivors get super-powers!'

I did enjoy the line up during these days, and wish Dane Whitman, in particular, had better storylines then, and was treated a hell of a lot better *now.* (His last solo mini had him derided and badmouthed by the likes of Thor and Black Panther, as he was reduced to the same sort of mostly-incompetent screw-up, held in contempt by his fellow heroes, that Clint Barton and Scott Lang have been reduced to in their latest minis.)

RE: Magdalene and Big Barda, I have it from reliable sources that that was precisely the creative team's intent. Kudos to you, Lardy, for spotting that straightaway!

RE: Jarvis & Marilla, fair enough. Your point about Jarvis being unaccustomed to having his authority undermined is valid and well taken.

RE: Proctor, again, fair enough. The JR comment made me chuckle -- I've learned to better appreciate a lot of his work (i.e. Thor) and some of it I always thought was perfect for him (Daredevil), but his X-Men runs, especially the second one, still look awful to me (legend has it that one of the associate editors in the X-Men office actually called out JR on the half-assed job he was doing!

"reliable sources"? I would be curious to know more about them!

I'm curious if the Barda connection ever occurred to you before having this apparent confirmation. If you hadn't been familiar with her at the time of your originally experiencing this run, maybe not. I think I may not have noticed until I reread the issue a few days ago to provide commentary here. Obviously Magdalene is a lot different, with the similarities being fairly superficial but noticeable, but IYKYK.


I also like that this subplot gives him something to do other than be a hostage or a victim or just to show that he's there to greet people and serve them food and make the expected dry comment.

I'm unsure whether Jarvis' mother was still alive or had ever been seen on camera, but it would have been funny if Harras had her visit and meet Marilla. I'm not sure if it would be funnier to see her going at it with Marilla in her son's defense or having her take Marilla's side and humiliating him more! "Oh, dear, Jarvis--you ARE skin and bones!"


I'm not sure of when his second run began or whether I was still with the book to know anything about the quality. I certainly enjoyed his first run, but having reread part of it recently in Marvel Masterworks, it's surprising that such a fast artist had many more fill-ins than I remembered. His run was relatively short, too, though longer than Paul Smith's to that point in time. I would definitely take Cockrum, Byrne or Smith ahead of JRJr, though.

My take is that the SI is supposedly over rational and obsessed with its people being genetic 'dead ends'. I don't think this is all about the ability for the Kree to have super powers but for the SI's drive to have the Kree be superior to all races in the known universes. Knowing that the Kree are not and apparently have no hope of being superior has made the SI rational to the point of insanity. Justifying almost complete genocide of its own charges in an effort to make them better is insane extremist logic. Of course there are other ways to make your side superior or at least better, but the SI simply cannot see that. It's the SI's biggest flaw--other than being ugly as fuck!


The phrasing here makes it seem like you wish Dane had better storylines during this run. Maybe you truly meant before AND after (the latter is stated pretty clearly in your post above), but I don't know how any Avenger could ask for a better role than Dane got during the Gathering storyline. To me, he is clearly the romantic male lead and the most important male character. You could argue he is THE main character of this entire run! Maybe some don't find his role and all of his actions and emotions to their taste, but this is the Black Knight, front and center, in the kind of role I always wanted to see him in before I finally read this Omnibus! His potential as a lead character is finally realised here, and I'm stoked to talk more about it as we go further.

Not specifically this run, but in general, at this time, I feel like Dane was being positioned for a solo run by his prominence in this era, and could have gone on to be a solo star on par with the likes of Ghost Rider, Daredevil or Wolverine (if not one of the real breakout solo stars like Spider-Man!). But his 'leading man' role here never really seemed to pay off, and he fell all too quickly into obscurity, IMO, after this run.

(As did others who were prominent in this era, like Sersi, who, granted, is perhaps a bit too versatile and powerful for a significant solo run, since it's hard to challenge her without truly epic world-shaking threats, and those get kind of old if they are happening every month...)

I must confess I was exaggerating there. It's really just a couple posts I saw in the comments sections of websites such as Marvel Universe Appendix or Super Mega Monkey -- I just figured, if the poster cares enough to have gone and tried to find out who Magdalene is an analog of, then she or he should be trustworthy.


Here I can categorically state that it never occurred to me before reading the aforementioned comments. But after I did, I said to myself, "Of course!" I even made up a fan origin for Magdalene -- she's the daughter of Scarlet Witch and Wonder Man, but somehow ended up serving in the all-female army of a Darkseid analog (not Thanos, he's too much of a misogynist to have his own Female Furies.) The reasons I decided on Wanda and Simon are because a hybird of her magic and his ionic powers would be truly formidable, because Marissa Darrow was witchy-looking, and because Wanda's mother (Magneto's late wife) was named Magda.


Now that scenario you came up with about his mother meeting Marilla, that I would have loved to see. I'm honestly not sure if Mrs. Jarvis has ever been seen on camera.


Objectively, I'd say that I find JRJr's first X-Men run palatable for its early issues (especially the one inked by his father, where Colossus gets flash-frozen at the end.) It looks a lot like the later issues of his Amazing Spider-Man run, and that style can appeal to me sometimes -- as a matter of fact, Greg Capullo, whose work on Quasar I was praising several posts earlier, was quite reminiscent of JRJr circa 1983-84 at that point in his artistic evolution. The second X-Men run was brief (again, probably because the associate editor told him to shape up or get lost) and it was from Uncanny X-Men issues 300 through 311, with a lot of fill-in artists early on -- cover dates are May 1993 through April 1994, which according to your descriptions in previous posts would be right around the time you stopped following the X-Men (full disclosure: JRJr drew the UXM tie-in for Bloodties, issue 307, and yes, I will be reviewing Bloodties, so consider yourself forewarned. LOL)

Avengers v9 issue 9 is the first one in a while that isn't stultifyingly boring. It also ends with a good cliffhanger, promising a Big Reveal next issue.


Best of all, it has Stuart Immonen homaging the classic Gil Kane/John Romita Avengers vs Squadron Supreme cover from issue 141!

Issue 10 of Avengers v9 is so bad it made me want to bathe in tomato juice. Possibly the worst Avengers-Kang story ever, but definitely the worst ending ever to a Kang story.


Then, there's also an interminable "intervention" staged by Wanda and Thor -- it's for Nightmare! I wish I was joking!

At least next month's issue features the return of Edwin Jarvis. There's no way they can screw that up.



Or is there?

I just made the decision I had hoped I would never have to make:

After more than 30 years of staying loyal to Avengers, I will no longer be following the current series. I can't even guarantee that I'll give the next writer a chance. The damage is just too thorough. And sometimes even the most loyal fan needs to recognize that it's time to move on.

As of right now, the only series I'm following is Birds of Prey, for however long Kelly Thompson is writing it. And no matter who turns out to be the next Legion writer, I'll still give their first issue a fair chance.

Back on topic, and trying to wrap this up on a positive note, maybe now I'll finally resume the Gathering re-read.

I'm not making any promises, but I'm reasonably hopeful that I'll resume the 30th Anniversary Re-read of "The Gathering" later today. This is where I left off:

AVENGERS 350-354 (Cover dates Early August 1992-Early October 1992)

In the late 80s and early 90s, Marvel would often ship several of their monthly titles on a bi-weekly schedule during the summers. 1992 was the last year they did this, and all I can say is that it's a shame they didn't stop one year sooner. In a word, this bunch of issues is a mess. But I would be remiss if I were to deny that they get off to a very promising start.

Issue 350 was treated as an anniversary special purely because of its last two numerals (another thing Marvel did a lot in the early 90s.) As such, it is double-sized and it features not only guest spots from characters associated with the X-Men (Marvel's biggest franchise at that time) but also a reprint of Avengers 53, an early Avengers vs X-Men battle written by Roy Thomas and penciled by John Buscema. Since JB is my favorite comic book artist of all time, I wish I could report that the artwork herein represents JB at this best (especially since this story originally came out in 1968, a year which I have often singled out as the pinnacle of JB's entire career.) Sadly, such is not the case, and the blame falls squarely on inker George Tuska, who appears to have simply traced the bare outlines of Buscema's pencil art in a rushed, or perhaps lazy, fashion.

The all-new lead story by Epting/Harras/Palmer...now that's something else altogether! The art time delivers what is arguably their finest showing to date, starting with the front cover, a homage to Dave Cockrum's iconic cover for Uncanny X-Men issue 100. Epting & Palmer more than do justice to the original, with a typically elegant composition by Epting, who unlike most artists of his generation (he was born sometime in the 1960s,) did smooth curvilinear compositions and lean figures, rather than jagged explosions of lines and blocky bodies.

Epting & Palmer's inside art (Palmer also sharing coloring duties with Sara Mossoff) is superlative! The first three pages, set on a sleazy exoplanet, galaxies away from Earth, are so good I almost want to weep (not only in joy, but also in sadness that, despite his talent for space opera, Epting has never illustrated a Star Wars or Star Trek comic; nor, for that matter, a Legion comic.) In this prologue, the reader is witness to dirty scheming on the part of Raza Longknife and Mam'selle Hepzibah, the two most morally ambiguous members of the band space pirates known as the Starjammers (semi-regulars in the X-Men franchise, who interacted with the Avengers for the first time during a sequence from Operation Galactic Storm.) Raza, with his long topknot hair, beefy build, cyborg eye, and steely demeanor, is clearly not a sentient to be messed with, while Hepzibah -- whom the Starjammers' captain, Earth-born Christopher "Corsair" Summers, named after a character from the classic comic strip Pogo) -- is a sexy femme fatale who also resembles an anthropomorphic skunk; not being a furries fan, it takes a special kind of talent to make Hepzibah look attractive to me, and Epting has it in spades!)

The two rogue Starjammers conspire with an equally roguish Kree soldier to kill the Earth-born Avenger known as the Black Knight (recall that, during Galactic Storm, it was the Knight who dealt the killing (?) blow to the Kree's genocidal leader, the Superme Intelligence, allowing the Shi'ar to annex the Kree empire to their own.) The Kree presents Raza with his missing son's medal, asserting that if Raza does this deed, he will lead Raza to the location of the boy.

Turn the page, and we have a beautiful double-spread of a rather motley assemblage at Avengers headquarters: Black Widow, Thor Substitute, Hercules, Vision, and Crystal representing the official team members (but where are Black Knight and Sersi? Just wait and see!) playing hosts to Carol Danvers (a sometime Starjammer who was separated from them during OGS and rescued by the Avengers,) Quicksilver (Crystal's estranged husband and the father of her daughter, Luna,) US gov't stooge Valerie Cooper, and, finally, Cyclops and Professor X. But this is no party -- the Avengers' guests bear grim tidings of mutant radicals possibly conspiring to make an example of Luna, who, despite being the child of an Inhuman and a mutant, is herself an ordinary human being.) That Quicksilver's late (?) father was the mutant messiah Magneto doesn't help matters at all.

Unknown to all present at the mansion, the Starjammers are about to pay them a surprise visit, under pretenses of reconnecting with their estranged teammate Carol. In fact, it is the most expedient way to get close enough to Raza & Hepzibah's intended victim, the Black Knight. Despite having taken lives in the past (presumably always in self-defense) Raza proves to not be entirely cold-hearted, questioning his impossible situation: a life (Black Knight) for a life (Raza's son.)

And speaking of the Black Knight, he's deliberately been avoiding the assemblage on the mansion's ground level by clobbering drones in the training room down below. Hercules (now without his signature beard -- me likey) and Thor Substitute/Eric Masterson gently approach the Knight to fill him in on the doings up above, only to be rudely rebuffed by a huffy Knight. After he exits the training room, who should the Knight run into but Crystal (the object of his unrequited affection) and Quicksilver! It's the very definition of an awkward encounter, giving the Knight all the more to brood about as he makes his way to the mansion's roof, where there awaits none other that a levitating Sersi! This, at first, seems a blessing in disguise, giving the Knight someone to confide in about his guilt over killing the Supreme Intelligence, but it soon gets awkward, REALLY awkward, when Sersi just up and kisses him -- passionately. Cue the arrival of the Starjammers!

While the space-pirates mingle with the crowd, Crystal hands Luna to the Inhuman nanny, Marilla, so that the baby girl can return to her crib. Meanwhile, a morosely determined Raza gets the drop on the Knight, who had been alone, tinkering with the Quinjets in the mansion's docking bay. They fight ferociously, making enough noise to alert everyone else in the mansion. Marilla and Luna, closest in proximity to the fray, investigate, unwilling giving Raza an advantage when he snatches Luna from Marilla's arms and threatens to kill her! Despite his rough edges, the Knight is still humane enough to put Luna's safety above his own, giving Raza an opening to disembowel him! Just as Luna is returned to the safety of her nanny, Hercules grabs Raza from behind and begins throttling the space-pirate. As the rest of the heroes rush into the bay, Hercules vows to kill Raza!

This is all very good stuff, good enough to make up for the unfunny filler backup story which immediately follows it. Here, presumably taking place several hours before the events of the lead story, we are witness to the continuing feud between Jarvis and Marilla, ending with Jarvis acting entirely out of character by committing a puerile prank (and I must stress that this waste of paper was NOT written by Harras.)

I wish I could say it gets better again, but, unfortunately, issue 351, a regular-sized installment which wraps things up (sort of,) has few redeeming qualities other than another fine Epting/Palmer cover. In brief, the fighting escalates out of control and spills out into the streets, while Black Knight is comatose in the infirmary. Carol Danvers confronts Raza and, in an unsettling show of we-take-care-of-our-own loyalty, concocts an alibi for Raza. Later, after the Knight pulls through and everyone goes to bed, Hepzibah sneaks into the infirmary, in order to do the dirty deed herself. Just as it seems like Black Widow has caught Hepzibah red-handed, there is an extremely awkward (and unconvincing) interrupton from a celebratory group led by Hercules, which apparently leads the Widow to decide that, whatever Hepzibah's true intentions, nothing bad happened, so let's all forget about it and get happy (this would seem further proof of the personal fanwank I mentioned in my review of issue 343, that this isn't the real Widow but an imposter.) In the end, Carol heads off to her folks' cottage for some rest & relaxation, and the Starjammers leave Earth, with Raza bitter and remorseful despite Black Knight surviving, and a smiling Hepzibah proving herself to have ice for blood.

Even if Epting & Palmer had been able to draw issue 351, I don't think they'd have been able to redeem Harras's script, which, as I described in the paragraph above, cops out clumsily. I'm not going to shame the guest artists by naming them, instead I'll settle for a mild chiding for an obvious rush-job poorly done.

And it all gets even worse in the next three issues, a piss-poor homage to the writings of H.P. Lovecraft, with which neither Harras nor Epting have anything to do with. Again, I won't shame the guest creators, and again chalk it up to unfavorable working conditions and a tight schedule.

There is nowhere to go from here than up, and, happily, Avengers soars back to glorious heights in issue 355, which begins an unbroken run of seven issues by Epting/Harras/Palmer which I consider the pinnacle of their entire Avengers run. Stay tuned.