Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities My Big-Ass Pile o'Trades Waiting To Be Read At My Whim

Agreed 100% on both the Don Newton Batman (Newton's my "comfort-food" Batman artist, and thankfully he was never called up to draw anything genuinely disturbing) and the Englehart Dr. Strange (although, as I said in another thread, Englehart was gearing up for his grandest Dr. Strange epic yet, a time travel arc, when he abruptly quit Marvel; just thought I'd forewarn you, Lardy.)

Your criticisms of the FF story which introduced Galactus are valid. I personally prefer the story which introduced the Inhumans, and would be curious why that one didn't do much for you, either. As for Kirby's art, he's always been an acquired taste, although Joe Sinnott inked most of the stories in that volume and I think he made Kirby's art smoother and more attractive than other inkers. If you didn't care for those issues, I don't think you'd like other Lee & Kirby FF stories. To each their own, as the saying goes.

I guess the key word in my review is "disappointed". It's not that the stories were bad, per se, but they didn't really come close to living up to my expectations. The Inhumans story was decent, but I there was little done to reconcile Medusa's history with the Frightful Four. I mean, she was a pretty vicious and villainous member in the prior arc. But supposedly, she did it all to run away from Maximus?!? That's all we get there.

I suppose some of it is my definite bias toward the Bronze Age in general and Byrne's FF run in particular. And I didn't hate Kirby's art, but I'm beginning to think his true innovations were with the New Gods from a design standpoint.

I just hope my Bronze Age bias isn't so bad that I won't enjoy my upcoming revisit of Lee/Ditko/Romita Amazing Spider-Man as much as I hope to.

It's all right, Lardy. Not every ground-breaking work holds up for every reader, especially when it's nearly 50 years later, and other creators have refined the raw original in the interim.

And for what it's worth, I personally was very disappointed in Kirby's entire Fourth World saga.

As for Silver Age Spidey, that was an entirely different aesthetic, which may be more to your liking.

Popping in--hi, everyone, been so busy, hope next week is start of more relaxed schedule for posting--to say quickly:

Considering your disappointment of the Kirby / Lee FF issues you read, there's a good chance you won't find many other of their FF stories any more enjoyable as Fanfie says. The one exception is their last truly great story, the Thing / Skrulls story in the #90's which runs about 5 issues. It's the most like the Bronze Age in structure and tone, besides just being genuinely awesome.

Englehart in the 70's was the man, and anything he touched was truly gold! I've only ever read these Doc Strange stories once, about 20 years ago, but I loved them.

I also love Don Newton Batman, but honestly never connected him to these stories until Lardy pointed it out a few months ago. I love the Hugo Strange / Ruppert Thorne story, and I am batshit crazy for the very first Killer Croc story -- and I think he did those? (Or contributed?). I always thought of them as Gerry Conway's great Batman stories. He drew a great Catwoman too in that awesome gown costume.

Looking forward to eventually trying out Bandette!

Hi, Cobie! Nice to finally see you back here! I've got my fingers crossed that next week turns out as you hope.

Off the top of my head, I do know that Don Newton did not draw the first Killer Croc story. I think it was drawn by a young Dan Jurgens.

And as for later Lee/Kirby FF, I've always had a sentimental spot for the issues circa 81-85, where Crystal joins the team and she and the FF battle it out against Maximus and the traitorous Inhumans who had been introduced in a Hulk annual.

Yeah, I read Amazing Fantasy 15 and Amazing Spidey #1 today and wasn't disappointed in the least. It's clearly NOT a Bronze Age bias but a case of apples and oranges and me clearly preferring the taste of one over the other. I'm gonna read at least thru this first Masterworks edition (which goes thru ASM 10). I now have the first 8 Masterworks, so I'll eventually read thru ASM 77, though probably not straight all the way through so I can savor them. I'm very much looking forward to it, now that my palate has been primed.



Well LOOK who the cat finally dragged back in! 'Bout effin' TIME!!!



Again, "disappointment" doesn't equal "hate". I may still read more some day. It's weird, though, how Byrne can be so reverential toward Lee and Kirby's run but somehow connect so much better with me. It doesn't hurt at all that Byrne wrote Sue and the Reed/Sue dynamic as a modern woman and couple so much better than Stan and Jack did. There was a lot of cringeworthy interaction between the two with Sue doing a lot of hand-wringing and Reed acting chauvinistically calling her "Woman!" and the like. I know it was a different time, but I didn't appreciate that at all.

Truthfully, it makes me hesitant to check out some of the legendary Silver and Bronze Age Thor runs for fear that Walt Simonson may have similarly spoiled me for them. I'm curious, though, if there's a similar batch of pre-Simonson Thor (maybe a 10-12 issue stretch?) that you'd recommend I give a whirl to test the waters.



Anyone who says otherwise, I might have to rassle!



Unfortunately, none of those stories appear in this volume! I hope DC does a Volume 2, but I'm doubtful. I remember the Hugo Strange/Boss Thorne plotline from my childhood and never got to see its conclusion. I know now it was a sequel to what Englehart and Rogers did with the characters (which I have a TPB of) which makes me ache to read them again and experience the ending!



I think you'll dig it!

That you would feel that way shows how far we've come, in my opinion. For me, it's unpleasant, but it's something I can live with, keeping in mind that it was a different time.



The first pre-Simonson Thor arc that came to my mind was the Eternals Saga, although that one runs about 20 issues and is collected into two trades. Lots of cosmic goodness there, although there's also a lot of continuity porn.

And my favorite Lee/Kirby Thor arc is when Thor rescues Hercules from Pluto. I can't remember the exact issues ATM, but I'll look them up later.

But that was the time and for most, it went right by as normal or those that felt it wasn't as it should, kept it to themselves.

Not really all that much different today I think.

I had a guy in a meeting say he was talking to me "man to man." A meeting of professional men and women and I was the only one who called him out on it and I took and am taking grief from the lot, men AND women. These are teachers! As an Engineer, it would have been corrected immediately if not by a male, then by any females present.

Lardy, I looked it up: the Lee/Kirby Thor issues are 124-130, reprinted in Marvel Masterworks: The Mighty Thor Volume 4.

Kirby's Thor is a lot different than Kirby's FF to me, but then again, I've been looking at both of these two runs with intense, detailed-oriented eyes since I was about 9 years old. You may find them to be too similar in your eyes.

That being said, I also recommend Fanfie's suggested 124-130. I even like the next slew of issues even better, which introduce Evo the Living Planet, the Recorder, the High Evolutionary, etc. Those issues are among my favorite stories ever, Thor or otherwise.

My all-time favorite Thor story is the original Mangog story by Kirby that took place near the end of his run. It ran in Thor #154-157. Again, I'm not sure whether you'd love it, but I find it to be the ultimate epic, Kirby Thor story.

Lastly, in regards to our man Don Newton, it's difficult for me to remember which stories he drew, only that he participated in an era that I really love for Batman. For example, I love those Nocturna / Night-Slayer stories (perhaps my #1 favorite pre-Crisis Batman stories of all!), and I can almost swear Newton did some of the issues while Gene Colan did the others. But I just can't remember anymore.

I think he also did a great Joker story around this time that was IMO the first really good Joker story in years as the character began to get more serious...but before he became "the ultimate evil" version we've had from the mid-late 80's onward.

As I mentioned in my review in the "Hulk" thread the other day, Wasp/Giant Man was pretty awful too over in Tales to Astonish. I'd say even worse than Reed/Sue. It is a sign of the times, but even then there were better female depictions than that, so it's really on Lee.

In the one episode where Wasp actually does something, there's an apologetic editor's note at the end saying they did that only to shut up the complainers.

Lee could have done himself a world of good if he'd gone into therapy, like his rival Mort Weisinger.

Cobie, Lardy, I did some research: Don Newton drew most of the Detective Comics issues from 483 to 520, followed by most of the Batman issues from 352 through 379; and he did, indeed, draw the Hugo Strange/Rupert Thorne story by Gerry Conway, who passed the writing baton to Doug Moench shortly thereafter.

Though I like the "Tales of the Batman" series of trades/hardcovers spotlighting particular creators (such as Len Wein, Don Newton, Gene Colan, Alan Davis and Carmine Infantino off the top of my head) in the '60s, '70s & '80s, there are sometimes missing parts of stories, such as the first part of that story where Batgirl got shot I mentioned in the Newton book. Most egregiously, the Alan Davis book only reprints part one of "Batman: Year Two" because Todd Macfarlane did the other four chapters. It's why I won't buy that book unless I can find it dirt cheap, even though I really want to read his other stories with Mike W. Barr.

I really wish DC would just do massive omnibuses reprinting blocks of 'Tec and Batman consecutively. Even the cheap B&W Showcase editions have barely scratched the era in question.

All that said, the Len Wein Tales of the Batman book just came in today, and flipping through it, I can tell you: IT'S EFFING GORGEOUS!!!

Tragedy!

No, it's fine. I'll wait 'til you've stopped singing...

My big pile o' trades fell over when I put the Luthor Arkwright hardcover on it! So remember kids, don't put little Lone Wolf and Cub TPBs anywhere other than the top 'o yer pile.

3 mountaineers feared missing as they were scaling the pile at the time.

This has been a post sponsored by the Public Protection of Periodical Piles. For issues with any other type of piles, it's suggested you consult a doctor.

Can't wait to read your review of Tales of the Batman: Len Wein, Lardy.

And while my pile of trades is currently no longer a pile, but rather scattered all over the place (though, unlike Thoth's pile, it didn't happen by accident, but rather by design), I would like to mention one notable addition I've made, courtesy of the library:

ALL FOUR VOLUMES OF COLLEEN DORAN'S "A DISTANT SOIL"!

Though I've always liked Colleen as both an artist and a person, I'm ashamed to admit I have never before read her magnum opus.

There's a short but sweet ADS thread here in the Dr. Gym'll's forum, and I'll be posting reviews there sometime within the week.

The Table of Contents of the Len Wein book doesn't credit each artist to each story like previous "Tales" editions, but Don is listed among the blanket list of artists on the title page. At the very least it includes 'Tec #514, "Haven", an offbeat story I recall from my childhood. Again, I really hope they do a Volume 2 on Newton.

I REALLY wanna read that Strange/Thorne story, though!



I haven't read the Colan book yet, but I seem to recall mentions of a Nocturna flipping through it. Is that character at all associated with the big vampire cult story that the Colan book features?

I think he also did a great Joker story around this time that was IMO the first really good Joker story in years as the character began to get more serious...but before he became "the ultimate evil" version we've had from the mid-late 80's onward.[/quote]

Here's the only Newton Joker story I could find:



The Wein book includes a gorgeous Simonson-drawn Joker story, which may also be the one you thought of.

Pretty surprising and disappointing for a company which often gets credit for bringing a modern, sophisticated sensibility to comics when they set the Silver Age on fire.

I will be very eager to read your review. Since Colleen recently completed ADS, it would be high time for me to discover it as well!



thoth, I read LW&C Vol. 1 last year and enjoyed it a lot! I own Vol. 2 and will probably circulate it into the Pile when the mood hits. Have you read any yet? I'm curious about your thoughts on it. I reviewed Vol. 1 here in a manga thread somewhere.

On LW&C: I read little bits of it, when it was being published by an Indy (checks... First Comics). It's one that I didn't want to spoil by reading it out of sequence. I've had this trade sitting around for years, but never got round to reading it. I'll certainly comment on it when I do, probably on the review thread if I can;t find the manga one.

On Davis & Barr: I did a bit of scurrying around when I got my first Davis Batman & the Outsiders book. I had read an issue with Aparo drawing it, and don't think I went back. But with Davis, I was willing to cut it some more slack.

On Bats: I came across a few Gene Colan Batman issues. I got rid of nearly all my Batman comics years ago, so I must have got these in a lot with some others. I'd forgotten how moody and atmospheric it was. Nocturna, Jason Todd and Nightslayer. as the Crisis looms.

While I don't think Marvel is totally underserving of that credit, I've come to believe that Marvel and DC were both progressive and regressive during the Silver Age, each in its own ways.

Marvel certainly gave us progressive male heroes, like the vulnerable Spider-Man, and the anti-heroes like the Hulk and the Sub-Mariner (the latter being superhero comics' original anti-hero). They brought a more down-to-earth, streetwise, irreverent sensibility to counter DC's wild-yet-still-kid-friendly metaphors and abstractions. That said, it was DC who gave us Wonder Woman, Supergirl, and the female Legionnaires. That's why I said in one of my earlier posts that Stan Lee could have done himself a world of good if he'd gone into therapy like Mort Weisinger did.

To each their own. I loved the original Outsiders, both with and without Batman, no matter who drew them. And I think Mike W. Barr generally gets a bad rap just because of his sillier villains.

The one I had was them facing off against the Cryogenic Man. Shockingly, I think it was as much the art that a found a bit meh.

If (when) I give them a reread, I'll look to the writing for some commentary.

For me, the Outsiders were an interesting concept (something that Justice League Elite would try for as a comparison years later). Also the concept of Batman having his own league that later writers (Morrison) would pick up on, stated here too.

Having not read the early issues, I don;t know how much of that "outside the law" approach they took. Or how the JLA reacted to it (outside of Bats nipping into the damaged satellite later on)

Lightning and Metamorpho were ideal candidates. As everyone and their supergran got to join the League later, they still stand out. Halo had an interesting background. Katana was less of a hit partially for the same issues I have with Black Knight and Swordsman.

Batman: Kobra's shuttle has escaped. He's eluded us again.
Katana: The shuttle is empty Batman. I disemboweled the monster two pages ago.
Batman: Um....

Geoforce is a large plank of wood with spandex over it.

I've had a crush on Geo-Force since I first read the back issues of Outsiders and BATO more than 20 years ago.

To me, he's sort of like what Colossus would have been like had he been raised as royalty. Same innocence, same nobility, same basic goodness.