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Legion Trivia 6
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Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765587 03/12/13 01:38 PM
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Well, I'd trust most of the fanfic writers here over just about anybody DC is likely to put on the title.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Eryk Davis Ester #765589 03/12/13 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Eryk Davis Ester
Well, I'd trust most of the fanfic writers here over just about anybody DC is likely to put on the title.


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Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765591 03/12/13 01:45 PM
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nod

I'd take single issue stories by rotating writers (including LW fanfic writers) and 1-2 strong artists over anything we've had in the last 10 years.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Invisible Brainiac #765592 03/12/13 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
Perhaps they should just let a fan (or fans) write the Legion. Desaad's points about wide-screen action coupled with long-term plotting make sense, and so we need a skilled,experienced writer with love for the title AND GIVEN FREE REIGN BY EDITORIAL.


I'm not convinced that being a fan is necessary, or even preferable; I think that's sort of the trouble that Levitz is in. He's writing with too much history at his back, he can't shake it. I think a lot of fans would do the same.

I think we need a writer first, a fan second, maybe not at all. Someone who won't let their love of any past Legion story keep them from telling completely NEW Legion stories. Better writers know how to balance this - Grant Morrison, for instance - but too many writers in this field do not, to the detriment.

Fundamentally; we need someone who is excited about what they can DO with the Legion, the potential it represents, rather than anything that has come before.

And that's sort of the whole philosophy of the Legion, if you think about it; they appreciate what came before (Superman, the superheroes of earth), but they believe deeply that they can do better, and work tirelessly to prove it.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765593 03/12/13 01:48 PM
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Same thing DC does on all of their other books that isn't Batman related. Put Geoff Johns and a star artist on it. Look at Aquaman.

I am being serious. Put Geoff on Blue Devil with a popular artist...it will be in the top 20.

Trust me I'm a huge Levitz fan. So maybe have Jim Lee on with with Levitz.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765595 03/12/13 01:50 PM
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Geoff Johns is just the wrong choice for the Legion, and there is no getting around that.

I'd rather the Legion die than be kept 'alive' by a writer who either doesn't understand or doesn't agree with the whole point of the franchise.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765596 03/12/13 01:55 PM
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And to be clear, I have no problem with Geoff Johns. That's a man who is incredibly enthusiastic about the work he's doing, he loves comics more than anyone I've ever met, he tries diligently to get other people to love them, and it often works. He's written some great stories of the years, and I envy the man's skill, ability and enthusiasm.

But that he's good at superhero comic books doesn't mean that he'll be good at the Legion, because the Legion is something at the very fringe of that genre, IMHO.

Writers I want to see take this book on are:

Grant Morrison (never happen)
Brandon Graham (only slightly more likely)
John Hickman (only slightly more likely, and he's already writing them over at Marvel)
Matt Kindt (most likely, and I think it would be pretty great)


I'm still waiting to see how Ales Kot performs on "Suicide Squad", but he's another guy who at least deals with the right THEMES, and whose work tends to be well considered. But so far he has yet to turn in anything that could be called 'coherent', at least that has been published, so we'll have to wait and see (that could be a stylistic choice for his creator owned stuff). He also has a tendency to get pretentious in a very "undergrad NYU student" way, you know "I don't take the photos, the photos...take me" sort of thing. But still, I'd be interested to see him get a shot.

I do think up and coming is the way to go for the Legion, the younger the better.

Hey, I'm 26...:)

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765598 03/12/13 02:01 PM
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Some other (writer) names I'd like in a sort of 'what if' scenario....

Keith Giffen (again!...one of the few older voices I think could do it)
Kieron Gillen
Nick Spencer (if he could compress his work a little, as he did on the Jimmy Olsen backups)
Warren Ellis (again, one of the few older voices that I'd entertain on this book -- his work on Freakangels wasn't at all like the Legion, but it touched on themes that I think would be important for a good Legion run).

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765600 03/12/13 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Desaad
I'm going to take that 'artist' to be Keith Giffen, and that's god damn heartbreaking.

But I'm betting it's Levitz having a specific vision for what he wants to do with his Legion, more than anything. I can't imagine that anyone has any right to tell him what he can or cannot do on that book, editorially, given his previous status within the company, and the almost assured severance he got in terms of creative freedom for moving out of the Presidential role without any fuss.


*shifty eyes* I saw that comment on Facebook and it isn't Giffen. Sounds like something he would say, but isn't. I wouldn't be surprised if he feels the same and simply isn't saying so.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765601 03/12/13 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Desaad


I think the elements of a perfect Legion book have been scattered around various attempts throughout the years. The closest, as I see it, was Giffen's 5 Years Later run, but that was perhaps too adult, too impenetrable, too ambitious, and ultimately Giffen and the Bierbaums weren't doing very 'stable' work (moments of complete brilliance, but punctuated by stretches of mediocrity when Giffen wasn't directly involved in either the plotting/dialogue/artwork).

What made Levitz’s contribution so exceptional is that he was planning stories out not just 12 issues, but YEARS in advance, we’ve plots and subplots over the better part of a decade, it seemed. The meticulous detail with which he catalogued his work, mapped his progression, meant that he could rotate the spotlight to various characters, giving each of them their due. And this long term planning allowed everything that happened to feel organic. Characters and character relationships developed over years, with a realistic, measured rhythm. Events never felt like they were done for shock value, or to see what worked, but had been built to over the course of months at minimum. There was a natural, gradual escalation of threat.

No, this isn’t the only thing that made Levitz’s Legion such a success, but it’s the one thing that his Legion had that all others have lacked. His Legion was partially successful because it had a healthy dose of soap opera, which he did quite well. But other Legions have had the same soap opera – most notably the archie legion under Peyer, Waid, etc – and didn’t fare nearly as well, either in the open market or the critical theatre.

Giffen brought with him a genius concept engine, with some extremely forward thinking ideas. It’s clear, especially from their separately done work, that he was the Big Concept guy, more in line with Grant Morrison and Warren Ellis than the traditional superhero writers of the day. His characters were complex, subtle, and often deeply tragic.

DnA’s Legion took a page from revamps like Grant Morrison’s JLA and Ellis’ Authority/Stormwatch and brought widescreen action to the book. That is certainly an element that had been there, in bits, with epics such as Great Darkness Saga and the Time Trapper throwdown, but it wasn’t nearly as emphasized until DnA came on. But their run lacked, crucially, the long term planning I mentioned earlier. That’s why something like “Legion Lost” and “Legion Worlds” holds up so well, while the Legion title itself became progressively more haphazard, began to rely on shock value and ultimately their removal was not only warranted, but overdue.


Waid’s second turn at the title attempted to blend two of the attributes I mentioned above – soap opera and big concept generation – but failed to do the first interestingly or convincingly, and failed to create any interesting, compelling antagonists for the team. Additionally, the lack of a long term blueprint was fairly obvious (and disappointing). Potential, sure, but squandered.

One thing that I thought Waid did well was that he attempted to make the characters feel…alien, or at least profoundly DIFFERENT, both from each other and from what we have come to consider ‘normal’. While previous iterations of the Legion had a few token ‘alien’ like characters, most of the main cast acted exactly as one might expect a JLA member to act. Under Waid’s pen, the character of Chameleon, for instance, was odd while still relatable. Leviathon was in fact a giant who could shrink. Titans could no longer speak with vocal chords.

Any future attempt at the title has to attempt to reconcile and merge all these positive aspects, but most crucial is that there most be some long term, multi year plan in place. Legion is a title that not only allows such a plan thanks to the insular nature of its continuity, but it demands it thanks to the sprawling size of its cast. Likewise crucial are the big concepts, the soap opera, and the wide screen action. All of these can be blended into what I think would be the perfect Legion of Superheroes comic book.


This is an incredible analysis, Desaad. I think you've articulated exactly what worked and didn't work in each version of the Legion over the last 30 years.

I think we should not overlook the 25 or so years before Levitz and Giffin, though. The Silver Age and '70s work, in particular, laid the foundation upon which Levitz and Giffen built so brilliantly. In another thread, the essence of the Legion is being discussed. I think much of that essence is found in the work of Weisinger, Binder, Plastino, Siegel, Shooter, Swan, Cockrum, Bates, Grell, and others.

And yet, as was also pointed out in another thread (by you, IIRC), the Legion needs to move forward, not backward. It needs to tell new stories, not homages to old ones or be shackled to past continuity . . . all of which, combined with the scattered elements you identified above, make the Legion, as you said "troublesome."

Yet I don't think the trouble really lies in the Legion itself, but in comics, or the comics industry, and the expectations thereof today. When I get back to your questions at the start of this thread, what would make the Legion work for me today, I can't find a single thing. This is because I've largely moved on from comics. I find them unsatisfying in the current DC/Marvel pamphlet format of $3-4 a pop, ongoing (re: endless) stories, and simplistic themes that are meant to appeal to everyone from age 12 up. I don't think it's possible to write a story which satisfies such a broad audience; yet comics (and mainstream entertainment in general) demands that any work worth investing time, talent, and money in reaches such a broad audience.

I like EDE's idea in the other thread that the Legion needs to go forward and perhaps focus on the next generation of heroes. So long as stories continue to focus on the same characters whom we love so much (and who, therefore, are untouchable in any real sense--even death holds no grip on them), the Legion is doomed to the same endless cycle of retold stories, reboots, and cancellations, because that's what the mindset of both the company and the fans demands.


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Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765606 03/12/13 03:18 PM
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Thank you, sir.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765612 03/12/13 04:16 PM
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The best we can hope for is probably to get someone like Geoff Johns on the book again.

The worst we can hope for is another reboot, and/or another 5YL full of retcons. Which is what I suspect we might get. There's *so* many ways to screw up the Legion, and after a cancellation or near-cancellation, they're going to loom large.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Cobalt Kid #765616 03/12/13 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
Regarding the preboot / postboot / etc: for years and years and years, all I wanted was for the "original" Legion to return. Even during the postboot, which I absolutely loved, I always in the back of my mind wanted to see the original "preboot" Legion again. During the threeboot, I craved it more than ever.

And then they came back...kind of. And I learned that "kind of" will always be the case. I also learned you can never go home again, an obvious lesson I should have seen coming. Since their return in Action Comics this "original" or "quasi-original" or whatever you want to call it Legion does not feel like the original Legion. And nothing ever will.

I'm afraid that will be the same if the postboot Legion ever came back.

Oh, I know (Frankly, I wouldn't trust the current state of affairs at DC anyway). It's a "be careful what you wish for", but I can't help wishing...

Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
Originally Posted by Eryk Davis Ester
Well, I'd trust most of the fanfic writers here over just about anybody DC is likely to put on the title.
nod

I'd take single issue stories by rotating writers (including LW fanfic writers) and 1-2 strong artists over anything we've had in the last 10 years.

Depends - the individual stories might well be better, but a long run of fill-in writers will cancel more or less any series, pretty much regardless of quality.


My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Cobalt, Reboot & iB present 21st Century Legion: Earth War .
Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Reboot #765623 03/12/13 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Reboot
Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
Regarding the preboot / postboot / etc: for years and years and years, all I wanted was for the "original" Legion to return. Even during the postboot, which I absolutely loved, I always in the back of my mind wanted to see the original "preboot" Legion again. During the threeboot, I craved it more than ever.

And then they came back...kind of. And I learned that "kind of" will always be the case. I also learned you can never go home again, an obvious lesson I should have seen coming. Since their return in Action Comics this "original" or "quasi-original" or whatever you want to call it Legion does not feel like the original Legion. And nothing ever will.

I'm afraid that will be the same if the postboot Legion ever came back.

Oh, I know (Frankly, I wouldn't trust the current state of affairs at DC anyway). It's a "be careful what you wish for", but I can't help wishing...



It's the return of the reboot Legion! Except XS never existed, Brainiac Five now has Batman's personality, and the Legion has bizarrely adopted the threeboot "Eat it, Grandpa!" as a motto! And did I mention they're meeting the Fatal Five for the first time? wink

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765624 03/12/13 07:03 PM
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I am reminded of that story where the guy's head is reduced to purple jam by a falling bulkhead, and then his decapitated body is eaten by cannibals, and everyone is like, "Oh, how can we save him?" and "No, no, I'm sure he's still alive."

The Legion is like that.


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Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Eryk Davis Ester #765627 03/12/13 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Eryk Davis Ester
Originally Posted by Reboot
Oh, I know (Frankly, I wouldn't trust the current state of affairs at DC anyway). It's a "be careful what you wish for", but I can't help wishing...

It's the return of the reboot Legion! Except XS never existed, Brainiac Five now has Batman's personality, and the Legion has bizarrely adopted the threeboot "Eat it, Grandpa!" as a motto! And did I mention they're meeting the Fatal Five for the first time? wink

If that's the sort of thing they've been pulling with the current team, even before the "Fatal Five again for the first time" bit, why is anyone accepting the retroboot or 52boot teams as "the original Legion"?


My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Cobalt, Reboot & iB present 21st Century Legion: Earth War .
Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Reboot #765631 03/12/13 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Reboot
Originally Posted by Eryk Davis Ester
Originally Posted by Reboot
Oh, I know (Frankly, I wouldn't trust the current state of affairs at DC anyway). It's a "be careful what you wish for", but I can't help wishing...

It's the return of the reboot Legion! Except XS never existed, Brainiac Five now has Batman's personality, and the Legion has bizarrely adopted the threeboot "Eat it, Grandpa!" as a motto! And did I mention they're meeting the Fatal Five for the first time? wink

If that's the sort of thing they've been pulling with the current team, even before the "Fatal Five again for the first time" bit, why is anyone accepting the retroboot or 52boot teams as "the original Legion"?


I've always been a little confused about why every Legion author has such a rough time creating new villains. I know, I know, most comics tend to revolve around the same dozen villains...but surely the 31st century is just chock FULL of people wanting to do bad things. Right? And not lame new villains either.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765632 03/12/13 07:28 PM
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It's not going to happen, but I'd like to see the Legion made open-source, or whatever you call it for characters. Just throw it wide open for anyone to use, write about, make movies, whatever, like we have for Sherlock Holmes. The cream would rise to the top, and there might be a Legion for everyone.

Unfortunately, the Legion doesn't have the widespread popularity of a Sherlock Holmes, so it might just sink into oblivion.


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Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Reboot #765634 03/12/13 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Reboot
Originally Posted by Eryk Davis Ester
Originally Posted by Reboot
Oh, I know (Frankly, I wouldn't trust the current state of affairs at DC anyway). It's a "be careful what you wish for", but I can't help wishing...

It's the return of the reboot Legion! Except XS never existed, Brainiac Five now has Batman's personality, and the Legion has bizarrely adopted the threeboot "Eat it, Grandpa!" as a motto! And did I mention they're meeting the Fatal Five for the first time? wink

If that's the sort of thing they've been pulling with the current team, even before the "Fatal Five again for the first time" bit, why is anyone accepting the retroboot or 52boot teams as "the original Legion"?


They haven't quite deleted a character as central as XS (except maybe Supergirl, whose status is at best ambiguous), but the others are pretty close to stuff that's been done.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Fat Cramer #765637 03/12/13 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Fat Cramer
It's not going to happen, but I'd like to see the Legion made open-source, or whatever you call it for characters. Just throw it wide open for anyone to use, write about, make movies, whatever, like we have for Sherlock Holmes. The cream would rise to the top, and there might be a Legion for everyone.

Unfortunately, the Legion doesn't have the widespread popularity of a Sherlock Holmes, so it might just sink into oblivion.


The thing about Sherlock Holmes is that there's a clear canon, namely the original Conan Doyle stories, such that, however radically new interpretations deviate from the source material, there's always the gravity of those original tales pulling one back towards them.

It's an interesting question what would serve the same kind of role for the Legion. The Adventure era perhaps?

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765638 03/12/13 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Desaad
Geoff Johns is just the wrong choice for the Legion, and there is no getting around that.

I'd rather the Legion die than be kept 'alive' by a writer who either doesn't understand or doesn't agree with the whole point of the franchise.


I agree with a lot of your points but not this one.

I don't really get where it's coming from either. I thought the 'Superman and the Legion' arc in Action Comics was excellent and demonstrated exactly the sort of art and storytelling that this book needs - big-scale stories with plenty of smaller character-focused moments interspersed throughout; bold, new ideas for the universe while paying respect to and utilizing the characters and continuity of the past (I mean, who ever thought Tusker, Eyeful Ethel or Rainbow Girl would ever seem so cool or interesting?); the sense of the Legion struggling and ultimately succeeding as a team and friends against such a challenging threat; a big name artist who gave us (IMO) an excellent and exciting new vision of the team and their costumes.

If the main Legion book had carried on with that creative team, trust me - we would not be having this conversation today.

I think the problems with the current Legion all boil down to one man - Paul Levitz. For whatever reason, his writing and plots for the entirety of his run on the Retroboot (or at least what I've read of it) have been crushingly boring and nonsensical - the fall of Titan; Earth Man's ridiculous membership; Harmonia Li; that stupid, blue baby villain; the dumb, Durlan assassins; the worst Legion stories I've ever read in that Adventure-era run in Adventure Comics... with the small exception of maybe his Legion Academy arc (and even that had an extremely disappointing conclusion), I would not be interested in re-reading a single part of this era of the Legon ever again.

Whereas I know 'Superman and the Legion' and Legion of Three Worlds will be tales I return to again and again. And I say all that as someone who is a long way from a fan of Geoff Johns' work of the last 5 years or so.

---

I'm so thoroughly disinterested in the DCnU though that I don't think there's a thing they could do with the Legion that would get me to pick up the book again... unless it was a return to a self-contained version of the Reboot universe with a living Leviathan. THAT I would definitely return to DC for.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765643 03/12/13 08:49 PM
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I'm with you Blacs... I think not only would Johns' selling power be welcome, but he would actually write some good stories. Even with its flaws, the ACTION arc was a wild, fun LEGION-ey ride.

Oh well, it's all moot really... Johns was THISCLOSE to writing the LSH regularly, but then the overhaul came and they gave it to Levitz. I don't think it will come up on the table again...


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Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765647 03/12/13 10:23 PM
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I think that to get decent Legion we need
1) A writer who understands the Legion
2) A writer who is willing to write the Legion as is even if some elements of it don't align with his preferences
3) No editorial interference
*and* good writing.

Getting all of these is rare.

Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765648 03/12/13 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Desaad

I'm not convinced that being a fan is necessary, or even preferable; I think that's sort of the trouble that Levitz is in. He's writing with too much history at his back, he can't shake it. I think a lot of fans would do the same.


I agree, we can't afford to look back at the past because the audience's expectations were different in the past. US American society has changed drastically since the Legion of Super-Heroes began in the 1950s. For example, in the 1950s China was isolationist and considered an enemy of the United States; last year I studied a semester in China. We have to write stories that reflect the hopes and fears of 2013 so the audience can relate to them.


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Re: What can be done to save the Legion?
Desaad #765649 03/13/13 12:19 AM
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One thing that would help is for DC to do something to make it easier for people learn about the Legion. The book is so intimidating and something like Legion of 3 Worlds only confirms the fears of people who think the Legion is too big, by making most of the Legion members just a bunch of faces and costumes with unspecified powers. Right now, a person who wants to understand the book pretty mcuh has to go to some wiki and having to read about the three prior incarnations of the character. In the pre-internet days, every few years, there would be an issue that would have a spread that summarized the characters and their origins. There also were inexpensive reprints/digests so readers could learn about the characters without doing research. One of the most successful things the writers did was the three-part Secrets of the LoSH in 1981, which gave all of the characters' origins but in the context of a story with a twist that had pretty significant repercussions for the Legion. I don't think it is coincidence that a book like that coincided with one of the periods of the when the Legion's greatest popularity. That series was a great jumping-off point for new readers.

Actually, thinking about it, wouldn't it be smart for DC to put that miniseries on digital for free download or make it free to anyone who buys a new issue of LoSH? It won't bring readers completely up to date and it won't help that the costumes are different, but it might open the door for some new readers who are nervous about trying to jump into such a big cast.

Oh, and on the costume thing. . . . I think a huge blunder was the retroboot Legion getting new costumes. The Lightning Saga used costumes that people identified with the characters. This is the Legion with a lot of history and some very iconic characters/costumes. Junking those costumes right away took away from that. I would actually love for the book to come up with some device that forces them into some classic looks. One thought I just had is how they could have a plot send the characters back in time to the Shooter era (maybe the team's current minds are forced to inhabit their older bodies) and they have to relive or change history. There could be some play on the continuity, with some nod to history by using variations on past stories, but there also could be things the new Legion does due to their knowledge that prevents the past from occurring the way it did. How would the Legion and the universe be different if the Great Darkness never happened or Karate Kid never died. And just imagine the fun they could have with characters like Rokk, Imra, Tasmia, Gim and Jeckie having to wear those old costumes after 20-30 years.

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