Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Oh Yeah, That Forum: The Titans DC's TT: Does the left hand know what the right hand is doing?

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Someone please explain to me how we have a relaunch (and a pretty good one, IMHO) of Teen Titans including a TV series etc. in which two of the main characters (Kon & Tim) continue to appear as if nothing has happened. In the meantime, Kon is off in the 31st Century in the Legion and Tim has "retired" as Robin in his own title and been replaced by someone else (a female!)

Huh? How do you expalin that? Are they going to eliminate Kon & Tim from TT? This makes no sense to me. HELP!!!!!

Apparently girl-Robin will take Tim's place.

As for Kon, the whole reasoning they're giving for keeping him around in Legion is that they can't return him to his exact moment of departure yet (which I suspect is still in the DCU's future). They'll probably mindwipe him or something too like they did with Clark, so we won't even notice when we reach the point he was taken from in the present day.

But don't you find that a bit contrived? Hardly seems like a good idea to mess with their new Teen title this way.

The whole book's contrived after the mess of tearing apart what was there. One more thing's not going to make a difference.

I dropped it early on anyway - I wasn't enjoiying where Johns was taking the characters (esp Impulse & Kon. And giving Cassie a lasso was a bad move)

Wow, I couldn't diasagree more.

I love the all-new, all-well-read Kid Flash. The cute sweet ditzy thing was played out.

Cassie's dangerous lasso is a fun new toy.

And Kon... I've never liked Kon so much as I do in TEEN TITANS... especially when McKone's drawing him. Hubba.

Impluse hadn't been "cute sweet ditzy" for a while now (with the possible exception of the "set a new record for the number of characters I can mischaracterise"isms of Crapuation Day and the first few TT issues. He was first regressed, then changed out of all recognition.). Certainly not since OWAW (go on - read YJ 55 and tell me the Impulse there was "cute sweet ditzy"). And if you said "Kid Flash" in public you'd be arrested.

And let's just say we couldn't disagree more and leave it there. And Hulk-Kon looks ridiculous.

I'm willing to leave it at "couldn't disagree more".

TEEN TITANS is one of my top 5 titles right now. You don't read it anymore. That's about as "couldn't disagree more" as we can get.

I am so torn on Teen Titans!

There are lots of things I really hate about this series... but for some reason I can't help but enjoy every issue (well, except for that JLA one) and since they all end on such a cliffhanger I'm always left looking forward to the next one!

Most of my problems revolve around how Johns has been writing Starfire and the Young Justice characters but I'm really happy with the plots we've been given so far. And I LOVE the art, including Superboy's new look.

And any thoughts I had of dropping this book went completely out the window when I found out who he's bringing back in year 2...

BUMBLEBEE!!!

Mal and Karen are my 2 favourite Titans ever so any book that has them in is definitely on my pull-list!

After taking an issue or two to warm up, I have to say that I really like Teen Titans right now. It's the best Titans book in ages, and I think John's has done a tremendous job taking care of the YJ characters after they were yanked away from PAD.

Graduation Day was so horrible, that it almost left me not willing to like this series, but there is just too much to like. Raven and Jericho, great characterization of Deathstroke and Rose moving along as a character. Robin well written, as well as Cyborg and Gar (although I wish he'd be called 'Changeling' again--I mean, c'mon...), and Cassie has been very well done too.

I really like Bart as Kid Flash too, I have to agree with Lash, Impulse was just getting to be too boring for me, the 'coolness' effect wore off to where I didn't even care what happened to him anymore. As Kid Flash, with his new emphasis on reading and gaining knowledge, I have a renewed interest in the character.

I only hope John's continues to warm up to the characters and gives Kory some more time, but I have a feeling that is gonna happen anyway. The art is great too.

In other words, I reccomend this title to everyone who hasn't given it a try yet, or was too disgusted with Graduation Day to pick up the early issues.

i'll second you there, Lash !!!

Matthew.

TT has become one of the issues I MOST look forward to receiving. I hated Kon prior to this, had no interest in Tim as Robin, didn't like Cassie since she couldn't replace Donna in my book, and thought that Bart was about as stupid and annoying as any comic book character I had ever come across.

Don't know why I picked it up when it was launched. Maybe because of the hype, maybe nostalgia for my other favorite youth group from long ago (The Fab Five) but I've really enjoyed the stories from the start. Surpisingly I've even found something to like about each of these characters that I loathed before.

That's why I'm annoyed that they're messing with Kon & Tim. It will likely impact TT and its chemistry.

I'm buying the Teen Titans book, and really like it! Johns has a definite love of the characters, and has progressed the YJ kids well. I like the new and improved Bart/Kid Flash!

That said, I hate that Jericho is now insane and the whole "Kon has DNA from both Superman and Lex Luthor". Wha?????? I thought it was already established that former Cadmus Project Director (Westfield?) had contributed his DNA when they could match Superman's... "Somebody's got some 'splainin' to do!"

I absolutely hated Graduation Day! Talk about senseless!! And I associate Outsiders with the bad taste in my mouth I got from Grad Day. There is no other reason for Nightwing and Arsenal to be in Outsiders instead of TT except they are more "dark and brooding" since Donna died. I'm following/buying Outsiders but I miss the old version (BATO). I liked them all, but I have no reason to care about any of the new characters in Outsiders: Grace, Thunder (when the hell did Jeff have a kid?), the psuedo-Metamorpho (what a stupid idea that was!), and Indigo. So what? I've followed Jade worse places (I actually bought the first issue of the Bloodpack mini because she was in it...but it also had a Legion tie in: a magazine cover on a coffee table had the Legion logo).

IMHO, Teen Titans is great stuff! Changeling and Cyborg are written perfectly, and I hope to see their roles grow as they mentor the newer kids. And the art is freakin' fantastic!

I like Young Just... err, I mean... Teen Titans well enough, but I do feel that some of Geoff's ideas for the characters, while interesting enough, don't necessarily follow logically from where they've been.

"Kid Flash", for instance, did not continue on from where Bart ended up at the end of his series. He had grown up alot during the period where he thought Carol was dead, and then he traveled into the future, and the time when Max "died". Yet at the beginning of this series, you wouldn't have known that he had ever had that growth.

And then there's Kon. While throwing in the Luthor angle makes his new origin interesting, I think that Donna Troy showed that tweaking people's origins for no good reason isn't always wise. Besides, it's a little too "Young and the Restless" for me, although I do kinda smirk when I think of Kon as being the love child of Superman and Lex Luthor

I don't care for what's been happening with Jericho. We've just had one too many good guys gone bad lately for my tastes. If they were going to go to all of the trouble of bringing Joey back in some form, I would have preferred that he had regained his heroism somehow.

Changeling has disappointed me a little in that he seems to have regressed, not only in character but in age as well. I was a little surprised at this, since it was Geoff that helped Gar grow up in his mini-series. Now he's being written as he was in the early days of the New Teen Titans. It's not a HUGE deal to me, but I'm a little disappointed about that.

And although it's not fair to pre-judge a character I haven't seen yet, I have no interest in this new Robin-ette. I have liked Tim's run as Robin, and am very disappointed that he's retiring. And I like Spoiler well enough, but I like her as Spoiler... not as the "Girl Wonder".

Oh well... I still like the series better than some of the titles I collect, and it's much better than Outsiders, which I plan to drop at any time now, so I guess it's not all bad

I agree about Robin-ette. What the hell is DC thinking?

The third Robin is arguably the best Bat-move that DC made during the entire 90's. Jason Todd was not well liked, and was killed for it. But this new Robin was cool- he was smart and a great detective, and had to work to become Robin. He didn't have Dick's acrobat training, and recognized that he could never match Dick as Robin, so concentrated on his own strengths. Tim Drake is the character that made Robin cool and fun again, which is why he got his own title. And he is a likable kid, and was throughout all of Chuck Dixon's run, even though the later issues weren't that good.

Robin-ette? Not only is that annoying for Robin readers, it's annoying for Titans readers. And Batman readers. And others. Ick!

The new Robin is definitely going to be Stephanie/The Spoiler?

I like her.

And I have a feeling it won't be too terribly long before Tim's back in action.

Cru, I don't remember Impulse's personal growth from his own series reflected much in YJ, so Johns gets a buy there. I will agree about the seeming regression of Garfield. Maybe being back with his old crew is bringing out his old personality.

And I ***KNEW*** it wouldn't be long before Johns brought in Bumblebee, Mal and probably ALL of TITANS WEST. YES YES YES YES YES!!!! Now find some way to revive Lilith!

That's why I couldn't really *love* Wolfman's run... he hated too many characters I loved (ike Duela Dent).

As excited as I am about seeing Mal and Karen (and apparently Duela too, MLLASH) brought back I can't help but be reminded of how we all clamoured for the return of Lilith over on DC's Titans boards a while ago. And how excited we all were when they finally did bring her back!

... and then look what happened!

We all need to join up at Geoff John's site and tell him not to kill off any more old Titans!

Just for Lashie Poo



Edited cuz I found a better scan, I think

OH MY!!! I've never seen that image before! THANKS, Cru!

(see, now PEREZ I really love-- he fought to have Duela included in some fashion back in NTT 50 (Donna's wedding).

He was DA MAN then and he's DA MAN now!!!

It may sound nuts, but JLA/TITANS scribes Devin Grayson and Phil Jiminez won a major fan in me when they included Duela in that miniseries.

Last we saw of her, Johns was using her as a villainess. Hopefully he's thought better of it and got the gal a little medication before he uses her (fingers crossed!) in TEEN TITANS!

MAN, how I love TEEN TITANS # 44-53 (the 70s revival featuring the characters pictured above).

Ummm... Is that a black Guardian I see up there?

Bleagh, I don't like it at all. First of all, I hate the look. Mike McKone may have improved a lot since "World Without Grownups", but I still dislike the way he draws the teens. Also, I dislike the new designs for the YJ, which I think are three steps down from the way they looked in Young Justice.

As for the writing, I don't like it either. Geoff's handling of teens was so-so in Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.S, and, if anything, is worse here. Also, he seems a bit retcon happy (Superboy's Origin, Cyborg's powers, Impulse's "you're the girl that made me notice girls") and a bit too willing to set the characters back development-wise, in order to build them up the way he wants. Also, neither the characters or the overall feel is fun, IMO, something very important to me in teen books.

That's Mal Duncan, who joined the team in their late 60s/early 70s original run during the brief period they ditched their costumes and did super-heroics in street clothes.

He was brought back in issue 44 (first issue of the mid-70s revival) but wasn't deemed worthy by Dr. Light to kidnap when he kidnapped Robin, Speedy, Kid Flash and Wonder Girl.

So Mal donned that exoskeleton and costume of the Guardian on display in Titans HQ and proceeded to track Dr. Light down and give him the what-for.

Unfortunately, that guise only lasted 1 issue. The next issue, Mal was back in his street clothes.

Soon after, he won a magical horn after beating the Angel of Death in a wrestling match (I'm not making this up!) and donned the unfortunate guise of The Hornblower.

MAN, those were the days. The Titans were HQ'ed in a DISCO, man! Good times...!

It's been a while since I reread those issues... I'm thinking Mal may have later ditched the Hornblower guise after losing the Gabriel Horn and returned to the guise of The Guardian for the final few issues.

Of course, I think the original origin of the Hornblower was retconned in the late 80s/early 90s. I'm thinking that Gabriel's Horn was now a device that was created, either by Mal or Karen or in a lab somewhere. I think the whole Angel of Death Smackdown origin is gone.

This would be the same time that Golden Eagle was tranformed into a surfer dude, who lacked direction and employability, and that Bat-Girl became the bitchy, airheaded Flamebird.

Not a good time for Titans, IMHO.

I think my main problem with this version of the Titans is that, like the Jurgens era, this just doesn't feel like the Titans to me. It feels like Young Justice... with guest stars.

To me, this is the Titans:



And this is the Titans:



It's not about having A Robin, or A Wonder Girl or A Kid Flash. To me, the Titans are Donna Troy... and Dick Grayson. More than anything else, those two are the heart and soul of the Titans, and no line up has ever felt right without them.

The Titans stopped being DC's "teen team" a long time ago. To me, they became a Justice League of Their Own. Young Justice became the new teen book, and that's how I wish things had stayed.

But then, I've always been a little stuck in the past

Spellbinder - I totally agree with you and I know how you feel!

When this series was announced I was dreading it.

When I saw that it was going to focus on the YJ characters I was furious. "THEY ARE NOT TITANS!" I fumed. I was sure that this was the end for the Titans as I knew it, that the rich 40-plus years of Titans history would be forgotten and I would be reading a Young Justice book with a Titans logo on the cover. And, with the exception of a handful (none of whom are in the new series), the Young Justice characters are characters that I have never been interested in - despite (or probably because of) all of DC's attempts to push their 'kewlness' in my face!

But fortunately, Geoff Johns has surprised me. This book has so far been extraordinarily rich in Titans history. With Beast Boy, Cyborg and Starfire in starring roles, the return of Raven imminent, the appearance of old foes like Deathstroke, Brother Blood, Mammoth and Gizmo, developing storylines for Jericho and Rose Wilson, mentionings of Shimmer, Arella, Trigon and Wintergreen, and (most importantly to me) a few pages spotlighting all the much-missed deceased members, there has been a ton of Titans stuff to keep this long-time fan happy!

And it made me realise something - this is a hell of a lot more recognition than the pre-Wolfman/Perez years got when they restarted the title. With the exception of brief appearances by Speedy and Aqualad you would never have know that there had even been 53 issues of a Titans title before that one! Not that I'm complaining - I still consider Wolfman/Perez's run on this book to be the best its ever been - but I'm just putting things in perspective.

Having said all that, this series is not without some serious flaws! Who exactly are these people I'm reading about? Johns' characterizations for nearly every single character is completely 'off'. Its as if he just thought up some personality 'types' he wanted for the team and then forced everyone to comform to them, no matter what growth or development they've been given elsewhere. "Cyborg's finally healed and a human? Screw that, I want an angsty robot on the team again! Superboy has matured and grown over the years? Too bad, I need a cocky, arrogant jock in this comic! Wonder Girl's gotten over her insecurity and power-issues? Not any more!..." It is really frustrating reading.

But for now I'm going to hope that this is just Johns settling into the characters. After all this is the first time he's written many of them, right? Hopefully with time he'll be able to capture their 'voices' better.

In the meantime I'm going to continue to enjoy what is unquestionably a much better comic than the previous Titans series was, and look forward to seeing the return of Mal and Karen... and hopefully even Lilith, Dick and Donna one day too!