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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610352 12/05/10 12:32 PM
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[snip]

Quote
Originally posted by Chief Lardy:
Honestly, Dawny's not a character I want to see wearing, like, a pants suit or something. As a character visualised by Grell, there's always been a sexy element to her character. I think a character with wings connotes a kind of freedom that would translate to not being uptight about what she wears. Plus, her ability to survive in the extremes of space means she doesn't need clothes for warmth.
I was just looking at some 1970s scans of Black Widow on another board, and I still think just the simple dark leotard, with maybe bright-colored boots, bracelets and a snazzy belt, is one of the coolest looks out there for any female. To me, it's still a classic while all the bared midriffs and huge amounts of cleavage just look forced and cheesy.

I'm just bored with costumes that seem to fetishize female body parts as if that's the most important thing about having a female character in a book. And explanations of it being okay because this character might not need to keep warm in space or protect herself in battle don't wash-- because if that were the case, the men would all be running around with bare legs, midriffs and exposed chests, too.


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610353 12/05/10 12:39 PM
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^ English is clearly not Emerald Empress' first language so lets be careful about what he really meant before we go labelling him "rude".

I think Emerald Empress is for equal opportunity sexiness - which I support too. I also think there's a difference between sexiness and a sex comic.

I agree that Dawnstar has defintely been drawn a little too 'boobs hanging out'/T&A for the last few issues but I think that's more the artist's fault than the costume's. In Gary Frank's initial design the window was a lot more subtle and covering than it is has become since. I wish the artists would go back to drawing it like that because I really like the costume and would hate for her to lose it over an annoying boob-window issue.

I totally agree with you that the sexiness of costumes is totally one-sided in today's comics though, cleome. Look at what the girls are wearing (or should I say not wearing) and the guys can't even show their arms without some fans complaining.

I'm not sure where Emerald Empress is seeing the cultural advances in allowing men to be sexy in comics because I'm not seeing it. Cosmic Boy's bustier and Tyroc's... whatever-that-was feel like a looooooonnng time ago and I doubt we'll be seeing any of the guys wearing anything as fun and funky as that any time soon.

The movement for guys in comics now is for that boring, realistic, "practical" look - as evidenced by that ugly new Batman costume. All-covering and monochromatic. They've even started to get rid of the pants on the outside of the outfit! Boring!

Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610354 12/05/10 12:48 PM
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Blacula, the "human nature" argument gets trotted out a lot to explain why there's so much female T&A in pop culture. I've heard it from fans who speak English as a first language more times than I care to count. Truthfully, I do think it's rude. It's as if the arguers are saying, "Well, this is how everyone is supposed to do it. It's the only right way to do it. What's wrong with YOU?"

Without the overemphasis on exposed cleavage, the Frank costume isn't so terrible, but it's still a little busy for my taste. I like the idea of Dawny's visual dramatics coming mostly from her wings/motion of flight. Too much ornamentation and too many lines and colors on the uniform distracts from that, at least to me.

In the Bat-verse, where few heroes have super-powers and there's a huge emphasis on preserving secret identities and skulking around at night, costumes being all-covering and monochromatic actually makes logical sense. I don't want the Legion to turn into the Bat-verse, but still... What we've got now is its own kind of absurd and annoying.


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610355 12/05/10 01:22 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Candlelight:
So many of the guys who write comics and TV, don't know what to do with relationships.

I think, if it wasn't for the hit, 'Lois and Clark', showing that Supes COULD have a real relationship, he'd still be single in the comic world.
And it doesn't help when you've got fans clamoring for Lois to be bumped off, or even executives arguing that Spiderman isn't 'relatable' because of Mary-Jane and agitating for them to be broken up.

Here's a hint Didio and Quesada, your comic-reading audience isn't *eight years old.* We are past the 'girls have cooties' stage.

The worst, IMO, is when the love interest is used as cannon-fodder to advance the protagonists storyline / characterization, like with Kyle Rayners girlfriend. That's just cheap storytelling, right there.

Quote
The problem with Dawny's old look was that they took it too far with the slit all the way down and open to the point of ridiculousness.
I *would* rather see her in pants. Dreamy, too, for that matter. Form-fitting pants are sexier than trunks and exposed legs, IMO, so this isn't me being all respectful and enlightened, either. smile

At least they got rid of the fringe tassels. Wow, those were ugly. Dawny needs something sleek, as her wings provide enough of a unique and striking look, and a busy costume with crap hanging off of it just detracts from her own amazing visual.

It's gotten to the point of satire, with Shady, who, in six issues, has had to borrow a med-kit *twice* because she's apparently incapable of wearing sleeves (or avoiding getting shot, which, you'd think, would be priority one for non-invulnerable superheroes...).

Of the current team, Tinya's the only one who has any excuse to leave her skin unprotected, since her version of 'invulnerable' trumps even the Kryto-Daxamites (when she remembers to phase, anyway, which, since it's her only power, you'd think wouldn't be an issue).

Quote
This last couple of issues showed lots of crotch and butt shots, some without the rest of the body or faces.
Dawnstar does seem to have the new mutant power that her boobs always strain in the direction of the camera. Even when she's flying headfirst at the reader, her boobs are pressing up like some sort of emergency flotation devices, pulling her towards the page...


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610356 12/05/10 01:23 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by cleome:
Blacula, the "human nature" argument gets trotted out a lot to explain why there's so much female T&A in pop culture. I've heard it from fans who speak English as a first language more times than I care to count. Truthfully, I do think it's rude. It's as if the arguers are saying, "Well, this is how everyone is supposed to do it. It's the only right way to do it. What's wrong with YOU?"

Without the overemphasis on exposed cleavage, the Frank costume isn't so terrible, but it's still a little busy for my taste. I like the idea of Dawny's visual dramatics coming mostly from her wings/motion of flight. Too much ornamentation and too many lines and colors on the uniform distracts from that, at least to me.

In the Bat-verse, where few heroes have super-powers and there's a huge emphasis on preserving secret identities and skulking around at night, costumes being all-covering and monochromatic actually makes logical sense. I don't want the Legion to turn into the Bat-verse, but still... What we've got now is its own kind of absurd and annoying.
^ 'Logical sense' is the argument that I think fans of the new Batman costume are using to support it. 'Logical sense' sounds about as interesting to me in comics as reading the adverts.

I read (most of my) comics for the fun and larger-than-life-ness. The more that's getting supplanted by paying attention to what a man would probably really wear if he was actually jumping around on rooftops, the less escapist enjoyment I'm getting out of the medium and the less inclined I am to continue with it.

But I'm getting off-topic. Back to Dawnstar - I'm not really seeing the busyness in her outfit. It's the traditional all-yellow but with a little brown on the sides. And the tassles have been moved from her crotch to her gloves and boots. Still seems pretty simple to me. Especially in comparison to a lot of the other outfits on the team (most of which I also love - though I generally prefer more intricate costumes e.g. pretty much anything by George Perez, to less imaginative ones e.g. most of Kitson's Threeboot ones). Truthfully, I think Dawnstar's is one of the best updates of an already pretty classic costume I've ever seen.

And to stay on topic and include Wildfire for a moment - after initially really disliking his update, I'm now a big fan of that one too. I think some fans were criticising it at one point because Wildfire wouldn't want to expose his inhumanity so freely. "Who cares?!" says I. It looks great! And in visual medium like comics I'd MUCH rather have to look at something month in, month out that looked fab but maybe didn't make as much sense, to something that the character might have wanted but that looked ridculously stupid and ugly (like that late-Baxter 'human' look he had for a while).

Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610357 12/05/10 01:28 PM
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[snip]

Quote
Originally posted by Blacula:
^ 'Logical sense' is the argument that I think fans of the new Batman costume are using to support it. 'Logical sense' sounds about as interesting to me in comics as reading the adverts.

I read (most of my) comics for the fun and larger-than-life-ness. The more that's getting supplanted by paying attention to what a man would probably really wear if he was actually jumping around on rooftops, the less escapist enjoyment I'm getting out of the medium and the less inclined I am to continue with it.
Well, you can call it "suspension of disbelief" if you prefer. Every consumer/fan has a point where their suspension won't suspend itself no more. tongue

I agree that escapism can be a wonderful thing, but one of the things that bugs the hell out of me IRL is sexism and the visual dissymmetry that's such a big part of mainstream culture. If I tune in to a story of a Utopian future in hopes of escaping from RL issues that bother me, seeing female T&A everywhere and bogus explanations as to why its desirable and laudable instead of cliched and distracting?

Not aiding me in my attempts to escape. tongue


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610358 12/05/10 01:35 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by cleome:
If I tune in to a story of a Utopian future in hopes of escaping from RL issues that bother me, seeing female T&A everywhere and bogus explanations as to why its desirable and laudable instead of cliched and distracting?
See, now I want to see the Legion called to a mission on some planet that has gone totally clothing optional. The artist would have to have plumes of smoke and debris or whatever block strategic sections of fleeing civilians, since everyone on the planet would be a nudist.

It might even make a credible (if humorous) excuse for why some Legionnaires might return to earth after the mission to Planet Flappinginthewind, and rethink their costumes to be a bit less 'breezy.' smile


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610359 12/05/10 01:36 PM
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[snip]

Quote
Originally posted by Set:
I *would* rather see her in pants. Dreamy, too, for that matter. Form-fitting pants are sexier than trunks and exposed legs, IMO, so this isn't me being all respectful and enlightened, either. smile
nod

[goes off to look at that cover of Cham fighting the dragon again]

Ahem. Where were we?

Quote
At least they got rid of the fringe tassels. Wow, those were ugly. Dawny needs something sleek, as her wings provide enough of a unique and striking look, and a busy costume with crap hanging off of it just detracts from her own amazing visual.
That's what I was trying to say earlier, but you said it better.

Quote
It's gotten to the point of satire, with Shady, who, in six issues, has had to borrow a med-kit *twice* because she's apparently incapable of wearing sleeves (or avoiding getting shot, which, you'd think, would be priority one for non-invulnerable superheroes...).
Yup. Somehow the least physically powerful characters are always the ones who show the most flesh. It's almost as if, at a subconscious level, the people marketing this stuff want to constantly remind women that nothing's more important to most of the world than one's body being on permanent display. (Not your mind, not your health, not your safety. Not your self-respect. Nope. Never mind all that.) Because, hey, if we don't get reminded of it every forty-five seconds, we might forget!


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610360 12/05/10 02:11 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by cleome:
Yup. Somehow the least physically powerful characters are always the ones who show the most flesh.
Honestly, I think that it stems from those old serial pulps, where the (white, male, square-jawed, clean-shaven) hero would be wearing some bulky spacesuit, and the damsel-in-distress would be wearing a bubble helmet (to protect her from the vacuum of space, donchaknow) and a *bikini.*

Woman-as-damsels, in need of rescue, and the space-bikini's just reinforce that vulnerable 'need to be saved by a big strong man' image, while the men generally wear more sensible outfits (Rokk in his Frankenfurter outfit, as the exception that proves the rule).

As long as the Legion ladies are wearing less than a Baywatch lifeguard, it's credible to show them getting hurt all the time (like Shady and Tinya, in these last few issues, who've needed that medkit a lot more than any of the guys) and needing be all rescued and stuff.

It also doesn't help that the Legion ladies were designed in the '70s, and, unlike Claremont's 'X-Babes' are hardly the heavy-hitters of the team. If the team included less Shady and Dreamy, and more Laurel and Kara*, there'd at least be a flimsy excuse for them to wander around in bellyshirts and buttfloss (not that Mon-El and Kal-El, two of the male powerhouses, aren't two of the least-skin-showing Legionnaires, so even that would be a sad rationalization...).


*Caveat, I like Shady and Dreamy about 50,000x more than Andromeda and Supergirl, so I wouldn't want that, really. smile


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610361 12/05/10 02:24 PM
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[snip]

Quote
Originally posted by Set:
See, now I want to see the Legion called to a mission on some planet that has gone totally clothing optional. The artist would have to have plumes of smoke and debris or whatever block strategic sections of fleeing civilians, since everyone on the planet would be a nudist...
lol There was an old issue of Donna Barr's The Desert Peach comic that more or less did this. Everyone went surfing in the buff, but there was (almost) always a strategically placed board/hat/ocean wave available at the moment when the stars of the book needed them most.

Quote
...As long as the Legion ladies are wearing less than a Baywatch lifeguard, it's credible to show them getting hurt all the time (like Shady and Tinya, in these last few issues, who've needed that medkit a lot more than any of the guys) and needing be all rescued and stuff...
I wonder if anyone's thought to bring this up with Levitz on Facebook. If they ever do, I'd be curious as to what his response would be.

Quote
If the team included less Shady and Dreamy, and more Laurel and Kara*, there'd at least be a flimsy excuse for them to wander around in bellyshirts and buttfloss (not that Mon-El and Kal-El, two of the male powerhouses, aren't two of the least-skin-showing Legionnaires, so even that would be a sad rationalization...).


*Caveat, I like Shady and Dreamy about 50,000x more than Andromeda and Supergirl, so I wouldn't want that, really. [Smile]
shrug I think there's room for all kinds of powers. I'd love to see Shady use shadows the way that Sue Storm-Richards eventually came to use invisibility: to build constructs, weapons and the like; turning a passive power into one more suited to combat. The same with the rare occasions that we've seen Phantom turn other people and things intangible.

Oh, hell. It's canon that the first IK had to consciously become more combat-oriented before the rest of the team thought he was good enough to be voted leader. It's not as though the idea's never been used or heard of before.


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610362 12/05/10 03:38 PM
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I only want to say:
If the legionnaires girls were not so sexy (Jeckie, Nura, Shady, Imra, Dawny in the 70's) . I would never be a fan of the series.
My others favorite female heroes and villains are Vampirella, Lady Death and Tarot.
I like the sexy people, it's all. The X-Men have Psylocke, White Queen, Storm, too.
And by the way I'm from Spain.


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610363 12/05/10 04:38 PM
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Well, I never would have guessed that, EE!
(Just kidding. Your written 'accent' is very specific and clear and I love reading it.)

I'm glad that TPTB removed some of Dawny's fringe. Not just because it was distracting, and it was, or because it was so poorly placed, gads, but it was also cliched for the American Indian.
sigh

We've seen Starhaven and her parents a very few times in the past.
Bedard changed all of that though in dotREBELS with his invention of Wildstar and her Starhaven.
I don't think that Levitz is going to be able to change it either.

I think that if comics want to survive, they need to gain more respect and broaden their readership base to include women/girls.

I joined when the Legion was in the early years and the costumes weren't sexy or sexist, like they are now.
My daughter-in-law won't let my 4 grandaughters anywhere near comics.

Guys may want sexy but if mainstream comics want to stick around there has to be some shifting back to a rating that works for everyone.

Keep the Lady Deaths, but keep them in the adult storytelling genre, imo.


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610364 12/06/10 07:04 AM
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I like all of the costume modifications done by Gary Frank. They are character driven and creative. Lightning Lass and Lad, Saturn Girl and Shrinking Violet all look great with their upgrades. I really hated the costumes worn by the last incarnation of the Legion with those bare midriffs as they betrayed no imagination on the part of the artist. Comics are a visual medium, and I like visually exciting costumes. The gold standard for me is Cockrum. My first Legion issue was Superboy #197, so Princess Projectra is burned into my hard drive. Skin is really beside the point, for me. Another favorite costume is the Duo Damsel body suit created by Giffen, and I hated the Cosmic Boy black strapless number as it really didn't fit his character.

Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610365 12/06/10 08:27 AM
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^ I loved Cosmic Boy's bustier but you're right in that it didn't really fit his character.

Trying to think of which guys on this team could get away with showing a little flesh -

* Tyroc obviously has/had no problem with it.
* Blok also.
* Element Lad could get away with it too I think.
* Sun Boy ditto.
* Timber Wolf as well.
* Ultra Boy maybe.

Guys that probably would/should stay covered up -

* Bouncing Boy... laugh
* Colossal Boy tried to show off his legs in the 70s and it didn't really look good. With a different costume it could work though.
* Brainiac 5 I don't see stripping off.
* Cosmic Boy neither (despite history).
* Mon-el also seems the fully covered type.
* Polar Boy looks better in clothes.

The rest I'm not too sure on.

Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610366 12/06/10 09:46 AM
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pffft! Tellus is naked all the time and Gates' first appearance was in the buff as well. Legion gals got nothin' on these two.

wink laugh

Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610367 12/06/10 09:58 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by cleome:
...I'd also like to see Drake either able to make a more human-appearing energy construct (as he was shown to do briefly later in Levitz' first run)...
He lost that ability after Quislet returned to his home microverse. Now that quislet is back, there should be no reason that Drake can't start to "humanize" his form again. What say you to this, Mr. Levitz?


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610368 12/06/10 10:01 AM
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On the whole Dawnstar costume controversy, I realize that I'm probably the only one who feels this way, but I'd like to see the return of her Magic Wars era costume/look.


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610369 12/06/10 10:25 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Candlelight:
...I'm glad that TPTB removed some of Dawny's fringe. Not just because it was distracting, and it was, or because it was so poorly placed, gads, but it was also cliched for the American Indian...
This is one of those issues that's hard to debate; nonetheless, I'm going to try.

Yes, some Native-Americans may feel that fringes on clothing is somewhat cliched, but I assure you that many others do not. Its a matter of different individuals' personal choices, with neither one being wrong.

Now, on the pro-fringes side of things, I know for a fact that some Native-Americans do proudly wear leather jackets that are so adorned. While this may be driven in part by sincere aesthetic appreciation for fringes, I suspect that such garments are also worn out of sense of cultural pride, continuity, and assertion, too.

So, ultimately, I suppose that I'm trying to say this: don't be too quick to dismiss what you perceive to be a cliched fashion feature for Native-Americans. Some will agree with you, but others may take pride in seeing a bit of their culture appearing in the book.

Having said this, though, I hasten to add that I'm glad that you voiced your opinion on the matter, Candlelight, and that this was not meant to chastize you or your fair opinion. Rather, I'm simply presenting an alternative view for our fellow readers' consideration.

Cheers!


If the meek shall inherit inherit the Earth, then I at least want Baffin Island - and a property manager to work for me who is made of sterner stuff than I.
Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610370 12/09/10 10:10 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by EmeraldEmpress:
I only want to say:
If the legionnaires girls were not so sexy (Jeckie, Nura, Shady, Imra, Dawny in the 70's) . I would never be a fan of the series.
Great. But some fans find this kind of thing disagreeable, especially the recent examples that are often more exaggerated and hard to avoid than they were years ago-- when so many of us first became fans of this comic or others like it. It doesn't mean that we are all conservative moral crusaders who hate sex. It just means that some of us think there's a time and place for everything.

For every fan who likes these things, there is no calculation of how many other potential fans --especially older female fans-- might be discouraged from buying and enjoying the book because of it.

Quote
My others favorite female heroes and villains are Vampirella, Lady Death and Tarot.
I like the sexy people, it's all. The X-Men have Psylocke, White Queen, Storm, too.
And by the way I'm from Spain.
But there's no reason that every last female in comics has to look like these characters do. Other fans have different tastes and preferences. Why is that wrong?


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610371 12/09/10 11:23 PM
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Not "every last female in comics" is dressed provocatively. Saturn Girl, Lightning Lass, and Duplicate Damsel are all dressed fairly modestly for example.

And I'm thinking "older females" have never been and never will be the target audience for most comics. You can't blame comic creators for marketing to the largest comic-buying demographic segment, which is younger males.

However, I do agree that it's ridiculous how skimpy some costumes such as Shady's are. And the boob windows need to go too.

IMHO, of course.


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610372 12/10/10 01:06 AM
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Their fairly modest at the moment but have been much less so at various times in the past.
Ayla's at the moment may have long sleeves and harken back to Adventure days, the the G-string panties are just wrong, imo.

And we may be aged, but a lot of females think like we do, imo, and DC (comics in general) would do well to alter things just a little to bring in more female readers.

Girls make up over 50% of the population AND they read more than boys AND are more likely to spend their money on books and related items.

What's this thread about?
Oh yes, Dawnstar and Wildfire.
How come Wildfire's suit isn't more like Wildstar's?

I'm fluffy.


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Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610373 12/10/10 03:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,394
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Posts: 1,394
In defense of Wildfire and Dawnstar:

1) I think both characters were unique at the time of their introduction and are good characters to keep around.

2) Neither one needs to be "amped up" in power. Wildfire has always been potentially great, power-wise. Dawnstar has the unique (to the Legion) power of tracking, as well as super-speed, maneuverability, and natural space travel (without suit protection or oxygen). She has plenty of power. The nice thing about the not-so-great powered Legionnaires is that they can combine into a formidable force. Vulnerability and their struggle to overcome overwhelming odds makes them more heroic and interesting, IMO.

3) As a couple, Wildfire and Dawnstar are probably the oddest currently in the Legion, which again has potential for a story. I always thought there was an untold story out there about Wildfire losing his hold on his own humanity (loss of sense of touch, smell?, possible immortality) and Dawnstar being his anchor to humankind. It was touched on briefly with his changed form under Quislet's guidance, but I feel that this could be explored much deeper.

4) I am not a big fan of the "boob window" and could easily do without it. I am not keen on Dawnstar's current costume and detest Wildstar's outfit. I am with Mediocre Boy in that I liked the Magic Wars Dawnstar outfit on her best (but wouldn't want to draw it regularly). It makes sense to me that Legionnaires would have dress reflecting their own unique cultures. Wildfire's latest looks (DnA and G. Frank's) have grown on me, maybe because he looks a little more Gort-like and less human (see #3).


Celebrating 10+ years of Legion Worldness
Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610374 12/11/10 01:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,394
Space Fatigue Survivor
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Quote
Originally posted by Dave Hackett:
pffft! Tellus is naked all the time and Gates' first appearance was in the buff as well. Legion gals got nothin' on these two.

wink laugh
Has it been established what sex these two actually are? They may both be female for all we know...


Celebrating 10+ years of Legion Worldness
Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610375 12/11/10 04:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,685
R
Legionnaire!
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I think it would be kind of cool if the Hykraians were like some frogs and changed gender throughout their lives. Tellus could find the whole idea of boys and girls being forever separate entities a bit of a quaint notion...

Re: Dawnstar and Wildfire
#610376 12/11/10 06:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 8,297
Wanderer
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In past stories, and especially around the time Tellus was first introduced, it was established the he is a "he".
The other Legionnaires refer to him as he anyway.

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