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Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32162 08/03/08 01:52 PM
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BTW...I personally have never thought of Shrinking Violet and Phantom Girl as characters with weak powers...never. On the contrary...I've always thought them to be among the most powerful Legionaires.

I think Violet's power is way more effective than Colossal Boy's power.


And I've always been of the mind that Phantom Girl is actually one of the most powerful Legionaires...but about the only time I've seen a writer portray her that way was during Roy Thomas' run...

But there's no doubt her power makes her one of the most indestructible Legionaires...and if you take into account that she can also solidify parts of her body inside of someone....that makes her extremely powerful.

She actually hurt the Pre Crisis Superboy with that little trick once...


So thinking about who or what could hurt Superboy Prime in this upcoming Adventure...


Both Violet and Phantom Girl immediately come to mind as two that will have a better chance than most at disabling him. Because they can both attack him from the inside out...and that's pretty much the only vulnerability he will have.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32163 08/03/08 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by Superboy:
BTW...I personally have never thought of Shrinking Violet and Phantom Girl as characters with weak powers...never. On the contrary...I've always thought them to be among the most powerful Legionaires.

I think Violet's power is way more effective than Colossal Boy's power.
I completely agree re: Vi. Shrinking is a woefully underestimated and underutilised power by most writers and therefore most fans too. But used creatively it can be one of the deadliest and most effective of all of them.

I love Gim but growing big and hitting stuff is not nearly as versatile and tactical as what Vi can do.

I'm not a fan of 'Vi with guns' therefore. Or any of the others. And I'm not keen on big power (or martial arts mastery) upgrades either. Not every member of this team can (or should) be a heavy-hitter.

I'm all for the girls being shown to be more than equal to the boys in a fight but I wish it came from a creative use of the powers they do have rather than grafting on any wizz! bang! new ones.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32164 08/03/08 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by Blacula:
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Originally posted by Superboy:
[b] BTW...I personally have never thought of Shrinking Violet and Phantom Girl as characters with weak powers...never. On the contrary...I've always thought them to be among the most powerful Legionaires.

I think Violet's power is way more effective than Colossal Boy's power.
I completely agree re: Vi. Shrinking is a woefully underestimated and underutilised power by most writers and therefore most fans too. But used creatively it can be one of the deadliest and most effective of all of them.

I love Gim but growing big and hitting stuff is not nearly as versatile and tactical as what Vi can do.

I'm not a fan of 'Vi with guns' therefore. Or any of the others. And I'm not keen on big power (or martial arts mastery) upgrades either. Not every member of this team can (or should) be a heavy-hitter.

I'm all for the girls being shown to be more than equal to the boys in a fight but I wish it came from a creative use of the powers they do have rather than grafting on any wizz! bang! new ones. [/b]
I thiunk that the scene of when Violet first entered the command ship shows this. IIRC she didn't use any guns, just her power and her fight training.


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Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32165 08/03/08 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by Quislet, Esq.:
Not much different. Ikilles still acted like he was a wimp towards his "mate" (for lack of a better term) and that made him less scary and serious as a villian.
Hence the name Ikilles, as in Achilles?

And when you consider that the Ikonns were most likely named after Carl Icahn...I think a guy that acts like a bigshot but is really a wimp is a statement by Shooter on what he thinks of Icahn.


This is entire story was almost entirely allegorical to the corporate power struggles at Mavel in the 90's.


Ikonns= Carl Icahn
Peril-Men = Ron Perelman
Planet Velmar = Marvel Comics
Enslaved Velmarians caught in the middle = Creatiive people working at Marvel during this era.
Science Police and captive Legionaires= Shooter's role in all of this.
Invisible Kid = Whoi he wished would have happened.

The desire of the Perelmen to conquer and enslave and the desire of the Ikonn's to conquer the Perelmen and their slaves and rape and pillage the planet Velmar is much like what Shooter feels like Perelman and Icahn did to Marvel.


Check out issue number 43 when Velmar is first introduced...

He says something along the lines of, Velmar a creative Utopia where creatively inclined folks and artisans were more or less free to create to their hearts content for centuries until the arrival of the Peril-Men.


I mean I can understand the criticism if you guys think Shooter is too stuck in the 90's and is writing about backstory Legion fans don't really care about...


But to say this is just simplistic hacking of some primitive out of touch Silver Age writer is way off IMO...there is all sorts of stuff in what Shooter is writing here...multiple levels of stuff. Infusing Greek and Biblical mythology into the names and backstories...tying it into the corporate struggles at Marvel.


You got references to bilblical history, Greek history, modern history...

Everything from Achilles, to Jonah, to David and Goliath, to the Marvel Bankruptcy.


There is all sorts of stuff to be analyzed and all I see anyone noticing is that Shooter showed a character about to get raped....by a pirate.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32166 08/03/08 03:35 PM
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This issue was just "ok" for me. I couldn't get into the story too well, because the art & colors were very distracting.

The colors seemed toned down in the first arc, and it made everything pop. Now, I feel it's alittle to bright.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32167 08/03/08 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by Superboy:

I mean how is a straight white guy going to have much insight into being black, female or gay? He's not. I guess that's why I like Shooter's approach of just treating everyone as equals and letting that be that, in lieu of having inside knowledge.


You can beat Shooter over the head until the cows come home...but he's never going to have much insight into being a female, or a minority, or gay.
Sorry, I agree with alot of what you're saying, but I can't let this one go by. If a writer can't portray characters different than themselves, than they are, at best, a limited writer and in no way deserve the adjective 'good'.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32168 08/03/08 04:03 PM
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Color me unimpressed with this issue. As Homer said "Well, I guess that wraps everything up in a nice neat little package! No, really I mean that; sorry if it sounded sarcastic."
Shooter gives us several issues of drawn out "story" then magically fixes everything. It just felt lazy. Or like there wasn't much forethought going into it. The writing was sloppy and the story unbalanced. How exactly does the Legion severing its ties with the UP absolve them of the crimes they were accused of, like espionage. I get that there was some kind of legal hoo-ha that M'Rissey pulled, but I found it unrealistic that things would move that fast to get the team out of trouble.
And I really, really didn't like the art. And I'm one of Darwyn Cooke's biggest fans. I love his clean line, nostalgic style. Greene's art is simply not an example of this school of comic art. It seemed more informed by a willful ignorance of facial anatomy than a desire to evoke the feel of a bygone era. It reminded me way more of Rob Liefeld and his way of altering anatomy to make it look "cooler" than anything else.
I'm really hoping that DC can get their act together with the Legion. You'd think that with Paul Levitz running the show and Giffen in a position of relative power again, the Legion would rate higher.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32169 08/03/08 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by Superboy:
I mean I can understand the criticism if you guys think Shooter is too stuck in the 90's and is writing about backstory Legion fans don't really care about...
It's not backstory, it's subtext, which is very different.

It's not so much that I don't care about it (though I don't), I'd just rather Shooter sort out his issues with Marvel's business woes somewhere other than the Legion. If this was a Marvel book, it might feel a bit more appropriate, but it's not and I really feel a DC comic is not the place for Shooter to air his dirty Marvel laundry.

As for the Classical and Biblical references, I found them ham-handed and tacked on. Naming one of his characters sort-of after Achilles really didn't add anything to the story, especially since the character really didn't bear any resemblance to any portrayal of Achilles I've ever seen.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32170 08/03/08 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by Quislet, Esq.:
[QUOTE]I thiunk that the scene of when Violet first entered the command ship shows this. IIRC she didn't use any guns, just her power and her fight training.
Or hell, how about when she first showed up in this incarnation doing her best ALIEN impression? wink


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Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32171 08/04/08 01:08 AM
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I mean how is a straight white guy going to have much insight into being black, female or gay? He's not. I guess that's why I like Shooter's approach of just treating everyone as equals and letting that be that, in lieu of having inside knowledge.


You can beat Shooter over the head until the cows come home...but he's never going to have much insight into being a female, or a minority, or gay.
Personally, I've read plenty of books by straight white male authors who can get into the heads of their characters whoever they are. I would say that if Shooter is not doing a good job of this, it's an indication of his weakness as a writer more than anything else. Granted 1,000 years in the future, ethnicity, sexuality and such would/should not be the issues they are today. There are aspects to this version of the Legion I like to a certain extent. However the dialog has been generally uninspired.The colloquialisms sophomoric. The story seems to be going nowhere fast and the recent costume redesigns are definitely no improvement over Kitson's.

As for the veiled reference to the problems at Marvel; I didn't know anything about it when I read the issue, I didn't really care much for the story when I read it. And while I suppose interjecting something like this could be somewhat clever, it comes off a bit cheap and sounds to me like sour grapes. I think Shooter may have a very legitimate gripe (I cant think of a Marvel comic I wanted to read in the 90s except maybe David's Hulk). There is a time and place for everything and I don't think the inclusion of his venting did anything to advance the overall story. I don't necessarily think that sort of thing is impossible to pull off, I am unimpressed by this attempt.

I suppose for all it's failings, I preferred Waid & Kitson's Legion to the current team. And from all the rumors flying around this board, they may not be around for long. I guess we'll see soon enough.


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Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32172 08/04/08 02:22 AM
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Originally posted by Mystery Lad:
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Originally posted by Superboy:
[b]
I mean how is a straight white guy going to have much insight into being black, female or gay? He's not. I guess that's why I like Shooter's approach of just treating everyone as equals and letting that be that, in lieu of having inside knowledge.


You can beat Shooter over the head until the cows come home...but he's never going to have much insight into being a female, or a minority, or gay.
Sorry, I agree with alot of what you're saying, but I can't let this one go by. If a writer can't portray characters different than themselves, than they are, at best, a limited writer and in no way deserve the adjective 'good'. [/b]
I think a writer can be limited and still be a good or even great writer. I don't think any writer is great at every aspect of writing.


Shooter is good at creating characters, and especially villains, and he's good at writing memorable scenes, infusing his characters with real personality quirks, and generally writing science fiction.

In terms of heroes, he's generally good at writing heroic figures and giving insight into them...and that's about as far as he goes with it. I mean to me bashing him for that is just a case of bashing him for what he isn't instead of what he is.

And even if he's not particularly good at those sorts of indepth stories...he is good at giving characters realistic traits and they seem real even if he's not real good at examining them.


He is definitely not a writer produced in the decompression era of storytelling...


I do not think he is particularly good at dialogue, and I don't think he's particularly good at indepth character analysis/development...in fact I look back on his work and it's usually when he attempts that that he winds up with egg on his face.

I don't really want to see Shooter doing those sorts of stories, nor do I think you can do them in a Legion book, and every creator tries it, and everyone hates it. In Shooter's case, the last indepth character examination I remember him doing was the Beyonder in Secret Wars II...that was awful.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32173 08/04/08 02:59 AM
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Originally posted by Uranus Lad:


As for the veiled reference to the problems at Marvel; I didn't know anything about it when I read the issue, I didn't really care much for the story when I read it. And while I suppose interjecting something like this could be somewhat clever, it comes off a bit cheap and sounds to me like sour grapes. I think Shooter may have a very legitimate gripe (I cant think of a Marvel comic I wanted to read in the 90s except maybe David's Hulk). There is a time and place for everything and I don't think the inclusion of his venting did anything to advance the overall story. I don't necessarily think that sort of thing is impossible to pull off, I am unimpressed by this attempt.

I suppose for all it's failings, I preferred Waid & Kitson's Legion to the current team. And from all the rumors flying around this board, they may not be around for long. I guess we'll see soon enough. [/QB]
I'm, not really interested in the Marvel stuff either, especially since I already know it and nothing new was revealed. And I do think it's unprofessional. I feel that's a very valid criticism.

At the same time, it's not like the focal point of the book, or that these characters are intended to be major characters, they weren't even really the focal point of a single issue.

And it is something extra he infused into these characters that were basically minor characters in the grand scheme of things.



Personally, I don't think every story has to be about getting into someone's head, nor do I think a writer has to excel at it to be a great writer. Some do, some don't...and inarguably, there are tons of writers in the industry that aren't good at it, that try and do it all the time.

I'd rather a writer realize his limitations and stay within them then fumble about clumsily trying to write types of stories that aren't his strength, and that he really has no insight into writing.

Shooter's good at creating characters and villains...not necessarily exploring them.


That indepth character analysis is a form of storytelling. It's been prevalent in the medium for a long time now. Every writer tries to do it, and only a few have the talent to actually do it, and it's a big reason for the decompressed stories in comics...and me, I can live without it for a while personally.

I don't think any creative team is going to be universally accepted by Legion Fans...nor do I think any version of the Legion is either.

I don't think that problem is solvable really..so IMO, DC should just go ahead and do the version that will sell the best...and at least that way the endless rebooting will stop. And that's the way to keep the majority of the fans happy. JMO.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32174 08/04/08 08:54 AM
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See, I get that Ayla was unconcious and started kicking butt as soon as she was awake. But I don't think that makes the scene with her at the mercy of the pirates okay. It was a choice on the part of the writer to make her unconcious, she could just have easily been awake.

And the part where the pirate pulls her top down? I really hated that. I never got into the Legion to read about women being sexually assaulted while unconcious. (and pulling down someone's top like that does fall into the realm of sexual assualt)That's a level of realism I think the Legion could do without.

I agree that Shrinking Violet's power is not a weak one! With Colossal Boy's power all you can do is lift big things up and punch stuff. Boring! Vi's power is a million times more versatile. You can use it for espionage, getting into places where no one else can etc. It's a power that a writer can really have fun exploring. A power that lends itself to imaginative uses.

Ditto Light Lass. I've always felt that the Light Lass powers are much superior to the Lightning ones. With lightning all you can do is point and shoot and blow stuff up. With gravity powers you can do all sorts of neat interesting stuff. If I could choose between the two powers I'd go with the Light Lass ones every time. Control of gravity, one of the most fundamental forces of the universe, is far from weak!

If it came over weak in the past you can put it down to bad writing (and perhaps subconcious sexism).


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Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32175 08/04/08 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by Superboy:

There is all sorts of stuff to be analyzed and all I see anyone noticing is that Shooter showed a character about to get raped....by a pirate.[/QB]
Errm..I may be wrong but have you noticed that all the posters who were bothered by this have one thing in common, namely that they are all women?

We have to live with the threat of sexual violence in our everyday lives. Every time we go out we run the risk of it happening to us. Yes it's probably unlikely in most cases but the fact is the risk is there. It's close to home for us.

Maybe the fact that it's female posters who seem to have a problem with it and the male posters seem to think it's okay should tell you something.

And the fact that the rape threats were made to make a point about some power struggle in Marvel Comics from 20 years ago? Makes it even more offensive. Massively so.

Trivialising the very real suffering of very real women (and yes, men too in some cases) so you can stick it to someone you have an old workplace grudge about...it's more than a tad insensitive. I think it could even be what politically correct types might call 'male privilege'.

I get that there's lots of nice allusions to mythology and that's groovy. But I don't run the (admittedly small) risk of being attacked by Greek mythology when I go out on my own.

I'm really not that down on Shooter, as I said I don't have a problem with anything else he's written. But I didn't like that scene. We will probably have to agree to disagree.

I should clarify that I'm not against any portrayal of sexual assault/violence but it has to be handled very, very carefully. Using it as a metaphor for how you were hard done by by some businessman at work? That's not exactly careful.

When you use something in a story that could be triggers for people who have suffered something like it in real life? You really have to be respectful and mindful of that fact. And you have to have a really serious and necessary reason to use it. I don't think sniping at an old enemy in an oblique way really justifies it.

Sorry if I came over a bit blunt there. I'm not attacking you personally, just disagreeing with your argument. (I hope it doesn't come across too aggressive!)


Fire in the disco! Fire in the Taco Bell! Fire in the disco! Fire in the gates of hell!!
Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32176 08/04/08 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by Superboy:
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Originally posted by Quislet, Esq.:
Not much different. Ikilles still acted like he was a wimp towards his "mate" (for lack of a better term) and that made him less scary and serious as a villian.
Hence the name Ikilles, as in Achilles?

And when you consider that the Ikonns were most likely named after Carl Icahn...I think a guy that acts like a bigshot but is really a wimp is a statement by Shooter on what he thinks of Icahn.


This is entire story was almost entirely allegorical to the corporate power struggles at Mavel in the 90's.


Ikonns= Carl Icahn
Peril-Men = Ron Perelman
Planet Velmar = Marvel Comics
Enslaved Velmarians caught in the middle = Creatiive people working at Marvel during this era.
Science Police and captive Legionaires= Shooter's role in all of this.
Invisible Kid = Whoi he wished would have happened.

The desire of the Perelmen to conquer and enslave and the desire of the Ikonn's to conquer the Perelmen and their slaves and rape and pillage the planet Velmar is much like what Shooter feels like Perelman and Icahn did to Marvel.


Check out issue number 43 when Velmar is first introduced...

He says something along the lines of, Velmar a creative Utopia where creatively inclined folks and artisans were more or less free to create to their hearts content for centuries until the arrival of the Peril-Men.


I mean I can understand the criticism if you guys think Shooter is too stuck in the 90's and is writing about backstory Legion fans don't really care about...


But to say this is just simplistic hacking of some primitive out of touch Silver Age writer is way off IMO...there is all sorts of stuff in what Shooter is writing here...multiple levels of stuff. Infusing Greek and Biblical mythology into the names and backstories...tying it into the corporate struggles at Marvel.


You got references to bilblical history, Greek history, modern history...

Everything from Achilles, to Jonah, to David and Goliath, to the Marvel Bankruptcy.


There is all sorts of stuff to be analyzed and all I see anyone noticing is that Shooter showed a character about to get raped....by a pirate.
I get all the allegory. It still didn't make Ikilles any more frightening or believable as a villian.


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Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32177 08/04/08 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by Gaseous Lad:
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Originally posted by Quislet, Esq.:
[b][QUOTE]I thiunk that the scene of when Violet first entered the command ship shows this. IIRC she didn't use any guns, just her power and her fight training.
Or hell, how about when she first showed up in this incarnation doing her best ALIEN impression? wink [/b]
Nah, that was just gross for me. This was much cooler, IMHO. Infiltrate as small, attack, grow, punch full grown, shrink to avoid fire/punch, attack while small.


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Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32178 08/04/08 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by Superboy:
BTW...I personally have never thought of Shrinking Violet and Phantom Girl as characters with weak powers...never. On the contrary...I've always thought them to be among the most powerful Legionaires.
I know the feeling. I always find that less physical powers (Saturn Girl's telepathy, Phantom Girl's intangibility, Projectra's illusions), in the Legion and in other comics, are generally imbalanced, to use a gamer's term. Specifically, they can be too powerful, because it's hard to set clear limits on a power we don't have physical units for. So the Legion's never been weak on the female side.

And I always preferred Ayla as Light Lass. That's my main disappointment with the lovable reboot version; she got those powers only briefly. As Brainiac 5 pointed out in an early threeboot issue, control of (anti)gravity is powerful but easily underestimated.


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Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32179 08/04/08 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by Infectious Drura:
Errm..I may be wrong but have you noticed that all the posters who were bothered by this have one thing in common, namely that they are all women?...Maybe the fact that it's female posters who seem to have a problem with it and the male posters seem to think it's okay should tell you something.
It's not just the women who were bothered by it. This male poster was definitely not okay with the scene. I found it gratuitous and disturbing, too. I didn't say so previously because the point has been made rather eloquently by several other posters.

I get the point about pirates being bad guys, but this is the kind of thing that would have been implied rather than depicted explicitly in an earlier era. Plus, it was almost played for laughs in this issue, which goes so far over the line that it's hard to see from here.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32180 08/04/08 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by Director Lad:
It's not just the women who were bothered by it. This male poster was definitely not okay with the scene. I found it gratuitous and disturbing, too.
Neither gender has a lock on being turned off by meaningless portrayals of sexual assault or rape. It's one thing to think the *scene* is somewhere between 'tacky and unnecessary' and 'disgusting and wrong' and to call the creator names.

As I mentioned upthread, I haven't seen a mention of sexual abuse in a comic book I've been able to stand since Alan Moore's run on Swamp Thing. It's all-too-often portrayed in an exploitive or sensationalistic fashion, or, much, much worse, IMO, as some sort of turning point or 'power-up' for the victim, a la Red Sonja (ooh, I got raped, and I got super-powers!) or I Spit On Your Grave which is about sixty-four different flavors of offensive, in my eyes.

And then there's the Alien/Aliens movies, which are an extended rape metaphor, and yet somehow fail to trigger my outrage-meter. Is that hypocritical of me? Eh. I'm not losing sleep, if so. If the presentation is engaging enough, I guess I'm willing to hand out a pass.


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Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32181 08/04/08 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by Infectious Drura:
Errm..I may be wrong but have you noticed that all the posters who were bothered by this have one thing in common, namely that they are all women?
Well like some of the guys just pointed out, they aren't all women that are offended.

As well...there was at least one woman who had a really strong opposing opinion.


Quote

We have to live with the threat of sexual violence in our everyday lives. Every time we go out we run the risk of it happening to us. Yes it's probably unlikely in most cases but the fact is the risk is there. It's close to home for us.
Ya'll aren't Superheroes who fly to planets with pirates on them to fight them and apprehend them...Light Lass OTOH, is.

Every day she faces death...in fact she seeks those situations out.


Just like female cops who deliberately put themselves in danger of being raped to apprehend rapists.


Seeing as how, everyone was going to get raped, including TimberWolf..exactly how sensitive of a portrayal of Light Lass' ordeal would you like to see?

Do all the characters get one? Or just Light Lass?

And if just her...


How does she come as a stronger character because of that?


Isn't that exactly the type of victim portrayal that is so offensive?


Because to me it looked like the near rape didn't faze her and she quickly sent the pirates into the upper stratosphere after being freed.

Ya'll may be offended that it wasn't more dramatic...but ya'll aren't Superheroes.


I see that as actually being strong...as superheroic.

IF she's is going to undergo trauma every time she is nearly raped or killed...

Then she needs to quit the Legion of Superheroes...because she's not cut out for facing danger. IT'll happen to her every day, and if she can't handle it she is a liability to her teamates. And the noble thing for her to do would be quit the team and not put the lives of her teamates at risk.


As for the other points...


I think emotionally traumatized folks, that are still locked into their trumatic memories and still carrying those scars, should be very wary of Suphero comics...

That's just my opinion, but all Superhero Comics do is depict violence. That is their entire purpose..to depict violence. That is the very nature of the genre...conflict and violence. All kinds of violence, all kinds of conflixt...including rape and murder. It gives the heroes something to do.


And I may not be a woman...I am a man, like Shooter, and I know that Shooter wasn't intending to portray women as weak, or endorsing rape, or attempting to piss of a lot of Legion fans.


Anyway...there is no changing what offends someone, but see I think Shooter is just the opposite as people characterize him...


I think Shooter actually deserves credit for being one of the first creators to make powerful female characters...not to mention try and bring in minority characters, and tackle other issues, and I will continue to defend him from what what I consider gross 180 wrong mischaracterizations, that have little or no basis in fact and nearly all basis in misintrepretation and speculation....

Gross mischaracterizations...and I am pretty familiar with his body of work, as a writer and an EIC.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32182 08/05/08 01:06 AM
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I was checking out some hunches and I think...

Louise Simonson
Ann Nocenti
Jo Duffy
Bobbi Chase..

These were the first female editors in Marvel history and among their first female writers, they were definitely the first female creators to get high profile writng assighments...all of them were hired by Jim Shooter as Editors and given those assignments when he was EIC.

And he didn't just throw the girls a politically corect table scrap either...


There was no pressure on him to do that. Just like there no pressure on him to do all the other things he did in this industry.

They got assignments like the X-Men, the Fanstastic Four, the Hulk and Spiderman...not just as Editors, but in some cases writers as well.


Shooter might be dinosaur...but he was a dinosaur that blazed a hell of a lot of trails in this industry...on virtually every social issue it is possible to blaze a trail on.

His first story introduced DC's first minority supehero. He wanted to do more.
First gay character was under his EICship.
First creators rights and royalties were under his EICship.
First Women editors and high profile writing assignments for women at Marvel were under his EICship.
And he created some powerful female Legion characters. And he characterized some of the less powerful ones as being extremely Legion worthy, in an era when the only major female Superheoes were WW, Supergirl and the Invisible Girl.

And his girls sold better than any of those did.

DC still can't match his track record in hiring women editors and creators...and that was 30 years ago, and DC had a female publisher nearly all of that time.

I can't believe the labels people stick on this guy when he is arguably the most progressive trailblazer in comics history, in every area.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32183 08/05/08 02:04 AM
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re: superboy: i think you're tending to give him credit on certain shaky ground things. i want to again point out that he mandated that there were no gays in marvel. that sort of counteracts your "fist gay characters under his EIC", that character wasn't allowed to COME OUT because of him, man smirk!

I also don't buy the "first minority" character, assuming you're referring to Ferro, because again, there's no proof of that. A lot of his progessive claims tend to happen after the fact and never happen in the actual publication so I don't buy it! maybe if they were in something like an encyclopedia or an official sort of DC related publication? like a who's who?

Ahhh, as for Louise Simonson, I distinctly recall her citing a different editor, perhaps one of the Asst editors, as hiring her on when she and her husband did a talk at Oberlin (Walter Simonson's brother is a prof at Oberlin so we were super lucky to score a really amazing talk! they were SO COOL and SO encouraging to me). so, not sure about that....

i also want to say that EVEN IF I AGREED that he was progressive in those areas, which I don't, again, i don't think that means anything considering what we're all discussing on this thread. if everyone gets mad at me for bringing up his past in describing his current work, then you can't use his past to defend his work either.

either way, i still say that just because thing X is written well, that doesn't give thing Y credit. you don't get "good by association" credit! again, I think we can all find something good in the text, even me, but a lot of people obviously have a problem with certain scenes and certain depictions.

i think a lot of people have problems taking criticism concerning certain writers or creators because they associate them with some nostalgic thing, or because they did something else that made them happy. i get upset too when someone points out something weird in something that i like that i didn't notice before. it's like reality shatters and all i can focus on is that one thing. Like I'll like a picture and someone'll say "man, that guy's hand is wrong" and then after that that's all i can see and it drives me crazy like "WHY WOULD THEY DRAW THE HAND THAT WAY, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PERFECT IF ONLY FOR THAT". and then sometimes you get mad at the person that pointed it out.

case in point, Gone with the Wind, and American classic film, right? but the movie has problems with racism that complicates discourse with the film. how do you talk about a movie like that? how should you feel about a movie like that? maybe a better and even stronger example is the film Birth of a Nation.

for some people, the racism problems in these movies disables any possible appreciation for them, because it overshadows any merit (ie: "how can this be a good film if its intentions are bad, etc"). for other people, the racism is something they can separate from it and go "the racism is bad but X, Y, and Z are good".

for me, when a book has a scene like this it's kind of like when my apple falls on the floor. I'm like "UGH i don't want it now! this apple is horrible!" but some people are like "ah, it's fine".

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32184 08/05/08 03:49 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by veryvery:
[QB] re: superboy: i think you're tending to give him credit on certain shaky ground things. i want to again point out that he mandated that there were no gays in marvel. that sort of counteracts your "fist gay characters under his EIC", that character wasn't allowed to COME OUT because of him, man smirk!
That character wasn't allowed to come out because the comic code authority prohibited it.

And it wasn't a mandate...it was an answer to a question.


An answer to a question that he had to give on behalf of Marvel Comics. His mistake was answering the question honestly..

He should have ducked it like every EIC before or since has.


Just for the sake of argument...let's say Marvel had no problems with gay Superheroes and it was all Shooter...

Then why didn't Shooter get fired for those comments?

Quote

I also don't buy the "first minority" character, assuming you're referring to Ferro, because again, there's no proof of that.
Karate Kid was the first minority Superhero in DC comics history.

He was half Asian...and that was as far as he could get, and they wouldn't depict Karate Kid as being Asian, and they wouldn't let him have an Asian name..the most he could get was that his Dad was Japanese in his origin story and he was raised by another Japanese....and that he was Japanese and not Chinese(as a Karate Kid should be) was due to the fact that the Japanese were still stigmatized in America after WWII. 14 year old kid doing this stuff.


This is all happening in the 60's...not after the fact.




There were no white martial artists when Shooter created Karate Kid...Martial arts hadn't caught on yet and the character predated that craze.

IF you were a martial arts fan in 1966, you were a fan of an Asian fighting style used by Asians. No two ways about it.


The inspiration for that character was Bruce Lee's Kato...

A point hammered him when Shooter took the book over in the 70's and finally got him an Asian appearance...in his first issue back as writer.


Again...do you think DC didn't care one way or the other? If so then where were the minority superheroes prior to that?

And he tried to drug addiction before anyone else did with TimberWolf in the Legion, and the code would not allow it and so the story wound up screwed up and subject didn't get touched again until Stan Lee did it without code approval years later. But you can see the story there in the old Legion stories of what Shooter was trying too...15-16 year old kid.

Quote

A lot of his progessive claims tend to happen after the fact and never happen in the actual publication so I don't buy it! maybe if they were in something like an encyclopedia or an official sort of DC related publication? like a who's who?
Karate Kid being half asian wasn't after the fact...it was in his origin. And it may not seem like much by todays standards...but it was a first in DC Superhero history.

So why would he be lying about Ferro Lad?

He put a mask on Ferro Lad for a reason...when Todd McFarlane did it 30 years later some people thought it brilliant...Shooter thought of it as a 14 year old kid.

Quote

Ahhh, as for Louise Simonson, I distinctly recall her citing a different editor, perhaps one of the Asst editors, as hiring her on when she and her husband did a talk at Oberlin (Walter Simonson's brother is a prof at Oberlin so we were super lucky to score a really amazing talk! they were SO COOL and SO encouraging to me). so, not sure about that....
No editor hired her as Editor and put her as Editor on the X-Men...that was Shooter that did that, he was who hired the Editors.

He hired all of them as Editors...and he was a power tripping EIC...no one was going to be writing the X-men without his approval...even Claremont and Byrne could barely write what they wanted.


Quote

i also want to say that EVEN IF I AGREED that he was progressive in those areas, which I don't, again, i don't think that means anything considering what we're all discussing on this thread. if everyone gets mad at me for bringing up his past in describing his current work, then you can't use his past to defend his work either.

either way, i still say that just because thing X is written well, that doesn't give thing Y credit. you don't get "good by association" credit! again, I think we can all find something good in the text, even me, but a lot of people obviously have a problem with certain scenes and certain depictions.
It's really not a problem if you don't like his writing...there is nothing I can do to change that, nor am I trying...

But you are off on what kind of person he is and what his views are...and he's got the track record to prove it...he's got a track record that no Legion creator can match.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32185 08/05/08 04:13 AM
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Here's another one...James Owsley AKA Christopher Priest...

First African American to ever Edit a comic book in North America. Ever...in history. Any Comic Book...anywhere on this continent.

Hired by Jim Shooter as Editor of Spiderman in 1984.


Is he making that up after the fact?

Just like he put Simonson on X-Men in 1980.


Bash his writing all you want...but you are making really bad judgement on the man himself. He was way ahead of everyone else. Way ahead. Like..lapped everyone else. Including the closeminded corporate mindset...I guarantee you Marvel didn't want a gay supehero in the late 70's, and they still got one...anymore than DC wanted a minority one in the mid 60's, and they got one too.

And I've never read it confirmed but I am pretty sure Shadowlass was another way he circumvented DC's policies to get the equivalent of a minority character in the Legion...Shadow isn't blue...it is black.

Re: LSH 44 spoilers
#32186 08/06/08 06:49 PM
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I agree with Nightcrawler's assessment of this issue. It was fine -- maybe not Shooter's best issue, but not radically below the quality of his other issues. I don't see what everyone is complaining about.

I do understand people's objections to the attempted rape business, but I think it was clear that (A) the pirates were going to rape the men too, and (B) Ikilles didn't succeed in getting Ayla's shirt off. I don't think Shooter is guilty of misogyny, at least not in this case.


Aaron Kashtan/Sir Tim Drake
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