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Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
#786549 09/05/13 09:34 PM
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I was just rereading Legion of Three Worlds and was reminded of the promise that limited series held. Geoff Johns really captured the spirit of the Legion and created a thrilling immediacy with his characterization, plot and dialog. He seemed to get the Legion and created some beautiful moments that showed Legion members at their best. Highlights for me included the rescue of the White Witch, Mon-el and Shadow Lass's recruitment of the Daxamite Green Latern, the return of Bouncing Boy and Duo Damsel and Lightning Lass's reaction to their return, Throw away lines like "Dial up the voltage, Sis" and "Is that Ferro Lad?", and Polar Boy's heroism. It seemed that the original, classic Legion was back in a big way. There was a positive energy to the Legion. And then..... Paul Levitz seemed to have disdain for the Legion and the monthly comic felt joyless and flat. Long time characters were killed off or retired and lame new replacements took center stage. Worse, the stories themselves went nowhere and there was no forward thrust to the Legion. The art too was inconsistent and the colorist regularly messed up long time characters' looks. Please excuse the rant, but it just seems sad that the incredible momentum started by Johns was wasted by the self indulgence of Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen.

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786550 09/05/13 10:05 PM
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I do feel that Johns' push to give the Legion a new purpose was needed. That theme could have easily propelled plots for years. Yes, it is not a utopian view but it makes sense if you are of the opinion that a perfect world would not need heroes. Johns also showed his usual knack for taking characters people may have forgotten about and updating them to be formidable in battle.


Go with the good and you'll be like them; go with the evil and you'll be worse than them.- Portuguese Proverb
Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786551 09/05/13 10:33 PM
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I enjoyed Johns' work on the Legion and would have liked to see him expand on some of those plot threads. Yet, he like Levitz, killed off some important characters i.e. Rond Vidar/Green Lantern, R. J. Brande, and Karate Kid II. These might very well been significant deaths. Johns also added Gates to the Retroboot Legion, which was a big plus. Too bad Gates got so little time in the Legion before he was exiled off the Legion Lost series.

I agree that Levitz failed realize some of the potential for the Legion that Johns developed. Levitz was quick to take things back to "normal" or at least where he had left things in the 1980's. If Levitz had seriously utilized Johns' plot threads in his book, besides the Black Witch/Blok subplot, fans might have enjoyed a revitalized Legion instead of a cancelled one.

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786557 09/06/13 05:53 AM
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Johns also took the - IMHO - wise decision to have 'his' Legion based on the status quo after Crisis on Infinite Earths ie before the deaths of Mon-El, Emerald Empress, Quislet going back to Teal etc.

The Levitz era up to Magic Wars was for me on the whole a period of poor decisions by the writer and one which Johns was right to ignore.

As soon as Levitz came back the dynamic changed as he set about getting his end-of-Magic Wars status quo back by writing out M-E Lad, Quislet, XS, Night Girl etc. With the new 52, replacing the Lost characters with unloved Academy newbies just added to the sense of throwing out all of Johns' work.

In the seventies and a lot of the eighties, I was a great fan of Levitz as Legion writer. But after Superboy and Supergirl were pulled from Legion history Levitz seemed to lose his Legion mojo. Were the two events related or had Levitz just told all the stories he had to tell? who knows, but his recent return to the Legion has got to be classed as a failure.

Not everyone is a fan of Johns but he sells and his Legion had the impetus to sell well. Shame it never happened apart from a few Adventure back-ups.


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Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786570 09/06/13 08:43 AM
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Meh. Put me solidly in the "not liking Johns" camp. I know his stuff sells well, and lots of people like his whole "let's make everything superficially resemble the early 1980s but with lots more blood and gore" approach to comics, but really it's not for me. And I think things like playing fast and loose with continuity (Karate Kid is alive but Jeckie is Sensor Girl?) and grafting the raison d'etre of the postboot Legion onto the retroboot team pretty much doomed this incarnation from the beginning.

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786571 09/06/13 09:22 AM
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I'm with Eryk.

Over the last 10 years, Johns' bad habits have increasingly outweighed his good ones on most his work.

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786572 09/06/13 09:23 AM
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^ er, but just to be clear, Levitz run has been pretty awful. It started out "meh" and gradually became weak and then pure crap.

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786573 09/06/13 09:38 AM
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Johns brought the Post-boot Legion back from Limbo so, of the two, he gets my vote.

Levitz, on the other hand, quickly eliminated XS from the Pre-boot Legion and let the title basically flounder. Now, in all fairness, I get the feeling that a lot of that was imposed upon him by DC's editorial demons from Hell. Having said that; only Johns and Levitz were tagged for this poll so only Levitz gets the blame.

Long live the Legion

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786574 09/06/13 09:42 AM
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As I've stated before elsewhere Johns is a horribly frustrating writer for me, because his early stuff (JSA especially) is so, so good compared to his more current endeavours. Lo3W and his brief run of Adventure backups really straddles this line for me. Some of the character moments are great, and he really shows affection for most of the cast, HOWEVER, he doesn't do much to advance them in any way (See the Wildfire/Dawnstar rehash and stagnation). He's also a victim of getting too attached to his own bad ideas. The Prime/Trapper stuff was not good, and I didn't have warm fuzzies about the "Mekt Twin" plot (though we'll never know now).

It was also, I think, a matter of time before his penchant for ultra-violence seeped into the Legion, and that would have been a bad scene.

I honestly think John's best work came earlier on because he had an editor to reign him in a little. Since he's become his own creative director, he just shows little restraint and his work suffers for it.

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Georgehaze #786577 09/06/13 10:16 AM
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I think that killing Rond Vidar & R J Brande negates any positives for Geoff Johns. The Lightning Saga was just an extended exercise to bring Wally West back. And Legion of Three Worlds to bring back Kon-el.

Originally Posted by Georgehaze
Johns brought the Post-boot Legion back from Limbo so, of the two, he gets my vote.

Levitz, on the other hand, quickly eliminated XS from the Pre-boot Legion and let the title basically flounder. Now, in all fairness, I get the feeling that a lot of that was imposed upon him by DC's editorial demons from Hell. Having said that; only Johns and Levitz were tagged for this poll so only Levitz gets the blame.

Long live the Legion


And who's DC's "Chief Creative Officer"? Geoff Johns.

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786585 09/06/13 11:33 AM
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[snip]

Originally Posted by Brody27
...Long time characters were killed off or retired and lame new replacements took center stage. Worse, the stories themselves went nowhere and there was no forward thrust to the Legion...


It's really not necessary to insult the very idea of new characters this way. Frankly, I thought the newer characters had a lot of potential that was never realized because DC's modern-day policy seems to be "content be damned," or "let 'em eat big sexy splash pages," or what have you. To develop a character, they need room for a narrative. Modern-day books just don't have that room, and what little they have seems to be largely devoted to plugging Big Events. (See the pointless and deeply uninteresting 30th Century Green Lantern subplot, which was a blatant attempt to cash in on a movie that wasn't even a success in the first place.)

The two things I enjoyed most this time out were the Academy Stories and the way Saturn Queen was depicted.

Frankly, from what I saw of Legion of Three Worlds, the Legion were largely window dressing for something else, albeit very nicely drawn window dressing. I also wasn't really interested in seeing Rond Vidar and RJ Brande killed off. Wow. Let's kill off some family (or honorary) family members for cheap drama. How original. How edgy.

I'd read it if somebody else was picking up the tab. Otherwise, I don't think that I'd bother.

Last edited by cleome47; 09/06/13 11:35 AM.

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Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Cobalt Kid #786598 09/06/13 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
^ er, but just to be clear, Levitz run has been pretty awful. It started out "meh" and gradually became weak and then pure crap.


Agreed. Levitz may have been handed lemons, but then he made... er, something pretty awful tasting made out of lemons. wink

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786599 09/06/13 03:16 PM
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didn't like John's effort.

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Eryk Davis Ester #786600 09/06/13 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Eryk Davis Ester
Originally Posted by Cobalt Kid
^ er, but just to be clear, Levitz run has been pretty awful. It started out "meh" and gradually became weak and then pure crap.


Agreed. Levitz may have been handed lemons, but then he made... er, something pretty awful tasting made out of lemons. wink


yes. And also his new characters smacked of the Super Friends cartoon. That just made me furious in this day and age ... New York has Asian people right? He must have met some! wink

... and I highly doubt they are all into dragons and playing bells and talking about their rich history.

Didn't this man give us Jacques Foccart? Leaps and bounds ahead of these ... I can't even call them stereotypes ...

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786601 09/06/13 03:30 PM
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I was all about, and still am, Superman and the Legion of Super Heroes. One of the best Legion stories ever.

Legion of Three Worlds ... not so much. Not bad, not great, just a lot of action and well drawn but ... I didn't want to hug it or anything.

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786602 09/06/13 03:31 PM
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Legion of Three Worlds was only *scripted* by GJohns? (according to Wikipedia).

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786603 09/06/13 03:35 PM
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yet he is the chief creative officer? is the bureaucracy wagging the failing comic book company! laugh

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786643 09/06/13 07:15 PM
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Lightning Saga was a great start, with solid characterization and a genuine mystery to keep the reader's attention.

Superman and the Legion was OK, but let's face it: the whole Earth xenophobia thing came out of left field, making the entire premise of the story weak.

Legion of Three Worlds was, IMO, a brainless gore fest whose only redeeming value was George Perez's art.

Levitz's v6 run was ruined by several things, Earth-Man as a member being the worst (but the continued xenophobia and GL subplots certainly didn't help matters).

V7 was so uninspired that I can't even recall anything about what happened in the first 15 or so issues (and that was just last year)! The addition of characters nobody wanted or liked and the loss of several fan favorites to the dreck that was Legion Lost didn't help matters any.

To review: Johns started on a high note and got progressively worse, while Levitz started on a low note and never went anywhere. So when it comes to Johns vs. Levitz (3rd stint), I would have to go with "none of the above."


First comic books ever bought: A DC four-for-47-cents grab bag that included Adventure #331. The rest is history.
Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #786647 09/06/13 07:38 PM
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Yeah, I got nothing on this Levitz vs. Johns stuff.

Levitz at least *used* to be a great Legion writer, and made an attempt at living up the franchise. Johns at least *tried* to use his popularity to revitalize a flagging franchise, even if he didn't quite get it.

Neither of them are super-villains, IMO.

The fanbase has been needlessly fragmented by terrible decisions dating all the way back to Crisis on Infinite Earths, and nobody has yet found the magic bullet to fix it. Indeed, every 'magic bullet' attempted thus far seems to have killed off more of the fanbase that remains...

Editorial mandate seems to be that the 30th/31st century has to remain shackled to whatever nonsense is going on in the 21st century, making the Legion setting a perpetual victim to creative shakeups happening there. Until the Legion can stand on its own feet, and not be thrown into discontinuity every time Superman gets a hangnail or Booster Gold gets a new series or Geoff Johns kills off the Green Lantern Corps again, and yet still, like the pre-Crisis Justice Society of Earth 2, be allowed to interact with mainstream DC continuity (getting all the advantages of a shared universe, and none of the downsides, which worked fine for *decades* pre-Crisis), I suspect this row will remain un-hoe-able.



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Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #787531 09/15/13 03:33 PM
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Well, opinions and arseholes and all that, but...

I don't think Johns had a strong approach to the Legion. I think he likes the Legion because it's a DC property that factored into some of his favorite stories, but i don't think he understands what makes the franchise work, or tick.

Instead, I think he applied the same sensibility and philosophy he's used with heroes like the JSA and Superman and Hawkman and even Aquaman. Namely: not just a reverence for, but an obsession with, the past.

This, I think, is in direct opposition to the nature of the Legion, and what need be done with the team.

Everything about "Legion of Three Worlds" was regressive. It was a greatest hits album.

But if we want the Legion to be popular, we need something that puts them on the map, we need something that highlights what makes them unique, and special, and relevant. And recapitulating a bunch of old stories - most of them not even Legion-related - from DC's Silver and Modern ages is not the way to do that.

Levitz wasn't much better. He tried to focus on new characters (presumably editorial fiat), but his style was undeniably old school. Dry, humorless, obsessed with minutiae, shallow in its character work, and completely uninterested in structuring story to be exciting.

But Levitz didn't 'ruin' anything Johns did. They had different problems, but they are both ill fits for the franchise.

Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #787571 09/15/13 11:23 PM
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I liked Johns's Legion work. I didn't care for "Lightning Saga", but I thought "Superman and the LSH" was spot-on, great characterization. Polar Boy and Brainiac 5 were played perfectly, IMHO, and I liked the re-imagining of the Subs. I thought the expansion of the reject-villains' powers was reasonable as well.

I also liked "Legion of Three Worlds." The death of R.J. Brande was a fitting call-back to the Legion's founding, Kon-El and Bart Allen were both associated with the Legion, so I have no problem using the Legion to bring them back, and has there been a Legion scene more bad-ass than Dawnstar telling Mordru, "You're in our way. Move."? (Only one I can think of is Brainy's defiant "Ha!" to the Time Trapper in LSH v2 # 50.) The villains were used consistent with their histories as well (especially Universo).

Johns really set up a lot of potential storylines for the next Legion writer to pick up, and I thought they all had potential. Levitz ignored them all. I'll choose Johns in this discussion.


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Re: Geoff Johns v. Paul Levitz
Brody27 #787731 09/18/13 04:39 PM
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My lasting memories of Legion of 3 Worlds

- Superman has never been so stupid as when he wants to "redeem" a person who has an huge body count to his name. He must realise that not long into the next issue.

- It's mostly a very, very long fight scene. The pretty art is distracting.

- Sodam Yat is possibly the only character to outwimp recent Superman depictions. He has seemingly spent centuries sitting crying to himself out of self pity.

- The reasoning for the return of Bart Allen was among the most preposterous bits of convoluted nonsense I can recall reading.

- The art was lovely.

- It was a shame to see Mysa Nal once again reduced to being abused and chained up by Mordru. It was part of the 5YG but part of a bigger arc than that.

I quite liked Superman and the Legion. Xenophobia has been with the Legion since the days of it's first Durlan. I'm sure I read a reference to it in the 5YG too, so it's been there throughout every now and again.

Not Johns or Levitz bashing, just what I remember form it after a reread a couple of years back.


"...not having to believe in a thing to be interested in it and not having to explain a thing to appreciate the wonder of it."

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