Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! LSH 44 spoilers

I automatically pronounce his name "Morrissey", like the alternative rocker. Not sure if that's how it should be pronounced or if it's meant to be a play on that guy's name at all. Given what we're learning about Shooter's namings in this run, he might very well have somebody specific in mind.

Hmmm...I wonder who did Marvel's bookkeeping while Shooter was there?

What about fans wanting Superboy-Prime to punch Judd Winick's head off? That too oblique (and too funny!) to violate the rule?

I read earlier here that M'Rissey was named after a prominent Legion fan who passed away.

Ah, but that was in reference to an earlier event/in-joke at the real-life meeting. We never actually campaigned for such a thing on Legion World.

So, hypothetically, no "101 people who should behead Judd Winick" thread wouldn't be tolerated here? Personally, I think it would be so comical that nobody'd likely be offended, but rules are rules...

Well, likely you're right but assuredly the return of Jason Todd and "Decisions" would have to be taken into account.

Yep, definitely should be!

<By the way, not trying to discard the more serious talk, guys, but a little levity never hurt! >

Thanks for the clarification.


I knew the Legion creators were off limits for sure. Plus I like all of them, there's only two comic guys in all of comics I really don't like and neither of them were ever Legion creators. .

Not to mention any names, but after reading that rule I'm guessing using terms like "the Time Trapper incarnate", "stupidest man to ever write comics", and my personal favorite, " couldn't outthink a 9 year old in an Adventure Comics letter column", would indeed cross the line, even if they were in reference only to writing lol.

okay! i think i really misunderstood what nightcrawler said and what people were objecting to! thanks so much to blacula and blockade boy who both wrote very nice, long, honest and notes to me explaining things, which set and others here have also explained. personally, it's very difficult for me to distinguish between what a person creates and what a person IS because... well, when I make something, it does in fact reflect who I am. I wasn't aware that the board and the members here were making that distinction; that it was ok for me to criticize the text but not exactly the person, that's a standard I'm not familiar with dealing with discourse. I guess that's just the sort of person i am! i can see why, for pragmatic reasons it would be troublesome because making it personal can degrade quickly into flamewar thing, and this also explains replies i got that seemed very offended/upset. so i'll try to keep from doing that.

i've worked in comics and games, and you know, stuff considered in the same sort of entertainment pop culture type category. and in my office and in my experience as an editor and writer and an artist, i'm ALWAYS trying to make sure I think about my audience and not to do things that fall into traps of sexism, racism, what-have-you etc. because i have a boss and they would totally call me on that sort of thing! (and.. i wouldn't do that but speaking in general!). gender relations and racism and homophobia are things i DO take into consideration when I create things and if someone working with me was creating things i found offensive/etc, i'd communicate that to them.

yes, sometimes it's unintentional! but i feel that people should be accountable for what they create and what they dictate to others, etc. sometimes, i think you guys forget that these creators are people at jobs just like you! they don't get special rules or laws just because they work in comics! if someone's being out of line... they're out of line! you can't grab someone's butt at work, right?

so my first line about him not getting a free pass was in response to some of superboy's remarks that recounted what shooter's done in the past.

people keep bringing up that i'm holding that interview against him. i had NO IDEA that interview existed until someone showed it to me on THIS BOARD. and this was AFTER i'd posted going "whoa, this issue was kind of weird, what is going on!".

i wasn't even holding his reputation in the gay community against him because i KEPT BUYING THE BOOK when he started writing it. and i was confused but still going with it because it was funny enough in some parts and i love the art. he hasn't even done anything in the legion that i would consider over the top homophobic, there are just a few things that are admittedly worrisome to me given his past.

set- yes i do exist in the real world, i've had sexist bosses (one was a lesbian female, no less!) and i do quite well by... not putting up with it! I raise hell! well usually I cry a lot and then I figure out what to do. but AFTER lots of crying, i report it and... they're fired or it's suggested that they resign because a person like that is a liability! but no, i don't implode, i handle myself quite well thank you. my problem with the situation was that it seemed that i wasn't allowed to have my opinion on the writing, but the actual problem nightcrawler was referring to was my conflation of "shooter" and "shooter's text". so as everyone was jumping down my throat about it, it sounded like "how can you insult our precious writer" and "you're not allowed to express that criticism".

ok so i hope that explains things...! i really love the legion and i want it to do well, and i'm worried that stories like these turn off potential readers! and i want it to do well, is all! but it looks like, from all the recent news and such that things will be changing in the next few months, so i think i can hang on until then at least to see what new incarnation the legion takes....and i want querlnura with a burning passion.

as a professional, i DO hold the creator personally responsible for what they create and i DO feel it reflects that person's psyche/agenda/ethics/etc just like i think being of a certain background informs a person's writer (a former doctor might write lets say a crime story in a different way from a former cop!). so please understand why when I wrote all that, the two subjects were one in the same in my mind. i will try very hard in the future not to conflate and combine the two subjects to prevent problems.

thanks for all the patient and kind words. it really changed my mind about how people are on this board @_@! i wasn't expecting that at all! i feel a lot better about the ahh... temperment or i can't find a word, but maybe temperment of the board seems like... i have a better hope for humanity! Something else else! i'll try to be better!

LONGEST POST EVER.

veryvery, I'm very, VERY ( ) glad your time away was short. I value your opinion greatly and would have been sad to see you go. There are rules to this message board, and I think they are fair. Legion World has always been partly about being an oasis from all the flaming that characterizes internet boards. These rules have always been about preserving that oasis. At times, I have to use all the restraint I can muster to keep conversations on certain topics civil, but I'm always glad I did when I'm removed from the heat of the moment.

So welcome back to you, vv--and to your obscenely long posts!

One thing I’d like you to take under consideration is that you’re addressing two distinct persons here, even if there’s overlap – but not accordance – in their opinions.

“However, if you cannot go back, look at your post and see where some of what you said would be considered a personal attack, then perhaps these boards are not for you.”

strikes me as a bit of a foregone conclusion that I have somehow shown unwillingness to go back and look at my posts; however, Blockade Boy pointing out the issue of personal attacks, your post, and me having a chance to react to both are happening at the same time for me.

You won’t find me saying anywhere “X is sexist” or something comparable. I’ve always tried to keep separate a writer and his/her work, but it seems I have transgressed that line at some places.

I’ve roughly gone over my prior posts now, and I apologise for the "I think Shooter has thought too much about the logistics of this rape scenario" and the crack about him writing sequels to the Gor novels, that was out of line. If I went into “Joe Shmoo’s a hack” –territory, then I apologise for that as well.

Have I insulted any of the posters on here, e.g. Jerry or Kid Quislet? If yes, I’m very sorry - I see now that I’ve taken a confrontational tone when answering them, but I swear it was aimed at the subject discussed and not at them at all. Apologies to you both.

Thanks, Superboy, Set et al. for engaging with me in a friendly manner – and not to worm out of an ongoing discussion, but I’d like and take the good advice upthread that sometimes, further discussion won’t advance the issue. I hope you’re okay with that.

I’d also like to apologise to the poor bystanders, for whom coming into this thread must have been something akin to trying to spend a nice day at the lake only to find the Battle of Trafalgar taking place in it.

Thank you all for your time and patience.

You did not offend me, Insomniac Girl. You essesentailly asked if I was downplaying the images in question to make myself feel better about the story. It's a valid question. I had to think about whether or not I was. I wasn't offended at all.

Besides, the best thing about message board conversations is that if one gets offended too badly, it's pretty easy to turn the darn computer off and go find something else to do fo a while.

Thank you veryvery and Insomniac Girl for your understanding.

Hopefully, everyone who needed it got a wakeup call and will try to err on the side of being respectful in the future. I myself have made these mistakes in the past.

I asked the Moderators to replace the name of a friend into a post that they feel may violate the rule. It'll help to see if the criticisms are personal or if its just about the writing or art.

I was uncomfortable with the Ayla 'at the mercy of the pirates' scene. I think a large part of the appeal of comics for me and the Legion in particular, is seeing strong women who aren't victims. (Unlike me in real life, if someone wants to make things hard for me I can't do much 'cause I don't have any super powers. Which is very unfair! lulz...anyway)

The scene with Ayla did disturb me a little. I don't know if it's sexism so much as an attempt at realism? This is the sort of troubling way that villains are wont to act in real life.

But then again who reads comics for realism? I'd rather have seen Ayla a little less helpless there.

I personally don't find the characterisation of the girls sexist. Shooter is writing all the characters to have flaws, male and female. I'm enjoying his take on them, personally.

Something else else no one has mentioned really...

Ikilles knocked TimberWolf out cold with one punch...and that was after TimberWolf got the first punch in on him. This guy was a powerful fighter. Has TimberWolf ever been knocked out with a single punch before? I don't think he has.


So it's not like Ikilles was a typical human...and Ayla's powers are not physical in nature. I am kinda surprised she couldn't use her light powers tied up...but maybe it had something to do with her hands. When she got her hands free she had no problems cleaning house.

The guy who ended up being the hero on this mission was the guy that even the girls were calling a wimp, Invisible Kid. And he was the weakest member of the team on the mission. I think that was the point Shooter was making, if any.

I really was disappointed in this issue. The dialogue seemed...amateur. All the dialogue sounded like everyone was 14 years old.

The art.....ugg too sloppy for this book. To go from FM's artwork to.....this. I hope FM does the interior work next issue.

The thing with Ayla didn't bother me as it was pirates who were doing it and well....they are pirates. They plunder, rape and kill.

This issue just did not seem like it was done with Shooter....it was totally different from all his other writer. I am guessing Shooter might have loosely plotted in and they brought in another writer to do the dialogue. I am guessing this issue was completed during Shooter's absence.

I definitely will never pick up this issue and re-read. I would actually return it if I could.....it felt like a waste of money.

Just out of curiosity guys...

How'd ya'll have felt if the interior of the comic, and Ikilles, looked something like this:




Neal Adams rules...still. And that's a brilliant cover design. Ikilles looks downright Satanic there...and I have a feeling that's the way he was intended to look in the comic.

Dude knocked TWolf out with one punch...after TWolf got the first punch in.

I don't want to bash on Greene but his art was a really poor fit for this story. Perhaps if the interior art had been more serious in tone, it wouldn't have the vibe of Shooter taking the rape scenes lightly. That art makes you take it lightly, beacause it's light hearted art.

...what am i seeing in that picture? @__@ is lyle a giant?!

hahha secretly, that cover would have driven me crazy because i secretly go crazy when something on the cover doesn't happen in the issue or if certain details are slightly different *like what they're tied to*.

ahhh, i think i'd be crying a lot more if manapul had done the art, like i think it would have been more serious and even more upsetting if that makes sense @_@! so maybe the mistake kept me from reacting more strongly.

This was a fun issue, and I think that was the point. I enjoyed Greene's art -- not every panel, but many of them. It has a very dynamic quality, like Darwyn Cooke's (not nearly as good yet, of course). But back to the point about the story. On Velmar, the Legion is fighting a bunch of space pirate goons. Shooter could have portrayed them all serious-like, some 1990s exaggerated more evil-than-evil thing. Instead, we see that they ARE very bad people, but also kinda funny. It's a nice contrast with the marauding purple thingies, who are all 1990s death-and-destruction. It's NOT funny that Ikilles is a murderer, a rapist, a pirate. But it IS funny that he thinks he's better than he is, and that he's acting the part of the pirate captain as much as anything, and that he's trying to talk his girfriend into letting him have his way with Ayla for professional reasons. I DON'T think the rape threats against Ayla were played for laughs, but Ikilles' dealings with Charisma (I'm not even trying to get the spelling right) were, and that's OK by me. Rape ISN'T funny, but you can't expect a space pirate to capture Ayla Ranzz and not have him think about ravishing her. THAT would stretch believability too far. I didn't see Ayla as weak at all. She was unconscious. As soon as she was freed, she spaced the entire pirate crew. Bad ass if you ask me. I won't defend every single portrayal of Shooter's sex and gender roles, but I thought this was OK. I do look forward someday to a (male) space pirate threatening to rape Sun Boy. Furthermore, We got more kick-ass Salu, which is always a good thing. She did as much or than anyone to save the Rimbor team. On a more cautionary note -- it's fun that Shooter has shown the unlimited potential of the flight rings. It worked in all aspects of this story, showing the Legionnaires using their will power to prevail. However, like the transporter in Star Trek, the rings have the potential to be both a too-frequent deus ex machina for future tight spots, or even worse, we will all now notice every instance when the Legionnaires DON'T use their uber-powerful rings to dispatch a threat.

That's a good question, SB. I probably would have disliked it less (or at the very least, thought is wasn't so much of a waste of my money).

Interestingly, when I went to my local CBS, they had one copy of that version and it was marked up to $9 (I think - possibly not that much, but it was definitely more than the cover price).

I'm glad I didn't buy it. I wonder if DC knows they have a stinker when they have to commission multiple covers?

While I never thought much of Invisible Kid (Lyle or Jacques) pre-Superboy's Legion (the first version of Lyle that I liked *as a character,*), I was pretty young when I was introduced to him, and he seemed really wimpy compared to most of the other Legion guys.

These days, he and Karate Kid are two of my favorites *because* they are so 'weak.'

The Legion, whether we like it or not, was created in a day and age where the genders had defined roles. Sun Boy joins the Legion and his power goes from glowing really bright (a power that's considered too limited, but only because he's a guy, it seems) to being a living star. Shadow Lass joins the Legion and she can make it dark, and that's apparently a cool enough super-power, for a girl. Colossal Boy can become larger and stronger. Violet can get smaller and weaker.

Sir Prize and Miss Terious join and he can wave his hands and turn the planet into Krytonite, and she can fall asleep and sometimes have dreams that are prophetic, but she usually gets wrong in the early issues...

The writers over the years have buffed up and made the Legion women less 'hapless,' but, all-too-often, IMO, by making them martial artists. Now Triplicate Girl is no longer three-hostages-for-the-price-of-one girl, but knows 'tri-jutsu,' which may indeed by one of the few martial arts Karate Kid can't master. Now Shadow Lass is a butt-kicker as well, and Phantom Girl has sometimes also been shown as a martial artist, and Violet has turned hardcore, first into a martial artist, and now into a two-gun toting hot-tempered showboat (even Saturn Girl is now packing heat!). But, IMO, that feels like a desperate last-ditch attempt to salvage characters who were, because they were women, were given pretty unspectacular super-powers.

I'm horribly conflicted on the whole issue.

On the one hand, I like seeing the Superboy's Legion version of Shadow Lass who could manipulate darkforce (a la the cartoon Raven), or the transformation of Light Lass back into Lightning Lass, because, IMO, all of the female Legionnaires having 'wimpy' powers compared to the males, is stuff leftover from the less progressive times in which those characters were made.

On the other hand, I want to see the characters shown as strong, competent, etc. with the powers they have, as it would feel 'forced' if, for instance, Saturn Girl gained the power to turn into diamond and turn into a heavy hitter (poke, poke) or Triplicate Girl turned out to be a mutant Carggite, able to pump out hordes of dupes, a la Jamie Madrox.

So I'm kinda stuck. Maybe *some* of the female characters (such as Shadow Lass or Light Lass could get a power-up, or revert to a more dynamic powerset, in Ayla's case), while others could just become really freaking awesome at what they do (Saturn Girl, for instance).

It seems that the 'power-up' option has been avoided, for now, but that leaves the Legion women as follows;
Saturn Girl - now packs a gun
Violet - martial artist *and* packs two guns!
Dream Girl - martial artist
Triplicate Girl - martial artist
Phantom Girl - martial artist?
Light Lass - power-up?
Projectra - possible power-up? Definite stronger personality than the original Jeckie, who was fainting and stuff all the time

That's rather a lot of Legion ladies who have learned kung-fu, compared to the boys. Or, more to the point, *boy.* And Val has a bit of an excuse for learning kung-fu. He's not compensating for a wimpy power, being a kung-fu god *is* his 'power.'

Meanwhile, boy Legionnaires, like Star Boy or Invisible Kid or Brainiac 5 or even Cosmic Boy, Ultra Boy or Lightning Lad, show no signs of having to learn martial arts. Many of them have power-sets potent enough that they don't need to 'compensate' for anything, but others, particularly Lyle and Brainy, are saddled with both non-combative powers *and* an apparent disinterest in learning how to get out of their own way in a fist-fight. (Thom and Jan also seem a bit prone to the 'hang in the air and get shot at' school of fighting, and that tends to end badly for non-bulletproof heroes...)

In a more gender-equalized team, the boys should be training as hard to *not die* as the Legion girls seem to be. Many of the boys seem to be getting a pass. Saturn Girl is so competent and her powers so versatile right now it's freaking creepy (yay Ironbutt!). Lightning Lad is getting bye on lord only knows what. Salu is *hardcore* and Gim is a gentle giant who looks like he's sleepwalking with a goofy grin through much of his day. Triplicate Girl has mastered both martial arts *and* been seen toting guns, while her 1/3rd boyfriend spends his time arguing philosophy and wandering around with his clothes off.

I certainly don't need to see the Legion of Gun-Toting Martial Artists (since this isn't an Image / Wildstorm book), but why then am I seeing the Legion of Super-Powered Guys Who Don't Try Very Hard and the not-quite-so-Super-Powered Gun-Toting Martial Artist Girls Who Love Them?

I love this team, but quite a few of the characters were built in a fairly sexist manner, and the various writers over the past decades have tried to find diverse ways out of those increasingly-anachronistic design parameters, without sacrificing or radically altering the characters.*

*With some exceptions. Mon-El was 'sacrificed' for Andromeda, for instance, and the role traditionally belonging to Superboy was played by Supergirl, more recently. And these sorts of changes seem 'kludgier' than most, and don't seem to last as long as design tweaks like 'let's make Violet hardcore' or 'let's have Dreamy able to precog while awake' or 'let's have Trips / Shady / etc. learn martial arts.'

LOL that might we why they do that..does makes sense.


I was going to go and buy this cover, because I think it is an awesome cover...but not if it's one of those over priced variants.

Not much different. Ikilles still acted like he was a wimp towards his "mate" (for lack of a better term) and that made him less scary and serious as a villian. And I also think making his "mate" a jealous harpy seemed bad characterization as well.

I've read this whole thread and the book, and have been thinking about this a lot. I'm SO glad the art wasn't grittier and more realistic! I was already disturbed enough by the pirate scene with the cartoony art. I'm SO glad Ayla's shirt from Carmine's was so tough! It made me wonder why Ikilles didn't just yank it down or something. Then I thought that maybe the parts that bare her skin are actually clear fabric. Makes sense, huh? The coloring errors in the first Ayla scene really made things more confusing. Also, I felt bad for Sonar. Not only was she being threatened sexually, but her size was being teased. Put me down as one who does not care to read this stuff in Legion books.

More on the rest of the issue lateer...